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Old 01-31-2008, 05:56 PM   #1
Dajad
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Duplicate OTA Channel/Guide Data Problem - Any Ideas

I've mentioned this problem in a few threads before, but I thought I'd finally take some pictures to better explain it. If anyone can help figure out what's up here, or how I can resolve this, please let me know.

I live in Toronto. I subscribe to Guide Data from neighboring Niagra Falls New York ( zip code 14305) because TiVo/Tribune does not yet provide OTA digital guide data for Canadian postal codes.

I purchased my S3 in November of 2006 and from day 1, I've had this dual channel 5-1 problem. As you can see from the attached pictures, there are TWO entries for channel 5-1 (CBC) below. Specifically:
  1. 5-1 ant *CBC Toronto High Definition Television; digital frequency 20; (I'll call it the "DF20" version) - see first attachment Channel_5-1_a.jpg.
  2. 5-1 ant CBLTDT; digital frequency 5 CBC Affiliate; and (I'll call it the "DF5" version) - see third attachment Channel_5-1_c.jpg.

As you can further see from second attachment, Channel_5-1_b.jpg, if I tune to the DF20 version, my TiVo tunes into the channel's programming just fine (in this case a weather forecast) but, if you look at the Guide grid, there is no programming information available.

If, however, I tune to the DF5 version (see the fourth attachment Channel_5-1_d.jpg) I get a blank screen BUT I get the full programming guide.

The net effect of this is twofold:

1. I cannot automatically record from the DF20 version, where the content exists, because there is no guide data for it,

2. I CAN set TiVo to record shows from the DF5 version, BUT when I do the TiVo recording is empty.

I have tried removing each of the DF20 and DF5 versions from my Channel list and that does not solve the problem. Doing so just removes one or the other. It does not align the content from the DF20 version with the guide data for the DF5 version, under any scenario

Does anyone have any ideas?

I'll add the pictures in the posts below:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Channel_5-1_a.jpg (73.7 KB, 67 views)
File Type: jpg Channel_5-1_b.jpg (80.7 KB, 47 views)
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Last edited by Dajad : 08-07-2008 at 01:21 AM.
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Old 01-31-2008, 05:57 PM   #2
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And the next two pictures showing the DF5 situation:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Channel_5-1_c.jpg (73.6 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg Channel_5-1_d.jpg (80.9 KB, 25 views)
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Old 01-31-2008, 10:48 PM   #3
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Well, it's hard for us YANKs to figure out our own ATSC requirements, so I don't expect you'll find a lot of folk willing to wander thru CANUCK telecom regulations.

What happens when you ask channel 5 about this?

Sorry, but good luck!
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Old 01-31-2008, 11:13 PM   #4
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I don't think you have to wonder through anybodys regulations or contact the CBC, it seems like just a strange error in the Tribune database with dual entries for the same channel. If you do a forum search about how to contact Tivo/Tribune for channel lineup errors, I think you'll find there's a way to do that.

EDIT: Here's the link to contact Tivo about lineup problems:
http://customersupport.tivo.com/Lineupform.aspx

Last edited by TolloNodre : 01-31-2008 at 11:19 PM.
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Old 02-01-2008, 11:49 AM   #5
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Thanks TolloNodre:

I did fill in the TiVo Lineup problem form yesterday and I'm delighted that they have responded to me, given me a case number and are proceeding. This does suprise me because in the past when I did the same thing I got no response.

Vstone, this is not a "Cannuck" regulatory issue. Niagra Falls New York residents trying to access and record from this channel will, of course, have the identical problem as I do across the lake. So, there is a state-side interest in TiVo solving this one - and happily it seems like they are taking a shot at it. I'll update this thread when/if this is resolved.

...Dale
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Old 02-01-2008, 12:12 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dajad View Post
Thanks TolloNodre:

I did fill in the TiVo Lineup problem form yesterday and I'm delighted that they have responded to me, given me a case number and are proceeding. This does suprise me because in the past when I did the same thing I got no response.
The case # is automated. I have received several of these and months would go by with no response. I would give it a week or so and call TiVo with your case # if you don't get a response. Although because of your unique circumstances, TiVo might give you the cold shoulder.
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Old 02-01-2008, 12:20 PM   #7
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Thanks rainwater, but the email I received was not an automated email. It was from a real person and she discussed my specific issue in the response. So, I have some high hopes. And, as I mentioned, if this was purely a Canadian issue, yes, I'd expect the cold shoulder as I've gotten in the past. But because this affects their U.S. border state customers equally, I presume they'd want to fix it for them as well.

One thing to mention that I haven't here, but did in this other thread, is that earlier this week TiVo/Tribune added another Canadian OTA station (CFTO - part of the national CTV network) to the U.S. 14305 line-up. So it does appear that they are gradually extending the Up-state New York lineups to include the cross-border digital transmissions. And why wouldn't they? The analogue guide data for Niagara Falls New York includes ALL the Metro Toronto analogue stations. It's only a matter of time before they include all the digital stations - and there are almost a dozen Metro Toronto and Golden Horseshoe area digital stations broadcasting into up-state New York, that U.S. TiVo users could access if/when TiVo/Tribune make the guide data available for them.

...Dale
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Old 02-18-2008, 11:04 AM   #8
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I am having the same problem. While i am not an expert, it sure seems like a simple problem, the frequency is incorrect, it really is frequency 20 not freq 5. The guide data is there and it is correct, just the wrong channel #. If only it were such a simple fix. I have contacted TiVO numerous times regarding this, with no luck.

Anyone out there got any suggestions on how to escalate this issue to someone/some dept to get this fixed?

Thanks for any and all help!
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Old 02-18-2008, 04:06 PM   #9
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What does it do if you clear out the scanned channel?
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Old 02-18-2008, 05:00 PM   #10
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Thanks for the reply! If I were to clear out the scanned channel, we would be left with just the "df5" verison, which has the correct guide info, but there is no picture, seemingly because it map's itself to frequency 5, instead of the correct freq 20.
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Old 03-06-2008, 09:38 AM   #11
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well, still having the same problem, I just got off the phone with tivo and they say I should fill out another lineup discrepancy form, in a previous email they (not sure if they means tivo or tribune) have said they can't edit the frequency of a channel in the lineup. So at this point I'm not sure if they are getting the wrong frequency data for CBLT-DT from the station itself or if the problem is with tribune. Does anyone out there have any contact phone numbers for tribune? Also does anyone actually get CBLT-DT (CBC out of toronto) with accurate guide data? Thanks!
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Old 03-06-2008, 01:26 PM   #12
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I prompted TiVo today and got an email back that says, in part:

Quote:
Dear Valued TiVo Customer,

... Our data provider was able to update several of the other Canadian stations, but they are currently unable to create two channels on the same channel number, even with different digital frequencies.
This frustrated the heck out of me because I'm not asking for them to create two channels on the same channel number. Ugh!!!! I just responded with this message....

Quote:
I don't understand, I am not asking, nor would I want to create TWO
channels on the same channel number. Only one channel on one frequency is
broadcasting in the real world - channel 5-1 (CBLTDT - CBC Toronto) on
frequency 20 (not on frequency 5 where Tivo/Tribune is currently providing
guide data for). So I am requesting that TiVo provide the CBLTDT guide data
for 5-1, frequency 20 alone!

I, and all TiVo users within 100 miles just want guide data for one
frequency on the channel that CBC is ACTUALLY broadcasting on - 5-1,
frequency 20.

Your provider, Tribune, is providing guide data for channel 5-1 for a
frequency that is not being broadcast on, frequency 5 and NOT providing data
for the actual frequency that station 5-1 IS broadcasting on - frequency 20.

What needs to happen is for the data that is currently being provided for
frequency 5 (but where nothing is being aired) to be dropped altogether
because there IS no station there and for that data to be attached to
frequency 20 on Channel 5-1 because that is where the station is being
broadcast.

Seems simple to me, and everyone else up here who is frustrated by the
current situation where the guide data TiVo provides for channel 5-1 on
frequency 5 is unusable. Please refer to my detailed descriptions and
actual pictures of this happening on my TiVo Series 3 in this thread:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=383234

Please look at this again.
hopefully they'll understand and try again.

...Dale
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Last edited by Dajad : 03-06-2008 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 03-06-2008, 01:45 PM   #13
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One thing to note. I followed farlz00's recommendation in this thread:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=383177

and changed my zipcode for the lineup in Youngstown New York (14174). I still get guide data for all the other U.S. stations and CFTO (9-1), but for the first time I also get guide data for City TV 57-1. So now I have guide data for two Canadian digital OTA stations. Yeah!

Still waiting for (proper) guide data for these Canadian stations:

5-1 (frequency 20) - CBC
36-1 - CTS
25-1 - CBLFTDT (CRT - CBC French)
44-1 - Omni 2 (CJMT)
64-1 - Omni 1 (CFMT)
66-1 - Sun TV

though the OMNI stations keep moving around and I'm not even sure where they are at the moment.
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Old 03-06-2008, 02:08 PM   #14
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OK, within minutes I got this short answer back:
Quote:
Our apologies for any misunderstanding or mistyping. At this time, our data provider is not able to acquire or update digital frequency data.
So, I guess that's that.

I don't understand how their data provider is not able to update the digital frequency data. How the heck do they do this for the thousands of other stations around the U.S.? Is the CBC the only station in all of NOrth America that broadcasts on a different frequency for what TiVo/Tribune has data for. None of this makes sense. You'd think the stations provide Tribune with the station and frequency they are broadcasting on along with the guide data and Tribune just pushes that along. I'd think they'd just need to type the number '20' into a database frequency field where a '5' currently resides. Argh!!!!

...Dale
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Old 03-06-2008, 02:43 PM   #15
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Wow, this is insane! Thier database is simply showing the wrong frequency. When they say "they" can't fix it, I guess they mean tribune. I guess the next step is to somehow verify if CBLT is providing tribune with the incorrect frequency data. Wish me luck!
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Old 03-06-2008, 09:25 PM   #16
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Tivo has this problem with a local phoenix station, the station recently flash cut from analog to digital. Because its a translator they map their channel to match the out of town full power station. So instead of being analog 27 they are digital 7.1 RF channel 27. Tivo CS said because the station is not using the channel number they should be (27.1 I guess) they can't provide guide data for it. The odd thing is they still have guide data for 27 and nothing for 27.1 where they seem to think it should be.
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Old 03-26-2008, 09:09 AM   #17
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Well, still having the same problem. It boils down to the guide data listing the acutal channel number/frequency incorrectly. TiVO customer service says they can't change it and they say that supposedly Tribune can't change it either. They are saying the incorrect info is coming from the station itself, CBLT, and suggested contacting them. I did that, and it was basically useless. The rep at CBC actually told me that I should "do like the rest of us and pay big bucks for cable". Also she said that OTA won't last for much longer. At that point, I realized how futile it was dealing w/her.

Does anyone have any ideas/contacts for verifying if the data tribune has regarding CBLT-DT (frequency 20) out of Toronto? And does anyone have any ideas on who can actually make the change in the databases so that the guide data corresponds with the correct channel?

Thanks for any and all suggestions!
Brian
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Old 03-26-2008, 09:25 PM   #18
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Tivo is annoyingly dependent on Tribune. I went ahead and emailed the station to see if they would try and resolve the problem. Not sure if they will care about a DVR viewer
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Old 03-26-2008, 10:03 PM   #19
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I think this is the right "Tribune":
http://tms.tribune.com/contacts.html

You could start there.

Or as a recruiter once told me, find the nearest bar to their office and hang around at happy hour. You're bound to find someone that works there!

Of course, that's a long drive from Toronto.
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Old 04-08-2008, 11:53 PM   #20
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duplicate channels, wrong guide data

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dajad View Post
Is the CBC the only station in all of NOrth America that broadcasts on a different frequency for what TiVo/Tribune has data for. None of this makes sense. You'd think the stations provide Tribune with the station and frequency they are broadcasting on along with the guide data and Tribune just pushes that along. I'd think they'd just need to type the number '20' into a database frequency field where a '5' currently resides. Argh!!!!

...Dale
Well, here in New Orleans the NBC station changed their signal. There are now two 6-1 stations found by scanning. One has guide data associated but nothing is on it. Full signal, just nothing broadcast. The other, new 6-1 has the programming, but TIVO knows nothing about it. This is the SNL channel, and the thursday nite channel.

This digital change over is getting pretty confusing. Why are they changing to duplicate channels? A normal person just wanting to watch TV with an antennae wouldn't have been able to figure this out.
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Old 04-25-2008, 11:07 AM   #21
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As an update ....

Canada’s last major network finally begins HD broadcasting in Canada. And TiVo provides the guide data for the two new global stations in Toronto if you use the Youngstown New York zipcode (14174) during Guide setup.

See my new blog post here:

http://www.daleisphere.com/2008/04/2...ing-in-canada/

The CBC problem still persists. But, for the CBC issue and the inability to use Canadian postal codes, the S3 and TiVo HD units are almost ready for prime-time in Canada.

...Dale
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Old 04-25-2008, 11:49 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TolloNodre View Post
I think this is the right "Tribune":
http://tms.tribune.com/contacts.html

You could start there.

Or as a recruiter once told me, find the nearest bar to their office and hang around at happy hour. You're bound to find someone that works there!

Of course, that's a long drive from Toronto.
Hey Tollo ... I emailed all the relevant people on that list over a year ago seeing if anyone of them could tell me more generically when Tribune would start publishing digital OTA data for CAnadian zip-codes, whether as provided to TiVo or over Zap2it.com's website. As with every other attempt to get an answer to this question from them and every contact I could find at TiVo and Zap2it.com, I've come up with a giant goose-egg.

Not a single contact I've asked or anyone of the couple dozen people I've emailed this question to has even responded to the email question let alone answer it.

The Frustration continues.

...Dale
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Old 04-26-2008, 10:23 AM   #23
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I had the same problem happen to me a while back. Not with OTA though, but just a regular digital tier channel that they changed. I had two copies. One worked and the other didn't and any recordings were recording off the broken channel, not the one that worked. After a few reboots and force connecting to tivo the problem fixed itself somehow.
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Old 04-26-2008, 11:09 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dajad View Post
Not a single contact I've asked or anyone of the couple dozen people I've emailed this question to has even responded to the email question let alone answer it.

The Frustration continues.

...Dale
Hmm...so much for the 'contact' page.

But at least as an American I can know that when CBC-Windsor goes HD, my zip code should work.

Of course it won't go HD in my lifetime!
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Old 08-12-2008, 07:23 AM   #25
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I assume from your other post that you are still having this problem. One point that I don't see here is whether you have tried to connect your antenna straight to your TV, do a channel scan and see if you also get two channel 5-1?

I had a similar problem here in Pittsburgh with one channel which was broadcasting on one frequency, but remapping the channel number to another. I also got duplicate channel numbers, both on my tv and on my tivo. I just lucked out in that Tivo had the guide info for the version that I was actually receiving, and no guide data for the blank channel (which I just deleted).

My guess was always that the station was somehow messing up the PSIP data in their broadcast. You could confirm this by trying the direct connect to the TV.
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Old 08-13-2008, 08:13 AM   #26
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glad this thread is still alive! PSIP seems fine, no problems at all when connected to tv directly, seems like it's just an error in thier tables/db which no one is taking responsibility for correcting.
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Old 09-22-2008, 06:38 PM   #27
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I have been there and done that for the last two years and on a whim changed my zip to lewiston,ny 14092 today and......................... I got it 5.1 CBLTDT 5.1 frequency 20 with guide info!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 11-18-2008, 06:14 AM   #28
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Woa, I can't believe i missed this! maevejr, good work, i did the same yesterday, and now cbltdt guide data is on the proper frequency, i even changed my zipcode back to youngstown ny 14174, because that's the only zip in the us that has guide data for CityHd, and everything is coming in great. Now if i could just get the guide data for the omni's and sun on the right frequency! thanks
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