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Old 09-30-2008, 04:31 AM   #31
gotty
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Originally Posted by TiVoPony View Post
I'm sorry you feel cheated, hopefully the years of service your TiVo has provided you have been worthwhile.

I hope you'll stay on with us, even though the box is a bit long in the tooth, those Series1 systems are solid machines.

Pony
I think you'll find that many TiVo users will be feeling very cheated (those who don't care about suggestions won't of course).

I for one don't want to be paying £10 a month for a service that has just been reduced to 25% of what it was two months ago. And, having paid £800 over the years to support TiVo I feel that this is a serious kick in the teeth. Particularly as it has come without warning (and shows a significant lack of professionalism or respect for users).

As soon as I can I will now be ditching my TiVo (I've barely used it over the past month), and I would suspect that there will be a significant drop in UK subscriptions over the next few months. I've just spoken with an old neighbour and he's cancelling his two subscriptions today.

And, like him, I'll be demanding a refund of this last month's subscription.

It will also be interesting to see how/if any publicity surrounding this will affect things like the Australian take-up.
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Old 09-30-2008, 04:38 AM   #32
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Disappointing ... So rather than actually provide the advertised service to paying customers it's just another 2 fingers up to the UK market. And then the marketing execs wonder why people refuse to buy products.

But Tivo just cant be bothered to actually assign (and pay) a developer to do so. But they are perfectly happy to keep taking in the money.

I appreciate that it is not TivoPonys fault however it's just another big corporation saying "we have your money and we no longer care - go away".

Such is life ;-)

Cheers,
Mike
Good points, well made.

What should be worrying those at TiVo is the fact that they've made a huge blunder here in terms of the operation of the system and, while they're presumably fixing it for American and Australian users, who is to say that similar gotchas aren't waiting in the wings (if they couldn't see this problem coming then there has to be something seriously wrong with their development team).

So who is to say that those buying new machines won't be shafted like this in a couple of years time.
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Old 09-30-2008, 04:47 AM   #33
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again just re-iterating, thanks for the (bad)news.
Unfortunately this means, to me, tivo is basically just another freeview pvr that you have to pay extra for every month
Suggestions was probably the best part of tivo for me and have recomeneded it many times, i feel i can no longer do that honestly
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Old 09-30-2008, 05:09 AM   #34
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Disappointing news. I'll have to have a long think about what to do - if I hadn't recently upgraded I'd probably just cancel and get a Toppy. Think I'll try out mikerr's Suggs hack and see how that goes.
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Old 09-30-2008, 05:13 AM   #35
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TivoPony, I can understand that you (Tivo) can't justify allocating development time to correct the suggestions issue, but how about opening up the Tivo S1 sources to some developers who would be prepared to spend the time, subject to suitable NDAs of course? Apart from the (still unbeaten in terms of wife friendliness) user interface, and general reliability of the Tivo, the ability to customise it has been a major attraction for me. I'm sure that some of the users who have obviously spent a lot of time writing the various tivo hacks would jump at the chance to work with the actualy source code. So in one move you could make UK users very happy and also perhaps get some nice new features for your US S1 users (or perhaps some good ideas for later models!).

Alternatively get us access to some up to date machines!!!
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Old 09-30-2008, 05:37 AM   #36
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I for one don't want to be paying £10 a month for a service that has just been reduced to 25% of what it was two months ago.
No offence or dis-respect intended, but which bit of thin air did you pull this figure out of?

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As soon as I can I will now be ditching my TiVo ....
If anyone would like to give me their "now useless" LT-sub'd Tivo then I'm happy to pay postage costs

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.... while they're presumably fixing it for American and Australian users...
I don't think US S2+ and new Oz (ie not hacked S1) users aren't affected by this.
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Last edited by cwaring : 09-30-2008 at 05:43 AM. Reason: Wanted to concantenate my replies
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Old 09-30-2008, 05:41 AM   #37
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I gave my tivo some random thumbs up on various programs last night and this morning it had recorded a suggestion!

When i go into the suggestions menu it still thinks its a new tivo and has no suggestions but how did it get a suggestion for me?

It recorded "loose women" for me......i dont know if i had given that a "thumbs up" or not because like i said, i just randomly rated a few programs, but it seems like some part of the suggestion functionality must still be working to get that program for me?

Its almost like it loses your thumbs data overnight.

Dont understand
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Old 09-30-2008, 05:56 AM   #38
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Yes, it only seems to work with recent thumbs.

The suggestion code must have at least three sections,
(1) one to look at recent thumbs,
(2) another at older thumbs,
(3) and another to produce "predicted thumbs".

Its only the (least important!) first part (recent thumbs) that is still working.
So as you say, you can thumb up stuff today, and that will record as a suggestion later on today,
or until a daily call when thumb data is merged (and "new" becomes "old").
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Old 09-30-2008, 06:03 AM   #39
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I think that is very poor and I will no longer be able to rave about Tivo, as a faultless system, in the way I am accustomed. In my opinion it no longer works as advertised.
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Old 09-30-2008, 06:38 AM   #40
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Yes, it only seems to work with recent thumbs.
Looks like TiVo got the thumbs up all of us....
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Old 09-30-2008, 06:46 AM   #41
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Yes, it only seems to work with recent thumbs.

The suggestion code must have at least three sections,
(1) one to look at recent thumbs,
(2) another at older thumbs,
(3) and another to produce "predicted thumbs".

Its only the (least important!) first part (recent thumbs) that is still working.
So as you say, you can thumb up stuff today, and that will record as a suggestion later on today,
or until a daily call when thumb data is merged (and "new" becomes "old").
I wonder what would happen if a hack could run through the old thumbs and convert them to new thumbs so that they get resubmitted? I'm guessing there's a lot more to this, involving recording history and so on, so the results would be flaky at best, even if it were possible.
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Old 09-30-2008, 07:09 AM   #42
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We now believe this to be due to recent changes in the program data supplied by our provider. While these data changes are necessary and allow the continued recording of your favorite shows, they are incompatible with the TiVo Suggestions feature. As such, TiVo Suggestions will no longer be available as a part of the TiVo Service for Series1 subscribers in the United Kingdom.


Bob Pony
If this new data is incompatible with Tivo's Suggestions feature how does it manage to give you suggestions for stuff that you "thumbs up" today?( before it makes the daily call).......surely you wouldn't get anything at all if it cant read the new data format?
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Old 09-30-2008, 07:29 AM   #43
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Quite upset by this. I paid my life time a few years ago after paying monthly for... too many years. I even convinced the inlaws to get one.

Looking at the UI of some of the newer FreeviewPlayback PVRs, they exceed TiVo in many ways (video previews, subtitles, etc). I'd love a S3, but once bitten, twice shy.
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Old 09-30-2008, 09:27 AM   #44
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The TiVo service in the UK is almost certainly running at a loss - as well as paying to have the data to be put together and for customer service to be maintained, most people's daily calls are on a freephone number which TiVo picks up the bill for, and the only revenue is the dwindling handful of monthly subscribers.

So I think complaining that TiVo should throw more money at the UK market with no prospect of any return on it is a bit unfair. They are a business, not fellow hackers!

Quote:
Is it fair to tell paying customers "we're no longer going to provide you the service we advertised because we cannot be bothered?".
Almost six years after said service ceased to be offered to new customers, yes I'm afraid it's perfectly fair.
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Old 09-30-2008, 09:33 AM   #45
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TivoPony, I can understand that you (Tivo) can't justify allocating development time to correct the suggestions issue, but how about opening up the Tivo S1 sources to some developers who would be prepared to spend the time, subject to suitable NDAs of course? Apart from the (still unbeaten in terms of wife friendliness) user interface, and general reliability of the Tivo, the ability to customise it has been a major attraction for me. I'm sure that some of the users who have obviously spent a lot of time writing the various tivo hacks would jump at the chance to work with the actualy source code. So in one move you could make UK users very happy and also perhaps get some nice new features for your US S1 users (or perhaps some good ideas for later models!).

Alternatively get us access to some up to date machines!!!
Or failing that, give us a technical briefing on the exact problem, under an NDA if necessary. UK hackers have been quite resourceful in the past at bodging together solutions to problems with the TiVo software! There are three or four people on here who, I'm almost certain, could come up with a patch/hack to get things going again for those with hacked TiVos.
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Old 09-30-2008, 09:36 AM   #46
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Is it fair to tell paying customers "we're no longer going to provide you the service we advertised because we cannot be bothered?".
Almost six years after said service ceased to be offered to new customers, yes I'm afraid it's perfectly fair.
To be pedantic, service did not cease six years ago, only hardware sales.

New service (subs) is still offered to new subscribers today !
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Old 09-30-2008, 09:37 AM   #47
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I don't wish to say 'I told you so', but... well... 'I told you so'.
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Old 09-30-2008, 09:43 AM   #48
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opening up the Tivo S1 sources to some developers who would be prepared to spend the time, subject to suitable NDAs
It would need to be more than an NDA - resourceful hackers might start to try to implement S3 features with enough access, and TiVo wouldn't want us 'doing our own thing'!

I'd be massively fascinated to get even a restricted access peek behind the curtain.
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Old 09-30-2008, 09:45 AM   #49
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Yes, it only seems to work with recent thumbs.

The suggestion code must have at least three sections,
(1) one to look at recent thumbs,
(2) another at older thumbs,
(3) and another to produce "predicted thumbs".

Its only the (least important!) first part (recent thumbs) that is still working.
So as you say, you can thumb up stuff today, and that will record as a suggestion later on today,
or until a daily call when thumb data is merged (and "new" becomes "old").
I guess what's happening is that historical thumbs are being stored in some kind of data table associated with the TMSID of the show. As TiVoPony says, this is not typically how TiVo works - when it loads the guide data it creates a database object for each show (and series) which has an ID unique to that show on that Tivo. All subsequent data manipulation is done on that new ID, not the TMSID. Which is why everything else keeps working.

Updating that table probably occurs when new guide data is loaded, and that's why things break every night.

If we knew where in MFS this table was, and what its format was, it might be possible to patch it in some way by doing our own editing of TMSIDs in the guide data or in MFS.

If anyone's running my Tracker application - this also works by maintaining a database of TMSIDs and I'd be interested to know if that's broken too.
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Old 09-30-2008, 09:46 AM   #50
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resourceful hackers might start to try to implement S3 features
I think you'll find we already have!
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Old 09-30-2008, 09:53 AM   #51
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Shhhh!
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Old 09-30-2008, 02:00 PM   #52
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Over the years I've discovered programmes I like but had never heard of. There's countless documentaries shown on obscure channels at stupid o'clock we'd never have spotted.

If a team of programmers can't sort this out for the hundreds? of S1 customers you've really lost the ball.
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Old 09-30-2008, 02:16 PM   #53
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The algorithms used within the software for TiVo Suggestions (in version 2.5 software) unfortunately do not take advantage of this abstraction, they require the actual TMSID's (which have now changed format)...leading to the inability to create or schedule Suggestions on UK
So how many man days of programming effort are actually required by Tivo staff to update the algorithms used within the software for Tivo Suggestions in order to cope with the new format of data being supplied by Tribune Media Services? And since this issue also appears to affect your US Series 1 machines and therefore has the potential to do serious damage to the Tivo brand in its home territory surely it needs to be sorted out by Tivo.

You seem to rule out an updated release of the software run by our Tivo S1 machines but if a new release is necessary in order to maintain the existing advertised data feature set then why not. We aren't asking for an update to our software just for fun but in order to maintain the original advertised feature set.

Also aren't Tribune Media Services now in breach of contract by providing data in a format not compatible with the continued support of the Tivo Series 1 machines? Alternatively Tivo would appear to be in breach of contract to the Lifetime Subscription customers and we should therefore all be entitled to a significant refund of the original cost of the Lifetime Sub? Similarly the cost of a Monthly Sub should also be reduced to reflect the downgraded service now available.

The Suggestions concept with the Thumbs Up and Thumbs Down buttons on the remote is at the very heart of what a Tivo is about and is one of its key patented features. To my mind without the continued availability of Suggestions then the service we will continue to enjoy is not really a Tivo service at all but merely a cut down ordinary PVR service.
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Old 09-30-2008, 02:19 PM   #54
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Wow! Hyperbole much?! Have you actually read the rest of this thread wrt subs? (Post #44 in particular)

I would be stupid to suggest that the service hasn't been affected at all, but with phrases like "the service is now 25% what it used to be" and the suggestion (okay, that wasn't intentional, honest ) that our Tivos are now "useless", etc. being bandied about I think some people are getting so upset it's a little un-nerving to be honest.
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Old 09-30-2008, 02:27 PM   #55
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So how many man days of programming effort are actually required by Tivo staff to update the algorithms used within the software for Tivo Suggestions in order to cope with the new format of data being supplied by Tribune Media Services?
Probably more effort than to simply make a new tivo available to the UK

Either in hardware (the austrailian DVB tivo) or software (Tivo PC)
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Old 09-30-2008, 02:32 PM   #56
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Probably more effort than to simply make a new tivo available to the UK

Either in hardware (the austrailian DVB tivo) or software (Tivo PC)
But the development costs of type approving and releasing and distributing a replacement hardware platform for the remaining active UK user base are probably not worthwhile......
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Old 09-30-2008, 02:38 PM   #57
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Over the years I've discovered programmes I like but had never heard of. There's countless documentaries shown on obscure channels at stupid o'clock we'd never have spotted.

If a team of programmers can't sort this out for the hundreds? of S1 customers you've really lost the ball.
Who says they "can't"? It's more likely that it's not practical for them to fix such a minor issue for a relatively small population of boxes that haven't been updated in.......how long? If most of those boxes are getting lifetime service at whatever price was available back then, they've stopped being a source of revenue long ago.

If they did go back and try to revive antiquated code and spend whatever time and resources needed to refamiliarize themselves with said code, as well as fix the issue and run a beta program to test for several weeks, there's a strong chance that many boxes wouldn't survive the upgrade process anyway. I've read on this forum that Tivo uses a separate partition just for software. How many people would be much more upset that their box died [you know they'd blame the software itself rather than the process of upgrading a crusty hard drive] than they would be at losing Suggestions? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. It's just not a good choice for them to make.

For most of us, regardless of which side of the pond we're on, Suggestions are a "nice-to-have" feature that is rarely used and is not a key factor in using the service. If a core user function were broken that kept you from using it at all, that would be different story. Suggestions are just a cherry on top of the frosting. Without it, you still have a tasty cake.

And if the argument is "we're paying the same and getting less", all you gotta do is compare the old Series1 boxes to the Series2, and newer, models over here. Granted, the old S1 owners haven't lost anything, but they are paying the same as newer customers who are "getting more" for the same price.

I'd say you should get a newer model, but that's not an option. If anything, take your disappointment/anger and start a campaign to get Sky back on board with a Tivo partnership and then you'd be in on the ground floor when upgrades are available!
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Old 09-30-2008, 02:41 PM   #58
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I've just written a an article on this for tech site BLORGE.
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Old 09-30-2008, 02:53 PM   #59
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I've just written a an article on this for tech site BLORGE.
A great article covering all the main ground. How many readers a day or a week does your site get? I take it that you are yourself an American based in the United States?

One interesting further point is that the US Series 1 Tivo machines possibly have not had their Suggestions feature irreparably broken because they run a Version 3.x.x something of the Tivo software instead of our last software release version of 2.5.5 dating from late 2002. If this is true then why can't the UK users be upgraded to version 3.x.x of the software as it already exists and can support Suggestions and run on the Tivo Series 1 hardware platform with the altered Tribune Media Services data source?
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Old 09-30-2008, 02:57 PM   #60
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If anything, take your disappointment/anger and start a campaign to get Sky back on board with a Tivo partnership and then you'd be in on the ground floor when upgrades are available!
Its never going to happen with Sky and Tivo in the UK again as they make far more money out of selling their own inferior Sky+ PVR. That is why they cut ties with Tivo in the first place.

The only likely partners for Tivo in the UK are our main cable service provider Virgin (who even use the same model of Scientific Atlanta cable box that can support Tivo software in the US) or our Freesat or Freeview digital satellite and digital terrestrial television platforms. The problem with the latter two is that they do not charge monthly subscriptions so covering the costs of Tivo's data supply from TMS is a real issue.
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