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View Poll Results: How Important is This to You?
It's so important that I'd pay extra for it. 159 9.17%
It's important but I wouldn't pay extra for it. 1309 75.53%
Not important, but I'd probably use it if it was free. 219 12.64%
I'd probably never use it one way or the other. 46 2.65%
Voters: 1733. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-13-2002, 07:07 PM   #31
BrettStah
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Quote:
Originally posted by JPriller
Correct. A pure free-space indicator would also be nice, but as HTH has correctly divined it'd be more of a feel-good thing. I want to be able to look at one thing in one spot, and be able to see fairly quickly when stuff I want to keep around is going to get zapped or when new stuff I want to get won't fit. My graph idea, an X-day-forecast of space usage, is my first approximation of that.

If you're about to tell me I can get all of that information now in some simple way I've overlooked, I'll gladly sit here while anyone who wants to calls me an idiot.
Nope, not going to tell you that you overlooked something...

What I've long suggested is some sort of indicator of when, based on the current information available to the Tivo, the Tivo will have to delete a non-suggestion recording. I don't think any charts are necessary (not that I'm criticizing your chart! )

Usually, this is the recording at the bottom of Now Playing, right above any suggestions. If my Tivo could tell me (pretty accurately) that it will have to delete that oldest expired recording next Friday at 7:00 pm, I don't really care about current free space at all. Of course, there is some debate as to how accurate a Tivo could keep this deletion date. Every time you would add/remove things from the To Do List, this date could change. I think that even current Series1 standalone Tivos have enough horsepower to keep it up-to-date... just simple arithmetic, basically, right? Sure, we have VBR issues to worry about, but I bet that Tivo can make the estimate pretty accurate. It should be conservative if it has to guess a little.
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Old 03-13-2002, 07:25 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrettStah
What I've long suggested is some sort of indicator of when, based on the current information available to the Tivo, the Tivo will have to delete a non-suggestion recording.
That could work very well, if it were all available in one spot - say you pressed some combination on the remote in Now Playing and an expanded view appeared. I think this has been presented before (by you?) but:

Star Trek 3/11
will be deleted approx. 3/28 6:30am to make room for
New Yankee Workshop

Battlebots 3/10
will expire approx. 3/29 10:00pm due to 'keep at most' setting (3)

That provides detail the graph does not, I'd just have to look over everything I care about (maybe it could sort by inverse deletion date).
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Old 03-14-2002, 02:15 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by JPriller
I don't see anything wrong with 'feel good' knowledge, but I can understand why TiVo would wish to devote its development resources elsewhere (to folders, say). And while I think a plain free-space indicator would be useful on occasion, what I really want is this.
A version of a graph was successfully made for 1.3.0 and earlier, but TiVo's behavior changed with 2.0 and the introduction of just-in-time deletion. Unfortunately, I can't find the reference to the png image. (If I had it, I'd do a visual example of my pipeline model.)

Quote:
A real-world scenario then. I'm going on vacation for a week and some, and my 118-hour SA TiVo is (how full? no idea, I suppose I could add up the shows in a spreadsheet) and a lot it is stuff I haven't watched yet and don't want to lose. There's another of TNN's ST:TNG marathons while we're gone and my wife wants to keep all of them, I wanna bump the 'keep' number of a dozen SPs from 3 to 5 and a half dozen from 5 to 'all', and set KUID on the few I and/or the wife really care about. I'm turning off suggestions, because I've been bit by the early-deletion bug and don't care to be again.

I've got a nice big TiVo, I guess it'll all fit... but where do I look and what all do I do to determine whether or not everything I want recorded and kept will (barring the heartbreak of signal loss) be there when I get back from vacation? I can't think of any way that doesn't involve lots of effort, but I'd be thrilled to find out I'm being stupid.
You find out by doing just what you said you'd do in the earlier paragraph. It will tell you when what you're requesting is getting to be too much to expect. Then you can choose to change some of the upcoming To Do List entries to record at lower qualities (where applicable).

I've done this myself in relation to a trip to a football game. I pushed forward expiries of existing shows, changed scheduled shows to one-shot recordings with more than the default 2 days of retention (changing them to one-shot recordings also divorced them from the Keep At Most rules), and when it started saying others I'd wanted to keep would expire sooner, I reduced some of the To Do List recordings' quality levels until they'd all stay until I got back.

It works. I did it, and it told me everything I needed to know to get it to keep want I wanted it to keep for the duration of my absence.

What would really help in that situation though is some kind of Vacation Mode so that the TiVo could do all that work for you, that would say, "Assume everything that isn't expired and everything scheduled are things I want to watch before they get deleted. I'm going to be away until this date. What adjustments would need to be made to keep all that 'til that date? Offer recording quality adjustments according to show category and thumb ratings."

Unfortunately, for a FSI or usage graph, the amount of information it would need to communicate exceeds the amount of information the average consumer can understand at once. So I agree with TiVo's expiry model and need-to-know notification.

Historical note: did you know that, before 2.0, it was not possible to mark recordings to expire earlier? You could only Save Until I Delete or Save Longer, and SUID was literally until you deleted it because you couldn't convert it back to an expiring recording. Now you can make things expire sooner, allowing you to construct queries like, "If this recording were to expire on Friday, could I then save this other recording 'til Monday?"
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Old 03-14-2002, 05:54 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by HTH
You find out by doing just what you said you'd do in the earlier paragraph. It will tell you when what you're requesting is getting to be too much to expect. Then you can choose to change some of the upcoming To Do List entries to record at lower qualities (where applicable).
I didn't realize that, thanks. I've never run into that before, and while I was doing all my vacation changes (which was last week) the TiVo accepted each quietly. Well, I think it did complain when I bumped ST:TNG from 'keep 5' to 'keep all', saying (if I remember correctly) that it couldn't really get me ALL episodes because of conflicting SPs that outranked it.

The bad news is I still wish I had my graph (or at least a pure free-space indicator for a gut feeling) to determine how quickly I have to watch the collection of recorded stuff.

Okay, 10 minutes with the remote and a spreadsheet later, the answer is... it's still only about half full after a week's worth of shows, so no hurry. Maybe I'll just leave it in my 'vacation mode' for good.
Quote:
Unfortunately, for a FSI or usage graph, the amount of information it would need to communicate exceeds the amount of information the average consumer can understand at once. So I agree with TiVo's expiry model and need-to-know notification.
I guess I don't know what one can expect from an average consumer, but I have to agree that it'd be better as a power-user kind of add-in.
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Old 03-20-2002, 08:23 PM   #35
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Yes, tivo knows everything....Tivo can calculate right now, that if i don't watch anything, that it will need to delete X show at X time. I think there's no doubt it knows this...Why not tell us. I'm not sure we need it on every item in now showing. Just a simple line at the bottom. The next show to be deleted is X on X at X..Simple enough. We don't need a free space indicator really. We need to know "Should i go to bed now, or watch a few hours of TV. Should i delete some flim-flam, or am i ok, because i have until tuesday, and will watch a bunch of stuff by then...etc.."

At the very least, and it's something that cannot confuse, and will not hurt anybody is just a "You currently have 22 hours of recordings in now playing". That's a good start. Leave it to us to figure out the rest, if they don't want to get into the you have 1 hour of best, 2 1/2 of medium conundrum, just go with that.

I mean in 5 years, hopefully Tivo will be going strong, and i know the standard tivo device will be at least 80 hours. Stuff is going to get harder to manage. They need to start getting into the managing of stuff already recorded segment, since they've done really well with the managing of stuff i want to record in the future. The management of stuff already recorded is one of the weaker aspects of Tivo right now.

I know on my 146 hour tivo, i have suggestions turned off....I have a lot of stuff on there. If i don't watch anything for a day or 2, i have to turn suggestions on, and see what it's going to do...If after a day or 2, it only has 5 suggestions there, i know i need to watch/delete stuff. If 30 suggestions show up, i know i'm ok, but than i have to go delete every suggestion by hand. (How about a delete all suggestions click, that would be cool too.)

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Old 03-21-2002, 07:03 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by smak
Yes, tivo knows everything....Tivo can calculate right now, that if i don't watch anything, that it will need to delete X show at X time. I think there's no doubt it knows this...Why not tell us. I'm not sure we need it on every item in now showing.
Well, it's there anyway. And in the To Do List too. It tells you exactly when it will expire. If you're so low on disk space that it's less than 48 hours from the date it was recorded, or even just not at the same time of day/night as it was recorded (modulo local observations of DST (soon)), then you have reason for concern.

Of course, if you foolishly let things expire that you don't want deleted, it won't help you. Gotta use the tools correctly to get good use out of them.

And while they're still in the To Do List, you can even find out when Suggestions will delete. In Now Playing it's a bit more difficult to find out and the result is a bit fuzzy.
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Old 03-22-2002, 10:23 AM   #37
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I didn't read all of the other threads but I have an idea what the people against a free space indicator have to say on the subject: What is the point?

In many cases a TiVo is always full. Exactly what purpouse would a free space indicator serve?

I'm curious. If you think it's a good idea to have one please explain a practical application. Let's assume the counter exists. You have, say, 20 free hours right this second. Now what? I don't see how this is useful since that doesn't take into account the fact that some of this free space will be used for future recording so you don't REALLY have 20 free hours. That's like saying you've got $2000.00 in the bank but you have to pay your mortgage in three days. Should you go shopping and spend $2000.00 because you have money right this second?


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Old 03-22-2002, 10:41 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by jsoukeras
I didn't read all of the other threads but I have an idea what the people against a free space indicator have to say on the subject: What is the point?

In many cases a TiVo is always full. Exactly what purpouse would a free space indicator serve?
Yes, but full of what? I want to know how much available space I have now and over time, with 'available space' to me meaning what's left over after my requested recordings, not counting suggestions.
Quote:
I'm curious. If you think it's a good idea to have one please explain a practical application. Let's assume the counter exists. You have, say, 20 free hours right this second. Now what? I don't see how this is useful since that doesn't take into account the fact that some of this free space will be used for future recording so you don't REALLY have 20 free hours. That's like saying you've got $2000.00 in the bank but you have to pay your mortgage in three days. Should you go shopping and spend $2000.00 because you have money right this second?
All of that is true, which is why a free-space NOW counter is only useful if you just have to know what is available NOW. I and some other people have had a different idea, for a X-day forecast graph of space usage (thread here, again). This takes into account all recordings the TiVo knows it's going to make and what it knows it's allowed to delete. By just glancing at the graph it'd be simple to find out what I want: when any of my requested shows will start disappearing, and how much space I'll have available at any point in the forecast.

(Where's that developer's program package? I want to start writing this!)
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Old 03-22-2002, 02:11 PM   #39
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JPriller...

What do you think of this graph?
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Old 03-22-2002, 02:26 PM   #40
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Re: JPriller...

Quote:
Originally posted by HTH
What do you think of this graph?
It's not quite broken up into the categories I'd like, but the idea's the same. The 'deleted' space being included is interesting, though I can't think of a use for it. I'd only complain about the aesthetics, I'd want each color category bar to be contiguous and the suggestions bar coming down from the top seems odd.

That's from TivoWeb?
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Old 03-22-2002, 02:33 PM   #41
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I don't get the argument AGAINST a free-space indicator.

Let's see. Every COMPUTER I ever worked on told me how much disk space was free, even if I had kron jobs scheduled to fill it up later.

My DIGITAL CAMERA tells me how many pictures I have left on my flashcard based upon the current quality rating (gee, you think that confuses non-computer people who are buying the cameras at an alarming rate?).

My VCR (!) tells me how much room is left on the tape.

None of these ANTICIPATE what I will delete (or rewind on) but they are all TOOLS for making decisions.

The flaw in saying that TiVo knows what will be the disk space tomorrow or the next day is that you are ASSUMING that TiVo is doing all the deleting. I've got news for you: If I watch The Simpsons that recorded at 7 pm at 8pm tonight, I will delete it then. Not wait until TiVo deletes it for me three days from now. Maybe I just hate clutter; maybe I don't need to save it all; maybe I don't want to watch it again.

So, there is no way TiVo can know what the conditions are going to be tomorrow. It can only "suggest" or tell you that without human intervention, something will have to give.

So, give me the RIGHT to over-schedule but tell me that there is a potential problem like "Unless you make some free space before this program comes on, it will NOT record."

And tell me how much free space is available now.

Funny how every other technology will tell me in real space what I have left but somehow a TiVo (which is technologically advanced as are most of its users) thinks it is "confusing."

Gimme a break.
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Old 03-22-2002, 03:57 PM   #42
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Tony, here's why I think a simple free space indicator (without any other enhancements) would be confusing to many people, and not as useful as many others think it would be:

A Tivo user checks the spiffy new free space indicator. It indicates that there are 10 hours free (at the default quality) right now. Or, if you prefer, it indicates there are X GB of space free right now.

The user goes into the guide, and attempts to schedule the Academy Awards to record Sunday night.

Possible Result #1: Tivo schedules the recording without complaint, user finds out Monday that 3 hours of recordings that were expired were deleted to make room for the Academy Awards. Why did this happen, if it said that there were 10 hours free? The user realizes the shows were expired, but assumed that with 10 hours free he wouldn't lose any non-suggestions. Oh yeah, the user's Tivo was busy recording other things between the time he checked the free space and the Academy Awards aired, and there wasn't enough space to fit the Academy Awards show. So the free space indicator didn't provide enough information to accurately judge if enough space was actually going to be available in the future.

Possible Result #2: Tivo tells the user that there won't be enough room to fit the Academy Awards. Why, if there are 10 hours free? Oh yeah, the user has to take the upcoming schedule (aka To Do List) into account. So the free space isn't enough information to rely on to make decisions.

These are two very likely possible results, in my opinion. Even if/when users figure out that the free space indicator isn't actually telling them what they initially thought it was telling them, users STILL have to figure out when the Tivo will run out of space, since what most people really actually want to know is when they will start to lose non-suggestion recordings.

Now, I do completely understand the current Tivo's expiration-based system, and don't the fundamentals of that to change. But, unlike HTH, I would love if Tivo would predict when expired shows will be deleted, based on the current information Tivo has to base a prediction off of.

The suggestion smak had would be acceptable to me.

Basically, it doesn't/shouldn't matter how much free space you have right now... when will you lose recordings is a much better/more useful piece of knowledge I'd like have. Both would be fine, but I'd pick the latter if I could only have one.
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Old 03-22-2002, 03:59 PM   #43
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Re: Re: JPriller...

Quote:
Originally posted by JPriller
It's not quite broken up into the categories I'd like, but the idea's the same. The 'deleted' space being included is interesting, though I can't think of a use for it. I'd only complain about the aesthetics, I'd want each color category bar to be contiguous and the suggestions bar coming down from the top seems odd.

That's from TivoWeb?
AFAIK, yes, though I think it could only be derived from pre-2.0 software, due to the introduction of just-in-time deletion to accomodate the variable bit rates of DirecTV feeds.

I'm glad I found it again. It gives me a chance to massage the same data into the pipeline model I have in mind, where recordings are at the bottom and extend to their expiry date and pending recordings descend from the top, with expired recordings, suggestions, and other free space between. Though I'd prefer to have access to some raw data which included expiration dates. (Modeling expiration is important for my graph. The consequences in terms of deletion become readily apparent in it without directly modeling them.)
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Old 03-22-2002, 04:10 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by TonyD79
So, there is no way TiVo can know what the conditions are going to be tomorrow.
Sure it can. You can tell it by adjusting the expiry to be within a 24 hour period after the time you expect to delete the show yourself. Once it has that information from you, it can reasonably predict availability in the future. If you refuse to give it that information, you have no business complaining that it can't reliably predict the future.

The ability to manually expire things earlier is one of the features added with 2.0.
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Old 03-22-2002, 06:28 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by TonyD79
I don't get the argument AGAINST a free-space indicator.

Let's see. Every COMPUTER I ever worked on told me how much disk space was free, even if I had kron jobs scheduled to fill it up later.

My DIGITAL CAMERA tells me how many pictures I have left on my flashcard based upon the current quality rating (gee, you think that confuses non-computer people who are buying the cameras at an alarming rate?).

My VCR (!) tells me how much room is left on the tape.

None of these ANTICIPATE what I will delete (or rewind on) but they are all TOOLS for making decisions.

The flaw in saying that TiVo knows what will be the disk space tomorrow or the next day is that you are ASSUMING that TiVo is doing all the deleting. I've got news for you: If I watch The Simpsons that recorded at 7 pm at 8pm tonight, I will delete it then. Not wait until TiVo deletes it for me three days from now. Maybe I just hate clutter; maybe I don't need to save it all; maybe I don't want to watch it again.

So, there is no way TiVo can know what the conditions are going to be tomorrow. It can only "suggest" or tell you that without human intervention, something will have to give.

So, give me the RIGHT to over-schedule but tell me that there is a potential problem like "Unless you make some free space before this program comes on, it will NOT record."

And tell me how much free space is available now.

Funny how every other technology will tell me in real space what I have left but somehow a TiVo (which is technologically advanced as are most of its users) thinks it is "confusing."

Gimme a break.
I don't have anything against a free space meter. I just think it wouldn't provide any useful information. There is no perfect way to handle this. Most people want to be sure that something gets recorded if they elect to record it. The easiest (not necessarily the best) way to accomplish this is to prevent new recordings if, based on what TiVo knows right this second, the new recordings won't fit.

Your analogies aren't appropriate.

You can "ls >> foo.txt" a million times. Just because your computer will LET you do it doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Your digital camera tells you how many pictures you have left but your digital camera doesn't know you have 20 pictures scheduled because you can't schedule pictures.

Your VCR tells you you have 45 minutes left on a tape but it won't complain if you have 20 events scheduled to record that can't possibly fit on a tape.

The challenge in telling a person (accurately) what free space they have left is the fact that season passes exist. If you have 10 season passes for shows that are 1 hour each and are on 5 times a week that's 200 hours. Even the largest TiVo will fill up eventually.

I think the way they handle it is reasonable. Tell it what you want to record. If it projects that space won't be available mark something as save until space needed or delete it. What's the big deal?

My TiVo is always "full." Everything is save until space needed unless I want to be sure it doesn't get deleted then it's SUID. I never run out of space because I either watch a show and delete it or TiVo deletes it because it needed the space. If it was SO important to me that I didn't want to lose it I would have either watched it before it fell off or I would have marked it SUID.

I think the conflict between the "Who needs this feature?" people and the "Why don't we have this feature?" people because the people who want the TiVo to indicate free space try to keep their TiVos clean. You guys probably rapidly delete shows and try to get your space back. Other people, like me, just let TiVo manage the space based on what they told TiVo. If TiVo deletes an old show because it had to make room for a new show I don't really care.

I'd like to throw a wrench into the works. Your TiVo has 1 hour of free space left. You want to record a show that is 2 hours. TiVo tells you" Well, I'll try. If I don't have the room I won't record it." So you watch two Simpsons episodes and delete them. Now you have 2 free hours. This 2 hour "I'll record it if I can" show comes on. TiVo records it. An hour later a show that you REALLY want recorded (it's part of a season pass) comes on now there isn't any space. So TiVo recorded your "I'll record it if I can" and no longer has room for your season pass. I see that as a problem.


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Old 04-08-2002, 10:05 AM   #46
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I'm with those wanting TiVo to say it will try, even if no space (and in the To Do List it could have something next to them meaning "will tape if there's room but there's currently not going to be."

To me, SUID means I might keep it a year, but I might get home tonight and watch it. And to me it means, if I haven't deleted it and there's no room left, FINE, don't tape stuff for me. But if I have deleted things why should I have to go back in and add things then, rather than when *I* want to?

On a related note (I'll see if there's a thread and post elsewhere but while I'm thinking of it), sometimes a Season Pass will result in no shows being taped ... but that's only over the next ~10 days. And the only options are (from memory) "Record more shows" or "Delete this season pass." I'd like a third option -- "Keep this season pass even though it won't currently record anything."

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Old 04-08-2002, 05:42 PM   #47
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Doesn't anyone research things for himself anymore?

Quote:
Originally posted by rkcarter
I'm with those wanting TiVo to say it will try, even if no space (and in the To Do List it could have something next to them meaning "will tape if there's room but there's currently not going to be."
For any repeating recording (Season Pass, Wishlist, or repeating Manual Recording), it will schedule the recordings into the To Do List when enough space becomes available. One-shot recordings (anything that would get a single-check icon, including movies and single-event Manual Recordings) must have enough space predicted to be available at the their time in the schedule when added to the schedule now, and will not make way for others if you try to record more. One-shot recordings aren't rescheduled, so you must have enough space available to schedule them in the first place.

Quote:
To me, SUID means I might keep it a year, but I might get home tonight and watch it. And to me it means, if I haven't deleted it and there's no room left, FINE, don't tape stuff for me. But if I have deleted things why should I have to go back in and add things then, rather than when *I* want to?
The question is unclear.

The last question requests what is already the default when you do nothing.
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Old 04-25-2002, 03:56 PM   #48
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Changed my mind

I've always had a Replay, and when I got a DSR-6000 to get the integrated satellite receiver, not knowing how much space I had was really frustrating. But after using for several months, the design of the user interface has yet again changed the way I use it. With Replay, I say "record these shows" and reserve space for them to make sure they will always be recorded. With that model, free space is critical. The Tivo, however, acts as a stack. The oldest shows drop off the bottom and the newest ones are pushed onto the top. A free space indicator is useless, because there's never any free space (save when I delete stuff that got recorded that I didn't want). I'm not sure what a good space management information system would look like, but a simple free-space indicator wouldn't do any good. I find that while I like many aspects of the Replay user interface better, and man I wish they'd improve the performance of the Tivo user interface!, I do really like the stack aspect of the Tivo --- it's much easier to find the stuff I haven't watched already.
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Old 04-25-2002, 04:04 PM   #49
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Technically, it's a queue, not a stack. A stack adds and removes at the same end. A queue adds to one end and removes from the other.
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Old 04-25-2002, 05:39 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Blahman
I could get by without a free space indicator if I could just get some simple info without having to manually add it all up.

On the Sytem Info screen it would be nice if it listed:
1). Number of hours worth of material currently in Now Playing - Tivo Suggested Recordings
2). Number of hours worth of material currently in To Do List - Tivo Suggestions

On my ~259 hour unit this would be a great help.

Of course soon I'll also want batch save to VCR and/or editting..

Yes, I know I can do the math for both 1 and 2, but why should I when the DTivo already knows the answer. Plus think about it. ~259 hours is ~518 half hour episodes of various TV shows, or ~129 two hour movies. Really sucks trying to keep a count on that when the hardware already does so.
KUDOS to your simple suggestions!

I'm tired of hearing about using Record Suggestions as a method for judging available space. Over the past year, I have heard of many complaints about Suggestions causing deletions of wanted programs.

Yeah, I know it's not supposed to happen, but obviosly there are some situations where it can happen...ie: Timing.

Anyway, I might consider turning on Suggestions, if TiVo would simply provide a re-occurring statistic on the total current space used by those suggestions. That instead of my having to add them up myself.

I suggest this as something interim until a true FSI could be introduced.
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Old 04-30-2002, 11:55 AM   #51
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Why oh why did this topic have to suddenly explode as a thread in the Coffee House?
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Old 05-01-2002, 09:16 AM   #52
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You know how kids are these days...

Actually, I think it happened because of RB's comment.
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Old 05-29-2002, 02:58 PM   #53
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We had a geat thread going ....

I understand the thread"Free Space Quote From RB Interview" has had postings on that extremely popular subject, MOVED to here.

As RB stated on 4/30 on THAT thread, before he left .....

"I'm going to ask the "User Experience Team to take a look at this thread. And then I am going to step away from the keyboard!

I sure hope the "User Experience Team " will consider looking at THIS thread as part of his request to them.
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Old 05-29-2002, 03:29 PM   #54
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A little further in that same thread he implied that they (the programming team) had responded, and that some sort of decision had already been reached...
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Old 05-29-2002, 04:06 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrettStah
A little further in that same thread he implied that they (the programming team) had responded, and that some sort of decision had already been reached...
I must have missed that (or misread it). Any Idea what that DECISION that had been reached was?
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Old 05-29-2002, 04:06 PM   #56
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HTH, your arguments always seem to rest on the notion that the user should know in advance when they'll watch a program, and adjust the expiration times accordingly. Well, maybe you plan out your TV watching schedule in advance. I know I don't, and I'm guessing most other TiVo users don't either. I know I'll watch (and delete) something, but I don't know what.

You also seem to have this bizarre notion that you can "abuse" the SUID/KUID functions by using them too much. This is ridiculous. I may not know which programs I will watch-and-delete in the near future, but you can bet that I'll free up a few hours from watching and deleting something tonight. Whichever programs those are, I'll delete them when I'm done with them. But I mean SUID/KUID as exactly that -- save/keep this program until I delete it, not until I think I'll probably get around to watching it. When it's time, I'll know it. Until then, it should never be deleted. Period, end of subject.

I should be able to mark 100% of my recordings as SUID/KUID without crippling my TiVo. As long as I delete enough programs in time, it wouldn't be an overrun situation, so there's no reason I should ever miss a recording for doing so. (If I'm not watching enough, I'll miss something now -- something that will get randomly deleted to make room. How is that any better?) And since I don't know in advance what I'll choose to watch, I can't tell the TiVo in advance which shows should be expired when. (And life may interfere; if I don't get a chance to watch what I intended, I shouldn't lose it as a result.) Even if I record 100% SUID/KUID, that's not an overrun situation as long as I keep deleting enough programs before the space is needed. Of course, without a free space indicator, that's much harder to do.

Let's not forget that TiVo's tagline is "TV Your Way". Well, my way is that I watch whatever I feel like watching at any given moment, from the selection of programs available in my Now Playing list. I do not watch programs in a FIFO queue where I always watch the oldest program. In fact, I'll often watch the lighter half-hour comedies first and save the heavier dramas for later.

In practice, I regularly find that I've fallen several weeks behind on a given program, even if it's one of my favorites. But I sure as hell don't want those episodes deleted, even if they're weeks old. Typically, I'll sit down and watch a mini-marathon of a particular show to catch up. Properly, they should all be SUID/KUID. In practice, the TiVo's design doesn't allow this.

SUID/KUID means that a program should be kept indefinitely. The fundamental flaw with the TiVo's implementation is that it assumes this means infinitely, which is unlikely to be the user's intent. However, since there's no "Save Forever" alternative to "Save Until I Delete", this distinction is undifferentiated.

Since the TiVo can't know if a SUID program will be deleted soon or kept forever, it shouldn't refuse to schedule new rew recordings on the arbitrary assumption that SUID means "forever". Since keeping a program forever would permanently reduce the amount of disk space available, it should be obvious that this won't be the norm.

If there's an abundance of SUID programs on the system, chances are that most of them will be deleted, sooner or later. Which ones will be deleted? Who cares?!? Disk space is eminently fungible. It doesn't matter which program gets deleted, as long as the requisite disk space has been released for re-use. And if something's going to be deleted unwatched, I'd rather pick the victim myself than have the TiVo pick at random, thank you very much. I can't count the number of times when my TiVo has blown away something very important to me when I could have deleted something much less important, given the opportunity and sufficient warning to do so.

I want to keep every program I care about indefinitely. And I mean precisely that; there is no definite amount of time for how long I will keep a given program. Often, I'll watch and delete the program within 24 hours. Sometimes I won't get around to watching it for weeks. Either way, I don't want it deleted without my say-so. Automatic expirations operate on the theory that a definite amount of time should apply, which is incredibly arbitrary and makes a mockery of "TV Your Way".

Because SUID/KUID can't be used properly (to mark ALL programs that I want to keep I'm forced into a nightly ritual of spending (literally) 15-20 minutes adjusting the expiration times on nearly every program I have. This is wasted time that would have been better spent watching and deleting programs instead of trying to protect them from the axe.

If the TiVo were to offer an FSI and handle SUID more elegantly, I could get down to the business of watching TV instead of having to get bogged down in administrivia like expiration times. And isn't that the ultimate purpose of the TiVo in the first place??
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Old 05-29-2002, 04:33 PM   #57
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Deven

Don't get me wrong. I agree with 95% of what you have expressed!

However, I am a bit confused by what you said regarding SUID's having been deleted by TiVo.

I have been under the impression that SUID's cannot, under any circumstances, be Arbitrarily deleted by TiVo.

Even if ALL your recordings were earmarked SUID, and you ran out of space, TiVo would just "Not Record" the next scheduled recording. Those next scheduled (from SP/ TDL) or an immediately requested recording.

That would be shown in RH as "Wont Record"

If I am wrong, someone let me know.

In any case, it is a totally unacceptable situation, that could easily be avoided if either or both of the following simple solutions were implemented by TiVo:

1) A Dynamic warning stating something like the following:

"WARNING - SPACE MANAGEMENT MAY BE NEEDED. Based on your NP and TDL, certain programs will either start being deleted or recordings thwarted at approximately XX/XX unless space is freed up"

The above would eliminate the wasted premature efforts to start prioritizing Save until dates by MANUALLY calculating the NP & TDL when
not needed.

2) A Dynamic FSI (As requested by many) that simply indicates how much space is either used or available.


BOTH would be ideal!!!
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Old 05-29-2002, 05:04 PM   #58
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Deven, thanks for summing it up so nicely (again).

I've discovered the root of my problem. I don't use suggestions, and when I tell Tivo I want to see a show, I WILL watch it. So there's NEVER anything on there that I don't plan to watch at some point. Ideally, like Deven, I would mark everything SUID. Unfortunately, Tivo stops functioning properly when you do this. So I end up taking time out of my schedule quite often (every day, when the Tivo is "full") to save things longer. It really gets annoying after a while.

Of course, some will say I'm using Tivo "wrong". (Please see my new user title to the left! ) Or that I don't "get" the "Tivo philosophy". But isn't Tivo supposed to be a PERSONAL video recorder? I can choose to use or not use functions as I see fit (at least until Hollings and Kellner get their way).

IMHO, Tivo needs to realize that maybe their vision of how the software should work isn't how most people actually watch TV. (I'm not saying that's true, just that it MIGHT be true). Building in functions like an FSI or an expiration system that actually makes sense, while possibly never used by Tivo employees, could be useful to a large percentage of their user base.

There's a reason why one of the most asked questions in the Help Forum is "how do I tell how much space I have?".

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Old 05-29-2002, 05:38 PM   #59
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By "crippled", you mean that Tivo won't let you over-book the space with any new single-recordings, right? You can still create new season passes and auto-record wishlists, and they'll show up in Recording History as "Won't Record", if I recall how it works.
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Old 05-29-2002, 06:02 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by Deven
I'm sorry, were you saying something?
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