Why the TiVo S3/HD should be DLNA/UPnP Client Certified

[TexasGrillChef]

Why the TiVo S3/HD should be DLNA/UPnP Client Certified

DLNA = Digital Living Network Alliance.

This Alliance allows for interoperbility between servers & clients no matter who the device/software is produced by.

A DLNA UPnP servers will serve out Video, Photos & Music along a certified spec.

DLNA UPnP clients will "Play" the Video, Photos &/or Music from DLNA UPnP servers.

Servers &/or Clients come in form of Hardware &/or Software.

Sony's Playstation 3 is a DLNA UPnP certfied client.

Most NAS (Networked Attached Storage) systems are now DLNA UPnP certfied. NAS systems today can be purchased for as little as $89 without drives. NAS devices can support anywhere from 1 hard drive to up to 16 hard drives. Some even support RAID 0, 1, 5, 6, & 10.

The use of a DLNA UPnP certified NAS along with a DLNA UPnP certified client (Such as the Playstation 3) allows for one to "STREAM" video, photos, & music WITHOUT the need for a computer of any type.

NAS servers are "Greener" (Use less electricity) than a computer, & are more "STABLE" & reliable then a computer. NAS devices crash 1:5,000 compared to a computer running ANY version of windows.

So now you ask... sounds good... so why should a TiVO S3/HD support DLNA UPnP as a client?

Because NO computer would be needed. Saves on electricity & more stable then a computer running any version of windows. Keep in mind that TiVo Desktop does NOT currently run on a MAC or Linux. So don't even try to compare.

No TiVo Desktop would be needed. Other than to transfer a "Show" to your computer then to your NAS.

The S3/HD IF DLNA certified, would be able to "PLAY" the files (Music, Video, Photo) straight from the NAS.

The only drawback to using a DLNA UPnP Certified NAS is the Video file types are more limited than TiVo Desktop currently supports. If one has a Video in a file type not supported by DLNA, one would have to convert it first.

Although in all practicality, one should convert their files to MPG2 for a TiVo anyways. As TiVo Desktop &/or even pyTiVo still must convert it to MPG2 anyways. (Thus the slower transfer time than compared to a straight MPG2 file)

Last reason why.... Currently 95% of the "Affordable" NAS devices currently on the market are in fact allready DLNA UPnP certfied servers.

There are currently at least 15 DLNA UPnP certified clients on the market as well. Otherwise known as "Media Players". The Sony Playstation 3 is another.
The NEXT version of the Xbox 360 will also be a DLNA UPnP certified client.

One other point... TiVo being DLNA UPnP client certified would have no effect on cablelabs certification as well. Clients only play. They don't serve.

How many others would like to see TiVo be DLNA certified?

TGC

edit: For more information about DLNA... go to http://www.dlna.org

Oh and I am NOT suggesting that TiVo drop current pyTivo/TD+ support in favor of DLNA/UPnP.... Just to add DLNA/UPnP as well as current capabilities.

[HDTiVo]

You make me nostalgic.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=290155

[magnus]

Yep, my NAS (DNS-323) is not currently certified for DLNA... would be great if it was.

[ZXTT95]

Originally Posted by TexasGrillChef

NAS devices crash 1:5,000 compared to a computer running ANY version of windows.

Is this something you made up or do you have some evidence?

Edit: I should add that I don't have a problem with NAS and any support that makes streaming easier is a good thing.

[ciper]

Unfortunately it will never happen. Tivo has no interest in developing features that are actually useful. They would rather give us Youtube videos.

[TexasGrillChef]

Originally Posted by magnus

Yep, my NAS (DNS-323) is not currently certified for DLNA... would be great if it was.

Get the Firmware/Bios update from Dlink. It is now DLNA certified, or they now claim.

TGC

[TexasGrillChef]

Originally Posted by ZXTT95

Is this something you made up or do you have some evidence?

Edit: I should add that I don't have a problem with NAS and any support that makes streaming easier is a good thing.

2 or 3 years ago when inexpensive NAS devices were coming to market for SOHO purposes. Cnet did an article about the reliability of it. I pulled from memory, and then cut in half. Just to be on the safe side. I believe they are claiming even a better reliability than I have claimed.

I do know this. I am having to reboot my windows machine at least 5 or 6 times a week.

I have 4 NAS devices. I haven't rebooted a single one in the last 6 months. Except for one NAS, which had SW/FW upgrade.

TGC

[TexasGrillChef]

Originally Posted by ciper

Unfortunately it will never happen. Tivo has no interest in developing features that are actually useful. They would rather give us Youtube videos.

I believe once the demand is there they will. They believe their is a big demand for YouTube Videos.

TGC

[ciper]

Originally Posted by TexasGrillChef

I believe once the demand is there they will. They believe their is a big demand for YouTube Videos.

They also believe the demand is there for a free space indicator and M-Card support on the S3 but do not plan to do it. Second they believe QAM mapping has no demand even though everyone I've tried to sell a Tivo says "why can my TV see the channels but the Tivo can't (without a cable card)"

[ilh]

Originally Posted by TexasGrillChef

do know this. I am having to reboot my windows machine at least 5 or 6 times a week.

Wow. My XP machine is up for 30+ days at a time, and then only reboots to install critical updates.

[ciper]

Originally Posted by ilh

Wow. My XP machine is up for 30+ days at a time, and then only reboots to install critical updates.

Obviously you aren't running the Tivo Desktop software
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=380236

[ilh]

I am, but I turn off the server when I'm not using it.

[ciper]

Originally Posted by ilh

I am, but I turn off the server when I'm not using it.

Doesn't your statement sort of support the OP's point? He would like a stable interface on the Tivo that requires no user intervention, proprietary software or running PC.

[ilh]

I was just commenting on XP rebooting several times a week. If it is due to TiVo Desktop, blame TiVo, not XP.

I think it would be great to have NAS support for TiVos. I would love to have a remote RAID-1 or -5 box for reliable storage for my TiVo.

[leeherman]

I have a Buffalo Terastation Live 2TB.

I use a Netgear EVA-8000 (which is DLNA/UPnP) to access music/photos/video on the Terastation.

I only keep an old PIII PC as a dedicated Tivo Server because Tivo can't access my NAS directly.

I would be THRILLED if DLNA/UPnP functionality could be added!

LH

[rodalpho]

I don't care about DLNA/PNP, I actually rather hate that technology. I would like it to mount SMB shares and stream 1080p h.264 video with AC3 audio. Also xvid and divx.

None of the poll options apply to me, so I didn't vote.

[TexasGrillChef]

Originally Posted by ciper

They also believe the demand is there for a free space indicator and M-Card support on the S3 but do not plan to do it. Second they believe QAM mapping has no demand even though everyone I've tried to sell a Tivo says "why can my TV see the channels but the Tivo can't (without a cable card)"

Hmmm I agree it would be nice for those features as well. IMHO though, I don't believe the PROFITABLE demand is there.

As we all know Money talks... BS walks...

TGC

[TexasGrillChef]

Originally Posted by ilh

Wow. My XP machine is up for 30+ days at a time, and then only reboots to install critical updates.

Well I do have to admit... I am in alot of "Beta" test programs and "Beta" test alot of software...

TGC

P.S..... No I am not currently a Beta tester for TiVo. Wish I was though

[TexasGrillChef]

Originally Posted by ilh

I was just commenting on XP rebooting several times a week. If it is due to TiVo Desktop, blame TiVo, not XP.

I think it would be great to have NAS support for TiVos. I would love to have a remote RAID-1 or -5 box for reliable storage for my TiVo.

I currently have several Raid 5 NAS devices, that serve to my TiVo. Just requires a Computer running pyTiVo &/or TD+ as the intermediary server.

TGC

[TexasGrillChef]

Originally Posted by rodalpho

I don't care about DLNA/PNP, I actually rather hate that technology. I would like it to mount SMB shares and stream 1080p h.264 video with AC3 audio. Also xvid and divx.

None of the poll options apply to me, so I didn't vote.

Just curious, not trying to start an argument, or disagree with you. Wondering why you hat DLNA/PNP technology?

TGC

[rodalpho]

It requires a separate server on my desktop like tversity or windows media player, etc. All of them suck to various degrees. SMB mounts just plain work; share the folder and you're done. I played around with DLNA when I got my xbox360 and wasn't impressed. That's why I have a HTPC running XBMC for linux now.

[HDTiVo]

Originally Posted by TexasGrillChef

As we all know Money talks... BS walks...

TGC

Except where TiVo is concerned all too often BS talks and money walks...right out the door.

Unfortunately, I see TiVo strategically positioned in the middle of the desert on all this. Too bad; they could have been leading edge innovators again like 9 years ago.

[rodalpho]

TiVo isn't interested in innovation. They're still small, because they've never been particularly successful, but they're no longer agile.

My S3 is essentially identical to my old 14 hour S1. MRV aside (I don't use it) the core featureset and even the interface is identical. It never ceases to amaze me that over the past 9 years nobody has overtaken TiVo. Nobody else is innovating either!

[ciper]

Originally Posted by rodalpho

TiVo isn't interested in innovation. They're still small, because they've never been particularly successful, but they're no longer agile.
My S3 is essentially identical to my old 14 hour S1. MRV aside (I don't use it) the core featureset and even the interface is identical.

Tivo used to be a bunch of geeks. Now they are ruled by a bunch of suits
Tivo of 98 "I bet we can use linux to make a smart replacement for the VCR"
Tivo of 2008 "Which feature will generate an additional revenue stream"

They aren't even trying to add features that draw new customers. I strongly feel that QAM mapping would create many additional customers. There are plenty of people who pay for basic cable and watch the free digital stations with their generic digital television.

[TolloNodre]

Originally Posted by rodalpho

It requires a separate server on my desktop like tversity or windows media player, etc. All of them suck to various degrees. SMB mounts just plain work; share the folder and you're done. I played around with DLNA when I got my xbox360 and wasn't impressed. That's why I have a HTPC running XBMC for linux now.

+1

[TexasGrillChef]

Originally Posted by rodalpho

It requires a separate server on my desktop like tversity or windows media player, etc. All of them suck to various degrees. SMB mounts just plain work; share the folder and you're done. I played around with DLNA when I got my xbox360 and wasn't impressed. That's why I have a HTPC running XBMC for linux now.

The main point of DLNA/UPnP is NOT to have a computer, or "ANY" software on a computer at all.

The whole reason for a DLNA UPnP certified NAS device.

I TOO don't want to have a "Computer" running "ANY" software, pyTiVo, TD+, Tversity, or any other peice of server software. So I am with you 100% on that front. I don't even want to "serve" out or "share" folders on my desktop computer. Rather just use my computers as a "Client" only system. One of the main but many reasons for NAS devices.

I have 4 NAS devices. 4 Different brands. 2 of them have SMB capability. The other 2 do not. The ones that don't of course cost less then $150. The 2 that do of couse were well over $300 not including Hard drives.

I like the idea of both, & you do make a good point. SMB mounting would be easier. Only problem is, it isn't the LOW COST affordable standard.

Betamax was better than VHS. But it WASN'T cheaper. Betamax lost.

One other interesting note. My more expensive NAS devices have open source coding with "Plug-in" support. THEORETCALLY speaking, someone COULD rewrite pyTiVo &/or TD+ to run directly on the NAS device as well.

The odds of anyone doing so probably won't happen though.

TGC

NAS devices still use less energy then a HTPC & are stll more reliable.

[rodalpho]

Whereever did you find a NAS without SMB support? Do you have that old weird linksys NAS, NSLU-something, with their own wacky implementation of iSCSI that only works on windows?

Anyway, yes, of course supporting a standard like DLNA would be better than tivo's proprietary solution. And I have no problems with DLNA itself; it's a fine standard, supporting metadata, indexing, etc. It's the implementations that are lacking. That's why I prefer plain ol' SMB.

[BrianAZ]

Because Tivo takes so darn long to copy any xvid/divx files from my PC/NAS, I am forced to keep my DLINK DSM-520 hooked up to satisfy my need to immediately begin watching things. Tivo either needs to support streaming from media servers like Twonky/TVersity/etc or significantly speed up the copying (TTCB) so I can start watching right away. I'm not sure what causes it to be so slow. If it's the conversion to .TIVO, there should be a way to have Tivo Desktop batch process new files it sees.

[CuriousMark]

Originally Posted by BrianAZ

Because Tivo takes so darn long to copy any xvid/divx files from my PC/NAS, I am forced to keep my DLINK DSM-520 hooked up to satisfy my need to immediately begin watching things. Tivo either needs to support streaming from media servers like Twonky/TVersity/etc or significantly speed up the copying (TTCB) so I can start watching right away. I'm not sure what causes it to be so slow. If it's the conversion to .TIVO, there should be a way to have Tivo Desktop batch process new files it sees.

Your TiVo cannot play an Xvid/DivX file, it needs MPEG-2. That means you need a device to do the conversion. Currently that would be pyTiVo or TiVo desktop running on a PC. Your D-Link DSM-520 has a dedicated playback chip in it that can recognize those file types directly. No NAS has the horsepower to do an on the fly conversion to MPEG-2, and none have dedicated chips that can do so either.

Twonky sends the xvid or divx stream unmodified to the playback device, which must have the smarts or processing power to play it. All Series 2 TiVos simply do not have the smarts for anything other than MPEG-2. The TiVo Series 3 and HD TiVo have a chip that can handle MP4 and H.264, (but not necessarily xvid and divx), but it isn't active yet. When it is, things like this may become possible.

If a DLNA server was set up to serve only MPEG-2 your TiVo and my S2 could have been made to work with it, but what a nightmare that would be. Can you imagine all the support phone calls and posts here with "why can my DSM520 play my divx files but my TiVo can't"? Such a feature would be a total flop. Until the TiVo hardware can do everything your DSM can, it just isn't in the cards.

Don't rule this out for future TiVo hardware though, if it makes sense, it could happen.

Concerning your speed issues, if you pre-convert all the files to MPEG-2, they will transfer quickly and play immediately. Your computer will not slow them down because it won't have to convert them on the fly. Alternatively, you can even get quick transfers and immediate playback if your computer has plenty of horsepower to do the conversions. Of course, if you restrict yourself to only using MPEG-2 pyTiVo will even work directly on the NAS, although it is still slow on older NASes. Running pyTiVo on my Linkstation serves MPEG-2 video fairly slowly, but I bet a Terastation or HP Media Vault 2 could do it faster than realtime. So NAS solutions are getting closer to reality now, without needing DLNA. It just depends what you are willing to experiment with.

[TexasGrillChef]

Originally Posted by rodalpho

Whereever did you find a NAS without SMB support? Do you have that old weird linksys NAS, NSLU-something, with their own wacky implementation of iSCSI that only works on windows?

Anyway, yes, of course supporting a standard like DLNA would be better than tivo's proprietary solution. And I have no problems with DLNA itself; it's a fine standard, supporting metadata, indexing, etc. It's the implementations that are lacking. That's why I prefer plain ol' SMB.

Alot of the lower end cost units don't have SMB support. The Lower end Buffalo units don't. While the higher end Buffalo units do.

TGC