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Old 03-29-2015, 01:54 PM   #1
dimeoska
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Data Usage

I am curious if anyone can tell me how much data, on average, the TiVo Roamio uses daily to update services?

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Old 03-30-2015, 02:13 AM   #2
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Do you have a decent router? If so it should be easy to check by comparing the MAC/IP with usage.

BTW, it gets some stuff like video directly from encoded broadcasts.

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Old 03-30-2015, 05:36 AM   #3
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I see 10.87 GB yesterday. But that includes several episodes of "House of Cards" as well as "Broad City". If I read the report correctly, the update alone was about 0.5 GB. I doubt that's an average daily use, that would be killing anyone with data caps.

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Old 03-30-2015, 08:53 AM   #4
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0.5 GB for a TiVo update? Isn't it just a bunch of text basically? That seems way too high.

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Old 03-30-2015, 05:00 PM   #5
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0.5 GB for a TiVo update? Isn't it just a bunch of text basically? That seems way too high.
I agree. I suspect the problem is in the router's reporting software.

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Old 03-30-2015, 05:44 PM   #6
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I had posted earlier. But, I wanted to double check my wireshark captures before I spoke (So, I nuked that post, and checked again).

Up to ~250MB for the actual update packages and slices.
Up to ~250MB for all the other stuff that goes on before, during, and after an update, until it settles back into "normal" operation, which is ~5-20MB per 8 hour interval. ~5MB if "idle", and closer to ~20MB if actively in use. Every move made, button pressed, and so on, all get reported back to TiVo in the virtual real-time connection.

Some updates wipe anything cached locally, and repopulate it. The guide data is often downloaded in full, again, and overwrites what is local, post-update.

I get the feeling I'll get some blowback on this. But, I spent a lot of time refining my port-mirrored wireshark captures, excluding local chatter and any streaming or transferring. The Roamios don't keep very much data locally, and even the cached parts are often retrieved over and over again. Much of the local cached data is only used if it can't be retrieved over the network (like if the network is down), as a fallback option.

I can't just post my captures, as proof, since TiVo doesn't encrypt very much, and is constantly broadcasting details nobody should see, but me.

These Roamios are nothing like the days of TiVos that could go weeks between a required dial-up modem connection. Not at all...

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Old 03-30-2015, 09:41 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post
I had posted earlier. But, I wanted to double check my wireshark captures before I spoke (So, I nuked that post, and checked again).

Up to ~250MB for the actual update packages and slices.
Up to ~250MB for all the other stuff that goes on before, during, and after an update, until it settles back into "normal" operation, which is ~5-20MB per 8 hour interval. ~5MB if "idle", and closer to ~20MB if actively in use. Every move made, button pressed, and so on, all get reported back to TiVo in the virtual real-time connection.

Some updates wipe anything cached locally, and repopulate it. The guide data is often downloaded in full, again, and overwrites what is local, post-update.

I get the feeling I'll get some blowback on this. But, I spent a lot of time refining my port-mirrored wireshark captures, excluding local chatter and any streaming or transferring. The Roamios don't keep very much data locally, and even the cached parts are often retrieved over and over again. Much of the local cached data is only used if it can't be retrieved over the network (like if the network is down), as a fallback option.

I can't just post my captures, as proof, since TiVo doesn't encrypt very much, and is constantly broadcasting details nobody should see, but me.

These Roamios are nothing like the days of TiVos that could go weeks between a required dial-up modem connection. Not at all...
As the internet get more bandwidth and speed more electronics will be tethered to the internet, almost like the cloud type service, we all noticed that when the Roamio first came out it did not work well if the internet was out, or TiVo servers were down, I don't know if this is a good thing or not. Cars are starting to go in that direction now also.

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Old 03-30-2015, 10:48 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post

These Roamios are nothing like the days of TiVos that could go weeks between a required dial-up modem connection. Not at all...
My Premieres are the same. They're almost useless without the internet and it seems pointless to download all of that data when its just going to poop out when the internet goes down. I can't even search for a show, view upcoming showings, or schedule a season pass when my internet is down which seems silly...all that data is sitting right there, isn't it? I caught the tail end of Hart's War the other night. Looked good enough to watch all the way through and it came on immediately following the end of the first broadcast. So I hit the record button and the internet went out. Couldn't schedule it even manually. Had to fire up the cable box. They may as well just drop the data synch and go with always on internet if that's how it will work.

What I really need to do is figure out how to tether my phone to a Tivo or my Router. Too lazy though.

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Old 03-30-2015, 11:15 PM   #9
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How often does your internet go down?

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Old 03-30-2015, 11:21 PM   #10
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How often does your internet go down?
Between high Central Florida winds and thunderstorms...2-3 times a month. I'm home 24/7 so I probably notice more than other people do. Also, as I'm a night owl it seems Bright House/Road Runner does lots of their maintenance (once or twice a month) around 3am which usually also knocks out my TA, internet, and cable box. So, I either read a book or tether up to my laptop and watch some Netflix.

Edit: this is why I'd like to tether my phone to my router. I know I can do it, just haven't got around to it.


Last edited by rahnbo; 03-30-2015 at 11:22 PM. Reason: I forgot stuff.
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Old 03-30-2015, 11:38 PM   #11
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I'll be back to add some more insight and thoughts on the matter. So, stay tuned, if interested.

I'd like to hear from others who wireshark, and might have witnessed TiVo mothballing local storage on Premieres (a modem was an option for them), in favor of the cloud model. I'm curious if hooking up one of those optional modems makes them switch back to local storage...

I don't like every device I own having the potential to be an expensive and useless "brick", in the event of an internet DDOS attack, natural disaster, or change in life circumstances.

While I currently live in a region where UPS backups can let my TiVos operate through a 20 minute power outage (internet and all), I used to live where tornadoes would come through, and all utilities could be out for weeks.

If I still lived there, and had a generator running, and an OTA antenna, modern TiVos would not fare as well as the old ones, as far as what would work without any internet service...

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Old 03-31-2015, 12:00 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post
I'll be back to add some more insight and thoughts on the matter. So, stay tuned, if interested.

I'd like to hear from others who wireshark, and might have witnessed TiVo mothballing local storage on Premieres (a modem was an option for them), in favor of the cloud model. I'm curious if hooking up one of those optional modems makes them switch back to local storage...

I don't like every device I own having the potential to be an expensive and useless "brick", in the event of an internet DDOS attack, natural disaster, or change in life circumstances.

While I currently live in a region where UPS backups can let my TiVos operate through a 20 minute power outage (internet and all), I used to live where tornadoes would come through, and all utilities could be out for weeks.

If I still lived there, and had a generator running, and an OTA antenna, modern TiVos would not fare as well as the old ones, as far as what would work without any internet service...
I'm all ears. Unfortunately my RR doesn't seem to have power backup like it used to. I should probably get on to them about that although I guess it will not matter if they're doing maintenance. BTW, I have one of those ATI TV Wonder sticks for the laptops. Works FANTASTIC with WMP.

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Old 03-31-2015, 02:12 AM   #13
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I'm seeing less than .75GB/day for 2 TiVo units (a S2 and a Roamio) as well as general daily computer use.

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Old 03-31-2015, 08:17 AM   #14
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So I did a little calculation to check if 250 MB of data for a guide data download is reasonable:

Assumptions:
1. 12 Days of Guide Data
2. 300 Channels
3. A metadata set for every half hour of programming (conservative).

For this to require 250 MB of data, each metadata set needs to be 1.45 kB of data. This seems high to me but not by a factor of ten -- more like a factor of 3 or 4.

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Old 03-31-2015, 10:46 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlfl View Post
So I did a little calculation to check if 250 MB of data for a guide data download is reasonable:

Assumptions:
1. 12 Days of Guide Data
2. 300 Channels
3. A metadata set for every half hour of programming (conservative).

For this to require 250 MB of data, each metadata set needs to be 1.45 kB of data. This seems high to me but not by a factor of ten -- more like a factor of 3 or 4.
Who said that 250MB was for just a "guide data download"?

I never said that, nor implied it (at least not intentionally).

Guide data downloads come in more than one form. The rarest of all is a full one, like after CPI&TDL. Even that one comes in two payloads over two calls, and consists of multiple packages. There's so much more to guide data than I ever imagined there could be. It's not just some big text file, like you seem to think it is.

Some updates, like 20.4.6a.RC1 have to do a full re-download, due to issues with the actual guide data, due to a flaw in the previous software.

"Normal" guide data downloads are rather small, and don't even always happen every day.

Wireshark is a real eye opener. It's taught me more about how things work, in a short amount of time, more than anything I've dove into the deep end of, in recent history.

ETA: I think I did a pretty decent job of stating I wasn't focused on guide data, rather the whole uptick in data usage before, during, and after an update, and each update I've captured has been unique. It's not like I could even try to say "this is an itemized list of what every update does, when, and how much data each part will take".

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Old 03-31-2015, 12:47 PM   #16
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Done with this thread. I could add more, but don't have the luxury of being able to keep on top of TCF threads, like I used to...

I'm now able to run wireshark 24x7, and not babysit it. So, I should get some more good captures, and see what 20.4.7 brings, in a context most will never have the luxury to see. If circumstances allow for it, I might dare to share, later on down the road.

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