The future of HME Development???

csell · 07-24-2008, 10:34 AM

I'm not really sure what the purpose of this thread really is. I guess its just to try and start a dialog about HME development and where its heading...

When the announcement first came out about HME and the ability to develop applications for it, I thought it was a genius idea that would be a huge hit. Now years later, I can't help but wonder what went wrong. It seems like there is no interest at all, from either the developer side or the user side. And there certainly seems to be ZERO interest from Tivo, which seems to have completely abandoned it, which is a shame.

I am the developer of the Sports Score apps and while the app did accomplish the main goals I set, I still had much larger plans for it. But with such apathy around HME, I just kind of lost interest in it and really haven't done any more work on it.

My question is - what can be done to change this and improve its future? Or is there no real future with HME? Personally, I believe Tivo needs to be more involved. They need to offer incentives to developers and allow users to access these apps in a much easier fashion, such as providing servers for hosting the applications. Also, revenue making possibilities need to be addressed, for both Tivo and the developers. In the age of advertising, there should certainly be a way to incorporate ads into these apps to make developing them financially worth it. In a perfect world, everyone would make these apps for free and share them. However, they do take a lot of time and effort to develop, so some financial incentive is needed...

Anyway, this was just an attempt to open a dialog about HME and where its going, if anywhere. Do people out there still care? Are people still trying to develop apps? Does Tivo pay attention to the apps being developed? Let's here what you have to say!

windracer · 07-24-2008, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csell

And there certainly seems to be ZERO interest from Tivo, which seems to have completely abandoned it, which is a shame.

I don't know about that ... all of their recent additions (Unbox, SwivelSearch, YouTube, etc.) are HME apps. They're certainly using it internally.

From what I understand though, they've been letting the public SDK languish, which is why there seem to be no new third-party applications anymore. Even PlayTeeVee, which was all HME apps, is shutting down.

It's sad, I agree.

gonzotek · 07-24-2008, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windracer

I don't know about that ... all of their recent additions (Unbox, SwivelSearch, YouTube, etc.) are HME apps. They're certainly using it internally.

From what I understand though, they've been letting the public SDK languish, which is why there seem to be no new third-party applications anymore. Even PlayTeeVee, which was all HME apps, is shutting down.

It's sad, I agree.

Well, perrce just posted a very promising-looking HME app called Harmonium Music Player in the Home Media forum. So 3rd party interest hasn't entirely dried up, yet. But if you look at this forum's posts over the last few months, you'll see several threads started by him where he essentially talks to himself and a few other 3rd party developers, discussing this or that issue.

It's a shame TiVo hasn't supported HME more for 3rd parties. As you said, it's obvious they have a team using/developing it internally, from all the latest Amazon/Swivel Search/YouTube/Web Video features released in the past 6 months. Would answering the few forum posts and sf.net mailing list posts related to HME really take that much time from the HME dev team? Is there some reason TiVo can't even publically comment on plans for the public SDK (ie. "We do still plan on releasing a new version of it, but only when it's ready"; or "There will be no more public releases of the SDK")? Just the streaming/h.264 support built for YouTube would give potential developers awesome opportunities to bring new apps/content to TiVo.

wmcbrine · 07-24-2008, 03:11 PM

And here I was already planning to release the next version of "HME for Python" today. Now I really have to.

s2kdave · 07-25-2008, 10:36 AM

What they need to do is create an app store similar to what apple, microsoft, sony, nintendo, etc.. do so that apps can be purchased and either downloaded to your tivo to be run locally or referenced off the internet. This would create a lot more apps since it would give developers a standard way to monetize on their apps (if they chose to). And tivo could even take a percentage off the top so to support managing the API and infrastructure for the app store.

They really need to open up their eyes a little to what other similar products are doing that seem to be working out and adding a lot of incentives to the end user.

windracer · 07-25-2008, 10:40 AM

apps.tv is kinda like an app "store."

csell · 07-25-2008, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windracer

apps.tv is kinda like an app "store."

True, but they do not host the application. A developer is required to host the application on their own public web server. That cost money and most developers aren't willing to do that. Applications can also be downloaded from that site and installed on a local machine, but that really eliminates the common Tivo user who does not have the know-how to install the app themselves.

s2kdave · 07-25-2008, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windracer

apps.tv is kinda like an app "store."

Yeah, but it needs to be integrated into the tivo for a seamless experience. Most non-technical people don't even know about apps.tv. And they do need the ability to have locally run apps (in a sandbox of course). There's a lot more involved than just providing a directory of apps.

csell · 07-25-2008, 01:34 PM

Has anyone ever heard of how many users Tivo believes there are for HME apps, besides the ones that come with Tivo like Amazon Unboxed?

Also, has anyone tried any revenue making techniques for an HME app, such as an affiliate program or advertising?

perrce · 07-25-2008, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csell

Also, has anyone tried any revenue making techniques for an HME app, such as an affiliate program or advertising?

The only thing I've seen that comes close is AudioFaucet. In theory it's been in an open beta for the last four or so years before it goes retail. As far as I can tell they've stopped development, though. Maybe they realized they wouldn't be able to make a buck on it. Dunno.

windracer · 07-25-2008, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csell

Also, has anyone tried any revenue making techniques for an HME app, such as an affiliate program or advertising?

I donated to the Galleon SourceForge project, back in the day.

TiVo Steve · 07-25-2008, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windracer

I donated to the Galleon SourceForge project, back in the day.

Same here.

How about a HME app for just Shoutcast?

apps-tv · 07-25-2008, 07:05 PM

I've been doing a bunch of thinking recently about how to revive apps.tv which has been pretty much dormant for the past 2 years or so.

I think the best option may be to try a shared-revenue advertising approach. Probably doing a "pre-roll" advertising app that gets shown for 10-15 seconds before launching the selected app.

Technically this is no problem, of course getting someone to pay for adverts is a different matter. But maybe the prospect of making a little bit of money would entice some new development. The other problem is that its not a "clickable" environment so that the advertisement is just a static image (maybe a way to launch the advertisers app as a "click"?). But I don't think that's a compelling solution for an advertisers.

apps.tv is at about 10,600 subscribers now, it probably needs to hit at least 100,000 before it gets interesting to anyone.

I had thought about providing some hosting, but I don't think that is the reason behind not there not being many apps. Hosting is cheap, you can get a root access VPS for $20 a month from someone like slicehost.com that is more than adequate to run several hme apps.

The problem with hosting is that you need to essentially provide someone with a sandbox where they have root access to be able to stick files, use mysql and any other tools they need to install. I still think the best model is that the developers host their own apps and there's one central place for users to subscribe to them.

The other option is a pay for access model, maybe for $5.00 the user gets access to your app. Or how about per per play, maybe a penny per launch?
Of course getting people to put money into an account would be the biggest hurdle.

Anyway, that's some of the thoughts I've been considering. I'm hoping to have some of this up and running on apps.tv over the next couple months (If I stop being so lazy).

I'd like to ultimately make apps.tv the de-facto apps store and am definitely open to suggestions.

wmcbrine · 07-25-2008, 07:53 PM

I don't see people paying for TiVo apps, now or in the future. This isn't the iPhone market. HME is -- let's face it -- a very limited platform. Anything you can do via HME, you can probably do better via your home PC, via free software or just the web. And the convenience factor isn't worth paying for, when your PC is nearly as handy as your TiVo. You can't carry your TiVo with you wherever you go.

And I'm fine with all of that. I'm happy to treat HME as a hobbyist platform, and develop for it just for fun. I don't expect anything back. I like apps.tv the way it is (and I consider 10,000 users an ample audience).

But when you say $20 a month hosting is cheap, well, it is for a business; not so much for a hobby, at least not to me. I haven't really gotten into the issue yet, though.

csell · 07-28-2008, 02:00 PM

I personally believe there is a market for selling these applications, as long as they are of good quality and there is a need for the product...

Going back many years, well before Tivo, I used to always say that I wish there was some method to get access sports scores from your television set. I used to HATE saturday afternoons during the fall when I wanted to see a score from my college football team and I had to site through hundreds of scores scrolling on the bottom of ESPN. Sometimes it would take 15-20 minutes before your team came up and you just prayed that there wasn't a commercial break right before it was to be displayed. I used to think there was a huge area of opportunity for some way to get sport scores immediately (and I mean at the convience of while watching tv, and not having to get up and go to your pc). At the time, I would have paid a decent amount for something to solved this problem...

Well years later came and Tivo HME made this possible so I took advantage of it and wrote a program to do just that. Now I'm obviously biased, but I would certainly pay money for the program. I would not pay a reoccuring monthly charge, but I would do a one time cost for the application, especially if it was only a few bucks, like $4.99.

So I do believe if you make quality apps that are appropriate to the intended audience, people will pay a one time small amount for it. An app store that allows you to not only to purchase it but also host the application is necessary. I'm not sure what a reasonable price would have to be, but I do think in the $4 - $7 range seems reasonable. Now the question is - is this enough to make it worthwhile. Obviously there are two parties involved - the developer and the store owner. The store owner has overhead, such as server cost. The developer's main cost is his time. I know I for one would be interested. My sports score app is FAR from being commericially ready, but if there was serious interest, I would get back to developing it and go from there....

morac · 08-16-2008, 09:11 PM

My suspicion on TiVo's lack of public support for the HME API is that they don't want the competition. TiVo obviously has deals with Amazon and RealNetworks and probably Google. If Joe Shmow could write an HME application as good or better than the one TiVo wrote and people could easily access it, then TiVo could lose revenue.

Unless TiVo has a way to make a profit on apps written by 3rd parties, they have no incentive to release the latest HME API to the public so for all intents and purposes public HME development is dead.

gonzotek · 08-17-2008, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by morac

My suspicion on TiVo's lack of public support for the HME API is that they don't want the competition. TiVo obviously has deals with Amazon and RealNetworks and probably Google. If Joe Shmow could write an HME application as good or better than the one TiVo wrote and people could easily access it, then TiVo could lose revenue.

Unless TiVo has a way to make a profit on apps written by 3rd parties, they have no incentive to release the latest HME API to the public so for all intents and purposes public HME development is dead.

People need an active subscription to TiVo to access HME apps at all, so they get guaranteed revenue right there. Why release the sdk as open source in the first place, if they didn't want to encourage 3rd parties to take an interest in the platform?

I can understand them prioritizing internal and contracted development over the public sdk, on the other hand.

colin1497 · 08-26-2008, 09:04 AM

Without reading this forum, how would any Tivo users actually find any of this stuff (apps.tv, www.playteevee.com, etc.)? I mean I get Lexus ads on my Tivo, but not ads for any of these services. If Tivo really wanted this stuff to take off they would offer discounted advertising to these guys, but really the apps aren't that great. Tivo really needs a remote keyboard or something for the apps to do anything, but again, why not just use your PC?

perrce · 08-26-2008, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin1497

...but really the apps aren't that great. Tivo really needs a remote keyboard or something for the apps to do anything, but again, why not just use your PC?

In general, I agree with you -- not that the apps aren't great, but that the domain of apps that are appropriate to the TiVo platform is limited. If I want to check the weather or how my stocks are doing, a PC with keyboard is probably going to be easier to use than the TiVo. But if you want to use resources that are already connected to your TiVo (i.e. home theater), then the TiVo platform makes a lot more sense. Want to play MP3 music through your stereo? Use the TiVo. Want to show vacation photos on your big-screen TV? Use the TiVo. Want to show your entire family that funny video of Uncle Morty that you uploaded to YouTube? Use the TiVo. That's why I'll never understand why TiVo didn't roll out a collection of high-quality multi-media HME apps years ago. There is no reason why Harmonium (my app) should have a niche to fill. It should have been filled by TiVo corporation years ago in their effort to make TiVo *the* home multimedia system.