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View Poll Results: How Important is This to You?
It's so important that I'd pay extra for it. 159 9.17%
It's important but I wouldn't pay extra for it. 1309 75.53%
Not important, but I'd probably use it if it was free. 219 12.64%
I'd probably never use it one way or the other. 46 2.65%
Voters: 1733. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-05-2003, 03:04 PM   #121
vegaspl
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrettStah
Paul, if you did that, wouldn't "Committed" almost always completely take up all available space over time?
I think you may have misunderstood me. Or.... I wasn't clear enough.

It is "suggestions" that would almost always completely take up all available space over time. That's why that figure would be kinda useless.

What I mean't by "Commited" was the total of all the upcoming scheduled programs (TDL) for all or a portion of the TDL to a projected date.

IOW..... When I plan to travel, I determine when I will be back. Does what is in the NP together with whats in my TDL (to the return date) exceed my total space capability?

Example:

Todays date is Jan 1

I plan to return on January 8

My Capacity in total is 100 hrs

My NP at 1/1 is 60 hrs

My TDL is committed to:

8 hrs on 1/2

10 hrs on 1/3

2 hrs on 1/4

10 hrs on 1/5

3 hrs on 1/6

2 hrs on 1/7

1 hr on 1/8

4 hrs on 1/9

The above indicates that since I will not be watching and deleting anything while I am away, I had better start watching when I get back or some NP programs will start deleting to make room for the TDL of 1/10 and/or some of the TDL programs schedule for 1/10 will not record.

Note: For S/A' Unless all recordings are at one recording quality The hours indicated in the above are the calculated equivalents.

When anticipating Travel, I have been doing the above calculations manually for quite some time. It's frustrating...as TiVo could so easily do it for me.
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Old 01-05-2003, 04:43 PM   #122
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Oh, gotcha... you're suggesting that they show the number of net hours scheduled to be recorded each day, whereas I suggested they just tell me when it'll fill up. I can see why knowing how much per day would be handy though.
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Old 01-05-2003, 05:12 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrettStah
Oh, gotcha... you're suggesting that they show the number of net hours scheduled to be recorded each day, whereas I suggested they just tell me when it'll fill up. I can see why knowing how much per day would be handy though.
Not necessarily "Show" the net hours each day. Just the "TOTAL" hours (or %) that will be used at each upcoming day.

The example I had given was just for clarification of how the desired result to be shown will be arrived at.

However, this would be more of what I suspect would be shown:

Date Hrs/% Used Hrs/% Remaining

Currently: 1/1 60 hrs / 60 % 40 hrs / 40 %

8 hrs on 1/2 68hrs / 68 % 32 hrs / 32 %


10 hrs on 1/3 78 hrs / 78 % 40 hrs / 40 %


2 hrs on 1/4 80 hrs / 80 % 20 hrs / 20 %


10 hrs on 1/5 90 hrs / 90 % 10 hrs / 10%


3 hrs on 1/6 93 hrs / 93 % 7 hrs / 7%

2 hrs on 1/7 95 hrs / 95 % 5 hrs / 5%

1 hr on 1/8 96 hrs / 96 % 4 hrs / 4%

4 hrs on 1/9 100 hrs / 100 % 0 hrs / 0%
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Old 01-06-2003, 11:09 AM   #124
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What's wrong with the "7-day forecast" idea? A series of vertical bar graphs arrayed horizontally across the screen should convey all the key information quickly, and solve the problem of upcoming recordings.

Heck, if nothing else, we should at LEAST be able to get a one-line summary in the System Information screen that says the number of hours/minutes are actually USED in Now Playing at the moment. That would save people from adding up the times manually.
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Old 01-06-2003, 12:06 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally posted by vegaspl
What I mean't by "Commited" was the total of all the upcoming scheduled programs (TDL) for all or a portion of the TDL to a projected date.

IOW..... When I plan to travel, I determine when I will be back. Does what is in the NP together with whats in my TDL (to the return date) exceed my total space capability?
YES! This is what I had envisioned when I created my pie chart mockup screen well over a year ago.

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Old 01-06-2003, 01:45 PM   #126
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My only nitpick with both of your ideas (Deven and rbird) is the arbitrariness of a 7 day or 3 day window. What about 2 days, or 5 days?

Otherwise, I'm fine with the idea, as long as it's easy to grasp at a glance what's happening, and most importantly when I'll run out of space. I envision something like the following graph being something that would be extremely helpful:
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Old 01-06-2003, 01:57 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrettStah
My only nitpick with both of your ideas (Deven and rbird) is the arbitrariness of a 7 day or 3 day window. What about 2 days, or 5 days?

Otherwise, I'm fine with the idea, as long as it's easy to grasp at a glance what's happening, and most importantly when I'll run out of space. I envision something like the following graph being something that would be extremely helpful:

Brett:

I Love it

The graph you linked to is absolutely all I would need

Now if we could just get TiVo it do it
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Old 01-06-2003, 02:29 PM   #128
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Well, I know it's sort of a small thing to hang on to, but not long before RB left TiVo he did say, in so many words, that our discussion/debate on this issue was now moot. Based on that, and the fact that they obviously decided since the beginning not to add a simple current free space indicator, leads me to believe that we'll get something closer to what we're pushing for...
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Old 01-06-2003, 02:39 PM   #129
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Hmmm... I always took RB's comment to mean that they would never add a free-space indicator. Since we as a group can never agree on any aspects of an FSI, it's just too hard to figure out what is "correct". As I've said before on this issue, I hope I'm wrong about never getting an FSI of SOME sort, but I think I'm right.
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Old 01-06-2003, 07:17 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrettStah
My only nitpick with both of your ideas (Deven and rbird) is the arbitrariness of a 7 day or 3 day window. What about 2 days, or 5 days?
If you'll check my mock FSI screen again, I believe you'll find a blue wiener just waiting for your input.

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Old 01-09-2003, 10:34 AM   #131
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Brett,

Your mockup is similar to the "forecast" I was just talking about, in that it's a series of bar graphs, one per day. Of course, you have to pick a point in time to represent for the day; midnight would be an obvious choice, although 6 AM the next morning might be better. I guess I'd also add a "current" graph for right now, then continue with today's date (prediction for the end of the day), and as many days forward as makes sense. Yes, 7 days was arbitrary, but I meant showing EACH of those 7 days, not just 7 days out. You could go as far as the data allows (12-14 days) or limit it to 7 for consistency...

As for the look of each bar, I wouldn't do it quite the same way -- I'd have them vertical still, but each bar would be the same height (representing 100%), with several dividing lines and different colors for the breakdown -- sort of like a pie chart, but in a vertical bar form instead. It's hard to say exactly which categories should be shown, but I'd say definitely start with green at the bottom representing SUID programs, then maybe blue (or some other neutral color) for unexpired programs, then yellow for expired (but not deleted) programs, then another color (black? brown? striped?) for Suggestions, finally a last color for truly free space that's not allocated at all. (I suppose you could just end the graph without filling in that top segment, alternatively.)

I would be inclined to put diagonal stripes across the free space and Suggestions segments, since those are available for new recordings. Actually, come to think of it, it might look prettier (and less confusing) to use fewer colors. Suppose you keep solid green for SUID programs, and use solid yellow for requested programs that aren't SUID, then striped yellow for the expired programs, and striped black/brown/blue for the Suggestions? The stripes would basically identify what's available for recording, while keeping the graph pretty simple...

How does that sound?
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Old 01-09-2003, 10:42 AM   #132
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That'd work for me!

The main things I'd prefer would be:

1) It's easy, at a glance, for my parents to understand what it means. So complex charts would be out. (Your chart doesn't sound complex to me).

2) It is always accurate based on the current data available, even if it means a dreaded "Please Wait..." message.

3) It shows me, at a glance, when I'm going to start losing something. At least the day and time.
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Old 01-09-2003, 10:56 AM   #133
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(1) I hope such a graph would be easy enough for just about anyone to understand -- the amount of space "really" used is the solid part, the striped part is used but available to record over, and the extra bit above the striped part is not used at all. You could inverse the meaning of the stripes and have the stuff that ISN'T reclaimable be striped instead, but I think that would be uglier.

(2) I wouldn't want to see a "Please Wait..." message, but I wouldn't mind if each bar appeared individually, and it took a few seconds for each to pop up. (The "current" bar should pop up almost instantly, since it only needs to scan Now Playing.) Until all the bars are displayed, you'd want a message at the bottom of the screen to indicate that it's not done displaying. You should still be able to leave the screen without waiting for the entire thing to be drawn -- if you don't need the forecast for 7 days from now, why should you have to wait while it's being calculated? (Anyway, it's probably the same work it has to do when checking for low disk space when scheduling a recording, and that only takes a few seconds normally...)

(3) I have no problem with the message at the bottom of the screen indicating the time/date when it's expected to run out. That's useful additional information.

(4) I would NOT represent the graph in hours. With VBR, that's uncertain anyhow. I'd make it a simple 0-100% scale -- the user can always estimate from the percentage the approximate number of hours it represents. I don't know if it would be good or bad to label the numeric percentage of each segment in the graph -- apart from additional clutter, it might be better to make the user estimate visually to force a little error into the process so the user doesn't expect perfect precision in predicting the number of hours...

(5) On the other hand, I would like to be able to see exactly how many hours and minutes are actually in use -- I'm not sure how to reconcile this. Maybe just show HH:MM under each graph for the total of the unstriped area, that would probably be good enough...

Of course, even if we can finally come to a consensus after all this time, could we convince TiVo to implement it?
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Old 01-09-2003, 12:00 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally posted by Deven


Of course, even if we can finally come to a consensus after all this time, could we convince TiVo to implement it?
Heh. Consensus? Among whom? The 5 people who still think this is an active topic?

If Tivo does eventually move FSI up high enough on the list to get implemented. They might look back at this discussion for some ideas, but in the end, they'll sit down and decide amongst themselves what is useful, usable, and implementable. Then they'll give it some silly name like iSpace or iIndicator...

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Old 01-20-2003, 03:46 PM   #135
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Has anyone every seen the space usage graph on the tivoweb page? In the Original Branch section, there is an example space usage graph, which was generated from my actual tivo data about 2 years ago on version 1.3 software.

Unfortunately with VBR and some changes in tivo's scheduling algorithm, it wouldn't be as easy to do any more. But in the new tivoweb there is some pretty good information about space used in the info module.
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Old 02-27-2003, 03:05 PM   #136
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Cool My 1972 Chevy Nova has a fuel meter

I once owned a 1972 chevy Nova, nothing special, but it had a little thing that told me how much gas I had. Why can't this little linux box tell me how much free space (gas) I have left?

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Old 02-27-2003, 04:01 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lightn
Has anyone every seen the space usage graph on the tivoweb page? In the Original Branch section, there is an example space usage graph, which was generated from my actual tivo data about 2 years ago on version 1.3 software.
Yeah, I've been meaning to sit down and re-massage that graph into how I envisioned my "clogged pipe" model. Any chance you still have the raw data?
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Old 03-03-2003, 12:33 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lightn
But in the new tivoweb there is some pretty good information about space used in the info module.
Since the thread has been bumped....YES, I love this feature. Between the Info page and the "Deleted Items" page under User Interface, I can get a good bit of the information I'm looking for.

For those who don't use TivoWeb, the Deleted Items page shows programs which have been deleted but not yet overwritten (and therefore may be "undeleted"). It's like using the suggestions to gauge free space, except much more accurate!

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Old 04-18-2003, 10:29 AM   #139
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May have already been said...

Not just a single free space indicator please.

Also each entry in the list of recorded shows should indicate how big it is
(much like a computer directory would), so you know what the best
candidates for deletion (or archiving) are.

... Roger
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Old 05-28-2003, 04:37 PM   #140
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Judging from the number of posts on this thread and the passion involved, a perfect FSI could take man-years to develop, which might be why we haven’t seen it.

How about just a simple “df –a” output hidden as an Easter Egg feature, anywhere a developer kind enough to satisfy the nerds among us see fit to put in, say “system info”, three thumbs down, followed by five thumbs up...? I don’t need no translation to hours or 5-day forecast.

There have been times that I resisted the urge to open the box, take out the disk, put it into a PC, boot into Linux to get the results.
But then again, I'd probably just put another 120MB disk in there.
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Old 06-03-2003, 01:46 PM   #141
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hub: at this point, I would be happy with something like that. It would shut up the pro-FSI rabble (I'm kidding, guys... honest! ), and be almost the minimum of effort on TiVo's part.
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Old 06-05-2003, 12:28 PM   #142
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I don't really care what form the FSI takes as long as they put one in there. I really only need one to tell me how much space is used up "right now." I understand that this is never a true indication of free space due to scheduled recordings in the To Do List but for my purposes, all I want to know is if it is time to watch something that has been saved for a while or find a tape to dump some stuff to. As with most people, I am a procrastinator and will put off these tasks to the last possible minute. So I count up the total hours used on my NP list. I look in the To Do List to see how much will be recorded and the have to determine if there is room or if something will have to be pushed. Then I decide if there is anything I can delete, whether there is anything I can watch or whether I have to dump something to tape. I find myself doing it on a pretty regular basis.

Bottom Line: How many people have to go through their Now Playing list on a regular basis and count up the total hours used? (wouldn't it be nice if there were some way to show the duration of the program on the main NP screen rather than going into each program to find out how long it is?)
I would bet I am not the only one. For my needs, it would be great if there were a simple "gas gauge" type FSI that said how much space was used up right now.
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Old 06-05-2003, 10:07 PM   #143
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Turn suggestions on. Take a piece of paper and write, in nice clear text: "The amount of free space you have available RIGHT NOW is: 0" and tape it to the bottom of your screen.

It'll be right within about 2 days, and be correct 99% of the time thereafter, and it didn't take any effort on Tivo's part.

Wow, this thread has been going for over a year. I should've made this suggestion sooner!


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Old 06-06-2003, 12:46 PM   #144
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Since there isn't a Free Space Indicator, perhaps we can find an easy work around using existing functions.

1) Turn on Suggestions. (Wait a few days if you didn't have it on before)
2) Observe how many suggestions are saved. When suggestions drop close to zero you are out of free space.
3) Sort the Now Playing list by expiration or record time. The oldest programs will disappear first.
4) Watch or archive the oldest programs.

Done!

(See? You didn't need a FSI after all! )
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Old 06-06-2003, 01:08 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally posted by voripteth
3) Sort the Now Playing list by expiration or record time. The oldest programs will disappear first.(See? You didn't need a FSI after all! )
Oops. 4.0 took away sort by expiration. See, we do need FSI. (And sort by expiration).

(I've seen a posting of FSI available if you have backdoors enabled on 4.0. It looks like it has what we need, if only it didn't add up to about 120% of disk space. Maybe it will be made available in the next release.)
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Old 06-06-2003, 03:01 PM   #146
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Quote:
1) Turn on Suggestions. (Wait a few days if you didn't have it on before)
2) Observe how many suggestions are saved. When suggestions drop close to zero you are out of free space.
3) Sort the Now Playing list by expiration or record time. The oldest programs will disappear first.
4) Watch or archive the oldest programs.
That's exactly how i do it. Just keep track of the suggestions and when there are almost none I know i have to start worrying

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Old 06-06-2003, 06:16 PM   #147
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You guys amaze me. Do you think this thread would have been going so long if people were content with such a backwards work-around for this issue? Sure, that is a way to fill up your disk with crap that can be deleted but it still doesn't tell you how much free space you have. You still would have to either count up the total hours used by recorded programs or the total hours used by suggestions. Besides, I haven't yet seen anything on the Suggestions that I would want to watch so I prefer to keep them off.

In my opinon, the purpose of this suggestions forum is not for people to suggest a jerry-rigged way to get around the lack of a feature in the software. The purpose of the forum (IMO) is for TiVo users to get together and gripe about things they wish TiVo would add to the software or hardware in the next version. Hopefully TiVo uses forums like this as a way to get free market research and to find out what their users really want.

If a poster asks for something that is already available, then the forum should point him in the right direction. But if a poster simply makes a request or a wish for an enhancement to the TiVo software there is no reason for people to continue to make the same lame suggestions about how that poster could get by without the enhancement if he is willing to do such and such.

Just an opinion. I would like to see the forums have a useful purpose and that is providing feedback to TiVo on what active users of their product would like to see "fixed." But every time someone comes back with an unsactisfactory work-around, it simply says to TiVo that this enhancement isn't necessary because people are willing to accept a mediocre substitution.
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Old 06-07-2003, 01:21 PM   #148
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To devdogaz

Wow......

I couldn't have expressed it any better!!!!

In all the years that I have been following postings on this feature being requested, not once have I seen any response from TiVo. At least they could express WHY it cannot or will not be added.
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Old 06-10-2003, 09:04 AM   #149
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I don't work for TiVo but I can give you three reasons why they won't touch this feature:

1) There is a simple work around by watching the number of suggestions.

2) There is no single solution that will make everyone happy. Look at the number of different solutions proposed.

3) Potential of giving misleading information. Without a FSI, TiVo has some wiggle room when freeing space. Adding FSI may cause additional complaints when someone's program gets deleted when FSI showed there was room.

Of course on the other hand this could be a wonderful thing to release as an "undocumented feature". People could use it if they were willing to take the risks of it not being perfect.

While we're waiting for them to add this undocumented feature, take a look at reason #1 again.
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Old 06-10-2003, 11:42 AM   #150
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Quote:
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I don't work for TiVo but I can give you three reasons why they won't touch this feature:
I think your initial assertion is incorrect. We have seen screen shots of an FSI that is available in 4.0 with backdoors enabled. Clearly TiVo has spent some effort to give us some measure of disk space in use for various types of recordings.

Now, maybe it will disappear like advanced wishlists, but I don't think it's accurate to say they won't touch this feature.
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