2.2 TB S3 limitation

[colin1497]

Reading the sticky FAQ, it says:

# What is the maximum capacity supported?

The TiVo Series3 currently supports a maximum of 2.2TB total storage. With the "plug and play" eSATA support, you can use a "Non Verified" 1TB eSATA drive in addition to the built-in 250GB drive, for a total of 1.25TB storage. You can upgrade the built-in drive as well, but that requires the "hack" discussed in Part III, #9 of this FAQ.

The TiVoHD supports a maximum of 16 exabytes, but the "plug and play" eSATA support only works with the 500Gb Western Digital My DVR Expander. If you want more than 500Gb of expansion, you'll have to use a "Non Verified" drive and add it with the "hack" discussed in Part III, #10 of this FAQ.

Does anyone know if there are plans to up the limit on the S3's?

[Mars Rocket]

I'm pretty sure it's a firmware limitation, and if so I doubt there will ever be a way of bypassing the limit.

[JamieP]

Originally Posted by Mars Rocket

I'm pretty sure it's a firmware limitation, and if so I doubt there will ever be a way of bypassing the limit.

I don't believe it is a firmware (PROM code) limitation. It's all in the on disk software and data structures.

In theory, I believe, a Series3 could run with the mfs64 file system format, but it seems unlikely that tivo will ever want to field update existing units to the new data structures. Too much chance of something going wrong, messing up an otherwise working tivo.

It's quite possible that tivo will eventually ship new Series3's with the mfs64 file system format. DIYers may also go to the effort to construct mfs64 images for the Series3.

[colin1497]

Originally Posted by JamieP

I don't believe it is a firmware (PROM code) limitation. It's all in the on disk software and data structures.

In theory, I believe, a Series3 could run with the mfs64 file system format, but it seems unlikely that tivo will ever want to field update existing units to the new data structures. Too much chance of something going wrong, messing up an otherwise working tivo.

It's quite possible that tivo will eventually ship new Series3's with the mfs64 file system format. DIYers may also go to the effort to construct mfs64 images for the Series3.

Right, it's about the file system. That should be something you could possibly get around DIY as you mention. Anyone know if anyone's tried? What forums out there discuss stuff like this? I'm relatively new to the Tivo environment, as the S3 is my first Tivo box and mine's been bone stock for 12 months so far...

[JamieP]

Originally Posted by colin1497

Right, it's about the file system. That should be something you could possibly get around DIY as you mention. Anyone know if anyone's tried? What forums out there discuss stuff like this? I'm relatively new to the Tivo environment, as the S3 is my first Tivo box and mine's been bone stock for 12 months so far...

I don't know anyone who has tried it. DDB or mfslive.org are the places to look.

The "Building MFS from scratch on an S2" thread on DDB outlines the basic approach, but would have to be adapted somewhat to start with a blank mfs64 file system. Since tivo no longer ships an "fsmake", you'd probably need to write that from scratch, which would require a pretty good understanding of the mfs64 data structures. Alternatively, you might be able to start with an mfs64 file system from a TiVoHD and delete everything in it to create a blank MFS.

Needless to say, this is a project only for someone with a hacked S3 and some file system data structure analysis skills, or at least the time and desire to learn.

[qz3fwd]

More than likely the tivo S3/HD Probably uses some sort of signed driver and the filesystem Probably uses encryption thanks to the bumbling cablelabs fools, so hacking to a new filesystem might not be soo easy. Or maybe there is hardware encryption/decryption and they use a plain vanilla filesystem module?

[cramer]

Originally Posted by JamieP

... it seems unlikely that tivo will ever want to field update existing units to the new data structures.

They've done it before on S1 SA's... 1.3 -> 2.0 was a one way process. Once the "convertdb" process is started, it must run to completion; once complete, the mfs database is no longer backward compatible. (read: it's not tested, not likely to work, and not supported in any way if you attempt it.)

They also said they'd never do PROM updates in the field, but there are reports that they have. And that's 100% not field repairable. It won't even boot with a screwed up PROM.

[lrhorer]

Originally Posted by qz3fwd

More than likely the tivo S3/HD Probably uses some sort of signed driver and the filesystem Probably uses encryption thanks to the bumbling cablelabs fools, so hacking to a new filesystem might not be soo easy. Or maybe there is hardware encryption/decryption and they use a plain vanilla filesystem module?

There is no encryption built into the MFS file system on the S3 or any other TiVo. Encryption is handled by the OS as the file is written, and there is nothing to prevent unencrypted files from existing on the MFS partition, except that the OS does not write them that way. Indeed, I do not know but what unencrypted files transferred to the TiVo via TTCB may not be encrypted on the TiVo.

[JamieP]

Originally Posted by cramer

They've done it before on S1 SA's... 1.3 -> 2.0 was a one way process. Once the "convertdb" process is started, it must run to completion; once complete, the mfs database is no longer backward compatible. (read: it's not tested, not likely to work, and not supported in any way if you attempt it.)

They also said they'd never do PROM updates in the field, but there are reports that they have. And that's 100% not field repairable. It won't even boot with a screwed up PROM.

True enough. Virtually every new software upgrade involves an irreversible mfs data base version upgrade.

I just don't see that TiVo has any motivation to upgrade the Series3's in the field to mfs64. The only reason I could think they might do that is if they started to ship a hardware product (e.g. an external expansion solution) that depended on it. I don't see them doing it to help out the DIY'ers who want to expand onto a large raid array.

[colin1497]

Originally Posted by JamieP

True enough. Virtually every new software upgrade involves an irreversible mfs data base version upgrade.

I just don't see that TiVo has any motivation to upgrade the Series3's in the field to mfs64. The only reason I could think they might do that is if they started to ship a hardware product (e.g. an external expansion solution) that depended on it. I don't see them doing it to help out the DIY'ers who want to expand onto a large raid array.

It won't be long before they will be shipping larger external drives. It's just a matter of time before 2TB isn't enough...

[dshlyam]

My first post, so take it easy.

I see conflicting information on the maximum capacity of S3. The FAQ quoted by OP states that it’s 2.2tb but the previous version of the same states that it’s 2bt (binary) which equals about 10% for in marketing sizes. So, if someone can clarify the actual size in bytes that is THE maximum for S3, it would be greatly appreciated.

The reason I’m asking is simple. If the max is 2.2tb in real bytes it would equal 2.2 x 2^40 (1,099,511,627,776) bytes = 2,418,925,581,107, which would mean that 250gb stock drive plus a RAID enclosure with 2 x 1tb drive, measured in marketing numbers, will fit nicely in the 2.2tb limitation. 2.25tb x 1,000,000,000,000 = 2,250,000,000,000.

Thoughts?

[sfhub]

Originally Posted by dshlyam

My first post, so take it easy.

I see conflicting information on the maximum capacity of S3. The FAQ quoted by OP states that it’s 2.2tb but the previous version of the same states that it’s 2bt (binary) which equals about 10% for in marketing sizes. So, if someone can clarify the actual size in bytes that is THE maximum for S3, it would be greatly appreciated.

The reason I’m asking is simple. If the max is 2.2tb in real bytes it would equal 2.2 x 2^40 (1,099,511,627,776) bytes = 2,418,925,581,107, which would mean that 250gb stock drive plus a RAID enclosure with 2 x 1tb drive, measured in marketing numbers, will fit nicely in the 2.2tb limitation. 2.25tb x 1,000,000,000,000 = 2,250,000,000,000.

Thoughts?

For S3 (32-bit MFS filesystem) 2.2TB (base10) or 2TiB (base2) total filesystem space (all drives together).

According to Spike, there was a bug in old mfstools zone creation which limited a single drive to 1TiB but that has been fixed.
http://mfslive.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=257

However I don't recall anyone trying internal 250GB + eSATA 2TB. Maybe somebody has but I haven't read about it. I imagine you will lose at least some % of storage space when creating the RAID volume for metadata, so the whole setup will probably be under the 2TiB aggregate limit for TiVo MFS.

In theory it should work, but there is always uncertainty until someone has tried it and confirmed it works.

BTW over 2TiB on a single physical disk, you run into various per disk limits all over the place, in partition tables, windows XP, SATA controller/drivers, etc. that may force you to go to XP 64, Vista, GPT, etc. before WinMFS will work. If you keep reading the above referenced thread, you will see the issues when someone tried 5TB RAID with TiVo HD. It sounds like there is a problem with zones > 2TiB and it isn't clear where the problem is right now.

[dshlyam]

Originally Posted by sfhub

However I don't recall anyone trying internal 250GB + eSATA 2TB. Maybe somebody has but I haven't read about it. I imagine you will lose at least some % of storage space when creating the RAID volume for metadata, so the whole setup will probably be under the 2TiB aggregate limit for TiVo MFS.

In theory it should work, but there is always uncertainty until someone has tried it and confirmed it works.

BTW over 2TiB on a single physical disk, you run into various per disk limits all over the place, in partition tables, windows XP, SATA controller/drivers, etc. that may force you to go to XP 64, Vista, GPT, etc. before WinMFS will work. If you keep reading the above referenced thread, you will see the issues when someone tried 5TB RAID with TiVo HD. It sounds like there is a problem with zones > 2TiB and it isn't clear where the problem is right now.

I'm going to give it a try.

I'm thinking about buying XTRASTOR ED-35-DUAL for $110 and 2 x HITACHI CinemaStar HCS721010KLA330 hard drives ($320 each). XTRASTOR can do RAID 0 and can support up to 2bt. At ~$750 this setup is cheaper than Buffalo Quatro and also smaller in size.

As far as other disk limitation. Perhaps I'm missing something, but based on the FAQ, I was under the impression that if I simply add an external drive (or a hardware RAID array) to an unmodified S3, TIVO should seamlessly add the storage. If my understanding is correct, then the only worry is if Tivo will add 2tb or not. Assuming the total capacity is over whatever the limit is for S3, do you think it will simply create the maximus size partition(s) up to the limit or will it not work at all?

Since I have 2 S3s, even if 2tb per Tivo setup won't work, I'll just add each of 1tb drives to each of the Tivos and will be done with it. But I really hope it does work.

[sfhub]

It is an interesting question whether the internal eSATA routines in the S3 would properly handle the 2TiB edge conditions.

I think most of the testing with larger disks has been done with MFSLive and WinMFS. Spike2k5 addresses any issues as they come along and there is probably more flexibility with an external tool which can massage things so TiVo is happy than there are with the built-in routines.

Anyway, in theory it should all work and I think if it doesn't work with the internal routines, WinMFS might still offer you a chance to make it work.

Let us know how it turns out.

[c3]

Originally Posted by dshlyam

I'm thinking about buying XTRASTOR ED-35-DUAL for $110 and 2 x HITACHI CinemaStar HCS721010KLA330 hard drives ($320 each). XTRASTOR can do RAID 0 and can support up to 2bt. At ~$750 this setup is cheaper than Buffalo Quatro and also smaller in size.

I would suggest using the BIG (concatenation) mode instead of RAID0, since TiVo does not need the high bandwidth of RAID0.

Unless you really want the CinemaStar, you can get two 1TB drives from buy.com for $490, Cavalry CADB002U32. Just take the two drives out. I'm 99% sure that they're WD 1TB drives with 3-year warranty.

[dshlyam]

Originally Posted by c3

Unless you really want the CinemaStar, you can get two 1TB drives from buy.com for $490, Cavalry CADB002U32. Just take the two drives out. I'm 99% sure that they're WD 1TB drives with 3-year warranty.

Hmm, this sure is $150 cheaper than $650 for CinemaStar. Now I'm going to buy those too. Worse case I'll have to return one set. Can I simply use attach the enclosure they are sold in?

The reason I'm looking at CinemaStar is the supposedly "made for DVR" design, specifically sound characteristics and constant write reliability. Do you know how WD drives mentioned above are sound wise? For one of my Tivo's in the living room higher levels of noise are not really important, but my bedroom Tivo I really like to have quiet drives. Is there a way to adjust WD drives sound profile?

[greg_burns]

Originally Posted by dshlyam

Can I simply use attach the enclosure they are sold in?

The Cavalry is a USB device, not eSata.

Edit: my mistake, this does have an eSata connection too

Thecus N2050 works as an enclosure, but it gets really hot.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=327556

[greg_burns]

Originally Posted by dshlyam

Is there a way to adjust WD drives sound profile?

You can with the Hitachi Feature Tool with WD drives. But the 1TB Green WD drives are suppose to whisper quiet to start with. Is that is what is in that thing?

[greg_burns]

Originally Posted by dshlyam

The reason I'm looking at CinemaStar is the supposedly "made for DVR" design, specifically sound characteristics and constant write reliability.

Some thoughts on the CinemaStar...

Originally Posted by jlib

The TiVo can't make use of any of the CinemaStar's extra features. It sees it as just an expensive DeskStar.

Originally Posted by teemu

Spike over at MFSLive seems to feel that the Deskstar is the equivalent of the Cinemastar once you use the AAM utility to make it nice and quiet. No good reason to blow the extra $40-$50.

[c3]

Originally Posted by dshlyam

Do you know how WD drives mentioned above are sound wise?

People who have both the Hitachi and WD drives say that the WD is quieter, after adjusting the AAM level to 128.

[c3]

Update: buy.com has the Cavalry CADA002SA2 for the same price as the other one: $490. Two 1TB drives (probably WD10EACS), USB, eSATA, RAID, etc.

[net114]

Am I the only one who is wondering what on Earth you need to save with that much memory?

Hate to sound like IBM, when they first thought no one could possibly go over 640K in their PC's...but.... I just don't save that many shows!! I definitely want an external drive, but just don't need that much.

Or is it more about just seeing if you can do it? (I can relate to that ha ha!)

[greg_burns]

Originally Posted by c3

Update: buy.com has the Cavalry CADA002SA2 for the same price as the other one: $490. Two 1TB drives (probably WD10EACS), USB, eSATA, RAID, etc.

Oh s*&t, it is eSATA afterall. Why didn't somebody correct me? Sorry about the mis-info.

You wouldn't know that by reading the specs, but the photo obviously shows it.

[sfhub]

Originally Posted by net114

Am I the only one who is wondering what on Earth you need to save with that much memory?

Hate to sound like IBM, when they first thought no one could possibly go over 640K in their PC's...but.... I just don't save that many shows!! I definitely want an external drive, but just don't need that much.

Or is it more about just seeing if you can do it? (I can relate to that ha ha!)

2.2TB isn't that much, around 250hrs of HD on a dual-tuner.

Many people have installed > 250GB drives on their SD TiVos.

Personally I think 2.2TB is kind of low for HD recording.

[c3]

Originally Posted by greg_burns

Oh s*&t, it is eSATA afterall. Why didn't somebody correct me? Sorry about the mis-info.

There are two different products. CADB002U32 is USB only (supposedly) and JBOD/BIG, and CADA002SA2 has USB, eSATA, and various RAID modes. The eSATA one was more expensive, but they're both at the same price now.

[dshlyam]

Originally Posted by c3

There are two different products. CADB002U32 is USB only (supposedly) and JBOD/BIG, and CADA002SA2 has USB, eSATA, and various RAID modes. The eSATA one was more expensive, but they're both at the same price now.

Success with Buy.com, less so with Tivo upgrade.

CADA002SA2 are now $700 at Buy.com. I ordered and paid for two at 490; total saving of $420. Now the best part... Buy.com sent me 4 units instead of 2 for the same money.


No luck upgrading my S3s. Trying plug-and-play method seems to work initially, where Tivo recognizes external storage and tries to add it, but then it goes into a perpetual reboot cycle. I tried reducing BIG (concatenated) volume size to 1750, 1600 and 1500mb without much success. Tivo will recognize the unit when set to SAVE (RAID1), but it's only 1tb.

Then I tried using MSF tools without much success either. WinMFS sees both 250gb original Tivo and 2tb external enclosure, but MFSadd doesn’t seem to do anything useful. It’s like nothing happens at all.

Granted I have many extra variables in the equation including using a laptop running W2k8 with CardBus ESATA adapter in addition to powering Tivo drive from an external power supply. Linux version of MFStools didn’t quite work either, seemingly due to the same PNY CardBus ESATA adapter, which was not recognized by OS.

My next step will be to add use a regular desktop PC with ESATA card running Vista 32bit. I did not have any problems seeing the whole 2tb drive in Vista and using Steelvine tools for the enclosure. The same cannot be said for Windows 2008, which while looks like Vista, is really not. Hopefully MFStools were not able to marry 2tb drive due to my setup and not some other reason. The program however, was able to see the drives and gave a success message on MFSadd command, so it may be something other than my setup. My local BestBuy is out of PCI ESATA cards, so the next attempt will have to wait a few days.


Why do you think Tivo wasn’t able to hook up the 2tb drive? Is it because of the size (although I went down to 1500mb) or because of the enclosure? If it’s the latter why the RAID1 mode worked flawlessly? Can S3 only support 1tb of external storage? Where did this “magic” 2.2tb number come from?

[greg_burns]

Originally Posted by dshlyam

Can S3 only support 1tb of external storage?

Justin Thyme did some experimentation
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...73#post5130373

Doesn't look like he could get 1.5TB (external) either with his S3.

Where did this “magic” 2.2tb number come from?

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...59#post5055659

Originally Posted by JamieP

It's 1TiB (~1.1TB) with signed 32 bit, 512 byte block numbers and 2TiB (~ 2.2TB) if unsigned.

MFS uses 32 bit addresses internally, and is thought to have a limit of 2TiB overall, with some display issues above 1TiB. It seems that some of the code that computes the displayed capacity is doing signed arithmetic rather than unsigned.

[sfhub]

Originally Posted by greg_burns

Justin Thyme did some experimentation
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...73#post5130373

Doesn't look like he could get 1.5TB (external) either with his S3.

I thought there was a bug in mfstools that Spike fixed (after Justin did that testing) that got S3's over the 1TB barrier and 2TB was achieved using 1TB internal and 1TB external.

This case is a little different, 250GB internal and > 1TB external, so it would be interesting to get a partition list of the external drive after WinMFS does it's thing.

[c3]

Originally Posted by dshlyam

I tried reducing BIG (concatenated) volume size to 1750, 1600 and 1500mb without much success.

Did you try BIG with size <=1TB? Leave the rest undefined, if possible. That would check if there is any issue with the firmware in the BIG mode.

[dshlyam]

Originally Posted by c3

Did you try BIG with size <=1TB? Leave the rest undefined, if possible. That would check if there is any issue with the firmware in the BIG mode.

Yep.

I have done a few tests since my previous post and BIG or RAID1 modes with total size less than 1tb work flawlessly. I have tried 931.67mb (max drive size) in both modes (BIG with 466mb per drive). I have yet to try 1024mb, but 1050 doesn’t work.

Now I’m watching MFScopy to copy stock Tivo drive to 1tb drive. I think some of my previous failures with WINMFS were due to its quirks, i.e. I was getting error number 4 (Cannot write to the new Drive) when running mfscopy until I initialized the destination drive in Windows Disk Manager. After this mfscopy began copying immediately. This sort of behavior tells me that perhaps WINmfs previous failure to marry 2tb drive to Tivo was due to the same issue, albeit without any error. Once mfscopy is done copying I will try to marry the drive again now after initializing the target.