TiVo Suggestions in the UK - Update

[philmck]

I've sent the following to TiVoPony, I'll let you know if I get a response:

The discontinuation of the "suggestions" feature in the UK is simply unacceptable. This was one of the advertised features for which I originally purchased the service, and I expect such features to keep working for the duration of my "lifetime" subscription.

I don't accept that "this situation...was out of TiVo's control". You are responsible for dealing with your "provider", not me, and it's clearly technically possible to solve this problem, since it's quite possible to upgrade the firmware in the unit. (As it happens, I'm a software engineer who works on compatibility issues and I'm quite happy to discuss technical details.)

I would guess you actually mean it's too expensive to solve the problem, which is understandable but still appears to be a violation of the "lifetime" agreement. My unit is an unaltered unit still in operation at the original address by the original purchaser of the lifetime subscription so it's reasonable to expect the purchased features to be supported, isn't it?

[Trinitron]

But what does 'lifetime' mean?

It's accepted that if a unit fails mechanically then that's the end of its practical 'life' and the subscription ends (but there are circumstances when the sub can be transferred). So why can't the same principle apply to a software failure? The word used is 'lifetime', not 'indefinite'.

I don't particularly want to defend TiVo here, but I think trying to invoke legal arguments is doomed to failure.

[tivo525235]

As the subscription covered software development it would seem to be unreasonable to suggest a software failure could allow them to terminate the agreement without some form of compensation for the breach of contract especially when the service continues in the USA.

[Trinitron]

Except, as has previously been pointed out, the agreement does allow TiVo to vary the agreement at any time without notice. You then have the right to cancel it.

I haven't got the UK agreement to hand but clause 6 of the current US agreement states:

6. Changes to Your TiVo Service. TiVo may at its discretion and from time to time change, add, or remove features and functionality of the TiVo service or the TiVo DVR without notice.

If you are dissatisfied with any such changes to the TiVo service, you may cancel your use of the TiVo service as provided in Section 15 ("Termination of Service").

TiVo reserves the right to discontinue one, some, or all of the features of the TiVo service you receive at any time at its discretion. TiVo may at its discretion discontinue the provision of software updates to certain TiVo DVRs. This means that while other TiVo DVRs may receive continued software updates and functionality; TiVo is not required to provide such updates to your TiVo DVR.

Additionally, the level of service TiVo provides may not be the same on each TiVo DVR; a given TiVo DVR may support different features and functionality, and TiVo is under no obligation to provide all features and functionality to your TiVo DVR.

Like I said, (IMO) legal arguments are doomed to failure.

[tivo525235]

Just because it is in a contract does not make it legal.

In this case if someone has purchased a lifetime subscription then things are very different to a monthly subscription.

[Trinitron]

How is the lifetime sub so differnt? The cost of a lifetime sub equals 20 monthly subs. I would be very surprised if a court imposed penalties for breach of contract after that period when there is a clear opportunity for you to walk away from the agreement yourself.

But stranger things have happened. Why don't you try it?

[TCM2007]

Ultimately any legal argument would come down to damages based on your loss of the feature you had paid for. After 20 months, your financial loss would be zero by any means of calculating it. Your claim would therefore be for zero and void.

[Pugwash]

I don't see you getting anywhere with this. The best you can do is give your opinion of TiVo as a company and service provider and hope your comments influence your friends and family should they ever re-enter the UK market.

Rather than hold my breath, I'm busy finding alternative services to choose from. Once I settle on one I'll abandon ship.

[DeadKenny]

Originally Posted by tivo525235

Just because it is in a contract does not make it legal.

If the contract isn't legal then any commitment on their part is null and void anyway and they have no requirement to deliver the service and you have no requirement to stay subscribed.

The "law" however provides (in the UK at least) some consumer protection on the basis of fit for purpose and durability of a product. These are statutory rights that a contract cannot override.

On the other hand it would almost certainly be argued that the product was certainly fit for purpose when sold and has long since past the point of acceptable durability.

In this case if someone has purchased a lifetime subscription then things are very different to a monthly subscription.

Lifetime and monthly subs are the same contract, no difference, with the exception that a lifetime subscriber has nothing more to pay to get their service. Neither a lifetime or monthly subscriber has any more rights to the service than the other.


Frankly though I'm amazed anyone has really continued to pay a monthly sub for so long. Must have paid many times over the value of a lifetime. It's just like people who rented the same TV for a decade or more and end up paying thousands for a TV worth £100 or less!

[digital_S]

Originally Posted by DeadKenny

Lifetime and monthly subs are the same contract, no difference, with the exception that a lifetime subscriber has nothing more to pay to get their service. Neither a lifetime or monthly subscriber has any more rights to the service than the other.

Technically, I think monthly subscribers should have more options than lifetime subscribers... Mainly cause we keep on paying

Frankly though I'm amazed anyone has really continued to pay a monthly sub for so long. Must have paid many times over the value of a lifetime. It's just like people who rented the same TV for a decade or more and end up paying thousands for a TV worth £100 or less!

I get your point!
Is it actually worth getting a lifetime sub, now? No-one knows what will happen in 20 months!

[Trinitron]

Originally Posted by digital_S

Is it actually worth getting a lifetime sub, now? No-one knows what will happen in 20 months!

And how many times has that comment been posted here in the last 5 years...?

Morally, I think an acceptable solution would be for TiVo to allow monthly subscribers to switch to lifetime cover on payment of the outstanding balance (if any) + possibly a small admin fee. Of course, that would wipe out their revenue stream at a stroke, pushing the complete withdrawal from the UK market ever closer.

I once managed to do just that with Tracker, the car security people. I had a device installed on an annnual payment basis because I wasn't sure how long I would keep the car. After the first year I decided that paying for 'lifetime' cover would be ok (it was about 2.5 x the annual payment), and was gobsmacked when they deducted the amount I had already paid from the amount due!

[TrainManG]

Back to the thread, now.

Reconfigured a unit last night. Got up this morning and it had recorded a suggestion. 'England expects.'

Do they know what they're doing now?

Geoff.

[tivo525235]

Originally Posted by Pugwash

I don't see you getting anywhere with this. The best you can do is give your opinion of TiVo as a company and service provider and hope your comments influence your friends and family should they ever re-enter the UK market.

Rather than hold my breath, I'm busy finding alternative services to choose from. Once I settle on one I'll abandon ship.

I think the odds of them ever reentering the UK market with a hardware solution drop day by day. One month ago had you offered me a Series 3 Tivo I would have bitten your hand off, now I would think twice about it.

I feel that Vista Media Centre is looking like the best replacement for my needs. It just needs some sort of suggestions feature and I suppose that could be written by a third party.

[Trinitron]

One of TiVo's problems in relaunching in the UK may be the subscription model they have. Sky and other subscription based services (like Setanta) at least have a tangible 'product' in that they supply additional channels, either directly or in HD format.

We have seen Sky struggle with their Sky+ subscription to the extent that the basic service is available to their subscribers without an extra charge. All TiVo software appears to offer to the uninitiated is an advanced EPG service. Ok, it's the 'Gold Standard', as I've seen it described in the US, but will enough people want to pay £10 or whatever a month just for that. TiVo don't just need existing users to switch to an advanced service, they have to grow their subscriber base as well.

I guess we need a new entrant into the broadcasting market willing to partner with TiVo and licence their software. They have done this in the US by getting back on board with DirecTV, pity they couldn't get in with someone like Freesat over here.

[mikerr]

Best bet was at the time of the NTL/TW/Virgin merger, as tivo already has software to run on the tvdrive/v+ hardware -it's a Scientific Altanta 8300DVB
Plus all cable subscribers pay a monthly fee...

Is a tivo licence so expensive that so many manufacturers decide to roll their own instead?

Of course the Tivo PC software (Nero) is due for imminent release at $99 including a years subs ...

[Trinitron]

Originally Posted by mikerr

Is a tivo licence so expensive that so many manufacturers decide to roll their own instead?

I'm guessing it must be. Time Warner Cable use the same boxes and have opted for an in-house solution to replace the proprietary software they used to have. It has some 'TiVo-esque' features, but the interface is hard to navigate at times and leaves me despairing for my TiVo back home...

[DeadKenny]

Originally Posted by Trinitron

All TiVo software appears to offer to the uninitiated is an advanced EPG service.

I would say the "service" is just the listings data. That puts them in competition with the likes of Digiguide in the UK who are more well known in the UK anyway.

[digital_S]

Originally Posted by Trinitron

And how many times has that comment been posted here in the last 5 years...?

Quite a few, but we should know what our options are and where we stand, don't you think?

Originally Posted by TrainManG

Reconfigured a unit last night. Got up this morning and it had recorded a suggestion. 'England expects.'

Really? At least one person's box is doing something right.

[cleudo]

Originally Posted by mikerr

Is a tivo licence so expensive that so many manufacturers decide to roll their own instead?
subs ...

Quote of the week - you nailed it...

If only the marketing side of TiVo lived up to their technology....

(and who remembers the absolutely cr@p marketing campaign TiVo had when trying to sell into the UK market).

[cleudo]

I asked this before, but does anyone know if the Australian hacked listings service had suggestions running as well?

[warrenrb]

OK, just to throw this into the mix, I've had 3 suggestions record in the last few days. All are 'Roary the Racing Car' which has recorded on the 6th, 7th and today (the 9th).

With the explanation we've been given, you would think the data format has been changed and nothing would record, so what gives with this programme? I haven't done any 'thumbing' since the suggestions first broke. This programme already had 2 thumbs (my kids like it).

Is there any diagnostic info I could provide that would interest anyone here? I have access to tivoweb on my unit.

If this programme has an 'old style' 12 digit id, wouldn't others have too?

[Andy Leitch]

Originally Posted by cleudo

Quote of the week - you nailed it...

If only the marketing side of TiVo lived up to their technology....

(and who remembers the absolutely cr@p marketing campaign TiVo had when trying to sell into the UK market).

TiVo marketing seems to be from the same mould as Commodore's in the late 80's & early 90's.

It was often said that if C= had the franchise for KFC, it would be marketed as 'Lukewarm, greasy dead bird.'

So I guess that's it then? If another problem arises Tivo can hide behind that clause in the contract, which gives them free-reign to asset-strip the UK S1 functionality but still charge full price for the subs.

Tivo manangement, and I'm including you TiVoPony, you are an absolute disgrace!

[philmck]

Originally Posted by DeadKenny

I would say the "service" is just the listings data. That puts them in competition with the likes of Digiguide in the UK who are more well known in the UK anyway.

No, the TiVo T&Cs specifically state:

The TiVo service consists of program guide information and the following features: (a) Season Pass–® recording automatically finds and records every episode of a series all season long; (b) WishList® search - finds and records programs that feature your favorite actor, director, team or even topic; (c) Smart Recording - automatically detects program line-up changes for your cable/satellite provider and adjusts recording times so you don't have to worry about the details; (d) TiVo Suggestions – TiVo can be programmed to suggest and auto-record programs that may match your interests; and (e) Parental Controls – lock channels or set ratings limits based on content. Each of these features is part of the "TiVo service." The "TiVo service" means these features and any additional features and functionality of the TiVo DVR that TiVo may, at its discretion and from time to time, offer.

However, they also specifically state

TiVo reserves the right to discontinue one, some, or all of the features of the TiVo service you receive at any time at its discretion.

The latter looks unenforceable to me, since it's obviously unreasonable to withdraw the entire service having taken the money.

By the way, the reply I received was

I'm sorry that you're disappointed with the situation, however the terms of service do allow TiVo to add or remove features at it's discretion. In this case we've had to remove the TiVo Suggestions feature from the Series1 UK boxes.

[SPR]

Originally Posted by warrenrb

OK, just to throw this into the mix, I've had 3 suggestions record in the last few days. All are 'Roary the Racing Car' which has recorded on the 6th, 7th and today (the 9th).

I thumbed something up earlier in the week. It appeared in the suggestions to record that day & remained there.

Daily updates have all succeeded but this thumbed program was recorded by TiVo as a suggestion this morning!

Don't profess to understanding the intricacies of the suggestions mechanism but I didn't expect this...

I thought suggestions were gone, not just broken a bit?

[pj280167]

Just out of interest my TiVo recorded Toonattik as a suggestion on Sat 4 but nothing since.

[Pugwash]

With 0.6 of suggs.tcl mine recorded 9 showing of BBC news!

[DeadKenny]

Originally Posted by philmck

The latter looks unenforceable to me, since it's obviously unreasonable to withdraw the entire service having taken the money.

Most contracts contain unenforceable terms, which generally makes the contract null & void anyway in which case both parties can just walk away.

However it's not a case of being unenforcable, as they have said and have every right to remove a service. There's nothing to enforce, they just pull the plug. You've agreed to the contract by signing up to the service also.

Really it's a case of whether such an action infringes on your basic consumer rights and somewhere in the contract there *should* (I haven't checked) be mention of it not infringing your statutory rights.

In the UK we have rights that allow us to expect a product to be durable, i.e. last for an amount of time in working condition, typical for that kind of product.

Sadly our TiVos are likely well beyond the limit. Usually you have a right to complain if the product stops working as designed within a couple of years (regardless of what the warranty says), but rarely beyond that for gadgets.

As for monthly subs, I don't know if UK rights cover service payments, but even if they do, the best you could get out of it is a refund of £10 for the last month and agreement to either cancel the subs from then on or agree to a reduced service. TiVo should make it clear though that continued payments don't cover subscriptions any more.

These days there's another way round it for companies anyway when it comes to services offered. Just declare them as Betas. The likes of Google for example do this a lot, which means you are on an experimental service with no guarantees which can be withdrawn at any time.

[philmck]

Originally Posted by DeadKenny

...it's not a case of being unenforcable, as they have said and have every right to remove a service...

OK, "unenforcable" is the wrong word, but what I meant was there's a contradiction here. On the one hand, they have sold me a specified service for a specified time. The service clearly includes "suggestions" and I am clearly still within the defined time (original unmodified hardware still working and owned by the original purchaser). They are now withdrawing that service without any warning, compensation, workaround or replacement.

Imagine someone sold you "lifetime car cleaning", which included monthly cleaning (carefully defined) as long as you own the car. They do it for a year then suddenly stop appearing (or only come once a year, or only clean the windows or whatever). They point to a clause saying they can change the way they clean the car whenever they like. That's clearly not what I thought I was buying. It's the same here.

[a_tivo_noob]

ironically, i've just viewed the last ever suggestion my tivo recorded which was "The King of Queens"...

an episode that partially-centres around Tivo and it's "suggestions" system (do a websearch for "My Tivo thinks i'm gay")

[DeadKenny]

Originally Posted by philmck

Imagine someone sold you "lifetime car cleaning", which included monthly cleaning (carefully defined) as long as you own the car. They do it for a year then suddenly stop appearing (or only come once a year, or only clean the windows or whatever). They point to a clause saying they can change the way they clean the car whenever they like. That's clearly not what I thought I was buying. It's the same here.

Again, it all comes down to the definition of "lifetime" when it comes to such contracts.

I would think that practically, in the TiVo case, lifetime applies to the accepted lifetime of the product, not for your entire life. It's well beyond the accepted lifetime of those original TiVos. If this was a year after purchase then it's another matter.

And besides the "get-out" clause is there in the contract and you accepted it. You could of course try for having been mis-sold the contract. You could enquire with trading standards.

Whilst I would prefer subscriptions to stay, I don't think we have a leg to stand on. Not at least without a very expensive lawyer.