TiVoHD vs. HTPC? Hmmm...

ACraigL · 11-17-2007, 11:38 PM

I have 2 S2 TiVos and a Comcast HD DVR for recording HD. I'm using that HD box more and more, despite the limited recording time. I have lifetime on one TiVo, and paying the $6.99 Multi-unit discount on the other.

I've been keeping the TiVos around because I enjoy the MRV and Media features -- paticularly music streaming -- but that has had inconsistent performance for the last few months due to the recent service update(s). I'm also growing less accepting of the SD quality on my HD TVs.

So while I've been considering a HD TiVo -- something that will cost over $500 even if I transfer the lifetime -- I've been doing some research into building a HTPC.

I've spec'd out a pretty decent DIY system on Newegg.com and it will cost roughly $480.00 for everything. I have a few extra licenses for Vista Ultimate so I will get the Media Center functionality for free. Obviously I get more than just the DVR (gaming, email, internet, etc.) and I will maintain file sharing between PCs.

I'm on the fence because TiVo has been such a way of life for us here. Has anyone else considered this? What direction did you go?

dswallow · 11-17-2007, 11:43 PM

You're not going to get access to any HD material except what you receive over the air. No CableCARD for your home theater PC. No encrypted digital cable channels at all, even SD.

And frankly the usability of all the various Windows and Linux options you might install on your hardware are just nowhere near as polished or reliable as what the TiVo receivers provide. And they're definitely not all that user-friendly to install and maintain.

ACraigL · 11-18-2007, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dswallow

You're not going to get access to any HD material except what you receive over the air. No CableCARD for your home theater PC. No encrypted digital cable channels at all, even SD.

And frankly the usability of all the various Windows and Linux options you might install on your hardware are just nowhere near as polished or reliable as what the TiVo receivers provide. And they're definitely not all that user-friendly to install and maintain.

dswallow, thanks for the input. But that's not exactly true. My intention -- which I should have mentioned -- is to use IR blasters to control the Comcast HD box in the same way my S2 TiVos do now. That way I get all channels, as I do now, including the HD and onDemand capability when I want it.

As for Windows itself, I'm not sure if you've seen the Vista Media Center, but its awfully slick, very polished and very easy to use. I agree it may be harder to maintain overall, but a windows-only box (no 3rd-party apps) is usually pretty stable. Also, I'm clearly not worried about a technical challenge since I'm building a computer here.

SullyND · 11-18-2007, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACraigL

I should have mentioned -- is to use IR blasters to control the Comcast HD box in the same way my S2 TiVos do now.

And how exactly are you thinking you'll get HD video into your computer?

ACraigL · 11-18-2007, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SullyND

And how exactly are you thinking you'll get HD video into your computer?

Eeek! Yeah, I took a leap of faith on that one. I forgot that you can't encode the HD output from the box. I suppose there is a possibility to record from Firewire, but that limits the tuner functionality a bit.

I have a Hauppuge HVR-1600 to record HD on my main PC now, but yes, that's QAM signal. Since it came with IR blasters I had it in my head that it could control the cable box -- and that's true, but I forgot about recording the HD output

Thanks for setting me straight -- now I'm depressed! I guess Im back to waiting for TiVo on the Comcast boxes.

JJ · 11-18-2007, 09:21 AM

Vista Media Center
is polished enough to replace TiVo and has no monthly fee associated with it. There are systems that built with slots for cableards, but are not (yet) a DIY propsition. If you are looking for a solution consider the Gigabyte system board as a HTPC basis. I liked it enough that I built myself four more. There are a few ATSC playback challenges with the ATI x1250 chipset you need to be aware of. See the Home Theater PC area at AVSForum for a lot of details...

greg_burns · 11-18-2007, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACraigL

So while I've been considering a HD TiVo -- something that will cost over $500 even if I transfer the lifetime --

I don't understand.

You can buy a TivoHD for ~$255 from Amazon and go to tivo's web site and move service from one of your S2s (the non lifetime one) to it. You will continue to pay the $6.95.

www.tivo.com->Manage My Account->Change Service Number

ACraigL · 11-18-2007, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJ

Vista Media Center
is polished enough to replace TiVo and has no monthly fee associated with it. There are systems that built with slots for cableards, but are not (yet) a DIY propsition. If you are looking for a solution consider the Gigabyte system board as a HTPC basis. I liked it enough that I built myself four more. There are a few ATSC playback challenges with the ATI x1250 chipset you need to be aware of. See the Home Theater PC area at AVSForum for a lot of details...

That's exactly the MB I had selected:
GIGABYTE GA-MA69GM-S2H

Thanks for the AVSForum link.. I'll be sure to check that out.

ACraigL · 11-18-2007, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greg_burns

I don't understand.

You can buy a TivoHD for ~$255 from Amazon and go to tivo's web site and move service from one of your S2s (the non lifetime one) to it. You will continue to pay the $6.95.

www.tivo.com->Manage My Account->Change Service Number

greg_burns, I had not even considered that as a possibility! I was so focused on the the lifetimed tivo that I was unaware that I could continue the MSD. That's defintitely an option I will explore.

Does the TiVoHD require the cablecard(s) to record? I'm assuming that I can't use the cablebox/IR blaster combo like I (wrongly) suggested for the HTPC comment above.

I'm still struggling with the fact that I will need the cablebox and the TiVoHD w/Cablecards. For an extra $200 I can get QAM HD and all the added Media Center/PC functionality.

Clearly I'm torn. I've had TiVo since 2003 and really love it. We're a TiVo household. I just don't know what makes the most sense at the moment -- maybe I should simply wait.

greg_burns · 11-18-2007, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACraigL

Does the TiVoHD require the cablecard(s) to record? I'm assuming that I can't use the cablebox/IR blaster combo like I (wrongly) suggested for the HTPC comment above.

No, you cannot use cablebox/IR with TivoHD/S3.

But, yes, w/o cablecards you can still record OTA signals (both digital and analog). You can also record analog cable.

There is also the ability to manually record (w/o channel info) the unecnrypted QAM channels your receive via cable as well. (Rehashed in many other threads)

I have limited basic cable (w/ cablecards which I pay nothing for) that gives me all my locals in HD, plus some others like A&E, TBS, Food, H&G, etc. I can receive about half of the locals OTA, but needed cable for the others.

astrohip · 11-18-2007, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJ

Vista Media Center
is polished enough to replace TiVo <snip>

This is my laugh for the day. My TiVo is a workhorse, working 24/7 with so few glitches I can count them on one hand in five years.

Windows . . .? I use it every day, and would no more trust my valuable TV recording chores to it than I would my life. Glitches? With regularity.

jebbbz · 11-18-2007, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by astrohip

This is my laugh for the day. My TiVo is a workhorse, working 24/7 with so few glitches I can count them on one hand in five years.

Windows . . .? I use it every day, and would no more trust my valuable TV recording chores to it than I would my life. Glitches? With regularity.

It depends on one's tolerance for glitches. There were no TiVos capable of HD back in early 2006 so I went with a modest HTPC running XP and BeyondTV (Cox in Phoenix still doesn't have enough exclusive HD content for me to worry about anything beyond OTA HD though it's getting close). The PC is not as reliable as my S2 but since it is dedicated to TV I have few problems with it. It took a while to get things right (video drivers, in particular) but I am now happy with it. Once in a while (weekly to monthly) I may have to restart BTV's GUI but the recording engine has been highly reliable.

Perhaps digital cable and tuners with CableCards would be another matter on a Vista machine but I think you are a bit hasty to dismiss dedicated PCs. Its the cost of PC hardware and software approved for CableCard that deters me.

(Even these glitches might disappear but for my using this machine to edit and transcode my recordings, too, which is not possible with TiVo. Cutting out commercials and transcoding to high quality DivX lets me store a "one hour" HD show in a one gigabyte file that I can archive easily. I like the flexibility of a PC.)

bonnie_raitt · 11-18-2007, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jebbbz

(Even these glitches might disappear but for my using this machine to edit and transcode my recordings, too, which is not possible with TiVo. Cutting out commercials and transcoding to high quality DivX lets me store a "one hour" HD show in a one gigabyte file that I can archive easily. I like the flexibility of a PC.)

I'd like to preface my comments with the fact that I'm a Windows fan, stockholder, and professional. $250 for a TiVo HD is a much better option. It's reliable, flexible, and not as prone to problems as a PC.

With TTG activated now you can copy show to your PC, edit out commercials, and transcode to high quality DivX or burn to a std DVD.

I do use WMC from time to time from one of my Vista machines when the occasion arises using my XBOX 360.

However, for set it and forget it TV recording, I think the HDTiVo is the way to go.

ACraigL · 11-18-2007, 06:31 PM

I agree a dedicated PC is more stable. Part of my concern is that with one TiVoHD and one S2 I only have one-way transfers (MRV). If I get the HTPC and a media reciever I have more options. 2 HD TiVos seems cost-prohibitive, in my opinion.

JJ · 11-18-2007, 07:08 PM

Someday
I may consider a TiVoHD once the SDV resolver / QAM program info issues are worked out. Since much of our viewing is OTA and not Comcast, my local Evil Cable Company (ECC) the difference is minimal between Vista Media Center and TiVoHD. Deriding someones choice simply because it is not TiVo seems popular but shows that some folks may have not fairly evaluated the competition. Spreading FUD regarding Windows based on someone elses biased reports is unfair. I spent the time to reasonably examine my options and chose to replace eight DirecTiVos with five VMC's and two Dish VIP622's. This may not be the choice for everyone but it was the right choice for me.

My Series1 lifetime grandfathered may someday be replaced by TiVoHD but not until TiVo crawls out of bed with the ECC's forcing customers to use cable cards while the unencrypted QAM signal is available and the program data for OTA (essentially the same data) is alreasy available to the box.

A major ability that Window has and TiVo does not is the ability to manually associate program data to the broadcast station. While I don't use the ECC downrezzed signal this works very well with my own distribution channels so associating Fox5 to ECC 5.806 (until they change it again in the never ending game of hide and seek) is a rea onably simple matter.

TiVo was like dating the prom queen back in 1999 but she is now eight years older, and her charms are fading. Who (fanboys excluded) hasn't looked at the fresher models and thought about trading up...

qz3fwd · 11-18-2007, 07:10 PM

Having both HTPC and now 2 Tivo S3's, I can say that the media center is not ready for prime time consumer use, heck I dont even think they are shipping working cablecard pc's yet. Nevertheless, I started out in PC land and just within the last month did I take the Tivo plunge now that the S3's can be had for a reasonable sum. Goodbye HTPC.

ZeoTiVo · 11-18-2007, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJ

Who (fanboys excluded) hasn't looked at the fresher models and thought about trading up...

that would be the people who actually do use cable for digital and HD and need a cable card solution. To sit in some OTA HTPC land and say all else is old and obsolete seems a lot more fanboy to me than the simple realization that HTPC does not fit everyone's needs just like TiVo does not fit everyone's needs.

TiVo Steve · 11-18-2007, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACraigL

Eeek! Yeah, I took a leap of faith on that one. I forgot that you can't encode the HD output from the box. I suppose there is a possibility to record from Firewire, but that limits the tuner functionality a bit.

I have a Hauppuge HVR-1600 to record HD on my main PC now, but yes, that's QAM signal. Since it came with IR blasters I had it in my head that it could control the cable box -- and that's true, but I forgot about recording the HD output

Thanks for setting me straight -- now I'm depressed! I guess Im back to waiting for TiVo on the Comcast boxes.

You can "capture" a "TS" file (transport stream" through the firewire port on Motorola cable boxes. Use the D-VHS driver in Windows. Go to the AVS forum for more info.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=403695

Good luck.

Xab · 11-18-2007, 09:56 PM

I was actually just in this same boat, I had a RS-TX20 until early 2006, then built a HTPC since TiVo was unable to handle HD video and I felt its interface was sluggish. My HTPC worked well, and the Vista media center was pretty and fast, but it would often have problems like jerky video or just slowness. It was also pretty noisy.

I picked up a TiVo HD to see how things have progressed in the TiVo world and I'm still up in the air as to whether I'm keeping the HD. The interface is still very sluggish compared to a Media Center PC, but the TiVo handles HD video orders of magnitude better (as far as my experience has been, HD Tuner cards for PC's are next to nonfunctional), and it also has support for CableCards which I plan to take advantage of in the future. I also don't care for the fact that it takes a long time for TiVo to change channels, and I am often greeted with the grey screen and a "Waiting for data from Cable input" message before TV starts.

ah30k · 11-18-2007, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TiVo Steve

You can "capture" a "TS" file (transport stream" through the firewire port on Motorola cable boxes.

Encrypted premium content?

dbtom · 11-19-2007, 09:53 AM

I'd been looking forward to using CableCard tuners on a Vista PC for a long time. The dream is one central media server spitting out content to multiple TVs.

The reality is that this dream is still far off (at least for me). I happened to be pricing out these systems this morning. You can't build anything comparable to a TivoHD for under $2500.

I use Vista Media Center for over the air content. If you have no need for CableCard, this is a great solution. For the majority, who will want access to HD premiums via CableCard or some future solution, it's not price competitive to use anything other than Tivo or a cable company box. An additional consideration is power consumption. TivoHD or S3 or cable box will be much more efficient here.

Still I hold out hope that in 2 - 3 years, Vista will be a viable solution for CableCard use.

astrohip · 11-19-2007, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xab

I also don't care for the fact that it takes a long time for TiVo to change channels, and I am often greeted with the grey screen and a "Waiting for data from Cable input" message before TV starts.

I wonder if there is something in your setup causing this. My channel switch time is less than a second. And I have never had a gray screen or "Waiting" message. I use OTA and cablecards, and regularly switch between OTA<>cable. This includes premium content (HBO, etc), std cable, OTA, HD, SD, yada yada. Never a pause or gray screen. I also have one S3 on HDMI, and the other on component cable. Both have the same response.

Mach1_8 · 11-20-2007, 05:03 PM

If you're interested in the HTPC route, you should take a look at HD Homerun. It works well with Vista to record QAM programming. Another option that is commonly overlooked is using the Xbox 360 as an extender. If you already have a PC running Vista, you can hook an Xbox up to the network and it will emulate the VMC interface. I had great success with this setup earlier this year. I was able to watch HDTV and use the DVRMS toolbox functions (i.e. comm skip) with no problem at all. I now have a S3 TiVo and use the MCX for music/pictures mostly.

ZeoTiVo · 11-20-2007, 06:08 PM

There was a very small blurb in December GameInformer about Netflix working with Xbox or PS3 on delivering HD movies. No mention of TiVo in the blurb, but it is a gaming mag.

ACraigL · 11-20-2007, 06:59 PM

Mach1_8,

Thanks for the suggestion. I have a Hauppauge HRV-1600 in my home PC now and it's great for OTA or QAM HD. I was thinking about an HRV-1800 since the DYI setup I've spec'd supports PCIe. The networked tuner idea is interesting, but as an HTPC, I definitely want everything internal to the system.

I have considered media center extenders, particularly the upcoming one from Pinnacle:
Pinnacle ShowCenter 250HD.

I love the idea, but I lose the tuner functionality. I'm also hesitant to get another gaming system, espcially when I don't want it for gaming. That's like buying a refrigerator just to hang your kids' artwork.

Mach1_8 · 11-20-2007, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACraigL

Mach1_8,

Thanks for the suggestion. I have a Hauppauge HRV-1600 in my home PC now and it's great for OTA or QAM HD. I was thinking about an HRV-1800 since the DYI setup I've spec'd supports PCIe. The networked tuner idea is interesting, but as an HTPC, I definitely want everything internal to the system.

I have considered media center extenders, particularly the upcoming one from Pinnacle:
Pinnacle ShowCenter 250HD.

I love the idea, but I lose the tuner functionality. I'm also hesitant to get another gaming system, espcially when I don't want it for gaming. That's like buying a refrigerator just to hang your kids' artwork.

Yep...certainly a lot of options there. It's actually one of the reasons I went with TiVo in the end...just seemed like too much to process. I'm interested to see what your solution will be though. I'm a huge fan of HTPC's. Someday I'll have one again, but for now not so much. That being said, don't give up on the extender idea. I loved using my office computer to serve up Media Center to my living room over our network. Kinda geeky, but very cool. Good luck!

JJ · 11-21-2007, 02:26 PM

Personally
I have much love for the ten AverMedia A180 PCI cards I'm using. If I was going QAM the HD HomeRun product would be completely irrestable. It would seem to be the best solution based on multiple user reports, although I have not yet used it myself. If I were changing to QAM (or starting over fresh) tomorrow, the choice would be clear for me...

ACraigL · 11-21-2007, 02:30 PM

Just saw this... not a perfect comparison, but good observations:

Cablecard Vista Media Center PC vs.Tivo Series 3:
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/battlemod...s-3-262359.php

JJ · 11-21-2007, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACraigL

Just saw this... not a perfect comparison, but good observations:

Cablecard Vista Media Center PC vs.Tivo Series 3:
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/battlemod...s-3-262359.php

Makes me
happy to be classified "PC for ultimate media geeks", I can live with that...

dilorc · 11-21-2007, 07:37 PM

I was a long time Tivo user. I bought a Series 1 back in 2000. We've been Tivoless for over a year. I now have a central media server and use Mythtv throughout the house (2 TVs).

It works well. There were some definite growing pains. It took a while until I was totally comfortable removing the Tivos. Installing Mythtv is not as hard as it used to be. There are custom linux distributions that make things much easier.

For recording HD, I use a HD Homerun. I think it is the best choice for recording HD. I was using PCI cards prior to that, but it was a lot of trouble to get the drivers to work. The HD Homerun is so much easier. I can record 2 HD shows and watch a 3rd with no problems. For SD recording, I use a Plextor M402U. It's a USB box that captures video and stores it as MPEG-4.

Overall I'm happy. The wife even likes it. I do wish there was a way to record encrypted HD channels. All I get now is the locals (via QAM).