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Old 12-15-2007, 04:12 PM   #91
ZeoTiVo
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Originally Posted by JaneiR36 View Post
TiVo frequently does software / service updates, do they not? I have not seen this for a full year. I have not even been a customer for a full year. Around early Nov, I paid for the three-year plan, and have only seen the extra ads for about three weeks now. So yes, I feel like I have paid $400 only to see more ads.
so you are a brand new customer. The fact is ads on the TiVo have been around for quite longer than that Now I do note that you do not see a TiVo central screen on the TiVo website so you do not see that yellow star ad and I doubt the CSRs are coached to make sure you understand there are ads on two screens out of the many menu screens so if ads are that big an issue to you then I guess the work falls to you to research the product before you buy. Sorry but buyer beware is the watchword in our capitalistic society.

My comment on the time posting was simply noting the irony of how little the ads truly affect your use of the TiVo DVR versus the time required to complain about them.
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Old 12-15-2007, 08:37 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by ah30k
Pretty lame complaint. How many times a day do you go to the settings page?
Quote:
Originally Posted by minckster
I was pointing out that the statement, "Plus the ads on TiVo do not change the way you interact with the DVR ..." is false. It is false. Is it not?

No where did I make a complaint. Your insult is unwarranted.
And I say that your example of 'changing the way you interact' is bogus because it happens so infrequently. If you want to cling to your argument then go ahead.
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Old 12-15-2007, 08:56 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by RBlount View Post
Any company that I maintain an ongoing service relationship with. If Sony goes out of business tomorrow, my TV will still work, but if Tivo goes out of business, well I can always use it as a doorstop.
I was actually looking forward to this part of your post! So you can't come up with any other company you'd so willingly support in this same manner, almost as if it were a charity? Personally, I think if TiVo went out of business, a more successful business model would take their place, so that's no excuse for paying customers to suddenly become a free target advertising audience when we paid for no commercials.

PS: I haven't mentioned it, but I feel the ads are the biggest items on each of their respective screens. It's just a little annoying to see.

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You should be able just sit back and enjoy your Tivo, I still do.
I don't really have a choice at this point, since a) it's not a big enough deal to cancel my service, b) the ads curiously started appearing after my 30-day trial was up.

Quote:
Tivo still does everything it did when I bought it and I am still paying the same price per month. In fact, since I bought the Tivo, many new features (MRV, TTG, Music & Pictures, etc.) have been added WITHOUT a hike in my service fees! I feel I am getting even more value from my Tivo.
As another topic mentions, sometimes subscribers just need a DVR. I do not use any of the other features and honestly do not know what the first two acronyms mean!

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Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo
My comment on the time posting was simply noting the irony of how little the ads truly affect your use of the TiVo DVR versus the time required to complain about them.
Moot point, since the point of the OP is the [links to the] ads are present, and that they are annoying. The first part is a known, indisputable fact, and the second is subjective. Would you rather just not hear about it just so you feel better?
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Old 12-15-2007, 08:59 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by ah30k View Post
And I say that your example of 'changing the way you interact' is bogus because it happens so infrequently. If you want to cling to your argument then go ahead.
I use the left arrow rather than the TiVo button which I used all the time (and is in the most convenient location on the remote control) to avoid seeing the ads. There has also been mention of some users (maybe) having to turn off the sound to avoid the chime. I know I'm using the left arrow several times a day now, but at least I have a choice. I might have discovered using it if I had read the forum earlier, but I actually found out quite by accident that you don't see the ad if you hit the left button at the end of a program and not the TiVo. Besides, the left button takes me back to the group I was watching, anyway.
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Old 12-15-2007, 09:58 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by JaneiR36 View Post
I use the left arrow rather than the TiVo button which I used all the time (and is in the most convenient location on the remote control) to avoid seeing the ads. There has also been mention of some users (maybe) having to turn off the sound to avoid the chime. I know I'm using the left arrow several times a day now, but at least I have a choice. I might have discovered using it if I had read the forum earlier, but I actually found out quite by accident that you don't see the ad if you hit the left button at the end of a program and not the TiVo. Besides, the left button takes me back to the group I was watching, anyway.
I responded to the quote about the lack of two-button access to the settings screen being a 'changing the way you interact' with TiVo issue because access to the setting screen is so infrequent that it hardly qualifies as impacting your TiVo experience if it takes three clicks. You point about the sounds is a much more valid point and if I had sounds on I would be annoyed too. As for seeing the ad at the bottom of the list being so horrific, I just don't get it. I guess it bothers some so much they need to carry the torch about how terrible it is. Not me. You can't argue personal preferences. You are entitled to your views.
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Old 12-15-2007, 10:03 PM   #96
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I was actually looking forward to this part of your post! So you can't come up with any other company you'd so willingly support in this same manner, almost as if it were a charity?
Off the top my hear, Apple Computer would certainly fit this definition (just change Charity to Cult. ) Apple has a very loyal following that, not only buys their product, but wants they company to succeed and survive.

But any company that I need to maintain an ongoing service relationship with (Verizon Wireless, XM Radio, even Comcast) I want to succeed. If I didn't feel that I was getting the best service (for me) and best value I would go somewhere else.

This isn't charity, if Tivo were to cease business, I would be forced to use (IMHO) a substandard DVR service.

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Personally, I think if TiVo went out of business, a more successful business model would take their place, so that's no excuse for paying customers to suddenly become a free target advertising audience when we paid for no commercials.
Many have tied, few have succeeded. I don't know if you ever heard of ReplayTV, but they had nealy the same business model as Tivo (sell the hardware, monthly fee for the service). They could not make enough money to continue this business. They tried becoming a software company and now were just sold to DirecTV (reported ONLY for the patents it held.)

We are left with Tivo and and the cable/Sat companies to provide us with DVRs (I know that computer solutions exist, but most people want a plug and play box.) This is NOT a level playing field. Cable/Sat companies can subsidize their DVR costs with their regular cable fees (it costs the Cable companies several hundred dollars for each of those "free" DVR.) Tivo doesn't have any way of subsidizing their income. They have to make money by selling Tivos, keeping subscribers, and (unfortunately) selling Ads.

Personally, if another DVR company came along and offered a better solution, I would consider getting rid of my Tivo. But, as of right now, Tivo is the cream of the crop. If they go out of business, I am stuck with my piece of crap Comcast DVR.

Quote:
PS: I haven't mentioned it, but I feel the ads are the biggest items on each of their respective screens. It's just a little annoying to see.

I don't really have a choice at this point, since a) it's not a big enough deal to cancel my service, b) the ads curiously started appearing after my 30-day trial was up.
Ads have been in place longer than I have been a Tivo user (over 6 years). Yes the type and frequency has changed, but they have been. But they are also transitory, and don't always appear. You may have just caught a period of time that no ads were being shown.



Quote:
As another topic mentions, sometimes subscribers just need a DVR. I do not use any of the other features and honestly do not know what the first two acronyms mean!
MRV - Multiroom Viewing. The ability to watch to transfer a program from one Tivo to another.

TTG - TivoToGo. The ability to move a recorded program to your computer and portable devices (like the iPod) and watch them.

But, if as you say, you only need a DVR, then Tivo may not be for you. My Comcast DVR records programs just fine (most of the time.)


Quote:
Moot point, since the point of the OP is the [links to the] ads are present, and that they are annoying. The first part is a known, indisputable fact, and the second is subjective. Would you rather just not hear about it just so you feel better?
No, but people need to understand why the Ads are a necessity. Does complaining about it make you feel better?
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Old 12-15-2007, 11:09 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by JaneiR36 View Post
Moot point, since the point of the OP is the [links to the] ads are present, and that they are annoying. The first part is a known, indisputable fact, and the second is subjective. Would you rather just not hear about it just so you feel better?
no, go ahead and complain all you want. I actually am fascinated by the mind set that gets so tied up in a knot over an ad image on TiVo central they look to avoid it. You seem fine with the clutter of shows in now playing since you do not seem to delete any when you are done playing them - but that ad image.........

Also - replaytv, as mentioned, tried to compete in the same standalone DVR business. They had a great product and were looking like it would be a real horse race. Then replay TV made the fatal mistake of going right at advertisers by even including an autoskip feature for ads in shows and of course an ad free box. They were sued into oblivion by advertisers over the autoskip. replayTV was just sold last week to directTV though current customers are still serviced by the holding company. TiVo does not do the ads they do just for some petty cash. They work in a business environment where the advertisers are the real money men. TiVo instead takes a path of working with the advertisers. So would you rather have a replay with no ads and great DVR functionality but on its last leg as a supported product? in short, no one else is rushing into this standalone DVR business.

BTW - companies I use while dealing with advertising they directly show me;
Newspaper, XM radio, National Geographic, Scientific American, AOL, TiVo Community Forum, Bank Statements, Gevalia, Credit Card statements, Amazon, Nintendo, Bi-Lo, Food Lion, Best Buy, Disney, PIXAR, Movie Theater but I think you get the idea by now.
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Old 12-15-2007, 11:32 PM   #98
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I haven't read all the posts here but another thing just came to mind regarding Tivo's use of ads on menus and such. WTF is the big deal exactly? Every ad on Tivo requires that you click on it. You are not required to watch an ad before, during, or after you watch any show that you've recorded. Neither are you required to watch an ad when you first enter or exit the main Tivo menu or anytime while you are navigating. You are not charged for these ads, in fact they keep you from paying more for your subscription. Do the people angry with the ads get pissed off every time they open their Sunday newspaper or any day for that matter and see a bunch of advertisements interspersed among their news or do they just skip over them and read the articles in which they are interested. You all act like Tivo is a non-profit out to do what is in YOUR best interest. Tivo is a profit driven company who answers to their shareholders, not you. They are in the DVR business to make money and part of that comes from selling ad space, just like a newspaper or magazine which you also pay a subscription fee for. If you prefer, Tivo could always do away with the non-obtrusive ads and just sell your personal info to other companies like many others do leading to non-stop credit card approvals, etc.

Forgive me if I sound like a Tivo apologist but I've seen this complaint OVER and OVER by people who apparently don't understand how businesses are run or the point of a publicly traded company. Granted, there are other options besides advertising for Tivo to make money, but, seriously, with the cable co. DVR's being offered cheaper than Tivo's monthly service, most people are not savvy enough to realize the benefits that Tivo provides over those other DVR's and are therefore not willing to pay the higher cost for a Tivo. Tivo remains a rather niche market for higher-end users. Joe Schmo who wants a digital VCR will not opt for a Tivo when he sees a cable company DVR provides the services he is looking for. Little does he know that so much more is available with the current technology. I guess maybe Tivo needs to do a better job with their advertising because apparently that point is not getting across. So, the only solutions are to raise prices or sell advertising. If you ask me, and I'm sure most Tivo users agree, the ads are better option over having to pay higher rates per month, and I think Tivo sees it the same way. They'd rather pass the cost on to advertisers than to their customers who are already paying a premium for the service.

Speaking of services that were/are supposed to be ad-free...I've received several text messages on my cell phone from advertisers, including Verizon (my cell phone provider) which I have to pay for every time I am sent a text message. I also have Sirius satellite radio which is was advertised as commercial free radio. Yet, the Howard Stern show takes breaks throughout the show with several minutes of ads even though I pay for a monthly service.

Maybe it's because I've had Tivo for a few years and am accustomed to the layout of the menus but I couldn't tell you what ads (gold star or end-program) that have been on my Tivo's in the last several years. I don't even notice the gold star ads anymore and just go directly to the Now Playing or Find Programs screens. As for the end-program ads, I do notice those because I've only seen maybe a half dozen in over 3 years, but I couldn't tell you what they were for because I know when the show ends that Delete This Program is Up once and thats what I hit as soon as the menu pops up.

People bitch about this like Tivo is taking over your TV and forcing you to watch commercials. If these line ads are that big of a deal that are annoying you...the solution is simple, cancel your service and go get a cable company DVR. I know a lot of people don't like that answer, but it's the truth. If these minor ads are causing you enough distress to post about it on here, then maybe the other DVR's would be more suited to your needs. If it's not that big of a deal, then let it go. If Tivo doesn't use the ads, they will lose money and may, eventually, have to cease operations. Would you prefer that alternative? If so, then, again the cable company is waiting for your call. If not, then bite your tongue. Compaining here will do no good, and again, would you prefer the alternative?
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Old 12-16-2007, 12:09 AM   #99
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Heck, even on a TV Guide softwared Cableco DVR, there is an ad at the bottom of every page in the guide, so unless you use the page buttons, you are forced to pass through them.
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Old 12-16-2007, 11:45 PM   #100
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lol... this is getting ridiculous. I was just offering my own opinion that I thought seeing the ads was annoying, but apparently not only are you responding to that, many more people in the past have said they think it's annoying?!? Rather interesting that this feeling isn't in any way isolated, yet the response is shut the heck up, this isn't really a problem.

You're telling me to cancel my service if I think it's so annoying, yet you couldn't by-pass a topic that was clearly marked "hey, read-me if I want to see people bitch and moan about TiVo ads!!!"

WhiskeyTango, I do not read the Sunday paper. My cell phone company does not send me text ads. I sent "STOP" to a number they told me a long time ago and registered my cell # on the do not call list and I haven't seen those since. Why exactly did you click here if you're so sick of the complaining? No, cancelling my service is not the only solution. I hit the left button after a program and do not see any ads as a result!

Zeo, I almost religiously delete all programs after I'm done watching them. I'm down to four lines on my Now Playing screen (including suggestions) and watching Netflix DVD's instead. WTH did you get that ridiculous conclusion?

RBlount, YEAH complaining makes me feel better! I even got a few solutions to the issue at hand as a result! Did you read the topic before clicking in if complaining about the ads bothers you so much? Interestingly enough, though, the reason why you think TiVo may not be for me is probably also the same reason it's not doing so hot (most folks just need a DVR). *shrug*

Hey, if I have to research a product before purchasing it just so I don't expect no ads and suddenly start seeing them, how's that different from the risk you take when you purchase a lifetime service and the product turns out not to be available throughout your lifetime? How about Mom and Pop stores that eventually go out of business because a Walmart moved into town? If you're truly a fan of capitalism, you'd know the stronger business model almost always wins and your charity will not be enough to keep what you seem to feel is a weak business model afloat.

BTW: I don't necessarily think TiVo's model is weak. I'm just frustrated that they must advertise to make some real cheddah. However, I'm not particularly grateful that they chose not to pass on higher costs to their customers. If they had done that, the DVRs from the Cable or Sat companies would be even more cost competitive and I believe that they would have even fewer customers. I know personally I didn't jump on the TiVo bandwagon until the price of the box came down below $100.

Last edited by JaneiR36 : 12-17-2007 at 12:02 AM.
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Old 12-17-2007, 12:03 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by JaneiR36 View Post
lol... this is getting ridiculous. I was just offering my own opinion that I thought seeing the ads was annoying, but apparently not only are you responding to that, many more people in the past have said they think it's annoying?!? Rather interesting that this feeling isn't in any way isolated, yet the response is shut the heck up, this isn't really a problem. ...
I also don't understand why there are people here that tell me the ads don't bother me.
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Old 12-17-2007, 02:00 AM   #102
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I also don't understand why there are people here that tell me the ads don't bother me.
No, no, they're not saying that. They're saying that complaining about the ads we're being too picky.

Now, let me not deceive you. I think the ads are fine. I'm sure that my opinion is colored by the fact that Tivo was a market innovator and now stands alone in keeping me from having to put up with the evil cableco DVR.

BTW, let's not forget to add Microsoft's UltimateTV to the list of competitive failures in this marketplace.
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Old 12-17-2007, 04:08 AM   #103
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No, no, they're not saying that. They're saying that complaining about the ads we're being too picky. ...
Even with the clarification, no one can argue that what I perceive to be annoying is NOT annoying. Perception of the additional TiVo menu items is subjective. I personally I HATE them, but I respect that other people don't hate them.

On this board there is another thread, where a poster (Zeo if I remember correctly), has made it clear that some of the animated ads take up too much screen real estate, and interfere with his enjoyment of the show being broadcast. He stated that he will probably not watch the network when they air that particular show again. Additionally, he is going to complain to the network. Both actions are appropriate responses to a situation that he feels is unacceptable.

My problem is this: Since it was his invisible line that was crossed, it's justifiable for him to publically state this, but when another poster's invisible line, that is set lower than his line, is crossed, it has to be pointed out that the person with the lower threshold is just not perceiving things the "right way". In other words his way. This is hypocritical. Live and let live. Everyone has an opinion, and just becasue it's been posted here, doesn't mean that someone has to try and dispute it. It's not like someone is claiming that 2+2=5.

Getting back to the animated ads: I disagree with Zeo's opinion that the animated ads are a reason to stop watching a show, but I did not chastise, or attempt to tell him that he is wrong. It bothers him, and he is taking action that he feels is appropriate. Kudos!

With all that said, I really dislike the TiVo ads. They annoy me. I also feel ripped off that I pay for a service that includes ads. It made me mad when someone posted that the ads don't appear until after the 30 day trail period is up. I don't know if this is accurate information, but if it is, arguing that you want to cancel your subscription, without penalty, holds a lot more weight if no ads were displayed during the trial period. The ads are not new, they are definitely part of the user interface, and to hold them back for the trial period is deceptive because it does not give an accurate representation of the real TiVo interface. Shame on TiVo if they are really doing this. Again, I don't know if that information is accurate, as I have no way of confirming this behavior - not without joining up as a new, never subscribed customer.

I am a very devoted TiVo fan, and I have spent a lot of money with them in the approximately seven years I have been a subscriber. I will NOT cancel my TiVo service until my invisible line is crossed, and frankly, I am not sure where that line sits yet. It hasn't been crossed, and it will take a lot to actually push me over it, but with each additional menu item / ad, it gets closer. Once it is crossed, I will be gone. Not a threat: Just a fact that I hope TiVo is interested in hearing.

Don't you think that TiVo wants to hear this type of detailed feedback? Granted, the demographics can't be taken into account, but as a general "gauge" I would think that they welcome people's opinions. Especially if it might one day lead to losing a subscription.
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Old 12-17-2007, 11:08 AM   #104
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Just to clarify, do you find the advertisements themselves annoying, or the fact that TiVo gives you the ability to click and watch them annoying? Compared to Internet advertising, would you rate it as more or less intrusive? Same question for those pop-up ads at the bottom of TV shows (done by the networks).

In my opinion, Tivo still gives you the ability to skip all of those commercials located in your shows. That has not changed. The menus include options to watch commercials or not.

Also, I am sure TiVo loves the feedback everyone on this board gives. I think they have made a very serious effort not to alter your ability to do everything you do today with a TiVo interface. They haven't forced additional clicking that I have seen, nor have they forced additional fast-forwarding, and they have not shrunk your menu guide (like comcast).

Believe me...if you are not aware of Comcast's butchering of its guides with ad placement, you should check it out.
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Old 12-20-2007, 02:12 PM   #105
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Just to clarify, do you find the advertisements themselves annoying, or the fact that TiVo gives you the ability to click and watch them annoying?
Simply, ads should *never* appear in a UI or content situation. When I drive my car, I should not have to scour the dashboard to find the gas gauge and speedometer amongst the ads pasted there. When I use my word processor, the menu shouldn't read Cut, Copy, Buy Coke, Paste.

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All of these except the delete ones have been on my boxes longer than a year. What hardware do you have?
The Series 2 ad delivery to Canada has been on a different schedule than the US. You had ads long before we did.

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With comments like this you've lost all credibility. Nonsensical exaggeration (or untruths) doesn't build up your point.
Dude. Those are *truths*. Sorry to interfere with your blind love of Tivo:

Guide data and approx. 10 channels missing for almost *THREE* months (and counting, I'll be shocked if they fix this before April 2008):
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...18#post5669118
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Old 12-20-2007, 03:12 PM   #106
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Can't even get the freakin' guide data right for two+ months or bugs fixed in the software for over a year, but hey, we don't have time to deal with trivial items like that, we've got our entire staff working on ad delivery.
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With comments like this you've lost all credibility. Nonsensical exaggeration (or untruths) doesn't build up your point.
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Dude. Those are *truths*. Sorry to interfere with your blind love of Tivo:

Guide data and approx. 10 channels missing for almost *THREE* months (and counting, I'll be shocked if they fix this before April 2008):
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...18#post5669118
Point me to any evidence of bugs not fixed for over a year or the entire staff working on ad delivery. I call bullsh1t on you lame claim to 'truth'.

I am no fan-boy, it is just useless claims of truth on exaggerated issues make you look foolish.
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Old 12-20-2007, 03:24 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Fraser+Dief View Post
Simply, ads should *never* appear in a UI or content situation. When I drive my car, I should not have to scour the dashboard to find the gas gauge and speedometer amongst the ads pasted there. When I use my word processor, the menu shouldn't read Cut, Copy, Buy Coke, Paste.
These are such disingenuous complaints. I think that's why people get so vehement on both sides of this disagreement. I don't have a problem with the ads. I know there are people that do. No biggie to me that they do. After all, it's not my place to tell someone what bothers them. But to make an argument like "my car doesn't have ads" makes the entire debate so specious . . .

My car doesn't either, but my newspaper does. And most web pages do. And yet I pay a subscription price for both my paper and ISP. So why ads?

See how ridiculous my argument sounds?
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Old 12-21-2007, 04:53 PM   #108
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On this board there is another thread, where a poster (Zeo if I remember correctly), has made it clear that some of the animated ads take up too much screen real estate, and interfere with his enjoyment of the show being broadcast. He stated that he will probably not watch the network when they air that particular show again. Additionally, he is going to complain to the network. Both actions are appropriate responses to a situation that he feels is unacceptable.

My problem is this: Since it was his invisible line that was crossed, it's justifiable for him to publicly state this, but when another poster's invisible line, that is set lower than his line, is crossed, it has to be pointed out that the person with the lower threshold is just not perceiving things the "right way". In other words his way. This is hypocritical. Live and let live.
there is nothing hypocritical in what I have done. You want to recast things in your own light to make your side sound better but that just backfires on you.

IN the the thread I started out querying people about the ads that broadcasters put up over top of the show. They were saying they took up 1/3 rd of the screen. I called BS a ta first but they showed me the Chuck episode(which I had recorded but not watched yet. What Did I do about it? just what you said. I deleted the show and season pass, I emailed the broadcaster and told them why I was no longer watching the show or going to their company website which was the crux of the ad.
What I did not do was immediately start 4 new threads on the subject complaining about it because that I would consider a waste of my time. I even was done with the original thread as I stated my piece and then did it.

Still these ads on TiVo threads keep going and only one person has taken action on it. You all can complain all you want about something you say annoys you but until you take specific action that shows the company it is not a viable approach, I and more importantly the company will not take you seriously
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Old 12-21-2007, 06:43 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo View Post
there is nothing hypocritical in what I have done. You want to recast things in your own light to make your side sound better but that just backfires on you.
You missed my whole point. Everyone's line is in a different place.

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Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo View Post
IN the the thread I started out querying people about the ads that broadcasters put up over top of the show. They were saying they took up 1/3 rd of the screen. I called BS a ta first but they showed me the Chuck episode(which I had recorded but not watched yet. What Did I do about it? just what you said. I deleted the show and season pass, I emailed the broadcaster and told them why I was no longer watching the show or going to their company website which was the crux of the ad.
What I did not do was immediately start 4 new threads on the subject complaining about it because that I would consider a waste of my time. I even was done with the original thread as I stated my piece and then did it.
I read the entire thread before making my post. This doesn't change my opinion. I'll state it again: Everyone's line as in a different place.

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Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo View Post
Still these ads on TiVo threads keep going and only one person has taken action on it. You all can complain all you want about something you say annoys you but until you take specific action that shows the company it is not a viable approach, I and more importantly the company will not take you seriously
I don't like the ads. I have made it known to TiVo that I don't like the ads. At this point in time, I will not cancel my subscription because my line has not been crossed. I am not sure where the breaking point is, but as you found out, once I see it, I will know. That is when I will cancel. This is the risk that TiVo takes every time they take $$ for ads.

If you don't take me seriously, I will get by. If TiVo doesn't take me seriously, that would be a shame. I am a paying customer that wants to continue to be a paying customer. I have passed along valuable feedback to them. Are you saying that I should cancel my subscription even though I don't want to?
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Old 12-25-2007, 05:56 PM   #110
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Nope. But I can say I have yet to see the first post in all these many threads on someone telling me they cancelled. What proof do you have that anyone has cancelled over the ads?
Today is your lucky day!

I am going to give you your first, second, third and fourth and fifth person who has cancelled over their ads.

First I would like to point out that it is highly unlikely that people who get POed over ads an cancel TiVo are going to hang around these forums just to let others know they cancelled over the ads.

I came upon this topic whilst doing a random search and got a link from another site. I originally purchased my TiVo in 1999. Yep, waaaay back then. That was before subscriptions were even necessary. I liked it so much I got my brother into it, and we got our parents one for XMas and our sister and grandmother too.

The first ad I remember was a new section on the TiVo main menu entitled something like "hot free offer from Lexus" and was a short commercial my TiVo had downloaded about how I could win a free Lexus. I called TiVo to complain and the ignoramus just kept parroting "its not an advertisement, its a free offer its different". Right. Shortly after TiVo did the whole "3.0" thing where they added the ability to tranfer shows between TiVos and upload pictures and do remote scheduling. And they started charging more for it. Around this time I noticed additional advertising coming my way. I cancelled my service and told them I thought the fact that I was now paying for data that was essentially free (TiVo does not create the guide data, they just distribute it) and also having them pump ads into my TiVo was too much. They argued with me whether it was ads or "free offers". I told them to shove it and I sold my TiVO. I then built a media PC with a hard drive that is superior to the TiVo in every way (IMO). I can download stuff from the internet and watch it, I can play DVD's, record/store/play Mp3's and pictures, use plug-ins for weather and traffic info, control my lighting and appliances, access it remotely to transfer files, schedule recordings from anywhere, extract and burn any shows I want and much more. And there are no monthly fees, no restrictions on what I can do, no advertising and I can add hard drives to my hearts content (currently have around 2TB of storage). Once my brother saw how much better this was than TiVo, he joined me and did the same thing, cancelling TiVo and letting them know the ads pushed him over the edge. My parents weren't into that level of effort to build an HTPC (and at that time there was really nothing off-the-shelf) so they waited until DirecTV came out with the HR20 and they got one which they like far far more than their TiVo overall. They say the TiVo was easier to use but the integration of the HR20 combined with the fact that it can record two shows at once and has no monthly fee and records in HD and "just works" is much better for them than the series I TiVO ever was. They had lifetime on their TiVo so there was really no cancellation involved, but they elected NOT go continue with TiVo based on our (me and my brother) recommending against TiVo due to the slippery slope argument you guys call false, as well as a cheaper and better performing alternative from DirecTV. We recently (this XMas) just got a 2nd HR20 for my grandmother.

So now we have no TiVos and overall we are much happier. I initially missed the ease of use of the TiVo but I'd never give up all the features I have now to go back. None of us ever found suggestions very useful so that is a non-issue, and once you know how to use the HR20 I dont think its any harder to use than TiVo - it's just different.

So, there you go - that sort of puts a dent in your "never heard of anyone cancelling over ads" argument - now you know of five folks.

Furthermore, I got on this forum years ago. Either I dont remember my account info or it was purged for lack of use - but I really don't recognize any of the posters on here. I remember when TiVolutionary was a regular poster along with Pony and I remember how big a blow it was when TiVolutionary went over to ReplayTV. That was at the very end of my tenure here - when I had started this forum barely had any posts at all. Almost all the people I remember have moved on. That may or may not be because of ads, but it's silly to presume that all of them leaving were because of reasons other than ads. That's akin to sticking one's head in the sand and proclaiming that there cannot be a forest fire surrounding you because you do not see it, therefore it must not exist.

Probably won't be back around to reply - just dropping in to make this post in response to the quote above. Not saying I won't be back for hate of TiVo or fear of reprisals, I have just moved on from the world of increasing monthly costs that are delivered along with increasing numbers of ads. Good luck to TiVo, from the latest financials I've seen they are going to need it.
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Old 12-26-2007, 03:24 AM   #111
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...but my newspaper does. And most web pages do. And yet I pay a subscription price for both my paper and ISP. So why ads?

See how ridiculous my argument sounds?
Why do so many people keep using this analogy? Tivo, newspaper/magazine, and ISPs all have totally different business models that don't even relate to one another.

The price you pay for a periodical is for the distribution. The physical media is paid for by the advertising. Oh, and you're fooling yourself if you bring up the "Tivo takes a loss on hardware, so ads are justified" argument. Not everyone takes the mail-in rebate that is usually offered, so why should those folks have to put up with the ads?

Your ISP is merely a pathway for content, just like cable and satellite TV. Your monthly fee, sans premium fees, pays for the pathway infrastructure and it's maintenance. The content in and of itself is a totally different animal all together, and this what advertising pays for (non-premium stuff).

The thing about Tivo is that they are blatant example of the "bait and hook" business model. They do not provide any content whatsoever, so there is no reason for it. Imagine buying the latest & greatest coffee pot with all of the advanced bells and whistles, including a pretty LCD readout on the front. Now, envision not being able to brew your morning joe unless you hook the pot up to the 'net and pay a monthly fee for the coffee brewing "service". To top it off, because you ARE hooked the 'net, you're inundated with a barrage of "Head-On, apply directly to the forehead" ads on the pretty LCD display. When you call to complain, the CSR tells you that the ads are necessary so that they can continue to provide the rich brewing experience you have come to know and love. What would you do?

At one of our family gatherings this past weekend, someone asked about Tivo. Another member of the family (not me) blurted out, "don't they charge a monthly fee just to record T.V.?" I kindly spoke up and said, "Yes they do. Not only that, but they 'partner' with third parties to send advertisements to the box in the form of extra menu selections, popup ads, FF ads, showcase ads, etc. In addition, you are at their mercy when it comes to recording a show. Someone in the 'chain' may decide that they don't want a show to be recorded. All they have to do is send the Tivo a 'signal' and it won't record." Needless to say, everyone else pretty much said "eww, I'm never getting a Tivo."

BTW, hi Zeo!! *waves*

___

Last edited by Fixer : 12-26-2007 at 03:41 AM.
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Old 12-26-2007, 11:01 AM   #112
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Your ISP is merely a pathway for content, just like cable and satellite TV. Your monthly fee, sans premium fees, pays for the pathway infrastructure and it's maintenance. The content in and of itself is a totally different animal all together, and this what advertising pays for (non-premium stuff).
funny - TWC here where I am does add in their own commercials for local businesses. That happens pretty much everywhere
Quote:
The thing about Tivo is that they are blatant example of the "bait and hook" business model.
if they are so blatant then it should be easy for you to provide the details of this. I myself found no bait and hook, but ads and a TiVo box clearly stating that paying for a subscription service was needed to use the TiVo.

Quote:
Imagine buying the latest & greatest coffee pot with all of the advanced bells and whistles, including a pretty LCD readout on the front.
did that coffeepot have software that was constantly being upgraded to provide new features. For instance could I play free music videos in the morning while I brew the coffee? Oh, I see - it is just a coffee machine and NOTHING like a DVR or TiVo to be more specific.

Quote:
At one of our family gatherings this past weekend, someone asked about Tivo. Another member of the family (not me) blurted out, "don't they charge a monthly fee just to record T.V.?" I kindly spoke up and said, "Yes they do. Not only that, but they 'partner' with third parties to send advertisements to the box in the form of extra menu selections, popup ads, FF ads, showcase ads, etc.
yah those ads are on every menu and on top of the shows themselves and reach out and hit you on the forehead. Wow do you expect to be taken seriously with so much exaggeration? BUT WAIT there's more if you act right away ...
Quote:
In addition, you are at their mercy when it comes to recording a show. Someone in the 'chain' may decide that they don't want a show to be recorded. All they have to do is send the Tivo a 'signal' and it won't record."
yah, that happens to me at least once a week if not more.
So no one was up for paying the subscription service(which BTW, was clearly known even by people who had little interest in TiVo at your family get together - so much for bait and hook) in the first place and thus all your exaggerating did was just make the group think of , "gee, are we not all so clever" just go in deeper without any real intelligent thought involved.

so they can now wither Be there promptly at 8pm to watch their show and deal with a whole lot more ads in one show then will show up on the TiVo in 6 months or else get DVRs from the broadcaster and pay them a monthly fee for the DVR anyway, along with the monthly bill in which they hide further digital/DVR charges, and still get ads on those DVRs anyway.
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Old 12-27-2007, 06:58 AM   #113
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This isn't charity, if Tivo were to cease business, I would be forced to use (IMHO) a substandard DVR service.
See, that's the problem right there. Why do people keep referring to TiVo, or any DVR for that matter, as a "service"?

Zeo: Yes, the fancy coffee pot can play music videos. It even has a stock ticker and a live video stream of "FOX & Friends".

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Last edited by Fixer : 12-27-2007 at 07:15 AM.
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Old 12-27-2007, 07:19 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Fixer View Post
See, that's the problem right there. Why do people keep referring to TiVo, or any DVR for that matter, as a "service"?

___
Because it is not a one time purchase. When I purchased the Tivo box, I understood that I would have to continue paying a monthly fee to provide me with, not only the guide data, but updates to the core functionality. I consider that a service.

Edit to add:

Unless you don't believe your own signature, you also consider Tivo a service also:

Quote:
TiVo should sell its boxes and service on its own merits, and not rely on "advertiser support". TiVo, "TV THEIR way".

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Old 12-27-2007, 07:31 AM   #115
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Pwned.
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Old 12-27-2007, 07:53 AM   #116
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Because it is not a one time purchase. When I purchased the Tivo box, I understood that I would have to continue paying a monthly fee to provide me with, not only the guide data, but updates to the core functionality. I consider that a service.

Edit to add:

Unless you don't believe your own signature, you also consider Tivo a service also:
The guide data is only thing I would consider a "service" and is what I am referring to in my signature. From a technical standpoint, the TiVo box should be able to pull guide data from any provider you choose; that is, if the box is properly hacked to do so (theoretical). Think of it as akin to unlocking a cell phone.

Regarding updates: Does the TiVo agreement promise updates? I haven't read it verbatim, but I bet the word "may" shows up a lot. I'm sure they've also reserved the right to remove "functionality" as they see fit, hence, "TV THEIR way".

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Last edited by Fixer : 12-27-2007 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 12-27-2007, 09:27 AM   #117
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The price you pay for a periodical is for the distribution. The physical media is paid for by the advertising.
Do they keep the money in separate lockboxes?
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Old 12-27-2007, 10:04 AM   #118
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The guide data is only thing I would consider a "service" and is what I am referring to in my signature. From a technical standpoint, the TiVo box should be able to pull guide data from any provider you choose; that is, if the box is properly hacked to do so (theoretical). Think of it as akin to unlocking a cell phone.
So your point now is that Tivo DOES offer Service, but you it should be free (or low cost)? Do you think that Tivo gets from the Tribune for free? Tribune SELLS its programing information for a Fee. Yes, there are places to get this information for free, but not in the detail that allows a Tivo to do many of advanced scheduling features (Season Passes, 28 Day Rule, Wishlists, etc.)

IIRC, MythTV used a "backdoor" to the Zap2it to pull guide data for "FREE". Tribune did not like that people were getting data that they worked hard to collect, without paying for it. That loophole has since been closed, with Tribune offering to allow MythTV to connect, but at a price.

Quote:
Regarding updates: Does the TiVo agreement promise updates? I haven't read it verbatim, but I bet the word "may" shows up a lot. I'm sure they've also reserved the right to remove "functionality" as they see fit, hence, "TV THEIR way".

___
I have not read the complete agreement either, but I am willing to bet that Tivo has the right (within their agreement) to add or remove features as they feel is appropriate. I doubt this any different than any other software company (Microsoft, Symantec, Oracle, Apple, etc.) Although I am sure someone can point to one, I can not recall any feature they have removed (even if they are somewhat hidden, i.e. 30sec skip.)
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Old 12-27-2007, 04:28 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by astrohip View Post
My car doesn't either, but my newspaper does. And most web pages do. And yet I pay a subscription price for both my paper and ISP. So why ads?

See how ridiculous my argument sounds?
Not quite! There are websites I used to visit very often but eventually stopped using because they advertised too much, and sometimes the ads included spyware. It was just overwhelming and I no longer felt I could see the content I wanted, even though I really liked it. I switched over to another site with the same kind of information, even paying a subscription fee in one case. They say you get what you pay for, sometimes I am of the (apparently false) impression that paying more gets you away from certain kinds of ads.

I also started exclusively using Google as a search engine and my Home page just because of the simplicity of it, which rolls into how quickly the search pages load (only or mostly text advertising links, too, as far as I can see). I am definitely a fan of a clean format.

Maybe TiVo could clear off the ad from the screen after it's viewed, or give some sort of option to do so. I'm guessing they won't, though, just because they want all members of your household to be able to see their ad.

DCIFRTHS, now I'm guessing the ads didn't show up right away because my box did not ship with the latest software, so between downloading those updates and downloading the ad data, it must have taken a few weeks.
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Old 12-27-2007, 06:24 PM   #120
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See, that's the problem right there. Why do people keep referring to TiVo, or any DVR for that matter, as a "service"?

Zeo: Yes, the fancy coffee pot can play music videos. It even has a stock ticker and a live video stream of "FOX & Friends".

___
yep, just a couple of factual problems in the post but at least the coffee is fair and balanced...
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