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Old 11-19-2009, 10:33 AM   #4081
lew
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Originally Posted by bkdtv View Post
Unfortunately, this appears to be an issue with the latest versions of the WD15EVDS (doesn't affect WD10EVDS). That's why I removed that drive from the first post last month.

You must either live with the "soft reboot" problem or switch to the [noisier] Seagate ST31500541AS or ST315005N4A1AS. I have no experience with this drive so I can't speak to its long-term reliability.
It's starting to sound like whatever firmware changes WD is rolling out isn't compatable with tivo. I'd think it's only a matter of time before the issue is either corrected (all WD drives) or few (if any) current WD drives will work with tivo.

I don't think the problem will be solved until it's time for WD to submit drives with the new firmware to tivo for testing. Even then WD might just decide to use the older firmware with drives shipped directly to tivo.
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Old 11-19-2009, 11:07 AM   #4082
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It's starting to sound like whatever firmware changes WD is rolling out isn't compatable with tivo. I'd think it's only a matter of time before the issue is either corrected (all WD drives) or few (if any) current WD drives will work with tivo.

I don't think the problem will be solved until it's time for WD to submit drives with the new firmware to tivo for testing. Even then WD might just decide to use the older firmware with drives shipped directly to tivo.
The problem is that TiVo uses cheaper WD10EVVS drives in XL units with less cache, so not sure if we'll ever see TiVo testing WDxxEVDS drives.

The issue that we're seeing with firmware on certain drives, especially WD Green drives, is that these drives park heads to save the energy using proprietary technology called IntelliPark. Different firmware versions have different ms delay before the head is returned to reading position. So when TiVo is rebooted and reading head is not in place, TiVo hangs.

This problem doesn't happen on PCs and TiVo "cold boot" because it takes 3-5 seconds for BIOS to read other data about available devices. This delay allows WD Green drives plenty of time to put the head in place. TiVo, on the other hand, during soft reboot expects drive to be readily available right away. That is also the reason why all non-green drives which do not park their heads work fine.

I believe the better solution for TiVo would be to modify their bootup sequence and wait at least 2 secs during soft reboot before expecting to access the drive. But I wouldn't hold my breath for TiVo to modify their software so we can use "unapproved" drives.

Last edited by drey : 11-19-2009 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 11-19-2009, 11:17 AM   #4083
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Go up a few pages. The WD10EVVS drives were the first (current) drives to have issues with the TivoHD. Over the last couple of weeks the issue spread to other models.

Your explanation makes the most sense. It looks like this is becoming a general issue with WD green drives.

I don't know if tivo will be changing their software or if WD will make sure drives shipped to tivo has different firmware from drives sold to the general public.



Quote:
Originally Posted by drey View Post
The problem is that TiVo uses cheaper WD10EVVS drives in XL units with less cache, so not sure if we'll ever see TiVo testing WDxxEVDS drives.

....This problem doesn't happen on regular PCs because it takes 3-5 seconds for BIOS to read other devices and this allows WD Green drives plenty of time to put the head in place. TiVo, on the other hand, expects drive to be readily available right away. That is also the reason why all non-green drives work fine.

I believe the better solution for TiVo would be to modify their bootup sequence and wait at least 2 secs before expecting to access the drive. But I wouldn't hold my breath for TiVo to modify their software so we can use "unapproved" drives.

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Old 11-19-2009, 12:18 PM   #4084
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The DOS version can work, but if the MoBo SATA controller (ICH10R or older) is being used, the DOS may not even see the drive. Also, if a USB adapter is being used, again, DOS may not know what USB is. I know my MoBo with ICH10R needed the WIN version and it ran fast, too.

Dave
I use a Biostar mbd with 2 onboard ide's and 2 onboard sata's for this kind of stuff. Last year when I installed my first 1tb drive in a HD, it worked without a hitch. Last week I tried and WD diags could not see my sata drives (WinMFS sees them, but cannot access them). Turns out I reloaded XP a few months ago and the board needs sata drivers to be loaded to see the ports, which I forgot. If you create a boot disk using DOS you may need to load drivers for your main board or any pci/usb adapter (may not run under DOS), and DOS predates USB, so....
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Old 11-19-2009, 12:46 PM   #4085
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TThe issue that we're seeing with firmware on certain drives, especially WD Green drives, is that these drives park heads to save the energy using proprietary technology called IntelliPark. Different firmware versions have different ms delay before the head is returned to reading position. So when TiVo is rebooted and reading head is not in place, TiVo hangs.

This problem doesn't happen on PCs and TiVo "cold boot" because it takes 3-5 seconds for BIOS to read other data about available devices. This delay allows WD Green drives plenty of time to put the head in place. TiVo, on the other hand, during soft reboot expects drive to be readily available right away. That is also the reason why all non-green drives which do not park their heads work fine.
The "green technology is the problem" theory has been proposed from a number of folks for several years now. However WD GP drives did not exhibit the soft boot issue originally yet they've always touted the "IntelliPark" technology. In the beginning all of their GP drives worked with all TiVo models (I still have one of the original drives which worked in our Series3 and TiVo HD (although it's working as a backup drive now and no longer in one of our TiVo's). It was only after various changes were made to the drive lines (and then in some but not in others) that issues have arisen. Some are no longer working at all and others are exhibiting the soft reboot issue...all models which worked w/o any problems initially.

So good ideas and input but I'm still more inclined to believe it has something to do with firmware changes and not the "green" technologies, although they aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.
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Old 11-19-2009, 02:02 PM   #4086
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So good ideas and input but I'm still more inclined to believe it has something to do with firmware changes and not the "green" technologies, although they aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.
I would suggest it is the Firmware that makes them green and
most likely the Green Technology and FW are doing everything
to SAVE POWER and shutting down the drives or maybe even
slowing them down to save power and heat. Just my GUESS

All of which TiVo may not like so it reboots.
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Old 11-19-2009, 03:24 PM   #4087
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I would suggest it is the Firmware that makes them green and
most likely the Green Technology and FW are doing everything
to SAVE POWER and shutting down the drives or maybe even
slowing them down to save power and heat. Just my GUESS

All of which TiVo may not like so it reboots.
The question isn't about TiVo rebooting on its own. (If TiVo is spontaneously rebooting there's a problem.)

"Green power" hard drives (WD, Seagate, etc.) are designed to spin down and/or park their heads when there is no activity for a specific period of time. Since TiVo hard drives are active 24/7 these drives will never make use of the "energy saver" feature, never spin down and consequently never reboot (at least because of any energy saving technology).

The issue is about WD GP drives not being able to boot TiVo during a "soft reboot". A "hard reboot" means disconnecting power from TiVo (pulling the plug and plugging it back in). "Soft reboots" can occur when the user restarts the DVR via the menu or on other occasions such as a software update from TiVo. In those instances TiVo hangs at the "Welcome! Powering up..." screen. As mentioned, various WD GP hard drives have been fully functional with most or all TiVo models until recently when something changed and several WD drives either do not boot at all or suffer from the soft reboot issue.

Both of our TiVo's have WD GP drives and neither suffer from the soft reboot issue (nor have they ever spontaneously rebooted except during a couple of normal TiVo upgrades).
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Old 11-19-2009, 03:54 PM   #4088
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I use a Biostar mbd with 2 onboard ide's and 2 onboard sata's for this kind of stuff. Last year when I installed my first 1tb drive in a HD, it worked without a hitch. Last week I tried and WD diags could not see my sata drives (WinMFS sees them, but cannot access them). Turns out I reloaded XP a few months ago and the board needs sata drivers to be loaded to see the ports, which I forgot. If you create a boot disk using DOS you may need to load drivers for your main board or any pci/usb adapter (may not run under DOS), and DOS predates USB, so....
Yes, that is what I said when I mentioned the ICH10R. I would be surprised if DOS even knew what that was.
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Old 11-19-2009, 04:32 PM   #4089
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"Green power" hard drives (WD, Seagate, etc.) are designed to spin down and/or park their heads when there is no activity for a specific period of time. Since TiVo hard drives are active 24/7 these drives will never make use of the "energy saver" feature, never spin down and consequently never reboot (at least because of any energy saving technology).
All perfectly good logic, but something in the NEW Drive FW
obviously is not compatible with TiVo. We must be able to
agree on that much
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Old 11-19-2009, 05:23 PM   #4090
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All perfectly good logic, but something in the NEW Drive FW
obviously is not compatible with TiVo. We must be able to
agree on that much
Maybe not! Of course, FW is the first thing to suspect, but it can be, and often is, the drive electronics. An EC can be cut in, and all seems to work. It can also be a manufacturing line that has done something different.

With that said, it is VERY important that all persons who have this soft reboot issue call WD at 1-800-275-4932 and give them your S/N and Model number. Then have this escalated up the chain.

If not, we are just telling ourselves the same story here and trying to guess what WD did.

P.S. WD has looked at this thread.
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Old 11-19-2009, 06:12 PM   #4091
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P.S. WD has looked at this thread.
Okay...no fair! Leaving a tidbit like that hanging out there is like throwing red meat into the lion's den and telling him he can only admire it.
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Old 11-19-2009, 06:19 PM   #4092
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All perfectly good logic, but something in the NEW Drive FW
obviously is not compatible with TiVo. We must be able to
agree on that much
Not disagreeing here...just clarifying a little. As MPSAN noted above and in various other posts...there are a lot of possibilities. We can rule a few out but I'll leave the rest to the experts.

For some of us interested in this little slice of TiVodom it's quite interesting whereas for most folks and in the grand scheme of things it's pretty close to and about as important as making a judgment about how blue the sky is today (or gray if you live in this neck of the woods) and why.
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Old 11-19-2009, 06:38 PM   #4093
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Not disagreeing here...just clarifying a little. As MPSAN noted above and in various other posts...there are a lot of possibilities. We can rule a few out but I'll leave the rest to the experts.

For some of us interested in this little slice of TiVodom it's quite interesting whereas for most folks and in the grand scheme of things it's pretty close to and about as important as making a judgment about how blue the sky is today (or gray if you live in this neck of the woods) and why.
WARNING, No user serviceable data in this posting.

This is why WD MUST build a DB based on Drive models, Mfg. Dates, and place of build. It can be as simple as a manufacturing line, in a single Country, forgetting to add a jumper or impliment a new EC. That can ONLY be resolved by getting data points. The more the better!

P.S. Maybe WD will see this reply as well!
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Old 11-19-2009, 07:48 PM   #4094
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P.S. Maybe WD will see this reply as well!
[shaking head] Cruel...just cruel.
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Old 11-19-2009, 08:51 PM   #4095
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[shaking head] Cruel...just cruel.
OH...and how cruel was it when I wanted to upgrade my TiVo to 1TB and I couldn't see?
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Old 11-19-2009, 08:58 PM   #4096
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I'm glad you've been able to get things back on track using a hard reboot. But what you're experiencing is not normal. Pixelization and audio issues aren't normal and there's no reason anyone should have to repeatedly do a hard reboot to keep TiVo working properly.

The OP's problems could very well be a hard drive issue or it may be something else. Whatever the case it should be diagnosed.
Just because you are not experiencing the same problem does not mean it is not normal. Since I have two tivos that behave exactly the same, I consider it normal for whatever bug in the tivo software thats causing it. Do you have the same cable service that I do? Does your cable service configure their cards the same as mine does. Do you even have cable cards? Perhaps opus123 and I have the same cable service. opus123 should certainly run a full WD diagnostic on the drive to be sure the drive is not defective. But if the diagnostic passes, it may be a common glitch caused by our configuration and a bug in the tivo software.
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Old 11-20-2009, 02:18 AM   #4097
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Just because you are not experiencing the same problem does not mean it is not normal. Since I have two tivos that behave exactly the same, I consider it normal for whatever bug in the tivo software thats causing it. Do you have the same cable service that I do? Does your cable service configure their cards the same as mine does. Do you even have cable cards? Perhaps opus123 and I have the same cable service. opus123 should certainly run a full WD diagnostic on the drive to be sure the drive is not defective. But if the diagnostic passes, it may be a common glitch caused by our configuration and a bug in the tivo software.
Well, I'm really sorry to hear that you're convinced that having to constantly reboot TiVo to keep things running is "normal". Seriously, it's not. There is a problem. It might be a hard drive issue, it could be a signal problem, internal, external, hardware, software, it's hard to know without further analysis.

I see by some of your other posts that you just upgraded one of your TiVo's. I noted that it didn't go as planned at first (don't you just hate that?) but that you were able to get it straightened out with some help. Congrats!

With regard to the OP figuring out what's wrong a good place to start is to give some of TiVo's built-in diagnostics called Kickstarts a try to see if the problem can be resolved. But if that doesn't work, I agree, additional detective work is certainly called for. Here's the Kickstart link:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...23#post5643823

If there's anything else we can do to help, don't hesitate to ask. After 8 plus years of modding TiVo's I may have some ideas, but I certainly don't have all of the answers. Luckily there are a lot of very helpful folks here. Be sure to post as much info as you can and hopefully things can get ironed out.

Oh, yes, I in fact do have cable cards (see my signature).

Last edited by richsadams : 11-20-2009 at 02:28 AM. Reason: Add URL
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Old 11-20-2009, 11:37 AM   #4098
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Question for those with Soft Boot issue.

Hello ALL;

Just a quick question to all of you with WD drives that fail a soft boot. Is AAM changed to 128? I wonder if the setting to make the drive quiet can change the seek profile enough to cause the issue? Perhaps the drive can be set back to the default it came with.
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Old 11-20-2009, 06:33 PM   #4099
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I can verify that the AAM setting did not have an effect on my WD soft-reboot problem.

Though there may be some timing issues involved it is also more complicated than the drive simply needing more time to boot up as poster drey hypothesized. On both of the soft-reboot cases I have seen the drive heads accessed the spun-up drive several times and then eventually things just stopped and the bootup died.
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Old 11-20-2009, 07:01 PM   #4100
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Well, I'm really sorry to hear that you're convinced that having to constantly reboot TiVo to keep things running is "normal". Seriously, it's not. There is a problem. It might be a hard drive issue, it could be a signal problem, internal, external, hardware, software, it's hard to know without further analysis.

I see by some of your other posts that you just upgraded one of your TiVo's. I noted that it didn't go as planned at first (don't you just hate that?) but that you were able to get it straightened out with some help. Congrats!

With regard to the OP figuring out what's wrong a good place to start is to give some of TiVo's built-in diagnostics called Kickstarts a try to see if the problem can be resolved. But if that doesn't work, I agree, additional detective work is certainly called for. Here's the Kickstart link:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...23#post5643823

If there's anything else we can do to help, don't hesitate to ask. After 8 plus years of modding TiVo's I may have some ideas, but I certainly don't have all of the answers. Luckily there are a lot of very helpful folks here. Be sure to post as much info as you can and hopefully things can get ironed out.

Oh, yes, I in fact do have cable cards (see my signature).
lol, I did not need any help. Woop-dee-doo, someone told me about supersize, since I did not know about it because it has been 2 years since I installed my 1TB drive. Who gives a **** about a couple megs. Since you are such an expert on pixelation, I think your expertise would be better applied by solving everyones problems in the pixelation thread. And for that matter, why haven't you been able to solve my pixelation problems. If you had ever really read any of my posts, you would realize that I regularly do full diagnostics on my drives to ensure that they not are defective. And since you asked, please contact TiVo and force them to resolve all pixelation issues not related to defective hard drives. Thank you and let me know when you have resolved the problem.
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Old 11-20-2009, 08:48 PM   #4101
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lol, I did not need any help. Woop-dee-doo, someone told me about supersize, since I did not know about it because it has been 2 years since I installed my 1TB drive. Who gives a **** about a couple megs. Since you are such an expert on pixelation, I think your expertise would be better applied by solving everyones problems in the pixelation thread. And for that matter, why haven't you been able to solve my pixelation problems. If you had ever really read any of my posts, you would realize that I regularly do full diagnostics on my drives to ensure that they not are defective. And since you asked, please contact TiVo and force them to resolve all pixelation issues not related to defective hard drives. Thank you and let me know when you have resolved the problem.
Wow! Why so angry? I never said I was an expert and only offered to lend a hand. Take it or leave it but newbies as well as folks that have been here for a few years usually express their appreciation or at least are civil in their replies.

All the best.
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Old 11-20-2009, 09:16 PM   #4102
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Question

Hi Rich, this is really an incredible amount of helpful info.. THANKS!

Do you recommend that I run all of the kickstart tests (for my audio stuttering & video pixelation), or just one specifically?

FYI.. this morning when i went to record a show in progress.. the tivo rebooted. Thought i'd mention in case it helps diagnosis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by richsadams View Post
Well, I'm really sorry to hear that you're convinced that having to constantly reboot TiVo to keep things running is "normal". Seriously, it's not. There is a problem. It might be a hard drive issue, it could be a signal problem, internal, external, hardware, software, it's hard to know without further analysis.

I see by some of your other posts that you just upgraded one of your TiVo's. I noted that it didn't go as planned at first (don't you just hate that?) but that you were able to get it straightened out with some help. Congrats!

With regard to the OP figuring out what's wrong a good place to start is to give some of TiVo's built-in diagnostics called Kickstarts a try to see if the problem can be resolved. But if that doesn't work, I agree, additional detective work is certainly called for. Here's the Kickstart link:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...23#post5643823

If there's anything else we can do to help, don't hesitate to ask. After 8 plus years of modding TiVo's I may have some ideas, but I certainly don't have all of the answers. Luckily there are a lot of very helpful folks here. Be sure to post as much info as you can and hopefully things can get ironed out.

Oh, yes, I in fact do have cable cards (see my signature).

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Old 11-20-2009, 09:23 PM   #4103
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lol, I did not need any help. Woop-dee-doo, someone told me about supersize, since I did not know about it because it has been 2 years since I installed my 1TB drive. Who gives a **** about a couple megs. Since you are such an expert on pixelation, I think your expertise would be better applied by solving everyones problems in the pixelation thread. And for that matter, why haven't you been able to solve my pixelation problems. If you had ever really read any of my posts, you would realize that I regularly do full diagnostics on my drives to ensure that they not are defective. And since you asked, please contact TiVo and force them to resolve all pixelation issues not related to defective hard drives. Thank you and let me know when you have resolved the problem.
Wow. There's some gratitude for ya, huh Rich?
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Old 11-20-2009, 09:38 PM   #4104
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Hi Rich, this is really an incredible amount of helpful info.. THANKS!

Do you recommend that I run all of the kickstart tests (for my audio stuttering & video pixelation), or just one specifically?

FYI.. this morning when i went to record a show in progress.. the tivo rebooted. Thought i'd mention in case it helps diagnosis.
I think I'd start with KS54...which is a simple MFS diagnostic that may return an error code if it finds a hard drive issue. I say "may" because it's not infallible and has been known to return false negatives (in other words saying that there were no problems when it turned out there actually were), but it's a good start. As noted in the Kickstart post it's best to choose a specific drive (since you don't have an expansion drive only one will show) rather than the "Run S.M.A.R.T. Test" option as that's been known to lock up some TiVo's (although they can recover with a hard reboot).

KS57 and KS58 are variations of MFS assert and can sometimes correct things by isolating bad sectors and fixing corrupted data. It's possible either could help in your situation but the symptoms you've outlined sound more like something else is occurring.

I'd also consider just slipping the original hard drive back in to see if the symptoms continue. If they do you can quickly rule out a hard drive issue.

Hope that helps.

BTW, thanks for the vote of confidence. Like most forums, you get what you pay for here. So many people have helped me along the way I enjoy giving back whenever I can. Best of luck and keep us posted.

Last edited by richsadams : 11-20-2009 at 09:45 PM. Reason: Typo...d'oh!
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Old 11-20-2009, 09:40 PM   #4105
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Wow. There's some gratitude for ya, huh Rich?
Live and let live I guess. Hope all is well!
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Old 11-20-2009, 09:43 PM   #4106
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Live and let live I guess. Hope all is well!
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Old 11-20-2009, 09:51 PM   #4107
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Live Long and Phosphor!
Ha! Good one...an ST/CRT reference in a single package!
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Old 11-20-2009, 10:08 PM   #4108
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Live and let live I guess. Hope all is well!
Things are good. Both S3's are still humming along. Haven't done much with the network or the TiVos lately, but I still monitor these threads. Gotta keep up on the latest.
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Old 11-20-2009, 10:27 PM   #4109
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Things are good. Both S3's are still humming along. Haven't done much with the network or the TiVos lately, but I still monitor these threads. Gotta keep up on the latest.
Good to hear. So you see that our drive choices are suddenly being narrowed? There are a few folks here (that shall remain unnamed...but they know who they are) that seem to know a few secrets. Hopefully all will be revealed one day. Take care and enjoy!
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Old 11-21-2009, 12:27 AM   #4110
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Well, just finished upgrading my TiVo HD with the 1TB WD10EVDS. Everything went according to plan. Haven't had any problems. If I see some of the other problems people have, I'll let you all know.
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