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Old 07-05-2009, 07:10 PM   #3181
moonscape
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Both drives are connected via USB/sata cables to two ports. Tivo drive shows up on port that WD didn't. Yes, both WD drives have had power (I could hear them on but touched just to make sure.)

And yes, I've rebooted so many times my computer/s are dizzy.
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Old 07-05-2009, 07:18 PM   #3182
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Both drives are connected via USB/sata cables to two ports. Tivo drive shows up on port that WD didn't. Yes, both WD drives have had power (I could hear them on but touched just to make sure.)

And yes, I've rebooted so many times my computer/s are dizzy.
Have you tried using the USB/SATA adapter from the TiVo drive with the WD drive? It is possible that one of the USB/SATA adapters is defective.

I would turn off your computer and connect the WD drive to the USB/SATA adapter previously used by the TiVo. Now turn on your computer again and launch WinMFS as an administrator. If you don't see the drive, reboot your computer again without touching the connections.

If that still doesn't work, then -- with only the new WD replacement drive connected -- see if Windows' Disk Administrator can see it. You can find that under Control Panel -> Administrative Tools -> Computer Management.
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Old 07-05-2009, 07:41 PM   #3183
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Okay, this is weird.

I switched the cables as you suggested, and booted 2x with only the WD connected. WinMFS saw it neither time.

But - before, I was getting 'unknown device' which was an improvement over the yellow exclamation point! Now it shows up in device mgr as 'mass storage device' and says it's working properly. That's an inexplicable first, but WinMFS still didn't see it.

After those 2 tries, I booted again w/ both drives connected and WinMFS saw the Tivo drive again (different cable, different port) but still not the WD.
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Old 07-05-2009, 08:09 PM   #3184
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OH, Rich, the heads always crash when you power down. They go to a Landing Zone. Another big argument...is it better to go to a dedicated LZ, or let them fall where they last were used? A dedicated LZ (as on the WD) can be argued that the heads keep landing in the same spot!
Good point/question. Lucky (for us anyway) TiVo never powers down so the drive is working 24/7. I was always of the belief that more damage is done powering a drive down and up again than just leaving it running due to head issues as you mention plus the continual spin up power spikes, etc. There will always be a debate, but for my money leaving drives on and alone has worked best over the years.
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Old 07-05-2009, 08:19 PM   #3185
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Okay, this is weird.

I switched the cables as you suggested, and booted 2x with only the WD connected. WinMFS saw it neither time.

But - before, I was getting 'unknown device' which was an improvement over the yellow exclamation point! Now it shows up in device mgr as 'mass storage device' and says it's working properly. That's an inexplicable first, but WinMFS still didn't see it.

After those 2 tries, I booted again w/ both drives connected and WinMFS saw the Tivo drive again (different cable, different port) but still not the WD.
I don't know if this will help, but I suddenly remembered that during an upgrade (can't remember if it was the S3 or THD...doesn't really matter I don't think) that my PC also didn't see a drive while using a SATA/USB adapter. I was going to use MFS Copy to create the new drive and save my recordings. I was using an older computer I built and it only had two SATA ports on the motherboard and one was being used by the OS hard drive.

I had one drive connected directly to a SATA port on the MB and the other with the USB/SATA adapter. WinMFS didn't see the drive that was connected to the adapter. So I swapped them and everything was fine. I think you may have tried that, but I just dawned on me that the same thing happened to me once, so it's not unheard of.
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Old 07-05-2009, 08:23 PM   #3186
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Good point/question. Lucky (for us anyway) TiVo never powers down so the drive is working 24/7. I was always of the belief that more damage is done powering a drive down and up again than just leaving it running due to head issues as you mention plus the continual spin up power spikes, etc. There will always be a debate, but for my money leaving drives on and alone has worked best over the years.
Yes, my ReplayTV's are still running. I do turn our PC's off each night. Lots of reasons and keeping them running is another argument!

To add more stuff to consider...having the heads "hit" when they land can also knock off any small "rocks" that may be starting to accumulate!

moonscape you need to tell us what finally works. It seems like you do not have a driver issue, etc. XP sees it but does not know what to do with it. Will Disk Management in Control Panel Admin. Tools allow you to try a format of the NEW 1tb DRIVE? I assume there is nothing on that drive. A right click may let you see if the partition is active. If disk management will let you "work" with it, you may be able to make it an active drive. I am NOT talking about Device Manager here, but Disk Management. What do you see in Disk Management?
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Old 07-05-2009, 08:47 PM   #3187
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MPAN - Rich - bkdtv - thanks so much for your input and suggestions.

Incredibly, I spent all day on this so finally gave up for now. Tivo is back together, WDs tucked away, and I'll regroup tomorrow or Tuesday and let you know what I find.

MPAN - I literally LOL when I read 'you need to tell us what finally works' since it was having zero clue what to do next that made me throw up my hands and just put the drives away and the box back together! Then I saw questions I can actually try to answer and that'll be motivation to bring 'em out again. W/out that, I'd be stuck with a 250 drive forever. And, I have the HD one to upgrade which is even smaller.

Thanks again, and watch this space
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Old 07-05-2009, 09:44 PM   #3188
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MPAN - Rich - bkdtv - thanks so much for your input and suggestions.

Incredibly, I spent all day on this so finally gave up for now. Tivo is back together, WDs tucked away, and I'll regroup tomorrow or Tuesday and let you know what I find.

MPAN - I literally LOL when I read 'you need to tell us what finally works' since it was having zero clue what to do next that made me throw up my hands and just put the drives away and the box back together! Then I saw questions I can actually try to answer and that'll be motivation to bring 'em out again. W/out that, I'd be stuck with a 250 drive forever. And, I have the HD one to upgrade which is even smaller.

Thanks again, and watch this space
Great and you can leave the TiVo alone 'til you get XP to recognize the 1TB drive! I am waiting to see what the XP Storage-Disk Management thinks of the WD Drive! What does it report?
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Old 07-06-2009, 03:51 AM   #3189
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I don't know if this will help, but I suddenly remembered that during an upgrade (can't remember if it was the S3 or THD...doesn't really matter I don't think) that my PC also didn't see a drive while using a SATA/USB adapter. I was going to use MFS Copy to create the new drive and save my recordings. I was using an older computer I built and it only had two SATA ports on the motherboard and one was being used by the OS hard drive.

I had one drive connected directly to a SATA port on the MB and the other with the USB/SATA adapter. WinMFS didn't see the drive that was connected to the adapter. So I swapped them and everything was fine. I think you may have tried that, but I just dawned on me that the same thing happened to me once, so it's not unheard of.
That is interesting. But even if it may be that older computers only had 2 SATA ports (moonscape mentions his is a somewhat older computer) and, as the Sabrent docs mention, the adapter bridges the USB to a SATA port (the bootdrive using the other), shouldn't it have worked when he connected the suspect drive to the known working adapter? Anyway, definitely interested in what the resolution is, if any. I think the the laptop method is looking better and better...

It might be worth browsing through the BIOS setup program and look for any settings related to SATA or Plug'n'Play. Good Luck!
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Old 07-06-2009, 09:44 AM   #3190
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That is interesting. But even if it may be that older computers only had 2 SATA ports (moonscape mentions his is a somewhat older computer) and, as the Sabrent docs mention, the adapter bridges the USB to a SATA port (the bootdrive using the other), shouldn't it have worked when he connected the suspect drive to the known working adapter?
For me it was one of those "WTH?" moments but of course I was happy it worked and didn't go any further with it. FWIW the adapter I have is fairly generic, no brand name, made in China. Pretty sure it's this one.

Agreed...it should have worked when he connected the drive to the known working adapter.
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Old 07-06-2009, 10:55 AM   #3191
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I added section linking to the first post. This should make FAQ navigation much easier / faster.

This change was made possible by forum administrators, who added this capability last Thursday.
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Old 07-06-2009, 11:21 AM   #3192
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I added section linking to the first post. This should make FAQ navigation much easier / faster.

This change was made possible by forum administrators, who added this capability last Thursday.
Excellent! Nice work and continued thanks for all of your efforts!
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Old 07-06-2009, 01:35 PM   #3193
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Excellent! Nice work and continued thanks for all of your efforts!

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Old 07-06-2009, 03:05 PM   #3194
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Somehow I knew I wouldn't get out of this w/out feeling like an idiot.

I just tried one of the WD drives on my notebook - again - and this time it showed up. Historically I haven't used administrator, but do use Credential Mgr w/ this HP - mostly for fingerprint site logins - and just forgot. So now my notebook sees the drive. Woot!

Still have no explanation for the desktop as that's not an issue on that one, but will try in a couple of hours when I open up the Tivo again. Hate tying up my notebook (have about 75GB to transfer) - but it is faster than the desktop and hope it won't take too long.

Still curious about the desktop though, and after you guys' counseling investment you deserve to know. We know XP SP2 isn't the issue though for sure.

Thanks again - and hopefully the rest will go smoothly. I had nightmares of two 1TB drives gathering dust in the closet. Reminded me of when pyTivo stopped working on my older notebook. Stopped. Dead. Got so much humanitarian help trying to get it back up but after weeks of trying everything imaginable gave up. Wouldn't work on notebook or desktop. Got this new notebook and it was up in minutes.

I don't know why every computer tech person on the planet doesn't have ulcers.
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Old 07-06-2009, 04:02 PM   #3195
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Update: WD now shows up on desktop and I have no idea why. There's nothing different from yesterday that I can figure. All I did was boot, same as before - and WinMFS sees it.

I was stupid on the notebook side, clueless what the difference is w/ the desktop though.
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Old 07-06-2009, 04:13 PM   #3196
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If you do a truncated backup and restore, as per the instructions in 18A, you preserve all your settings (including season passes and wishlists), but you lose your previous recordings.

If you want to use 18B to backup your recordings too, make sure you temporarily disable any antivirus or security software. As noted in the FAQ, some antivirus and security programs will interfere with the backup process. Usually, such software only slows the copy, but in some cases, it may prevent the copy from completing. If you've already disabled any software that you think could interfere, and you really want to backup and restore all your recordings, then I would try a different computer.
Thanks - this is very helpful. I think the simplest solution is to find a different computer to use as my copy machine.
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Old 07-06-2009, 05:24 PM   #3197
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Update: WD now shows up on desktop and I have no idea why. There's nothing different from yesterday that I can figure. All I did was boot, same as before - and WinMFS sees it.

I was stupid on the notebook side, clueless what the difference is w/ the desktop though.
Yeah, Sure...I bet you went out and bought a new Desktop!
Actually, did you power off the old desktop since we last met?
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Old 07-06-2009, 05:33 PM   #3198
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Update: WD now shows up on desktop and I have no idea why. There's nothing different from yesterday that I can figure. All I did was boot, same as before - and WinMFS sees it.
Glad to hear things are "normal" now.
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Old 07-06-2009, 08:45 PM   #3199
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Yeah, Sure...I bet you went out and bought a new Desktop!
Actually, did you power off the old desktop since we last met?
Yeah, it slept last night, but yesterday I had booted and rebooted so many times...

So - the desktop saw the WD but then didn't see the Tivo drive, after yesterday the reverse. Rather than drive myself nuts trying to dx it, I did the upgrade on my notebook which worked fine. Woot! When the time comes to upgrade the HD (waiting a couple of months to make sure no issues w/ the box) I'll probably be curious enough to try on the desktop again, but at least I have an easier path now

bktv - your FAQ/instructions are awesome - and the links are great!

Thanks much for your suggestions and help, all - you're the best!
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Old 07-06-2009, 10:50 PM   #3200
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Thoughts

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Yeah, it slept last night, but yesterday I had booted and rebooted so many times...

So - the desktop saw the WD but then didn't see the Tivo drive, after yesterday the reverse. Rather than drive myself nuts trying to dx it, I did the upgrade on my notebook which worked fine. Woot! When the time comes to upgrade the HD (waiting a couple of months to make sure no issues w/ the box) I'll probably be curious enough to try on the desktop again, but at least I have an easier path now

bktv - your FAQ/instructions are awesome - and the links are great!

Thanks much for your suggestions and help, all - you're the best!
Sonetimes computers need to be completly powered down, rather than just rebooting.

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Old 07-06-2009, 11:24 PM   #3201
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Sonetimes computers need to be completly powered down, rather than just rebooting.

Carl
+1
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Old 07-07-2009, 08:26 PM   #3202
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I'm upgrading a THD with a WD10EACS today.
Just wanted followup and say that my upgrade went very smoothly following the instructions in the first post. Thanks guys!

I had a Fantom "Green" 1TB external drive that I wasn't using. It contained a WD10EACS. I opened the case, pulled out that drive to use in my Tivo HD, and used the enclosure as a USB-to-sata converter. It worked like a charm, and it was nice that I didn't even have to open my PC. I am now happily cruising along with 157 HD hours of capacity. Yippee!

The only thing that I had to do differently from the FAQ was to use hddscan to adjust the AAM setting on the drive rather than the Hitachi Feature Tool.

I will also add that I'm impressed with the build quality of the Tivo HD box after opening it up. It seems to be put together pretty well.
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Old 07-07-2009, 09:24 PM   #3203
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........The only thing that I had to do differently from the FAQ was to use hddscan to adjust the AAM setting on the drive rather than the Hitachi Feature Tool.........
I believe several people have installed WD10EADS drives. I'm wondering how important the AAM setting thing is? How noisy is it without doing it? Is there a concern that the reduced performance could be a problem?
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Old 07-08-2009, 01:17 AM   #3204
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I believe several people have installed WD10EADS drives. I'm wondering how important the AAM setting thing is? How noisy is it without doing it? Is there a concern that the reduced performance could be a problem?
Adjusting the AAM down to 128 takes the seek noise from about 27/28 dBA to about 24/25 dBA which is equal to the recommended WD10EVVS or WD10EVCS AV GP drives. (By comparison many stock HDD's have seek noise of 32 dBA or higher.) So it really depends on TiVo's location and your sensitivity to noise. Folks that have them in their bedrooms would probably benefit the most.

There is no negative performance impact to TiVo when the AAM is adjusted to 128. As mentioned an AAM of 128 meets the same specs as the DVR dedicated HDD's.

By comparison:

Weakest sound heard - 0dB
Whisper Quiet Library - 30dB
Normal conversation (3-5') - 60-70dB
Telephone dial tone - 80dB
City Traffic (inside car) - 85dB
Train whistle at 500', Truck Traffic - 90dB
Subway train at 200' - 95dB
Level at which sustained exposure may result in hearing loss - 90 - 95dB
Power mower at 3' - 107dB
Snowmobile, Motorcycle - 100dB
Power saw at 3' - 110dB
Sandblasting, Loud Rock Concert - 115dB
Pain begins - 125dB
Pneumatic riveter at 4' - 125dB
Loudest recommended exposure WITH hearing protection - 140dB
Jet engine at 100', Gun Blast - 140dB
Death of hearing tissue - 180dB
Loudest sound possible - 194dB (equal to my neighbor's dog barking at 3 a.m.)

TiVo's run pretty darn quiet.
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Old 07-08-2009, 05:31 AM   #3205
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In addition, humans can easily distinguish differences of ~3dB so the change is worthwhile (assuming you can hear the head seeks of a stock drive). The WD GP series are actually relatively quiet in normal mode compared to conventional drives of just a year ago.

The TiVo is such an unchallenging application for a modern hard drive that there is no performance degradation in attenuating the head seek aggressiveness. Even with two recordings and another simultaneous playback the hard drive is just waiting around for something to do the majority of the time. The drive can read and write much faster than the Tivo can process. Visualize the Tivo filling up buffers and drive emptying them in an instant and then just idling waiting for something to do. Alternately, the drive fills buffers in an instant and then waits for the TiVo to process the stream.
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Old 07-08-2009, 10:43 AM   #3206
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Thanks, Rich and jlib,

I was surprised to learn that TiVo puts such small demands on the HDD.

Does 128 for AAM mean the same thing in hddscan as in the Hitachi tool?

Looks like the FAQ could be updated (Sect. IV, #31) to include the hddscan tool. Looks like it is also easier to use than the Hitachi.
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Old 07-08-2009, 05:59 PM   #3207
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...Does 128 for AAM mean the same thing in hddscan as in the Hitachi tool?...
The 128 isn't a vendor specific or arbitrary value. AAM is part of the ATA/ATAPI-6 specification that most drives conform to since the early century. The 128 actually refers to a hexadecimal value (80h) in a persistent register in the firmware. Since we have a hard time thinking in hex, user utilities translate the 80h to decimal 128. That is probably more than you wanted to know but it means that every utility's 128 refers to the same value.
Code:
Level                                 Sector Count Value

Maximum performance level                FEh
Intermediate acoustic management levels  81h-FDh
Minimum acoustic emanation level         80h

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Old 07-08-2009, 06:38 PM   #3208
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Trying to backup my internal 250 and external 750 from my S3. The external was added using kick start 62. When the pc boots, I can get part info and pdisk info for all 3 disks, but when I go to run the backup command:

backup -qTao - /dev/sda /dev/sdb | restore -s 128 -zpi - /dev/sdc

I get the following error:

Backup: /dev/sda10: Success.
To attempt backup anyway, try again with -E. -s is implied by -E

Am I doing something wrong?
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Old 07-09-2009, 07:25 PM   #3209
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After spending many hours over the past several days reading posts here, a few suggestions:

Get Speedfan a free windows program actively maintained by the author. While basically a motherboard monitor, it does have a SMART interrogation function. Moreover the author maintains a database of thousands of HDD's for comparison. A link on the speedfan SMART function will take the user to that database allowing comparison of the user's drive 'health' to like drives in the database.

I recently tested an old 80GB WD SATA drive and found the sector re-allocation count had reached 2550. This is close to the limit for that size drive. When the limit is reached the drive will fail.

When the SMART function is invoked the SMART parameters are displayed and the 2 bars on the bottom depict 'fitness' and 'performance''.

SATA brackets, my 2 Gigabyte motherboards a P35 and P45, both included a SATA bracket with 2 SATA ports and a power port and a 8 inch molex to SATA power cable that plugs into the power port on the bracket. The power port is essentially the standard 4 pin molex. As depicted in another post these can be purchased from etailers like Newegg.

About 2 years ago I purchased a TIVO HD and experienced the 'video loss' problem reported on a thread (now closed) by many users on this forum. Returned the TIVO and cancelled the subscription after 2 weeks, too much trouble while my Sony HDD250 was (and still is) working perfectly.

Returning to this forum several weeks ago it appears that problem was finally fixed, after nine months.
Now a TIVO HD is en route by UPS and expected tomorrow, so ready to take the plunge again.

BTW 2 years ago I did use winmfs to create a larger drive. Instead of installing it in the TIVO, disconnected the internal drive and connected the external drive, lying behind the TIVO to the TIVO internal SATA connections. Good way to test. Worked perfectly.

Finally, my compliments to bkdtv. Your posts here and on the avsforum are a goldmine of info. Not to slight the experienced posters like richsadams, keep it up guys.

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Old 07-09-2009, 10:38 PM   #3210
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The Active Hard Disk Monitor works well. I have used it several times but do not often run it.
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