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Old 11-26-2007, 07:21 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by richsadams View Post
Oh, I didn't realize that you hadn't tried KS57 and/or KS58. I'd certainly start there first. That may be all you need to do.

Good luck!
But don't 57 and/or 58 put the recordings in jeopardy? My entire quest here is saving those recordings.
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Old 11-26-2007, 08:04 PM   #92
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You can use any drive as long as it is at least the same size or larger.
I guess that applies even if just the used space on the drive to be copied is smaller than the drive being copied to. The good drive removed from the Tivo is an 80GB WD and the bad drive is a 120GB Maxtor.

I have already permanenty deleted all recordings from the recently deleted folder and can do the same with season passes and any other no longer needed items to reduce GB's to be copied.

Your description of what occurs when you copy a 40GB to a 500GB indicates that even an 80GB containing only 1KB of data would not copy to a 79GB drive.

I have a 200GB USB drive and this is coming from left field. What if I used Imgburn to copy the bad 120GB HD to the USB drive and then from there Imgburn it to the good 80GB drive and see if that one can upgrade from 8.3 to 9.1 I am assuming that Imgburn will just create a mirror image even though it is in a format unknown to Imgburn.

It doesn't even sound possible.
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Old 11-26-2007, 08:17 PM   #93
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It doesn't even sound possible.
That's because its not.

You can't bit-for-bit copy a drive to a smaller one. Just impossible to do. Doesn't matter how much you are "using" on the drive.

ImgBurn is used to make a CD (or DVD) from an .iso file image. Nothing more, nothing less.

Even software (like Ghost or Acronis) can't make copies of Tivo disks. The format is foreign to them. You may be able to do bit copies with that type of software, but that is what the linux "dd" command is doing for you for free. Use it.

I thought you was going to sacrifice one of your new 500GB drives long enough to get your shows off the old bad drive. Then when done, Instant Cake it again. You could use WinMFS to backup your settings on the 500GB prior-to, if you felt it necessary. You can make a backup and store it on your PC. Really not very complicated.

Last edited by greg_burns : 11-26-2007 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 11-26-2007, 08:27 PM   #94
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That's because its not.

You can't bit-for-bit copy a drive to a smaller one. Just impossible to do. Doesn't matter how much you are "using" on the drive.

ImgBurn is used to make a CD (or DVD) from an .iso file image. Nothing more, nothing less.
I guess my choices are dwindling and now are down to this:

1 - Get a HD 120GB or more to use.

2 - KS 57 and/or KS 58 and risk losing the recordings

3 - Just keep the drive as is and pop it into the Toshiba box when I want to watch the recordings on it.
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Old 11-26-2007, 08:33 PM   #95
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But don't 57 and/or 58 put the recordings in jeopardy? My entire quest here is saving those recordings.
Not to worry. Generally problems exist in a very small area. The diagnostic programs (KS57 and/or KS58) will attempt to repair or isolate the area so it can no longer be written to. After that things should return to normal. Losing a program is fairly rare let alone more than one.

It sounds as if the issue is with the partition that handles the OS software. KS57 and/or KS58 will be instrumental in cleaning things up if that's where the problem lies; that's what they're designed to do.
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Old 11-27-2007, 01:58 AM   #96
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Not to worry. Generally problems exist in a very small area. The diagnostic programs (KS57 and/or KS58) will attempt to repair or isolate the area so it can no longer be written to. After that things should return to normal. Losing a program is fairly rare let alone more than one.

It sounds as if the issue is with the partition that handles the OS software. KS57 and/or KS58 will be instrumental in cleaning things up if that's where the problem lies; that's what they're designed to do.
OK, I ran KS 57 and it went to a green screen telling me it would take three hours to complete. I looked back in about 10 minutes and I was in Tivo Central. I did a connect and when the dowload completed, nothing had changed. I tried connecting a few more times and each time it showed the previous connect was successful and each time it told me it was installing new software. I don't see the pending restart message.

I have now tried 3 or 4 times to run KS 58 but it never runs. When Tivo is starting, the two lghts are yellow from the start, not red. I hit pause and the 5 8 and I have no idea if anything is happening at all.

When you say to do this from the "initial" screen, I'm not sure what that means, so I just watch the two lights waiting to see a red light I can change to yellow with the pause button, but I don't see a red light until just before I get the animation that takes me to Tivo Central.
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Old 11-27-2007, 11:46 AM   #97
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OK, I ran KS 57 and it went to a green screen telling me it would take three hours to complete. I looked back in about 10 minutes and I was in Tivo Central. I did a connect and when the dowload completed, nothing had changed. I tried connecting a few more times and each time it showed the previous connect was successful and each time it told me it was installing new software. I don't see the pending restart message.

I have now tried 3 or 4 times to run KS 58 but it never runs. When Tivo is starting, the two lghts are yellow from the start, not red. I hit pause and the 5 8 and I have no idea if anything is happening at all.

When you say to do this from the "initial" screen, I'm not sure what that means, so I just watch the two lights waiting to see a red light I can change to yellow with the pause button, but I don't see a red light until just before I get the animation that takes me to Tivo Central.
Hmmm. That it only took a few minutes to come back from the GSOD can be a good or bad sign. It can mean that the errors are minor and that TiVo fixed them quickly. It can also mean that TiVo was unable to resolve any errors. BTW, the "initial screen" is the "Welcome! Powering up..." screen, the very first one that appears. KS58 is fairly transparent. The only thing you would see is TiVo rebooting after it has made any repairs and completed the diagnostics.

The worrisome part of your message is that the two lights are yellow from the start. That's not good and that's likely why KS58 isn't running. Once it gets to TiVo Central are the lights still yellow?

If you're not seeing the Pending restart message in the Network Connections or System Information menus it's either not downloading an upgrade or the upgrade has already downloaded.

When you say "...each time it told me it was installing new software." what do you mean exactly? Do you mean the "Service update screen" appears after rebooting? If so it also sounds like you're saying that you don't see the "Preparing Service Update" screen correct?

Sorry for all of the questions, but I'm trying to narrow down exactly what's happening. Again, if the two lights are steady yellow that leads me to believe that there's more to this than just a few errors on your hard drive.

In any case, let me know a little more and we'll see what we can do! When you have a chance, do a hard reboot (unplug TiVo and plug it back in) and then write down the succession of screens that you're seeing as well as what the lights are doing during each screen (don't do any remote commands, etc). That may sort a few things out.
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Old 11-27-2007, 01:18 PM   #98
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Hard drive or power supply going bad - TCD140060?

I have a Series Two - model number listed above which is constantly restarting.

The unit has the original Western Digital drive (40 or 60g), and a Maxtor 160g drive from DVRUpgrade. Unit worked fine until late summer where the problems started.

I re-imaged both drives with Instant Cake twice, and it would work for all of one day and the restarting would start again usually right at the start of the tv show.

I then imaged each drive independantly i.e. single drive use only and the same thing would happen first with Maxtor and then with the Western Digital. Okay, what are the chances both drives go out right???

Yanked out another 40g Maxtor drive from spare computer imaged that one, and now can't get past adding the channel selection from startup without it restarting again.

I am at a loss as to is it the drives or a bad power supply (apparently known issue with this particular model). C'mon (3) drives go bad???

I would toss the unit and get myself a new HD series Tivo, but this one has a lifetime service and I simply can't afford several hundred dollars on a new unit.
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Old 11-27-2007, 01:51 PM   #99
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I have a Series Two - model number listed above which is constantly restarting.

The unit has the original Western Digital drive (40 or 60g), and a Maxtor 160g drive from DVRUpgrade. Unit worked fine until late summer where the problems started.

I re-imaged both drives with Instant Cake twice, and it would work for all of one day and the restarting would start again usually right at the start of the tv show.

I then imaged each drive independantly i.e. single drive use only and the same thing would happen first with Maxtor and then with the Western Digital. Okay, what are the chances both drives go out right???

Yanked out another 40g Maxtor drive from spare computer imaged that one, and now can't get past adding the channel selection from startup without it restarting again.

I am at a loss as to is it the drives or a bad power supply (apparently known issue with this particular model). C'mon (3) drives go bad???

I would toss the unit and get myself a new HD series Tivo, but this one has a lifetime service and I simply can't afford several hundred dollars on a new unit.
That does sound like something more than a drive...as you mentioned, possibly a power supply. The draw for two drives may have shortened the PS life a bit. Might be something else as well.

I remember someone having to replace the drive's ribbon cable at one time.

Curious, do you have a broadband connection? An earlier post indicated that their adapter had gone bad and as soon as they removed it all was right again. I think they replaced it w/TiVo wireless adapter (less than $37 at Amazon right now BTW).

IIRC there was another post that indicated that something was up with their cableco and when they removed the coax everything was fine.

It could be something on the MB or a loose connection of some sort. Have you made sure everything inside and out is connected securely? (Beware of the PS though...it can give you a big shock if you're not careful.)

Just some thoughts. Good luck and let us know how it goes.
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Old 11-27-2007, 02:11 PM   #100
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I then imaged each drive independantly i.e. single drive use only and the same thing would happen first with Maxtor and then with the Western Digital. Okay, what are the chances both drives go out right???
Not a bad approach, but actually, you might be surprised. Statistically, the chances of both your drives failing are the same. IE. If there is a 1 in 100 chance of one drive failing. Then your chances of both drives failing are still 1 in 100. (ie. the chances are independent of one another, just like rolling the dice)

With that said, we've seen quite a few units that have had both drives fail -- whether one failure is related to the other, it is difficult to say, but I would say that its definitely a possibility that one drive failing could cause another to fail. And that is more of a possibility than the initial surge of starting up two drives actually damaging a power supply.

What I would suggest is the same thing I suggest in most other situations. Thoroughly test EACH drive with the manufacturer's diagnostics. They are free, and it really is the only way to eliminate the drive problem as being the source of the problem. If you have time, run 'quick' , 'advanced' AND 'low-level format' the drive.

Its rare, but I've seen drives pass quick and advanced, and then fail the low level. Most of the time, though - a bad drive will fail either quick or advanced.

Hope that helps.

Lou
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Old 11-27-2007, 04:26 PM   #101
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Not a bad approach, but actually, you might be surprised. Statistically, the chances of both your drives failing are the same. IE. If there is a 1 in 100 chance of one drive failing. Then your chances of both drives failing are still 1 in 100. (ie. the chances are independent of one another, just like rolling the dice)
Yes, but no. If the chance of each drive failing is 1 in 100, their chance of failure is the same, but the chance of both failing would be 1 in 10000 (1/100 * 1/100) (assuming their failures are independent of each other, i.e. they weren't ruined by some other effect (power surges, murphy's law, etc.) which coincidentally affected them both at the same time.


rather than image the drives and see how long they run, why not put them in a pc and run a test that gives more definitive results (mfr. diagnostic, spinrite, etc). If the drives are going bad, just about any utility that can read the hdd SMART info will tell you more than just imaging and trying again.
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Old 11-27-2007, 04:26 PM   #102
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"Welcome! Powering up..."

Right now, the Twilight Zone theme should be playing. I was about to start a reboot to watch and answer your questions and decided to read your note again and at the exact instant that I clicked on the link above, the unit did its own reboot to show Screen: Welcome! Powering up...

Both lights were yellow and as I watched, after a minute or so, there was one red light on the right. I hit pause and got two yellows so I hit 5 8 and within seconds I got the Screen: Installing a Service Update This will take a few minutes with no lights

A minute or so later the Screen: Welcome! Powering up... returned with two yellows which in a minute or so became one red on right. I let it run and soon saw the Screen: Installing a Service Update This will take a few minutes with no lights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by richsadams
The worrisome part of your message is that the two lights are yellow from the start. That's not good and that's likely why KS58 isn't running. Once it gets to TiVo Central are the lights still yellow?
In Tivo Central there are no lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by richsadams
When you say "...each time it told me it was installing new software." what do you mean exactly? Do you mean the "Service update screen" appears after rebooting? If so it also sounds like you're saying that you don't see the "Preparing Service Update" screen correct?
I see the Screen: Installing a Service Update This will take a few minutes. I am not certain, but I believe the last time I saw the Screen: Preparing the Service Update This may take up to an hour, possibly longer ---was when I first installed one of the working drives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by richsadams
When you have a chance, do a hard reboot (unplug TiVo and plug it back in) and then write down the succession of screens that you're seeing as well as what the lights are doing during each screen (don't do any remote commands, etc). That may sort a few things out.
I unplugged and waited a minute or so and plugged it in again. All changes happened in a minute or less unless specified.

I got Screen: Welcome! Powering up... with two yellows that actually were a pale yellow on the left and an orangish yellow on the right.

After about 2 minutes I got just a red on the right, then a yellow on the left, then no lights and then Screen: Almost there Just a few minutes more also with no lights.

Next came Screen: Installing a Service Update This will take a few minutes again with no lights then 3 or 4 mintes later a blank screen. Normally, here is where the Tivo animated thing starts, but I waited 10 minutes while typing this and nothing changed until I hit the Tivo button.

In Tivo central, all was the same. I do know that when I looked at the Connect to the Tivo service now screen it used to alternate. After a connection, I would see the pending restart message and after restarting again, would see last connection succeeded and those two messages would alternate after each restart. Now it always shows as Succeeded.

I will put my next genius idea in the next note.
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Old 11-27-2007, 04:43 PM   #103
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Remember I am playing with a Linux OS with a mind that is hard wired for windows. Here is my next great idea.

I have the 80GB drive I removed from one box that is pretty much expendable. If I recaked that drive for the Toshiba with dual HD's and made that drive the master and the problem drive the slave, would I be able to do a restart and have the 9.1 software installed on that 80GB drive?

I don't know how dual HD are connected, but it seems that one HD would have to be...I'm thinking...outside the box.

If that works, I am again...sheesh...assuming that to connect the two HD's I would use a ribbon cable with a slave connector and a power splitter. If I am right, would I then be able to copy the recordings from the now slave drive to the master.

If that can't be done, my Tivo II S2 should now recognize the master and be able to MRV recordings from the slave drive in the Toshiba box to the Tivo box???

Right now I am more confused than Vinnie Barbarino ever was.
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Old 11-27-2007, 05:17 PM   #104
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Ha! Perhaps we should call Mr. Kotter!

As far as the sequence you're gettting at start-up it all looks okay. The weak yellow, bright yellow lighting sounds normal and beyond that it's doing what it should. I can't recall, but I don't think the animated TiVo bit will run after KS58.

The sticking point is that it's obviously trying to install the software, but isn't able to for whatever reason. Something is wrong there, but I've really no idea what it is other than that part of the disk is corrupted somehow.

I don't think you can switch your "A" and "B" drives without re-writing everything. As with a PC, TiVo looks at the "A" drive on start-up and if everything it's looking for isn't there, no go.

I'll see if Greg can answer your questions about re-imiging the drive(s). I've never used instant cake...always used the Linux boot disk and that was ages ago.

My gut feeling is that you're going to need to pull the drive(s) and do a deep diagnostic (read/write/read) to find out if there's an issue. It may be that you'll need to get a fresh image and start anew as well.

I think I've run out of ideas at this point but I'll keep checking in. Hopefully Greg will chime.

Hang in there!
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Old 11-27-2007, 06:27 PM   #105
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I think I've run out of ideas at this point but I'll keep checking in. Hopefully Greg will chime.
I've been here all day watching but nothing more to say.

No you can not add a second drive and not reimage both and not loose everything.

I still suggest running the Western Digital diagnostic on the drive. You don't have to loose data to do that. If the drive is at all salvageable, it will mark the bad sectors as bad so the tivo will stop using them.

Ideally, you would just use one of those 500GB you bought and dd_rescue this bad drive to it. MRV everything off, then IC that 500GB a second time.
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Old 11-27-2007, 06:43 PM   #106
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Interesting solutions. I am beginning to think bad power supply and will probably replace it soon.

I can understand two drives failing, but a third unrelated drive failing seems odd unless Murphy's law says that third drive is bad too.

I've changed ribbon cables as well and went from the y-power cable back to the original power cable to power the single hard drives - no dice.
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Old 11-27-2007, 06:56 PM   #107
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I can understand two drives failing, but a third unrelated drive failing seems odd unless Murphy's law says that third drive is bad too.
Silly question, but are sure you have the proper version of IC for your Tivo?

Lou (aka tivouprade) surely would know what the symptoms of using the wrong image would be. Seems doubtful it would have even booted.
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Old 11-27-2007, 07:55 PM   #108
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As far as the sequence you're gettting at start-up it all looks okay. The weak yellow, bright yellow lighting sounds normal and beyond that it's doing what it should. I can't recall, but I don't think the animated TiVo bit will run after KS58.
I had to switch the HD's to record shows on the new drive and when booting up, I saw that the good drive followed the same sequence of screens and lights as the problem drive. Next time I switch them and during the Screen: Welcome! Powering up... I am going to wait for the double yellows to turn red and then hit pause and 5 8 and see if it runs that way.

I will also try the WD diagnostic.
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Old 11-27-2007, 08:30 PM   #109
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I still suggest running the Western Digital diagnostic on the drive. You don't have to loose data to do that. If the drive is at all salvageable, it will mark the bad sectors as bad so the tivo will stop using them.

Ideally, you would just use one of those 500GB you bought and dd_rescue this bad drive to it. MRV everything off, then IC that 500GB a second time.
Since the drive is out of the unit right now, I will try the diagnostic route. I found a Maxtor/Seagate diagnostic that seems to do what the WD link you sent does.

http://www.seagate.com/www/en-us/sup...ls/seatooldreg

If you can take a look, is this an equivalent to the WD tool? It says it will work with any OS on the drive.
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Old 11-27-2007, 08:46 PM   #110
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If you can take a look, is this an equivalent to the WD tool? It says it will work with any OS on the drive.
I have a Seagate drive in my PC. I downloaded the .iso and burned to a disc using imgburn.

But didn't have any luck with this. It will boot to the CD and starts up and sees my seagate drive in the DOS GUI. But as soon as I touch the keyboard it dumps to a black DOS command prompt.

Perhaps it just doesn't like my PC.

The tools don't care what OS is on the drives. It is checking the disk itself, not its content.

I am going to try the WD one right now and see if it works with my Seagate drive better than the Seagate one does.
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Old 11-27-2007, 08:56 PM   #111
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I am going to try the WD one right now and see if it works with my Seagate drive better than the Seagate one does.
Bad news. The WD throws an error immediately and says NON WD DRIVES DETECTED or some such.
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Old 11-27-2007, 10:39 PM   #112
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Got to thinking. You don't have a Seagate drive in your Tivo, do you? Probably a Maxtor.

If you can make a floppy. Use Maxtor's PowerMax.

http://www.majorgeeks.com/Maxtor_Powermax_d1386.html
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Old 11-28-2007, 01:04 AM   #113
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Got to thinking. You don't have a Seagate drive in your Tivo, do you? Probably a Maxtor.

If you can make a floppy. Use Maxtor's PowerMax.

http://www.majorgeeks.com/Maxtor_Powermax_d1386.html
I started to reply that I can't use that tool because my HD is only 120GB and the tool is only good for drives that are equal to or larger than 500... Oh, MB.

It seems like only yesterday when I was still using my once very large 350MB HD when I ran into a friend who told me of his newest HD. It was a whole GB and I was in awe. It had to cost him at least $350.

I have copied the Maxtor tool to a floppy and will run the diagnostic tomorrow. Thanks again Greg.
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Old 11-28-2007, 06:15 AM   #114
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I have copied the Maxtor tool to a floppy and will run the diagnostic tomorrow. Thanks again Greg.
Actually, just so you know, you don't copy it to a floppy. You run it in Windows and it creates a floppy for you.

I use that floppy at work occasionally to test suspect drives. I'll try to boot it up today so I am familiar again with the options.

Here is a link to an CD .iso download of powermax if you prefer.
http://digilander.libero.it/YorkOne/powermax/

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Old 11-28-2007, 11:45 AM   #115
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I started to reply that I can't use that tool because my HD is only 120GB and the tool is only good for drives that are equal to or larger than 500... Oh, MB.

It seems like only yesterday when I was still using my once very large 350MB HD when I ran into a friend who told me of his newest HD. It was a whole GB and I was in awe. It had to cost him at least $350.

I have copied the Maxtor tool to a floppy and will run the diagnostic tomorrow. Thanks again Greg.
I remember using Powermax years ago and it seemed to work fine, but I don't know how detailed the diagnostics are on it...seemed like it only ran basic surface scans.

Glad things are progressing.

BTW, I vividly remember breaking out into a sweat when I bought a 250MB HDD for $275 once...biggest one on the market at the time. Sigh.
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Old 11-28-2007, 01:21 PM   #116
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Silly question, but are sure you have the proper version of IC for your Tivo?

Lou (aka tivouprade) surely would know what the symptoms of using the wrong image would be. Seems doubtful it would have even booted.
Yup, I checked and double checked. I will triple when I get home again though

Actually, I just checked the service number and there is only one 1400 i.e 2g of Series 2.

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Old 11-28-2007, 02:04 PM   #117
greg_burns
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Originally Posted by richsadams View Post
I remember using Powermax years ago and it seemed to work fine, but I don't know how detailed the diagnostics are on it...seemed like it only ran basic surface scans.
Running Powermax right now on a 40GB Maxtor have lying around.

There is a Basic scan and an Advanced scan. Don't think either repair anything like I've seen the WD one do. (I don't have bad drive to test against.)

But it should settle once and for all if there really is a problem with your drive or not I would think.
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Old 11-28-2007, 05:20 PM   #118
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(I don't have bad drive to test against.)
I've hear a good hammer can remedy that.
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Old 11-28-2007, 06:31 PM   #119
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Yes, but no. If the chance of each drive failing is 1 in 100, their chance of failure is the same, but the chance of both failing would be 1 in 10000 (1/100 * 1/100) (assuming their failures are independent of each other, i.e. they weren't ruined by some other effect (power surges, murphy's law, etc.) which coincidentally affected them both at the same time.


rather than image the drives and see how long they run, why not put them in a pc and run a test that gives more definitive results (mfr. diagnostic, spinrite, etc). If the drives are going bad, just about any utility that can read the hdd SMART info will tell you more than just imaging and trying again.
I stand corrected (and I had to read up to reacquaint on statistical indendence). The chances of each drive failing are the same; but significantly lower of both of them failing.

With that said, my original recommendation was still to thoroughly test each drive - that is always the best approach. I know I sound like a broken record around here because I say it in every post I respond to, but for some reason there is a good deal of resistance to it.

After reading through the rest of the thread, I can see why, though...
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Old 11-28-2007, 06:32 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by greg_burns View Post
Running Powermax right now on a 40GB Maxtor have lying around.

There is a Basic scan and an Advanced scan. Don't think either repair anything like I've seen the WD one do. (I don't have bad drive to test against.)

But it should settle once and for all if there really is a problem with your drive or not I would think.
From what I remember of Powermax, there is also a low-level format and in some cases, if a problem is detected, the application will ask you if you want to attempt to repair. I don't recommend that, though - if there are bad sectors on the disk, then its likely that more will form, so unless this is just for temporary reasons, I would not rely on a 'repaired' drive for very long, if at all.
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