Babylon 5, "Divided Loyalties", S02E19, OAD 7/25/95 *spoilers*

[gchance]

Guide page: http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countr...guide/041.html

I owe an apology to all youse guys. With the holiday coupled with being sick (EXTREMELY sick, worst I've been in many years), I didn't get a chance to post the threads. So it's time for catchup.

Mainly I'm just posting the thread, since I'm playing catchup at work right now. I also need to rewatch, but this is one of those I'll have lots to say about.

Greg

[gchance]

Man, I figured someone would have said something by now.

- As the show begins, Garibaldi wants to bring Talia into the plot against Clark
- Lyta Alexander? Woo!
- Man, did Lyta take acting lessons from Talia during her time away? Sheesh!
- Lyta's been involved with the revolution on Mars
- Delenn & Sheridan sittin' in a... oh, nevermind.
- One of my favorite characters has returned: Ivanova's blue teddy!
- Garibaldi's obviously unhappy with Zack being involved with the Nightwatch
- Interesting. Talia's in bed and reaches over at the empty spot because...
- "I woke up last night and you were gone." Hi. What is this?
- Ivanova's spent her entire life hiding the fact that she's a latent telepath. If the Psi Corps were to find out, she could face a fate similar to her mother's.
- With Ivanova's revelation, part of Sheridan's earlier vision has now been interpreted
- Garibaldi, true to character, the wiseguy as usual
- So Talia was the sleeper agent? More on this in a sec.
- Kosh, exposing his Schwartz to someone yet again
- Wait, was that the sound of

Spoiler:

wings?

The Talia thing... I've mentioned this in threads before, but I'm not sure if it was a B5 thread or not. It seems that in TV shows and movies, someone is either "good" or "bad", and not much in between. Usually JMS has been EXTREMELY good at not doing this, but with Talia I really think he blew it.

Once Talia's sleeper personality came out, she's now "bad". Not just viewing things differently, but "bad". Bad to the point of insulting someone for no other reason than to insult them. "See? I'm evil! I insulted you! Hah!" I just never find that realistic, and think JMS sort of blew it here.

Now you can all chime in.

Greg

[dylking]

Originally Posted by gchance

The Talia thing... I've mentioned this in threads before, but I'm not sure if it was a B5 thread or not. It seems that in TV shows and movies, someone is either "good" or "bad", and not much in between. Usually JMS has been EXTREMELY good at not doing this, but with Talia I really think he blew it.

Once Talia's sleeper personality came out, she's now "bad". Not just viewing things differently, but "bad". Bad to the point of insulting someone for no other reason than to insult them. "See? I'm evil! I insulted you! Hah!" I just never find that realistic, and think JMS sort of blew it here.

Now you can all chime in.

Greg

(Just waited for you to start the thread)

I dunno about your thoughts about Talia. Bester appears to be 'bad', why can't the real Talia? Talia could certainly be a vindictive little bitch - I've known a few in my time. Maybe she LIKED twisting the knife in Susan's heart.

[BeanMeScot]

This one I actually wrote some notes for.

Lost - they were in bed together but maybe they had sex maybe they just slept together. You know, slept... In Lost it was obvious what had happened, here I am not so sure. There was definately a lesbian vibe going on but it was rather sudden and short lived. Hard to tell if they acted on it although JMS was playing that they were feeling it. It seemed like Talia wasn't interested in spending the night again. It would have been interesting to see where the whole Taila/Susan thing would have gone had Talia stayed herself.

What about Talia's powers? What was the point of her getting these special powers if she was just going to become evil? I'm surprised what's his name, the psychic that ascended and gave her special powers, didn't realize what was going on with her and fix it. As powerful as he obviously became, he should have been able to do that for her.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Originally Posted by BeanMeScot

What about Talia's powers? What was the point of her getting these special powers if she was just going to become evil?

I think the actress left the show. In the next season,

Spoiler:

Lyta, the other telepath, suddenly gets similar enhancements, so clearly it was a significant plot point that JMS didn't feel like just dropping when Talia left.

[Mars Rocket]

Originally Posted by BeanMeScot

I'm surprised what's his name, the psychic that ascended and gave her special powers, didn't realize what was going on with her and fix it. As powerful as he obviously became, he should have been able to do that for her.

That was my initial reaction as well - I can't imagine how the Psicorp could create a sleeper agent that even *he* couldn't detect. Also, the whole "Talia is really evil" thing came out of nowhere and seemed to serve no purpose other than to scare the rest of the crew into being more paranoid.

The lesbian innuendo also seemed out of place. It was interesting, but would be more interesting if it had continued.

Finally, Zack's attitude towards the Nightwatch seems to be one of complete ignorance. It's almost as if he's happy to be stupid. You'd think Garibaldi would be surrounding himself with people who actually *thought* about their actions once in a while. When the denouement of that situation occurs I'll be glad it's finally over.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Originally Posted by Mars Rocket

The lesbian innuendo also seemed out of place. It was interesting, but would be more interesting if it had continued.

Well, it had been building for a while. I think again, the story was betrayed by the actress's leaving.

[BeanMeScot]

Originally Posted by Rob Helmerichs

Well, it had been building for a while. I think again, the story was betrayed by the actress's leaving.

I wasn't getting a lesbian vibe prior to this episode. That they were becoming friends, yes, even close friends, but that can be a prelude or an end to itself depending on the participants. This episode, it came on strong and definately lesbian. I wonder why JMS chose to amp that up just to get rid of 1/2 of the equation?

[ksmelcer]

Originally Posted by gchance

The Talia thing... I've mentioned this in threads before, but I'm not sure if it was a B5 thread or not. It seems that in TV shows and movies, someone is either "good" or "bad", and not much in between. Usually JMS has been EXTREMELY good at not doing this, but with Talia I really think he blew it.

Once Talia's sleeper personality came out, she's now "bad". Not just viewing things differently, but "bad". Bad to the point of insulting someone for no other reason than to insult them. "See? I'm evil! I insulted you! Hah!" I just never find that realistic, and think JMS sort of blew it here.

Greg

The way I saw it, this is an artificial personality, specifically created to be loyal to the corp. Add to that all the frustration of being submerged most of the time, I can easily see Talia 2.0 being a "vindictive bitch".

To me, this episode is where the series really starts to take off. Perhaps some of it was the fact of the PTEN screwy air schedule. They put in a 6 month break before showing the last four S2 episodes in the US and then adding insult to injury, PTEN showed these episodes in the UK in July but the US had to wait until October.

Of course, one of the best parts is the return of Lyta. Pat Tallman may not be the best actress around, but I always felt she fit the overall cast ensemble much better than Andrea Thomson. The fact that she's very easy on the eyes doesn't hurt either.

-- Ken

[gchance]

Originally Posted by dylking

(Just waited for you to start the thread)

I dunno about your thoughts about Talia. Bester appears to be 'bad', why can't the real Talia? Talia could certainly be a vindictive little bitch - I've known a few in my time. Maybe she LIKED twisting the knife in Susan's heart.

Right, that's my point. Bester bothered me to some extent as well. "Look at me! I'm evil! Watch as I step on puppies! SEE?!?! EVIL!"

Originally Posted by Mars Rocket

That was my initial reaction as well - I can't imagine how the Psicorp could create a sleeper agent that even *he* couldn't detect. Also, the whole "Talia is really evil" thing came out of nowhere and seemed to serve no purpose other than to scare the rest of the crew into being more paranoid.

Well, it also served the purpose of a trapdoor to get the actress out of the show. But within the series, I agree it was out of place.

Originally Posted by Mars Rocket

The lesbian innuendo also seemed out of place. It was interesting, but would be more interesting if it had continued.

I agree that it would have been interesting, especially given the climate in 1995. Had Ellen Degeneres come out yet, or the characters on Roseanne appeared?

Originally Posted by Mars Rocket

Finally, Zack's attitude towards the Nightwatch seems to be one of complete ignorance. It's almost as if he's happy to be stupid. You'd think Garibaldi would be surrounding himself with people who actually *thought* about their actions once in a while. When the denouement of that situation occurs I'll be glad it's finally over.

I've long talked about Zack's stupidity. Duhhhhhh. But then again, we've all known people that ARE that stupid, and I think that's why I do like the character. It was great in this episode when Sheridan called him in, looked at him for a second, and said, "That'll be all." Probably blew Zack's mind for a few weeks on that one.

Originally Posted by ksmelcer

The way I saw it, this is an artificial personality, specifically created to be loyal to the corp. Add to that all the frustration of being submerged most of the time, I can easily see Talia 2.0 being a "vindictive bitch".

I guess it wouldn't have bothered me so much had it not been done earlier in the series as well. It's more than just "vindictive bitch", it's Dr. Evil.

Originally Posted by ksmelcer

To me, this episode is where the series really starts to take off. Perhaps some of it was the fact of the PTEN screwy air schedule. They put in a 6 month break before showing the last four S2 episodes in the US and then adding insult to injury, PTEN showed these episodes in the UK in July but the US had to wait until October.

Oh, believe me, I was right there with you. Look at the airdates, it was 2 months between Confessions & Lamentations and this one, and for what? ONE episode. Then another THREE months for the final two. And people think the wait for Lost is bad.

Originally Posted by ksmelcer

Of course, one of the best parts is the return of Lyta. Pat Tallman may not be the best actress around, but I always felt she fit the overall cast ensemble much better than Andrea Thomson. The fact that she's very easy on the eyes doesn't hurt either.

I whole-heartedly agree. Pat Tallman was mainly a stuntwoman prior to B5. She had only been in a couple other movies as an actress (the lead in the Night of the Living Dead remake immediately comes to mind).

Greg

[JYoung]

Originally Posted by Mars Rocket

Finally, Zack's attitude towards the Nightwatch seems to be one of complete ignorance. It's almost as if he's happy to be stupid.

And Conaway does a great job playing it that way.

Originally Posted by ksmelcer

Of course, one of the best parts is the return of Lyta. Pat Tallman may not be the best actress around, but I always felt she fit the overall cast ensemble much better than Andrea Thomson. The fact that she's very easy on the eyes doesn't hurt either.

I actually like Tallman better than Thompson as an actress.
Thompson also strikes me as someone who needs to go to Delmonico's while Tallman will have a beer with you at the local bar.

I also think that the lesbian angle was a tad out of left field, especially when you factor in Garbaldi, which you'd think would be a better person to get close to, information wise.

[BeanMeScot]

Originally Posted by JYoung

I also think that the lesbian angle was a tad out of left field, especially when you factor in Garbaldi, which you'd think would be a better person to get close to, information wise.

And was definately interested...

[Craigbob]

I was just too busy today to reply.

But now that I'm home.... There are a lot of things going on here and in the thread.

Best place to start Lyta's back. Yummy!!!! (Sorry I've had a thing for her for a long time)

I disagree that Bester is bad, from our perspective (Pro B5/Anti Psi Corp) yes he is. But from his perspective he is a good guy. That is one of teh things I love about his character, it really is a matter of P.O.V.

The hidden personality being evil I can under stand After all we are seeing it right after it was rudely exposed. She was quite upset. As for twisting the knife, I think it was meant to show how vulnerable Ivanova is. She was Just starting to trust again (after having to get over the betrayal of her old lover Malcolm) and then this happens.

I think the relationship between Talia and Susan has been growing. After all who did she go to after the Teep underground railroad went bad? Susan! And people were wondering why she went to Susan after those events.

I agree with Zack being a bit dense, after all he is in the security arena, he should be a bit more observant.

I think things are going to get very interesting from here on out.

[Craigbob]

Originally Posted by JYoung

I also think that the lesbian angle was a tad out of left field, especially when you factor in Garbaldi, which you'd think would be a better person to get close to, information wise.

I disagree. Susan is a bit higher up in the chain of command.

[Hunter Green]

Talia as the body in which Control lives doesn't quite add up in a lot of ways but you kind of have to close your eyes and go with it because, as Rob points out, it was all about a change in the cast that JMS hadn't planned for. And I think some of Talia's being so cartoonishly evil was a bit of JMS's resentment of how the situation played out with the actress spilling over. But it's still a testament to the skill that such an abrupt change in the storyline almost tracks anyway.

I think it's plain enough that both Talia and Ivanova are bisexual, not lesbian. And what's wrong with that? Though the question is open: is Talia really bisexual at all, or was she just, as she put it, saying and doing what she had to to get closer to Susan? It's kind of a moot point, really.

As to the Nightwatch, my impression the first time through was that the Nightwatch and the Ministry of Peace was too obviously evil from the first minute, subversive and totalitarian. I wanted them to be more ambiguous: something that might be a good thing gone bad, or something, to make more plausible how good people got seduced into it. But the red flags were up from the very beginning, so Zack at least just comes off as as a jerk for missing the obvious.

On this watching, I feel like there is some stuff there to depict them that way, and to make Zack's willing complicity more believable. But it kind of got lost in the audience saying "ah hah, I'm so clever, I spotted the trap!". JMS could have written the insidious part a little more subtly at first, though, I still think. We should have been several episodes into the story of the Ministry while people were still arguing whether it was a good-guy thing or a bad-guy thing. As it is, everyone uniformly puts them into the bad-guy column after this episode.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Originally Posted by Hunter Green

Talia as Control doesn't quite add up in a lot of ways but you kind of have to close your eyes and go with it because, as Rob points out, it was all about a change in the cast that JMS hadn't planned for. And I think some of Talia's being so cartoonishly evil was a bit of JMS's resentment of how the situation played out with the actress spilling over.

Maybe, but as a writer he was in a difficult spot. First, it's not really easy to get across (to most people, I suspect) the distinction between a double-agent pretending to be one thing when she's really another, and a telepathically-implanted, completely separate personality. He had to write evil-Talia so she was distinct enough from regular-Talia that the point would get across, in just a few minutes. And he was further hampered by the fact that Andrea Thompson is, let's face it, a very limited actress. Her character evolved considerably over the course of the series, but Thompson's performance was always pretty much the same--cool and distant. So evil-Talia also had to be distinct enough from regular-Talia so that Thompson's cool and distant performance wouldn't paper over the distinction.

So yeah, it was pretty over-wrought. But had it been much LESS over-wrought, I think a lot of the point would have been lost.

[gchance]

Originally Posted by Rob Helmerichs

He had to write evil-Talia so she was distinct enough from regular-Talia that the point would get across, in just a few minutes.

I suppose, but to some extent I still don't buy it. We've already seen two erased personalities (the guy who abducted Sinclair in S1 and the serial killer Talia scanned), plus an implanted personality of sorts (the "free mars" guy). I think the audience would have been ready to accept a new personality.

Then again, audiences can be stupid and absent minded. In a perfect world we wouldn't have to have "previously on" segments and flashbacks, giving complete surprise when things get brought up again.

Greg

[BitbyBlit]

Well, the other thing they needed to do was give New-Talia no redeeming qualities so that the rest of the crew, particularly Ivanova, would have no reason to want to try to save her. While it might have been over the top for even New-Talia, it did help to make the quick cutting of ties of Old-Talia's friends more realistic.

If you're going to exaggerate a reaction, better to do it with the fake personality than the series regulars.

[JYoung]

Originally Posted by Craigbob

I disagree. Susan is a bit higher up in the chain of command.

Susan may be one step up on the ladder, but who really knows more secrets that can used against someone?
The second in command or the Security Chief?
Garabaldi is the guy who knows just about everything about everybody.
He also knows more about people's coming and goings than Ivanova does.
If someone is going to know about someone secrets first, Garbaldi is the likelier person.

But a Garabaldi/Talia hookup doesn't have quite the same titillation factor that an Ivanova/Talia hookup does.....

[Craigbob]

Originally Posted by Hunter Green

Talia as Control doesn't quite add up in a lot of ways but you kind of have to close your eyes and go with it because, as Rob points out, it was all about a change in the cast that JMS hadn't planned for. And I think some of Talia's being so cartoonishly evil was a bit of JMS's resentment of how the situation played out with the actress spilling over. But it's still a testament to the skill that such an abrupt change in the storyline almost tracks anyway.

I think it's plain enough that both Talia and Ivanova are bisexual, not lesbian. And what's wrong with that? Though the question is open: is Talia really bisexual at all, or was she just, as she put it, saying and doing what she had to to get closer to Susan? It's kind of a moot point, really.

As to the Nightwatch, my impression the first time through was that the Nightwatch and the Ministry of Peace was too obviously evil from the first minute, subversive and totalitarian. I wanted them to be more ambiguous: something that might be a good thing gone bad, or something, to make more plausible how good people got seduced into it. But the red flags were up from the very beginning, so Zack at least just comes off as as a jerk for missing the obvious.

On this watching, I feel like there is some stuff there to depict them that way, and to make Zack's willing complicity more believable. But it kind of got lost in the audience saying "ah hah, I'm so clever, I spotted the trap!". JMS could have written the insidious part a little more subtly at first, though, I still think. We should have been several episodes into the story of the Ministry while people were still arguing whether it was a good-guy thing or a bad-guy thing. As it is, everyone uniformly puts them into the bad-guy column after this episode.

Where do you have the idea that Talia is Control? While that was definitely hinted at, it was never made final. Plus it is not Talia we are talking about but another completely different personality separate from the Talia that we've come to know.


You also have to remember that we are seeing Nightwatch/Minipax through the eyes of an outsider, not someone in the middle of it. Not to mention that we have recent (Well relative to B5 staff) with that kind of organization with WWI and the McCarthy cap in the early - mid 20th century.

[Craigbob]

Originally Posted by BeanMeScot

This one I actually wrote some notes for.

Lost - they were in bed together but maybe they had sex maybe they just slept together. You know, slept... In Lost it was obvious what had happened, here I am not so sure. There was definately a lesbian vibe going on but it was rather sudden and short lived. Hard to tell if they acted on it although JMS was playing that they were feeling it. It seemed like Talia wasn't interested in spending the night again. It would have been interesting to see where the whole Taila/Susan thing would have gone had Talia stayed herself.

What about Talia's powers? What was the point of her getting these special powers if she was just going to become evil? I'm surprised what's his name, the psychic that ascended and gave her special powers, didn't realize what was going on with her and fix it. As powerful as he obviously became, he should have been able to do that for her.

Her getting powers was simply to put her in the same place that Lyta would've been in had she been able to stay after the pilot. Now with Talia gone and Lyta back that is not relevant.

Irornhart was dealing with his own issues and I don't think really had a chance to scan Talia and find the personality to fix it.

[Craigbob]

Originally Posted by JYoung

Susan may be one step up on the ladder, but who really knows more secrets that can used against someone?
The second in command or the Security Chief?
Garabaldi is the guy who knows just about everything about everybody.
He also knows more about people's coming and goings than Ivanova does.
If someone is going to know about someone secrets first, Garbaldi is the likelier person.

But a Garabaldi/Talia hookup doesn't have quite the same titillation factor that an Ivanova/Talia hookup does.....

You might be surprised about who knows more secrets.

[busyba]

Originally Posted by Craigbob

You also have to remember that we are seeing Nightwatch/Minipax through the eyes of an outsider, not someone in the middle of it. Not to mention that we have recent (Well relative to B5 staff) with that kind of organization with WWI and the McCarthy cap in the early - mid 20th century.

I think there are quotes from JMS somewhere to the effect of "yeah, people say that Nightwatch and Minipax is so unrealistic, like, 'that could never happen in real life'... except it has, more than once, including in our country."

[doom1701]

One thing that I didn't get in this episode--Lyta throws the password at Talia, and Evil Talia tries to kill them all. Then, in the next scene, Evil Talia is just packing up her stuff and getting ready to leave. The possibility of just throwing her in the brig until the universe ends didn't occur to them? She tried to kill the senior staff!

[busyba]

Originally Posted by doom1701

One thing that I didn't get in this episode--Lyta throws the password at Talia, and Evil Talia tries to kill them all. Then, in the next scene, Evil Talia is just packing up her stuff and getting ready to leave. The possibility of just throwing her in the brig until the universe ends didn't occur to them? She tried to kill the senior staff!

She's too well connected to hold. Also, trying any harder to hold her would bring additional scruitny upon themselves that they aren't necessarily prepared to withstand at this point.

[aintnosin]

Originally Posted by BeanMeScot

I wasn't getting a lesbian vibe prior to this episode. That they were becoming friends, yes, even close friends, but that can be a prelude or an end to itself depending on the participants. This episode, it came on strong and definately lesbian. I wonder why JMS chose to amp that up just to get rid of 1/2 of the equation?

The actresses had been told from the beginning their characters were going to romantically involved, but JMS thought he had 5 years to develop the story. Then Andrea Thompson flies the coup and he had to pay off the "lesbian" angle in 40 minutes of TV time.

[Hunter Green]

Originally Posted by Craigbob

Where do you have the idea that Talia is Control? While that was definitely hinted at, it was never made final.

Lyta specifically says that the double agent is known as Control, and by the end of the same episode, reveals that Talia is the double agent. Sure, there could be some disinformation going on here, but in the absence of anything contradicting it, I think that's a pretty certain equation.

[gchance]

Originally Posted by Hunter Green

Lyta specifically says that the double agent is known as Control, and by the end of the same episode, reveals that Talia is the double agent. Sure, there could be some disinformation going on here, but in the absence of anything contradicting it, I think that's a pretty certain equation.

I think what he was getting at is "Talia" is not Control, "Control" (the implanted personality) is Control. Talia is Talia. There's a completely new personality there.

Greg

[Craigbob]

Originally Posted by gchance

I think what he was getting at is "Talia" is not Control, "Control" (the implanted personality) is Control. Talia is Talia. There's a completely new personality there.

Greg

Abso-Fraggin-Lutely

[BitbyBlit]

Originally Posted by Craigbob

You also have to remember that we are seeing Nightwatch/Minipax through the eyes of an outsider, not someone in the middle of it. Not to mention that we have recent (Well relative to B5 staff) with that kind of organization with WWI and the McCarthy cap in the early - mid 20th century.

Not only that, but we are also seeing Nighwatch through the eyes of a television viewer. A lot of "signs" that seem obvious in a television series are not so obvious in real life.

A television series, particularly one like B5, shows each scene for a specific reason. As viewers, we are taught to evaluate each scene for clues to what is going on. In real life, there are many things we encounter that are completely innocuous and serve no purpose in the grand scheme of things. Thus, it is much easier to miss the signs because life is not simply a snapshot of all the significant events.