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Old 11-16-2007, 11:11 PM   #391
lrhorer
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Jbod

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyR View Post
Not only do we have to resign ourselves to losing all of our data if we want to remove the expander, but now you've got 2 points of failure: if either drive fails, we lose *all* video.
This isn't quite true. It's true if one loses the primary drive, all is lost. If one loses the secondary drive, one may not lose all the videos. First of all, any videos recorded before the secondary was added will still be fine. Secondly, I could be mistaken but I seem to recall someone saying they had done some testing and not all the videos recorded after the expansion were lost. All that said, there is a good chance one will lose all the recordings if the external drive fails. None of the settings, wishlists, season passes, etc are lost.

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I was happy to accept those limitations for the hack, but now that this is a supported feature I was hoping that the implementation would be more sophisticated. This just seems like the old hack with a user interface added.
Well, it's more than that. A fully journalled file system allows for the maximum utilization of the added drive space. To be sure, it is less secure, but any other solution must allocate some amount of drive space for recovery.

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They could have given us a backwards migration utility, so that we could move all data off the expansion disk and back onto the original disk if we needed to in the future.
Well, only if the amount used on the expansion drive is less than the free space on the primary. Otherwise, something's got to get trashed. Such a feature could be at least somewhat useful, however. Have you suggested it over on TiVo Suggestion Avenue?

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...isplay.php?f=6

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It would have been great if the expander was added as a data drive, in addition to the original drive, so that loss of the extra drive would only lose the data on the expander drive.
This is the case. While the MFS file syste, is journalled, I don't think it is JBOD, per se. I'm not familiar enough with JBOD to say for certain, but the extra drive just has additional MFS partitions, and the TiVo writes semi-simultaneously to both drives. That's why losing the secondary drive munges many of the videos.

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We can get the flexibility I'd like if we back up all the video to our PCs, but wow--that's a lot of disk space!
Well, since the 2T limit on the Series III is too small for my purposes, that's what I'm doing anyway.

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It would take forever also.
Since TTG is batch queued and takes place in the background, who cares?
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Old 11-16-2007, 11:25 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by richsadams View Post
Others can expound on all of the details, but the basic/primary reason for the expansion architecture being what it is today was to ensure compliance with various laws and regulations forced on TiVo by several industries and regulatory authorities.
Actually, I suspect the main reason was because TiVo had already developed the MFS file system and saw no reason to reinvent the wheel. The MFS file system on the Series III is fundamentally the same as that on the Series I. Apparently after they deployed the Series III they changed their mind somewhat, however. The TiVo HD uses a 64 bit MFS file system.

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I'm sure had TiVo had their way it would have been a much different result, more flexible and robust...along the lines you suggest.
Oh, I doubt that. This is only a DVR, after all, not a file server for a bank. Modern hard drives are so reliable and last so long that a recreational solution which employs no redundancy is not a bad idea. I'm an all out belt-and-suspenders kind of guy, but in this case I think the elimination of fault tolerance with the benefits of maximizing storage and lowering cost is the right decision.
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Old 11-17-2007, 03:13 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by lrhorer View Post
Actually, I suspect the main reason was because TiVo had already developed the MFS file system and saw no reason to reinvent the wheel. The MFS file system on the Series III is fundamentally the same as that on the Series I. Apparently after they deployed the Series III they changed their mind somewhat, however. The TiVo HD uses a 64 bit MFS file system.
It makes sense that they'd use the same format; I’d be surprised if they didn’t. However if that were the end of the story logic would dictate that the eSATA feature should have been good to go from day one.

IIRC there were more than a few stories about TiVo having to get approval/certification from Cable Labs before the MRV, TTG and eSATA options could be implemented; that’s the reason behind it being held up for almost a year.

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Originally Posted by lrhorer View Post
Oh, I doubt that. This is only a DVR, after all, not a file server for a bank. Modern hard drives are so reliable and last so long that a recreational solution which employs no redundancy is not a bad idea. I'm an all out belt-and-suspenders kind of guy, but in this case I think the elimination of fault tolerance with the benefits of maximizing storage and lowering cost is the right decision.
Agreed, redundancy wouldn’t make sense in this case. I was speaking to the OP's point about having more than what is essentially an extended single HDD. Things such as having recordings domiciled on one or the other drive to avoid the loss of all recordings, the ability to move external drives from one machine to another, etc. But you're right; the existing file system doesn't lend itself to that sort of flexibility.
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Old 11-17-2007, 04:45 PM   #394
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I got the message from TiVo re: the WD expander on 11/05. It was out of stock at TiVo and Best Buy, and Western Digital on 11/06. Since WD had not replied to my email request for availability info I phoned WD. I was told they were not currently manufacturing it, and it was uncertain whether they would be manufacturing it in the future. Seems strange since TiVo just rolled out 9.2 and it is obviously a popular item. Has anyone found any other info>
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Old 11-17-2007, 06:05 PM   #395
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problem with mfsadd: after i used this program to marry the internal tivo drive that came with my tivo hd and a western digital 500gb premium esata drive, the tivo is giving me an error message saying:

the tivo has encountered a serious problem. this may take 3 hours to fix.

the tivo recognized my drive as wd es 500gb... before i married them, it just wouldn't let me use it plug and play. what i'm trying to say is i don't think its a problem with the cable or the external drive itself. also the tivo gives me a message saying i need to plug in my external drive after i restarted it without it plugged in so i'm pretty sure the marriage worked. anyone else have this issue? does it take the tivo 3 hours to format my external drive? i read this entire thread and didnt see anything.
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Old 11-17-2007, 06:08 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by back as jac View Post
problem with mfsadd: after i used this program to marry the internal tivo drive that came with my tivo hd and a western digital 500gb premium esata drive, the tivo is giving me an error message saying:

the tivo has encountered a serious problem. this may take 3 hours to fix.

the tivo recognized my drive as wd es 500gb... before i married them, it just wouldn't let me use it plug and play. what i'm trying to say is i don't think its a problem with the cable or the external drive itself. also the tivo gives me a message saying i need to plug in my external drive after i restarted it without it plugged in so i'm pretty sure the marriage worked. anyone else have this issue? does it take the tivo 3 hours to format my external drive? i read this entire thread and didnt see anything.
Just let the TiVo fix the problem.

That said, be aware that some Western Digital My Book drives for PCs include an eSATA cable that is not compatible with the Tivo. Drive corruption and lost recordings can result from the use of that cable.

That's why the FAQ recommends you order your own cable if you use a retail solution other than the My DVR Expander.
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Old 11-17-2007, 06:10 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by Conniko View Post
I got the message from TiVo re: the WD expander on 11/05. It was out of stock at TiVo and Best Buy, and Western Digital on 11/06. Since WD had not replied to my email request for availability info I phoned WD. I was told they were not currently manufacturing it, and it was uncertain whether they would be manufacturing it in the future. Seems strange since TiVo just rolled out 9.2 and it is obviously a popular item. Has anyone found any other info>
Yes, this information is incorrect.

Their allocations are all going to TiVo and Best Buy (for now), and a result, their system shows that they do not expect to receive any more units at WDC.COM. Some reps misinterpret that to mean the product is discontinued.

The BBs in my area appear to receive about one shipment of new drives per week. They got some in Friday before last but they sold out again by Wednesday.
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Old 11-17-2007, 06:18 PM   #398
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Just let the TiVo fix the problem.

That said, be aware that some Western Digital My Book drives for PCs include an eSATA cable that is not compatible with the Tivo. Drive corruption and lost recordings can result from the use of that cable.

That's why the FAQ recommends you order your own cable if you use a retail solution other than the My DVR Expander.
thanks for the response. yea, i'm gonna let it fix it, just getting nervous is all. also, i'm pretty sure the cable is fine because the tivo recognized the drive when i just plugged it in. it just said 'this drive is not able to be used' as plug and play.
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Old 11-17-2007, 06:25 PM   #399
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thanks for the response. yea, i'm gonna let it fix it, just getting nervous is all. also, i'm pretty sure the cable is fine because the tivo recognized the drive when i just plugged it in. it just said 'this drive is not able to be used' as plug and play.
Well, the TiVo will usually recognize the presence of a drive with an inadequate cable. It just won't work reliably.
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Old 11-18-2007, 01:13 AM   #400
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Unsupported TivoHD external drive working.

I just thought I would post the hardware info here to add to the list of stuff that works.

I have a TivoHD that was upgraded to the 9.2a version of the software.
- I'm using an ICY DOCK MB559US-1SMB 3.5" Mirror Black USB 2.0 & eSATA External Enclosure (The mirror black finish looks good with tivo but does show fingerprints)
- I used the eSATA cable that came with the enclosure.
- For the drive I'm using the Seagate ST3500631NS 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive

Personal observations:
The case is very slick, it is aluminum and the entire case acts as a heat sync. This is good as it does not have a built in fan. The only noise you hear is the drive itself will click (quietly) when the head changes tracks. You can hear it if you hit a quiet spot in a show (but honestly how often does that happen. ) There is no audible whine to the drive that I can hear.

I went with a Seagate drive because I've had good luck with them in the past. I've used several of them in computers running 24/7/365 and they all are still working - some +5 years. I can't say the same for the deskstars, WD and Maxtors I've used but this is a personal choice. The AV rated drives were just to expensive for what you get. Results may vary, go with whatever you like.

The winmsf software worked great and the entire process only took a few minutes. Removing the drive out of Tivo was easy the drive was unobstructed and there were no warranty stickers to break. However with all that said if I had to do it over I would just go with a supported solution. The cost is not much more than what I spent, it is a plug-n-play option and you don't need to risk screwing up your system. The only reason to go custom would be if you wanted to add more than 500 MB to your system.

Keep up the good work guys, you make a great utility.
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Old 11-18-2007, 10:02 AM   #401
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Do I need individual backups for each series3?

I have 2 series3 tivos and want to make a backup drive just of the os only in case I ever need to replace a failed drive. Using the WinMFS program will I need to make a backup of each series3's drive or can I make a backup of the os that could be used in either series3?

I wasn't sure after reading the instructions. Sounds like the backup you make can only be used in the exact machine, not another same series3.
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Old 11-18-2007, 11:38 AM   #402
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I have 2 series3 tivos and want to make a backup drive just of the os only in case I ever need to replace a failed drive. Using the WinMFS program will I need to make a backup of each series3's drive or can I make a backup of the os that could be used in either series3?
The truncated backup includes some settings specific to that Series3.

You can can restore that backup image to either Series3, but you will need to perform a clear and delete after you restore the image to the other box. That clear and delete may require your cable company to reactivate your CableCards.
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Old 11-18-2007, 12:09 PM   #403
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The truncated backup includes some settings specific to that Series3.

You can can restore that backup image to either Series3, but you will need to perform a clear and delete after you restore the image to the other box. That clear and delete may require your cable company to reactivate your CableCards.
Thanks for your reply. I'm not using cable cards so I guess all I would have to do is clear & delete and setup the channels and other custom settings?

I just ordered a usb to sata adapter kit from ebay so I can make it as simple as possible. I will feel better knowing I have a backup so I can quickly swap a failed drive if either series3 drives fail.

Last edited by rdtex : 11-18-2007 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 11-18-2007, 12:17 PM   #404
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Thanks for your reply. I'm not using cable cards so I guess all I would have to do is clear & delete and setup the channels and other custom settings?
Correct.
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Old 11-18-2007, 01:17 PM   #405
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Yes, this information is incorrect.

Their allocations are all going to TiVo and Best Buy (for now), and a result, their system shows that they do not expect to receive any more units at WDC.COM. Some reps misinterpret that to mean the product is discontinued.

The BBs in my area appear to receive about one shipment of new drives per week. They got some in Friday before last but they sold out again by Wednesday.
Agreed. Doesn't make sense that WD would discontinue the drive if it was selling so well. Unless there was something technically wrong with the drive.

I'm going to check oout the BB in my area today and ask.

BTW. BB Business had them in stock a few days ago (status said "In Stock"). I checked back when I got home to order and they were out of stock again.
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Old 11-18-2007, 01:31 PM   #406
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You can check local availability at Best Buy with this link. If you intend to purchase from Best Buy, don't forget your 10% off coupon.
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Old 11-18-2007, 04:31 PM   #407
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I followed the link under FAQ III #10 forSATA to USB cables to marry my upgraded TIVO drive and my WD DVR Expander. I bought the product from Newegg (following the link.) They did not send me the exact brand listed (SYBA), but rather a Creative I/O product---but nonetheless, a USB 2.0 to SATA cable. The SATA connection on this cable does not fit the SATA terminal on the WD drive.

any ideas?
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Old 11-18-2007, 04:47 PM   #408
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I followed the link under FAQ III #10 forSATA to USB cables to marry my upgraded TIVO drive and my WD DVR Expander. I bought the product from Newegg (following the link.) They did not send me the exact brand listed (SYBA), but rather a Creative I/O product---but nonetheless, a USB 2.0 to SATA cable. The SATA connection on this cable does not fit the SATA terminal on the WD drive.
That cable fits your internal drive, but not the eSATA drive, correct?

I forgot to update that link for USB -> eSATA. The product I linked is for USB -> SATA (to connect the internal drive), but not USB -> eSATA (to connect an external drive).

Does anyone have some recommendations for a eSATA -> USB adapter?
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Old 11-18-2007, 04:50 PM   #409
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The cable specs for the USB to SATA cable say it supports "SATA II GenI " mass storage devises, if that helps.
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Old 11-18-2007, 04:53 PM   #410
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Yes, the cable fits my internal Tivo drive, but not the external WD drive.

Is there any solution that I can use right now, short of getting a new cable? My Tivo box is open and the drive is out, if possible I'd like to finish this now.

thx.
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Old 11-18-2007, 05:19 PM   #411
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Is there any solution that I can use right now, short of getting a new cable?...
The solution is to get power to the drive somehow. Does your enclosure use cables to connect to the internal drive or does the drive sort of plug directly into a circuit board? If the former then just use the enclosure's internal power cable to the drive and then substitute the USB-to-SATA cable for the enclosure's internal SATA cable to the drive.
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Old 11-18-2007, 10:51 PM   #412
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No one may know the answer to this yet, but ...

FAQ #3 says that the plug and play expansion won't work with a previously upgraded internal drive. Currently I have a stock TiVo HD. Let's say I got the MyDVR Expander and attached it now. Later I decide to upgrade the internal drive and do so by copying the stock drive to a larger disk. Will the external drive still work?
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Old 11-18-2007, 11:43 PM   #413
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Yes, the cable fits my internal Tivo drive, but not the external WD drive.

Is there any solution that I can use right now, short of getting a new cable? My Tivo box is open and the drive is out, if possible I'd like to finish this now.
Unless you disassemble your eSATA drive (which I do not recommend), you are going to need an SATA to eSATA cable.

The SIIG CB-SA0311-S1 SATA to eSATA cable can ordered for $12 from ProVantage.com, $8 from Buy.com, or $10 from TheNerds.net. The PPA Intl. cable from Newegg.com is also confirmed to work.

I wrote that particular FAQ question under the assumption that members would be building their own eSATA solutions and have access to the original bare drive, thereby eliminating the need for a SATA to eSATA cable. My apologizes for that oversight.

I've updated the Part III, FAQ #10 to clarify that a SATA to eSATA cable is required for those using retail eSATA solutions.

Last edited by bkdtv : 11-19-2007 at 02:23 AM.
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Old 11-19-2007, 02:20 AM   #414
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No one may know the answer to this yet, but ...

FAQ #3 says that the plug and play expansion won't work with a previously upgraded internal drive. Currently I have a stock TiVo HD. Let's say I got the MyDVR Expander and attached it now. Later I decide to upgrade the internal drive and do so by copying the stock drive to a larger disk. Will the external drive still work?
You can't do that with the current version of WinMFS, but you can do it with the MFSLive bootCD (more complicated). Hopefully, that capability will be added to a future version of WinMFS to simplify the process.

Credit for this answer goes to spike2k5.
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Old 11-19-2007, 08:24 AM   #415
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"Turn off your computer and connect your internal SATA drive and the new external SATA drive. You can open your computer and connect both with SATA cables, or you can connect them both externally using a pair of SATA->USB adapters. If you are using a retail eSATA drive, you will also need a SATA -> eSATA cable such as the SIIG CB-SA0311-S1 (Buy.com, TheNerds.net, or ProVantage.com) or the PPA Int'l 3848 (Newegg.com)."

So to clarify, the TIVO drive gets connected to my Vista machine via SATA to USB cable. But how is the WD drive connected? What is the function of the SATA to eSATA cable? What does the WD drive get connected to?
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Old 11-19-2007, 08:25 AM   #416
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So am I right, there is no external connection for the WD drive via USB? I have not been able to find a eSATA to USB cable.
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Old 11-19-2007, 09:17 AM   #417
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My DVR Expander via Amazon???

Does anyone know if Amazon will eventually offer My DVR Expander? I can't believe they don't have it! ;(

I have a couple hundred bucks in credits and I'm dying to use them!
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Old 11-19-2007, 12:06 PM   #418
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So to clarify, the TIVO drive gets connected to my Vista machine via SATA to USB cable. But how is the WD drive connected? What is the function of the SATA to eSATA cable? What does the WD drive get connected to?
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So am I right, there is no external connection for the WD drive via USB? I have not been able to find a eSATA to USB cable.
Correct, there is nothing except an eSATA interface on the Western Digital My DVR Expander.

You connect the eSATA drive internally using a SATA to eSATA cable. Or you connect it externally using a USB -> SATA adapter and SATA -> eSATA cable.
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Old 11-20-2007, 04:57 AM   #419
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WD My DVR eSATA Drives Not Available

Good luck expanding a Tivo HD with an external esata drive, which requires the WD My DVR model. They are not available on the WD website or on the Tivo web site or at any retail web site. The only retailer who partly claims to have them is Best Buy, but they are not available online and no store in Oregon (which I checked) has them. Good luck finding one.
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Old 11-20-2007, 09:25 AM   #420
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Good luck expanding a Tivo HD with an external esata drive, which requires the WD My DVR model. They are not available on the WD website or on the Tivo web site or at any retail web site. The only retailer who partly claims to have them is Best Buy, but they are not available online and no store in Oregon (which I checked) has them. Good luck finding one.
I will suggest that Tivo (and partners) really messed up this introduction. First, they missed the Season Premiers by a month or so when people were hot to capture/store new shows and then when they do finally release the OFFICIAL device, they did not plan on their popularity. Good luck finding one soon.
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