Why are the S3 & HD not compatible with Satellite?

[murphyml]

Can someone please explain to me why the S3 and HD models don't work with satellite? This really makes no sense to me.

I'm an original TiVo S1 user (still use it) with lifetime service, and I'd like to upgrade to a new TiVo (and transfer my service). The current deal looks great - an HD with Lifetime service.

However, I can't use it, because I am a DirecTV subscriber.

Why am I being discriminated against? I was TiVo and DirecTV when they used to have a serial control port on the DirecTV box allowing fast channel switching (they don't offer this anymore - I have no idea why).

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone out there had an explanation as to why I can't get an HD TiVo for Satellite. I can get HD channels on DirecTV, so why can't TiVo HD work with this?

This is really a major issue for me, because I will NEVER subscribe to Time Warner Cable again - way too expensive, way too slow, way too buggy. However, I feel like TiVo is forcing my hand on this, because I'm loyal to my TiVo over everything else. I mean, this issue is coloring what TV I will buy, whether I will ever get HD, etc.

And yeah, I don't want a DirecTivo either. I like my lifetime service; I don't want to pay monthly for something I already own. Has TiVo abandoned Satellite so the sat providers can sell their own DVR's?

I'm hoping the reason that Sat & HD aren't compatible is a technical one, and not a marketing/licensing one. Because that would mean that eventually it will be solved, instead of it being a money issue.

Not happy with this current situation. Please help me understand.

Mike

[Chris8204]

I believe the reason is pretty much as simple as that satellite company's don't support cable cards but cable companies and verizon FIOS do. As far as why TiVo doesn't have a work around (such as working with a set top box from a satellite company) I'm not sure.

[tech89]

I completely agree with this argument! I have a nice big TV that is begging for HD programming, an old DirecTV receiver (with IR channel changing capabilities, if you can even call it that), and a Series 1 TiVo with a lifetime subscription.

I'd love to be able to upgrade to an HD DirecTV receiver and still be able to use my TiVo box.

What are my options????

[Chester_Lampwick]

Okay look, this has been addressed many times before. Do a little search. Here's a summary:

1 - HDTV has been implemented with HDCP(Hi-Def Copy Protection) nothing coming out of your HD satellite reciever's HDMI port can be recorded or captured, it has to go to a TV set that's HDCP compliant. This would be the simplest way to have a standalone HD box, but alas Hollywood won't let you.

2 - You could capture analogue HD from the component output of your satellite reciever. Too bad this would take much more processing power than could be built into a $200 box.

3 - DirecTV doesn't want to pay TiVo licencing to make DirecTiVos anymore. Not relevant as you want a standalone unit.

[mikeyts]

TiVo HD and TiVo S3 record HDTV from their internal tuners. They can tune cable, they can tune over-the-air--they cannot tune satellite, which is delivered through 2 separate and proprietary systems. No one can make devices to tune D* or E* without making deals with one of those companies and I don't believe that either company has ever licensed a device that could tune their services which could also tune cable--I think that LG made one once and either the D* or cable tuning was disabled in the shipping device.

Give it up and switch to a DirecTV DVR (or better yet, switch from DirecTV to Dish; CNET has pronounced the Dish HD DVR to be better than TiVo). I predict that you will not see a TiVo that will tune DirecTV ever again.

[ADent]

There is no practical way to record HDTV from satellite boxes, if FireWire is not available.

A raw HDTV signal is GB per sec, encoder chips are very expensive, HDCP would prevent you doing it anyways.

Now if Satellite boxes had Firewire outputs, then TiVo should be able to support that.

Why don't satellite have CableCards and Firewire outputs (both requirements for cable)? Because the FCC granted a waiver. Write the FCC and your Federal representatives to get the waiver lifted.

[mr.unnatural]

Originally Posted by murphyml

Can someone please explain to me why the S3 and HD models don't work with satellite? This really makes no sense to me.

I'm an original TiVo S1 user (still use it) with lifetime service, and I'd like to upgrade to a new TiVo (and transfer my service). The current deal looks great - an HD with Lifetime service.

However, I can't use it, because I am a DirecTV subscriber.

Why am I being discriminated against? I was TiVo and DirecTV when they used to have a serial control port on the DirecTV box allowing fast channel switching (they don't offer this anymore - I have no idea why).

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone out there had an explanation as to why I can't get an HD TiVo for Satellite. I can get HD channels on DirecTV, so why can't TiVo HD work with this?

This is really a major issue for me, because I will NEVER subscribe to Time Warner Cable again - way too expensive, way too slow, way too buggy. However, I feel like TiVo is forcing my hand on this, because I'm loyal to my TiVo over everything else. I mean, this issue is coloring what TV I will buy, whether I will ever get HD, etc.

And yeah, I don't want a DirecTivo either. I like my lifetime service; I don't want to pay monthly for something I already own. Has TiVo abandoned Satellite so the sat providers can sell their own DVR's?

I'm hoping the reason that Sat & HD aren't compatible is a technical one, and not a marketing/licensing one. Because that would mean that eventually it will be solved, instead of it being a money issue.

Not happy with this current situation. Please help me understand.

Mike

There's no discrimination involved here. You're trying to get a Tivo that's designed to work on one system with a system that uses a completely different proprietary format. It is a technical issue. It's like saying you want to use your cable box to receive DirecTV (ain't gonna happen). If you want a DVR to use with DirecTV that can record HDTV programming then your only current option is the HR20-700 or the newer HR21. Go gripe to DirecTV about the fact that they dropped Tivo in favor of their own DVR, not that they'll listen. Tivo didn't abandon satellite but rather DirecTV got greedy and decided they didn't want to pay Tivo any royalties for using their software.

The monthly DVR fee pays for the Tivo features and guide data (you don't own them, just the hardware). The serial control is not used by too many people these days since it makes more sense to use a standalone DirecTV DVR that has the recorder and tuner integrated into a single box. It's also much cheaper than the separates setup, not to mention that you'll get a better picture with a DirecTivo than with this arrangement. Lifetime service might sound like a nice idea but it's actually more expensive when you consider the DirecTivo has dual tuners and you can add as many as you want to your account for a flat fee plus any mirroring fees for the extra receivers. It would take you many years to recoup the lifetime fee on a DirecTivo.

[controlio]

There's a lot of confusing information in this thread. Let me clarify.

Why is there not a newer D*Tivo? Because D* wanted to market their own, as they thought they could do it better and without royalty. That argument is dwindling, as they pay patent royalties to TiVo anyways, and their box is clearly inferior.

Why is there not a TiVo that can record regular analog HD out of your D* or E* box? Because TiVo has learned its lesson about unit pricing. Encoders to take YRB or RGB in and out of a device aren't cheap. It can be done, but it wouldn't be practical - considering the only people who would want this incredibly expensive device would be D* and E* customers, since cable is required by law to have a standardized hardware interface (Cablecard). Plus, you get back to the inefficiency and quality issues that plagued the older TiVos. The beauty of the D*TiVo was it recorded the MPEG stream directly, so the quality was always perfect. If you take a heavily compressed stream and recompress it... it won't look like the HD quality everyone would expect.

Why can't you record digitally out of a D* or E* receiver? Well... you probably could. The problem is, TiVo has to put out a device that will work with any configuration. Recording over firewire is possible, but some content is encrypted and would have to be decrypted by the TiVo. Recording over HDMI is possible, but some boxes have HDCP and would have to be decrypted by the TiVo. What if you have an old box that has neither HDMI or Firewire (I still do)? You're screwed, and you're p|ssed when you bring your new purchase home to find out it won't work. The percentage of the market that could use such a box is small, the percentage that would buy them is tiny. It just makes more sense to contact the companies and ask them to bring back D*TiVo to do it the right way. You're probably SOL with Echostar, unless TiVo is REALLY kind with their upcoming settlement.

All of the other reasons are bunk. It's not about bandwidth... your typical HD feed is between 15-35mbps. It's not about encryption... TiVo could license decrypting technology. It boils down to cost, final output quality, and percentage of HD subscribers who would use such a thing. The numbers just aren't there.

(Numbers for dorks: Yes, the originating HD feed is 1.5gbps... but the second it gets sent from a HD switcher over transmission lines it's compressed down to 270mbps. That's 5:1 compression before it even goes in the air. By the time it leaves your cable or sat provider, it is compressed down to under 45mbps. If you think you like your HD picture, it's like looking through stained glass compared to what the original feed looks like. Also, your typical HD feed is recompressed between 4 and 5 times before it makes it to you. That can make for a lot of artifacting. These two things are the main reasons you don't want to take an analog HD feed and re-encode it... the signal has been beat to hell enough already - why add another compression layer?)

[ZeoTiVo]

Originally Posted by controlio

Why can't you record digitally out of a D* or E* receiver? Well... you probably could.

no, you can not record the digital signal on a standalone DVR - as you noted any Digital output on the D* is digitally protected.
you can not record the digital signal that D* broadcastsa as you need their card to validate service and then you need to unencrypt it as well.

TiVo may in the future be able to record from a component input but, as you noted, they need to find the hardware to do so at a cost that can keep the box marketable*.

so in short without the direct agreement of D* or E* there can be no sat box for TiVo. TiVo has demonstrated that it is veryy eager to enter into a reasonable agreement with any broadcast operator so it does not seem to be TiVo that is not coming to the table.






*Of note- hackers have found the firmware in the TiVo HD to be called FUSION - and there are blanks and spaces on the TiVo HD motherboard to allow for some type of analog input for recording. Some speculate it might do composite and thus replace the Series 2 line but it seems kind of silly to go backwards veruss forward.

[mikeyts]

I think that the guy talking about Gbps HD feeds is talking about the prospect of recording HDMI, which is a multi-Gbps uncompressed video raster stream. To record it, you'd have to capture the data at that rate and encode it into some compressed form (presumably MPEG-2 or MPEG-4) in realtime; doable (for video not protected by HDCP), but not inexpensive and kinda silly, since any piece of home equipment which gives you HDMI to record almost certainly created it from the compressed encoding. It's like making a pitcher of Kool-Aid and then trying to turn it back into a powder.

I believe that most HD satellite transponder feeds from networks to their affiliated broadcasters run 45 Mbps, with multi-channel sound encoded as Dolby E. The broadcasters have to re-encode this on the fly into a rate that will fit in their 6 MHz ATSC channel (with sound re-encoded as Dolby D or Pro Logic), which cannot exceed 19.4 Mbps; they rarely choose a rate greater than 18 Mbps and usually choose something lower. Some few, like Fox, provide their affiliates with a stream that can be directly broadcast, with network ID bugs, news and weather crawls, local ads and programming "spliced" in dynamically at the broadcaster with relatively inexpensive equipment (relative to the stuff it takes to re-encode the 45 Mbps feeds).

The bottom line here is that TiVo has probably separated themselves from satellite forever. They're pretty deeply in bed with cable industry at this point, having sold versions of their GUI which run on leased cable boxes and are currently talking about making a future version of their product which runs OCAP apps. Satellite is not affiliating themselves with them again; that ship has sailed. Since the OP is violently opposed to using cable, his path into recording HDTV does not lie with TiVo and he needs to accept that. "You can't always get what you want".

[classicsat]

Originally Posted by murphyml

Can someone please explain to me why the S3 and HD models don't work with satellite? This really makes no sense to me.

Has TiVo abandoned Satellite so the sat providers can sell their own DVR's?

I'm hoping the reason that Sat & HD aren't compatible is a technical one, and not a marketing/licensing one. Because that would mean that eventually it will be solved, instead of it being a money issue.

Not happy with this current situation. Please help me understand.

Mike

It is a bit of both.

Technicalwise, the only way to build an affordable consumer grade digital video recorder is to either encode an SD video signal (which would make the DVR no better than a Series 2 TiVo), or directly record the compressed video stream from the provider. The HD models do both, analog from analog tuners, digital from digital tuners that directly tune cable or OTA, and record to the HDD.
A DVR that would record the HD from an STB would be prohibitively expensive for a consumer product, at least the way TiVo wants to market it.

Licensingwise, to record directly from satellite, TiVo needs access to the condtional access systems of satellite providers. Currently, there is no open standard that the satellite providers are willing to use, nor are the providers licensing their CA systems to 3rd party box manufacturers anymore.

Therefore, for now (until they release the mythical "Fusion" box, which will record only in SD anyway),your only solution for Standalone TiVo and Satellite is a Series 1 or Series 2, or for HD TiVo, to switch to cable or use digital OTA only.

[bicker]

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

There's no discrimination involved here.

Technically, there is, but the poster is not being discriminated against: Rather, DirecTV and Dish Network are discriminating against TiVo and the FCC is discriminating against cable companies. However, it is DirecTV's and Dish Network's prerogative to discriminate in determining who they'll allow create host devices for their networks, and it is the FCC's prerogative to discriminate in determining which companies they'll impose more draconian requirements on, as long as Congress doesn't intervene.

[ZeoTiVo]

Originally Posted by mikeyts

The bottom line here is that TiVo has probably separated themselves from satellite forever. They're pretty deeply in bed with cable industry at this point,

While TiVo is indeed working closely with cable I think "TiVo has probably separated themselves from satellite forever" is a statemnet that has nothing to back it up.

First it should be clearly noted that Sat. backed away from TiVo, not the other way around.
DirectTV was bought out by Murdoch and he thought he could do his own DVRs for less money. Then he went and sold the whole company off again.
E* sat at a table with TiVo and then backed out last minute and suddenly had their "own" DVR design that has since been ruled as willfully infringing on TiVo patents.

The FCC gave the sat companies a waiver on open standard access for 3rd parties due to tough competion environment and the Sat companies have just gone off and done as they pleased since.

If the FCC had done their job properly then we would be talking about the series 3 that could work on any provider and a consumer could decide based on content offerings alone versus having to weigh in DVR choices(instead of DVR optins) like our Original poster will have to do. He is the very example of a consumer who was disserved by the FCC caving and granting a waiver back when to sat.

[mikeyts]

I say that TiVo has separated themselves from satellite because satellite will not do business with someone who is actively helping cable florish. If a TiVo UI becomes the part of the identity of the cable providers, it will not be part of the face DirecTV, which is, as you say, by DirecTV's choice and given DirecTV's competitive position, I do not blame them.

I don't think that satellite was given any waiver--they were never invited to sit down and participate in the formation of the Plug-and-Play DTV-Over-Cable standards comittees and they protested loudly about it when the FCC announced their acceptance of the standard. Of course, it took years for the NCTA and CEA to come to any kind of agreement and the NCTA was none too pleased with what they came up, even though it came straight out of CableLABs, their own standards R&D organization. Had the SBCA (satellite folks) been also involved, I cannot believe that any standard would have been choosen even today, four years after adoption of CableCARD, etc.

If satellite was given some sort of explicit waiver from regulation on that front, they deserve it, given their competitive position. Cable has a lock on huge segments of the market. I've live in 13 cities in 11 states in my adult life, and in multiple dwellings in some of those places, and I don't think that lived anywhere that I could have had satellite service more than twice. Huge portions of the American public live in dwellings where they don't have private use areas with the required unblocked exposure to hang a satellite dish and all of them are passed by cable.

[bicker]

Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo

If the FCC had done their job properly then we would be talking about the series 3 that could work on any provider and a consumer could decide based on content offerings alone versus having to weigh in DVR choices(instead of DVR optins) like our Original poster will have to do. He is the very example of a consumer who was disserved by the FCC caving and granting a waiver back when to sat.

Abso-friggen-lutely. This just highlights the most notable and significant bit of persecution the FCC has visited on cable. If the FCC was about fairness, then separable security would have applied to ALL subscription television service providers, not just cable. Keep THIS in mind whenever you get frustrated with how cable addresses the FCC's regulations: In a fair world, either they wouldn't be subject to such regulations, or their competitors would.

[bicker]

Originally Posted by mikeyts

I say that TiVo has separated themselves from satellite because satellite will not do business with someone who is actively helping cable florish.

That's a little like saying I separated myself from FIOS because I'm a Comcast subscriber, when it was FIOS that refused to provide service in my part of town. There is absolutely no reason to believe that TiVo didn't make themselves available to the satellite services in the exact same way they made themselves available to cable services. The satellite services said no. The satellite services are at fault, if anyone is.

[mikeyts]

Originally Posted by bicker

That's a little like saying I separated myself from FIOS because I'm a Comcast subscriber, when it was FIOS that refused to provide service in my part of town. There is absolutely no reason to believe that TiVo didn't make themselves available to the satellite services in the exact same way they made themselves available to cable services. The satellite services said no. The satellite services are at fault, if anyone is.

Did I not say that I thought that it was by DirecTV's choice? You might not mean to keep someone away from you when you start using a cologne that they're allergic to, but that might be a collateral effect. TiVo is becoming strongly associated with conditional access cable service and neither DirecTV or DISH Network wants anything to do with that.

But then again, who knows? DirecTV's new ownership might want to get back together with TiVo and get out of the business of maintaining DVR firmware. They have negotiated a software upgrade for old S2-based DirecTiVos to roll out next year, so the lines of communication are open. New boxes are a whole new matter, though.

[cowboys2002]

Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo

While TiVo is indeed working closely with cable I think "TiVo has probably separated themselves from satellite forever" is a statemnet that has nothing to back it up.

First it should be clearly noted that Sat. backed away from TiVo, not the other way around.
DirectTV was bought out by Murdoch and he thought he could do his own DVRs for less money. Then he went and sold the whole company off again.
E* sat at a table with TiVo and then backed out last minute and suddenly had their "own" DVR design that has since been ruled as willfully infringing on TiVo patents.

The FCC gave the sat companies a waiver on open standard access for 3rd parties due to tough competion environment and the Sat companies have just gone off and done as they pleased since.

If the FCC had done their job properly then we would be talking about the series 3 that could work on any provider and a consumer could decide based on content offerings alone versus having to weigh in DVR choices(instead of DVR optins) like our Original poster will have to do. He is the very example of a consumer who was disserved by the FCC caving and granting a waiver back when to sat.

Let's take this passage:

If the FCC had done their job properly then we would be talking about the series 3 that could work on any provider and a consumer could decide based on content offerings alone versus having to weigh in DVR choices(instead of DVR optins) like our Original poster will have to do. He is the very example of a consumer who was disserved by the FCC caving and granting a waiver back when to sat.

Do you think that the cable monopolies that exist today would have come up with triple-play and other bundles at reasonable prices had it not been for both the mini-dish providers? In this aspect, the FCC did it's job to open the door to competition where it didn't exist. Back in the 80's-1994 your only choice if you wanted cable was the local cable company's. The start of DirectV and Dish opened the door to the local phone companies with their OTA "microwave" systems (Pacific Bell Televison for you folks in Los Angeles) and the FIOS and U-Verse.

That fact that DirecTv used to allow us to purchase our own receivers (especially the combo boxes) in a way, opened the door to consumers owning their own boxes that will decode cable signals via a cable card with encryption and authorization tools built-in. The Series 3 and Tivo HD "could possible" be used with satellite providers IF they developed a "cable card type solution" similar to the one mandated by the FCC.

The truth in the matter, is that all the providers (FIOS, U-Verse,DTV and DISH) have all been battling over DVR technology and patents. DTV (under the previous ownership), started "nudging" subscribers to their own branded product in the last 18-24 months. All new HD content is MPEG 4, which NO TIVO can decode. The DTV combo boxes record direct from the satellite broadcast "stream". It Doesn't have a tuner to record cable signals. The Series 3 and Tivo HD are built for OTA and Cable.

The FCC isn't perfect, neither are the cable or satellite providers.

[ZeoTiVo]

Originally Posted by cowboys2002

Let's take this passage:

Do you think that the cable monopolies that exist today would have come up with triple-play and other bundles at reasonable prices had it not been for both the mini-dish providers? In this aspect, the FCC did it's job to open the door to competition where it didn't exist..

umm my point was that if the FCC had gone with the original mandate of open access being across all content providers then MORE people could feel comfortable making a switch to sat to see if they liked it.
The scenario is that an open standard could have led to a 3rd party piece of hardware for DVR functionality that would work whether I used cable or sat or FIOS. So if cable was screwing up or I really wanted to try out all those HD channels on DirectTV or I had enough of the lossy compression of DirectTV - whatever reason - I could call and make the switch but keep the main piece of hardware that the whole family uses and is accustomed too. Seems to me like that would have led to a lot more competiton and brought on even better deals for the consumer than just triple play

[CrispyCritter]

Originally Posted by mikeyts

Did I not say that I thought that it was by DirecTV's choice? You might not mean to keep someone away from you when you start using a cologne that they're allergic to, but that might be a collateral effect. TiVo is becoming strongly associated with conditional access cable service and neither DirecTV or DISH Network wants anything to do with that.

But then again, who knows? DirecTV's new ownership might want to get back together with TiVo and get out of the business of maintaining DVR firmware. They have negotiated a software upgrade for old S2-based DirecTiVos to roll out next year, so the lines of communication are open. New boxes are a whole new matter, though.

But DirecTV dumped TiVo (as far as new boxes go) long before TiVo signed any of the Comcast or Cox agreements, as I recall. It was well over a year before TiVo had any prospects of replacing the DirecTV type of subs with any subs on cable company equipment.

I agree your comments may give a reason for DirecTV to not go with TiVo in the future, but they weren't a cause of the breakup.

My opinion is that DirecTV is now not adverse to new TiVo boxes, but has to wait out the NDS contracts first (I don't know how long those last.)

[cowboys2002]

Isn't Tivo a 3rd party source?

Tivo has models for DirecTv and OTA/Cable.

Dish Network is the only "pay channel" provider who appears to be left out.

The cost of making a box that is "one size fits all" will force everybody to pay for the "option".

Cable and Sateliite use different encryption schemes and other technology.

There is a reason Tivo Developed the DTV combo box only for use with DirecTV. This box has served many well for years and may very well continue to do so. When I purchased the 1st,2nd and 3rd units, I did so with the knowledge that they would only work with standard definition channels.

The real problem, IMHO is that in order to migrate to HD, the end-user must make a choice. Stick with DTV and use their HDDVR (non-tivo), go to Dish (again non0Tivo), or Cable where your choice is cable co DVR or Tivo S2, S3 or Tivo HD.

Looks like we do have choices.

[bicker]

Originally Posted by mikeyts

But then again, who knows? DirecTV's new ownership might want to get back together with TiVo and get out of the business of maintaining DVR firmware.

Considering that they just purchased ReplayTV, I tend to doubt that.

[mikeyts]

Originally Posted by bicker

Considering that they just purchased ReplayTV, I tend to doubt that.

I hadn't heard that. I'd say that that probably slams the door on any possibility of D* and TiVo getting back together (though I already thought that any such possibility was slim). I have to say that it was nice of D* to negotiate a firmware upgrade for their S2-based DirecTiVo using customers, since it apparently was not a prelude to renewed DirecTiVo development as many suspected.

Originally Posted by CrispyCritter

But DirecTV dumped TiVo (as far as new boxes go) long before TiVo signed any of the Comcast or Cox agreements, as I recall. It was well over a year before TiVo had any prospects of replacing the DirecTV type of subs with any subs on cable company equipment.

I agree your comments may give a reason for DirecTV to not go with TiVo in the future, but they weren't a cause of the breakup.

I never claimed that TiVo's association with cable was the reason for the break-up, just a reason for them not to get back together.

I think that TiVo will gradually approach all the successful DVR OEMs and ask for their due on the crossing their patents, particularly given their success with E*. They don't really need to produce satellite boxes to make money on satellite boxes .

[ADent]

Here is a nice thread on some of the FCC reasoning on why satellite was exempted with links to the original FCC docs: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=260501 .

The 1Gbs per second comes from the fact that TiVo would need to record some output of a satellite box. Currently most boxes don't have a compressed (ie FireWire) output, so TiVo would need to record this 1Gbps stream (obviously compressed with a MPEG chip, which aren't available affordably for HDTV).

There is a HDCP type thing for FireWire - 5C.

[mikeyts]

A PDF file for the first document quoted in that thread is here (it's a lot easier to deal with than the photocopy you can find with that FCC search page and you can cut and paste from it).

Interesting. One of the things that CableCARD was meant to acheive is allowing people to buy equipment capable of tuning conditional access cable that they could move across country. At the time, people mostly owned their satellite equipment and it could be moved from place to place and still be used to access the satellite system. Things have changed.

I still say that had they complicated things by tossing the satellite people into the plug-and-play DTV-over-cable standards discussion, they'd still be searching for a set of standards.

[classicsat]

Originally Posted by cowboys2002

Isn't Tivo a 3rd party source?

Tivo has models for DirecTv and OTA/Cable.

Dish Network is the only "pay channel" provider who appears to be left out.

Not quite.
TiVo only has OTA and cable for for their digital/HD model,
but their Series 1/2 line will work with any provider, in SD, from the provider's box.

The DirecTV-TiVos, while they began as TiVos for DirecTV service, they ended up being essentially DirecTV /DVRs with TiVo software. They, at least don't count for what DVRs TiVo offers for their customers.

The cost of making a box that is "one size fits all" will force everybody to pay for the "option".

Cable and Sateliite use different encryption schemes and other technology.

Fundamentally, the encryption is the same, enough a Cablecard could be made to provide access.
The issue really is the satellite receiving electronics.
You might ad $100 to the sale price of what the Series 3/TiVo HD is sold for now, to add satellite, provided satellite providers were to have Cablecards available.

There is a reason Tivo Developed the DTV combo box only for use with DirecTV.

Mostly because DirecTV is the one they worked with.

They either neither though of, or could not contractually, or maybe technically, build a dual satellite provider box.

The real problem, IMHO is that in order to migrate to HD, the end-user must make a choice. Stick with DTV and use their HDDVR (non-tivo), go to Dish (again non0Tivo), or Cable where your choice is cable co DVR or Tivo S2, S3 or Tivo HD.

Looks like we do have choices.

[ZeoTiVo]

Originally Posted by mikeyts

I still say that had they complicated things by tossing the satellite people into the plug-and-play DTV-over-cable standards discussion, they'd still be searching for a set of standards.

yes, that is a possible outcome as well. cable and sat are different enough that even the one box idea would most likely have needed two types of slots for two types of cards at the end of the day when reality set in.

Still even open access for sat that is technically differnet than cable but the same for Dish or DTv would have been a good thing for more options in DVRs

[qz3fwd]

R5000 to record sat HD?

[kb7oeb]

Unlike Europe we do not have a satellite standard here, even if E* and D* were on board the two companies use significantly different platforms. The switching is different, stacking is different, different encryption standards would require a CAM module neither company offers, one is DVB, other is DSS etc.

One positive that could come out of the lawsuit against E* is perhaps they would port the tivo gui over to dish hardware. Dish is using linux on most of the DVRs just like Tivo is.

Originally Posted by Chester_Lampwick

2 - You could capture analogue HD from the component output of your satellite reciever. Too bad this would take much more processing power than could be built into a $200 box.

Rumor on the satellite forums is the content providers are going to start requiring the analog outputs be downrezzed to 480p

[wierdo]

Originally Posted by classicsat

Licensingwise, to record directly from satellite, TiVo needs access to the condtional access systems of satellite providers. Currently, there is no open standard that the satellite providers are willing to use, nor are the providers licensing their CA systems to 3rd party box manufacturers anymore.

Actually, TiVo could in theory build a DVB-S box that would work just fine with Dish Network, since they use DVB. The problem is that they won't send you a Nagravision card (the CAM system they use) unless you're planning to put it in one of their receivers. It's just silly, since they could choose to be as open as the European providers as far as that goes.

The way the CAM interacts with the box is standardized, as is the ISO smartcard slot they use.

DirecTV, on the other hand, persists in using their proprietary DSS system, so as not to break backwards compatibility with old boxes. The sad thing is that DSS is little more than a draft version of DVB, since the standard wasn't finalized in time for them to hit their target live date.

Given that it's possible to use software and a DVB receiver to steal service from any of the DVB providers, I have no doubt there would be little in the way of engineering obstacles to building a DVB-using TiVo. The problem is entirely on the business end of things. TiVo doesn't want to build boxes for small markets, and Dish wants people to be locked in to their service by technical as well as contractual means, thus their policy on not allowing standard DVB receivers to use their service. It's very similar to Sprint's policy on activating CDMA phones that don't have their firmware.

If the FCC had forced the satellite providers to provide functional firewire interfaces, TiVo might have been inclined to build a single tuner firewire box. They seem to be moving more toward a policy of working in cooperation with the video providers rather than just building boxes with no consideration of the provider.