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Old 06-11-2009, 02:53 AM   #2971
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I have heard people trying to recover the data by freezing the drive first or running the drive in a refrigerator. No personal experience.
I had always thought those stories were merely apocryphal. Five years ago I had a 250GB drive filled with MP3 files not backed up. The drive failed and even Spinrite was no help in getting through the click of death.

In desperation I tried the freeze technique. Freezing the drive for an hour gave me about 10 minutes of use to allow copying data off before failure again. I repeated this multiple times (I seem to remember losing an entire Saturday to the project) and I still have all the data (in redundant form this time around).

Sometime later I proudly boasted to a chef friend that I could recover his unbacked up recipe collection from a drive with similar symptoms. That time I had no success whatsoever and, to my embarrassment, had to humbly return unrescued drive. Sometimes the magic works and sometimes it doesn't.
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Old 06-11-2009, 08:50 AM   #2972
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Unbelievable Samsung HD

I know that WD drive has been the preferred drive for Tivo. I own one myself. But look at this:


$69.99 after coupon EMCLTMM28

LINKY [newegg.com]

Model
Brand SAMSUNG
Series EcoGreen F2
Model HD103SI
Performance
Interface SATA 3.0Gb/s
Capacity 1TB
RPM 5400 RPM
Cache 32MB
Average Seek Time 8.9ms
Average Latency 5.52ms
Physical Spec
Form Factor 3.5"

It is rumored that this drive sports 2 platters of 500GB per platter.

Wonder if anybody tried this with Tivo.


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Old 06-11-2009, 12:35 PM   #2973
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Model
Brand SAMSUNG
Series EcoGreen F2
Model HD103SI
...
Wonder if anybody tried this with Tivo.
There were mixed results with the Spinpoint F1 predecessor drive. I don't remember anyone reporting on this new one yet. It certainly has the right kind of specs and that is the kind of price that TiVo upgraders have been waiting years for. For that price it is worth risking being a pioneer.
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Old 06-11-2009, 01:02 PM   #2974
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A...
I have heard people trying to recover the data by freezing the drive first or running the drive in a refrigerator. No personal experience.
Strange

A little awkward to admit this but my external 750 went bonker clicking last week and gave the blue screen of can’t find external drive and would I like to disconnect it. I resisted the temptation for days as I continued every hard reboot I could think of. I finally order the Seagate ST31500541AS, but as I was mourning the loss of about 1TB while driving on the road in my car I remembered the old frantic when all else fails run to your freezer and throw your high tech in option.

However, when I reconnected the hard drive when it looked like a frosty draft from the tap it didn’t work. It was only when the water beads appeared that it finally came back to life. It gave me about 120 hrs to back up the TiVo using kmttg - TTG program for 1 step download, decrypt,and encode and did it painstakingly in real time.

They still haven’t shipped the Seagate ST31500541AS, but the external drive isn’t clicking and evidently doesn’t want go back in the cold.

Just goes to show a frozen TiVo isn't all bad.

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Old 06-11-2009, 01:41 PM   #2975
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I know that WD drive has been the preferred drive for Tivo. I own one myself. But look at this:

$69.99 after coupon EMCLTMM28 LINKY [newegg.com] <snip>
Nice find. I just ordered one - $69.99 w/coupon code incl. shipping - saahweet! I think back to the first WD 1TB a bunch of us bought for $259 from BB a couple of years ago...and we thought we really scored. And hey, I'm always up for a challenge!

I was looking for a good backup drive. So I'll go ahead and image this new Sammy and pop it into my TiVo HD, pull the WD10EVCS and use it for a backup drive for one of my Mac's if it works. I know the Spinpoints were problematic in TiVo's for some folks (soft reboot issue or just flaky IIRC) so if it doesn't work in the TiVo HD I'll just slip the WD back in and use the Sammy for a backup. Win-win!

I'm mucho busy the next couple of weeks but I'll post back ASAP.
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Old 06-11-2009, 05:06 PM   #2976
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I've been reading through this post - but still need to doublecheck things to be sure. I have a TivoHD (TCD652160) and want to upgrade it. From the first page, it looks like I can replace the hard drive with a 1TB (or even a 1.5TB) hard drive. I would like to maximize the storage space of this unit. At least one ebay seller told me I could put in a 2GB hard drive - but from what I see here, that isn't true. This is why I want to check and doublecheck.

I was going to be getting a 1TB dvr expander for my birthday in a few days. Is there a way to change the hard drive and use the expander - for a total of 2TB of storage? If so, I have some vague idea that I have to do it at the same time. Is that right? If I replace the hard drive first, is it too late to add the expander later? If I swap the hard drive, can I use the dvr expander or would I have to use a non-tivo-endorsed external hard drive?

Can I use a 1/5 TB hard drive (rendering me with a useable 1.2 TB or storage) and also add an external 1TB drive?

Rich - you mentioned in my other thread that there was a Western Digital drive going for around $99. But does this have to be somehow prepared for use in the Tivo? I don't know if I can handle that. I bought a 500GB hard drive and replaced the one in my Tivo2 - but I believe that hard drive was already some prepared for a Tivo. All I did was unplug the original drive and plug in this one.

I'm a bit disheartened that a seller (who sold me the great 500GB drive for my Tivo2) would tell me I can put a 2TB drive in the TivoHD (TCD652160) if that is incorrect. And the seller and I were very specific about this being the model I had.

Thanks.
Lynn.

PS if I can change internal hard drive and add external drive, can someone tell me where to get specific instructions on how to do this - in what order - bc. I'm under the impression that it has to be done simultaneously or it won't work.
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Old 06-11-2009, 05:15 PM   #2977
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...It is rumored that this drive sports 2 platters of 500GB per platter.
Not really a rumor it is just that people were thinking it was going to be vaporware as the F1 (1/3 TB platters) was for so long. The fact that they are actually shipping only six months after announcing is great news.
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Old 06-11-2009, 05:33 PM   #2978
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...there was a Western Digital drive going for around $99. But does this have to be somehow prepared for use in the Tivo? I don't know if I can handle that.
I'll let those who have actually done the double upgrade comment on the details. I only want to urge you to not do the external upgrade by itself if you imagine you will ultimately want to upgrade the internal one also. Do the internal upgrade first or simultaneously with the external one.

Secondly, if you have access to a modern PC and have no aversion to opening it up to, for example, replace a drive or memory then you can definitely handle the upgrade process with the software tools that are available these days.
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Old 06-11-2009, 07:26 PM   #2979
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OK, bought the 1TB WD drive recommended for internal replacement, bought the Torx drivers, now to make change. Recommened is to buy a SATA to USB cable from New Egg to hook up to the 'puter. I can do this but .... since I have an eSATA connection on my laptop and have an eSATA cable from my external WD I am no longer going to use, CAN I DOWNLOAD/SWAPOUT/do the WinMFS thing with this connection instead of the SATA to USB? This will save time and a few bucks.
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Old 06-11-2009, 07:30 PM   #2980
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following the instructions to upgrade. i am going from a WD 1TB drive (wrong model) to the proper 1TB WD drive.

my estimated time remaining after running msfcopy for 30 minutes is 3 hours. is this normal?
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Old 06-11-2009, 07:41 PM   #2981
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...since I have an eSATA connection on my laptop and have an eSATA cable from my external WD I am no longer going to use, CAN I DOWNLOAD/SWAPOUT/do the WinMFS thing with this connection instead of the SATA to USB? This will save time and a few bucks.
Yes, you can put the bare drive in the enclosure which is SATA internally. Then connect the enclosure to laptop via eSATA cable. When finished with the upgrade just remove drive and install it in the TiVo.
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Old 06-11-2009, 09:06 PM   #2982
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jlib - thanks for the admonition to not add the external drive until I upgrade the internal (which I definitely want to do). (Now I still need to find out the order of internal hard drive swap and adding external drive - and whether it matters if it's the dvr expander or not?). I have never opened up a computer to change the drive, memory or anything. My only experience with anything close to this was to open up my Tivo 2 and change the hard drive to one that was already prepared. All I had to do was open the box - unscrew the hard drive - disconnect the grey ribbon and power cord - then reconnect with the new drive. No software issues - no programming - no connecting to my pc for anything. So attempting to program my own hard drive - if it involves opening my computer and running software - still seems over my head. Just reading through some of these posts, the language is intimidating "WinMFS", "MSFcopy" "Making an image of the drive" - and I wouldn't know what was what if I opened up my computer. If the difference in price is under $50, I think I'd rather have someone do it who knows what they're doing - provide support if needed, stands behind the product/work.

That being said, I have wondered whether I might some day get the courage to install a firewire port in my Dell (which has a slot for one, but wasn't an option I chose 17 months ago - bc. I didn't even understand what it was or why I'd want one) - and considered adding a second internal hard drive (if - and only if- I found really really simple instructions and a forum to walk me through any problems. Do you think such an inexperienced person should attempt this?

Thanks.
Lynn.
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Old 06-11-2009, 11:28 PM   #2983
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Lynn,

Did you see the instructions in section V of the first post? Follow those instructions and you can't go wrong.

If you aren't comfortable opening your computer, and your computer doesn't have external SATA or eSATA ports, you can always use a USB -> eSATA adapter.
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Old 06-12-2009, 01:19 AM   #2984
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Rich - you mentioned in my other thread that there was a Western Digital drive going for around $99. But does this have to be somehow prepared for use in the Tivo? I don't know if I can handle that. I bought a 500GB hard drive and replaced the one in my Tivo2 - but I believe that hard drive was already some prepared for a Tivo. All I did was unplug the original drive and plug in this one.
Hi Lynn. Yes, you'll need to use your original hard drive to "image" (or create a copy of your original hard drive's information) on your new hard drive. Think of it like this: you have a file on your computer. You want to use that file on another computer. What to do? You can make a copy of the file and transfer it to the other computer. It's the same here. What you're going to do is copy your TiVo's operating system or "image" (using the original hard drive) to a PC. Then you're going to copy that data onto your new, larger hard drive. All of that will be done using a pretty simple free Windows program called winMFS. There are a few more steps to it than that but it's really just a glorified copy and paste procedure that sounds much more scary than it really is. Once that is done everything will work just the same as it does now, only there will be a lot more room for recordings.

Now that said, if you really think you need more than 1TB of space for recordings you can add or "marry" an external/eSATA hard drive to the new internal hard drive during the this same process. It doesn't matter if the eSATA drive is one of the "approved" Western Digital My DVR Expanders or another one of the recommended eSATA hard drives listed on the first post. If that's what you want to do it's a little more complicated than just upgrading the internal hard drive, but again if you follow the directions it works fine. You'd need to read and follow the directions in Section IV, #11 of the first post on this thread.

All of that said, you could indeed buy a pre-imaged drive from a company like DVRUpgrade.com and just install the drive in your TiVo, however the cost will be more than $50 above a DIY upgrade. Plus if you still want to use an external hard drive you'll have to "marry" it to the new hard drive using winMFS so you're sort of back to square one. In addition you will need to set TiVo up again as if it was brand new (have your cable company re-pair your cable cards, etc.).

It sounds like you've given this a lot of thought and if you replaced a hard drive in a Series2 I don't see any reason you couldn't do the same with your TiVo HD. Perhaps you have a "geeky" sort of friend that can help? The process can be intimidating at first and having someone that knows a little bit about computers to hold your hand couldn't hurt...but no one needs to be a computer genius to do this.

I guess my first question would be this: do you really need 2TB's of recording space? That is an awful lot of space and the only reason most people want that much space is to archive recordings. If that's the case, another option is to upgrade to a 1TB drive and move any recordings (that aren't copy protected) you'd really like to keep to a computer via TiVo Desktop, PyTiVo, etc. Then you can keep them there, on a backup drive, burn them to a DVD or even transfer them back to your TiVo at a later date.

Me? My wife and I have tons of recordings and we keep some but a 1TB hard drive has been more than enough for us. We have hours and hours of recordings we still haven't watched...maybe never will. But we've never gotten to the point of saying "gee, I wish we had twice as much space". Another plus for me is one less fail point. When you have an external drive, recordings are spread across both drives. If either drive fails, all of your recordings are lost. Just something to consider.

My recommendation for a "first timer" would be to simply upgrade the internal hard drive on your TiVo HD to 1TB using the recommended Western Digital WD10EVCS or WD10EVVS (links to retailers and pricing are on the first post on this thread) using winMFS as outlined in Section V, #18. That'll give you 157 HD and 1367 SD hours of recording space. It's also the easiest of all of the DIY ways to upgrade your TiVo. If at a later time you want to add an external drive you can still do that (Section V, #10).

In any case, give the first post a good going over and if you still have questions, don't hesitate to ask.

Happy upgrading!

P.S. Adding a firewire port to your Dell is a cakewalk. It's just a matter of buying a PCI Firewire card, opening your computer up and plugging it into an available PCI slot. If you look at the back of your computer where your monitor, Ethernet cable, speakers, etc. plug in, the port would end up right there with the rest. In fact if you Google "PCI Firewire Card" the very first link is to some Firewire cards for sale on the Dell web site. This web site has pictures of the card, installation, etc.:

http://www.usbgear.com/firewire_800_...new/index.html

Be brave, live dangerous!

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Old 06-12-2009, 01:40 AM   #2985
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following the instructions to upgrade. i am going from a WD 1TB drive (wrong model) to the proper 1TB WD drive.

my estimated time remaining after running msfcopy for 30 minutes is 3 hours. is this normal?
If you're copying all of your recordings as well, yes 3+ hours is not unusual...depending on how many recordings you have of course.
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Old 06-12-2009, 03:54 AM   #2986
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that price looks nice, but i still prefer wd over samsung
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Old 06-12-2009, 09:23 AM   #2987
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Hey, I've got a question about this thread..

It all seems to be about "Open your TiVo and replace the drive". Is there a thread about the MyDVR expander specifically that doesn't involve opening the box? I wanted to ask a few questions about the MyDVR Expander, but I don't want to be lost in a sea of posts regarding "Dude, just replace your hard drive".
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Old 06-12-2009, 10:42 AM   #2988
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Hey, I've got a question about this thread..

It all seems to be about "Open your TiVo and replace the drive". Is there a thread about the MyDVR expander specifically that doesn't involve opening the box? I wanted to ask a few questions about the MyDVR Expander, but I don't want to be lost in a sea of posts regarding "Dude, just replace your hard drive".
Sure, info about adding an eSATA drive is how this thread originally got started. Most everything about that is covered in Sections I - III of the first post of this thread; but if after reading that you still have questions...don't hesitate to ask!
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Old 06-12-2009, 08:13 PM   #2989
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That 1gb Samsung drive is out of stock at Newegg. Bummer!

Does anyone else have good deals/ideas for internal drive replacement? My Tivo Series 3 HD has crapped out and I'd like to get a new 1tb drive ordered quickly.

I see Amazon has the Western Digital VVS-model for $102. Are weill still supposed to avoid the OEM Caviar (WD10EADS) model?

Thanks,
Rob

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Old 06-12-2009, 08:17 PM   #2990
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Please excuse my post here. For some reason I quit getting email notices....just trying to Jump-start them.
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Old 06-12-2009, 09:53 PM   #2991
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That 1gb Samsung drive is out of stock at Newegg. Bummer!

Does anyone else have good deals/ideas for internal drive replacement? My Tivo HD has crapped out and I'd like to get a new 1tb drive ordered quickly.

I see Amazon has the Western Digital VVS-model for $102. Are weill still supposed to avoid the OEM Caviar (WD10EADS) model?

Thanks,
Rob
You're safe using the WD10EADS in your TiVo HD (they should NOT be used as an internal upgrade in TiVo Series3's).

ZipZoomfly.com offers the OEM WD10EADS, for $94.99 with free shipping. Coupon code "ZZFCDNO" cuts it to $89.99. Plus, this $15 mail-in rebate chops it to $74.99.

$74.99 after rebate. (Don't forget to use the coupon!)
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Old 06-12-2009, 09:54 PM   #2992
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Please excuse my post here. For some reason I quit getting email notices....just trying to Jump-start them.
You only have to log into the forum once and they should start again. No need to post on each thread. Check your thread subscriptions in your user control panel to be sure the one's you want are listed.
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Old 06-13-2009, 09:40 AM   #2993
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Just wanted to thank TiVo Community for this thread - upgraded my TiVo HD to the 1gb EVVS Western Digital drive, WinMFS worked flawlessly (and surprisingly fast)!
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Old 06-13-2009, 09:58 AM   #2994
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So I've been reading and reading. First, Rich, I want to say that I could probably quickly use 2 TB's of space. I only had my Tivo2 and Tivo HD up and running and recording since January. Before I realized the space limitations, it started deleting recordings I wanted of In Treatment and American Idol. (Now I know how to set it to save until I delete.) But I still ran out of space quickly, so I was transferring recordings to my PC (with over 350GB available space). That filled within a month and my Tivo's were filled to capacity and no place to keep more. So I got VideoReDo and started burning to DVD to make room.

I do keep some movies - for whatever time I might actually get around to watching. And I do want to archive some television series. So I think I could easily fill 2TB on the Tivo HD and the 500GB on the Tivo2 - and still be burning some to DVD to save.

I read the earlier sections you recommended. I want to doublecheck. I think I'm up for preparing my own new 1 TB hard drive using my Tivo's original drive and hooking up to the computer. I gather I'll have to open my computer and get some sort of cable. Now I will want that additional external hard drive. I can do it all at the same time. If I keep the copy I made on my computer when preparing the internal drive replacement, can I later use that to prepare the external drive? Or do I somehow have to get the upgraded internal drive and external drive synced at the same time.

If I do the internal first, will I have to remove it to prepare the external later?
Is there any reason not to use the 1TB dvr expander as the external drive - and "marry it" to the upgraded internal drive? Is the only reason folks don't do that the cost? This 1TB dvr expander cost $169 on amazon (no shipping, no tax). By the time I buy another 1TB drive, the box it goes in and any cable I need, it's getting pretty close to the same amount of money, isn't it? But perhaps this DVR expander doesn't save me any time or trouble if I still have to dissemble to marry it to the new upgraded internal drive. Is it harder than putting an external one together myself? (the complicating factor is that my mother has gotten me this DVR expander for my birthday coming up - I'd rather not have to reject the gift and return it if it's not of great time or financial benefit. She'll kind of understand - it won't be deeply upsetting but it makes it still a little less from her if the item she purchased through amazon is returned and I make the raw part purchase myself.)

Thanks.
Lynn.

drhicking - glad to hear it went smoothly for you. Do you have computer/tivo experience or are you a newbie to all this?
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Old 06-13-2009, 11:33 AM   #2995
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You're safe using the WD10EADS in your TiVo HD (they should NOT be used as an internal upgrade in TiVo Series3's).

ZipZoomfly.com offers the OEM WD10EADS, for $94.99 with free shipping. Coupon code "ZZFCDNO" cuts it to $89.99. Plus, this $15 mail-in rebate[/url] chops it to $74.99.

. (Don't forget to use the coupon!)
Rich,
Thanks very much. I had to re-read my post three times to figure out why you suggested I use the OEM drive when I said my internal Tivo hard drive had died. I failed to mention it's my Tivo Series 3 that died. When I said "Tivo HD" in my original post I meant "hard drive", not the TivoHD box.

I'll check if I can use that coupon you posted with the VVS drive.

UGH - ZZF is also out of stock on the VVS drive.

PS - found the VVS drive at Wiredzone.com for $92.15 and free shipping.

Thanks,
Rob

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Old 06-13-2009, 12:58 PM   #2996
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You only have to log into the forum once and they should start again. No need to post on each thread. Check your thread subscriptions in your user control panel to be sure the one's you want are listed.
OK, didn't know that. Control Panel shows I'm subscribed. I hadn't gotten an email notice for over a week. Is there a cookie that a Adaware or SB S&D might have deleted? Seems it might have started after running them.

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Old 06-13-2009, 01:45 PM   #2997
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OK, didn't know that. Control Panel shows I'm subscribed. I hadn't gotten an email notice for over a week. Is there a cookie that a Adaware or SB S&D might have deleted? Seems it might have started after running them.

Thanks,
This happens to me all the time if I don't visit this forum for awhile. I have a feeling there's something in the software that stops the auto emails if you haven't logged in for a specified period of time. Once I come back the emails come back. Same thing happens on the AVS forums. If for some reason I go back there, I start getting emails from old threads I am subscribed to that are still active.
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Old 06-13-2009, 01:55 PM   #2998
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I'd still like feedback from my post (4 posts earlier), but want to add something. I just went to dvrupgrade site. I wondered if it would be easier for me to just buy the instantcake cd and not have to get the information from my original Tivo hard drive. They suggest that diy's can do this "If you can connect a disk drive to your PC as a secondary IDE master, and can configure your PC to boot from CD-ROM on the primary slave, then you can do it yourself, and save money and time!" Well - I don't know how to connect a disk drive to my pc - and don't even know what it means "as a secondary IDE master". I don't know how to configure my PC to boot from cd-rom ont he primary slave - again, these are concepts I'm completely unfamiliar with.

So I have some interest in doing this myself - and appreciate Rich's encouragement - but the info on dvrupgrade site is scaring me off. They mention the possibility of damaging the existing pc - overriding data on it. I definitely don't want to mess up my computer - but I'm not sure I know enough to avoid doing harm. I checked back on this thread now bc. I was all ready to go and order the drives, encasements and cables I needed and wanted to confirm what to buy. But perhaps I'll wait until a couple of more people weight in before proceeding and getting myself in trouble.

Rich - I wish I had some nerdy friend who could help - hold my hand through this. The only person who'd be right for this job is my nephew (who's considering building his own linux machine) - I know he'd understand enough - but he's in California and I"m in Washington, DC. Any nerdy folks in this region that would like to befriend me for this project?
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Old 06-13-2009, 02:20 PM   #2999
richsadams
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Originally Posted by bareyb View Post
This happens to me all the time if I don't visit this forum for awhile. I have a feeling there's something in the software that stops the auto emails if you haven't logged in for a specified period of time. Once I come back the emails come back. Same thing happens on the AVS forums. If for some reason I go back there, I start getting emails from old threads I am subscribed to that are still active.
Ditto. Well, it happened to me once while I was overseas anyway. I posted a question about it over on the operations forum and was set straight by one of the moderators.
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Old 06-13-2009, 02:52 PM   #3000
richsadams
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lynnalexandra View Post
I'd still like feedback from my post (4 posts earlier), but want to add something. I just went to dvrupgrade site. I wondered if it would be easier for me to just buy the instantcake cd and not have to get the information from my original Tivo hard drive. They suggest that diy's can do this "If you can connect a disk drive to your PC as a secondary IDE master, and can configure your PC to boot from CD-ROM on the primary slave, then you can do it yourself, and save money and time!" Well - I don't know how to connect a disk drive to my pc - and don't even know what it means "as a secondary IDE master". I don't know how to configure my PC to boot from cd-rom ont he primary slave - again, these are concepts I'm completely unfamiliar with.

So I have some interest in doing this myself - and appreciate Rich's encouragement - but the info on dvrupgrade site is scaring me off. They mention the possibility of damaging the existing pc - overriding data on it. I definitely don't want to mess up my computer - but I'm not sure I know enough to avoid doing harm. I checked back on this thread now bc. I was all ready to go and order the drives, encasements and cables I needed and wanted to confirm what to buy. But perhaps I'll wait until a couple of more people weight in before proceeding and getting myself in trouble.

Rich - I wish I had some nerdy friend who could help - hold my hand through this. The only person who'd be right for this job is my nephew (who's considering building his own linux machine) - I know he'd understand enough - but he's in California and I"m in Washington, DC. Any nerdy folks in this region that would like to befriend me for this project?
You want more feedback than what I posted earlier?!

The comment about the secondary IDE drive, etc. on the DVRUpgrade site is directed at Series1 and Series2 TiVo owners. Your TiVo HD has a SATA hard drive so those instructions don't apply. Also since you'd be booting from a CD they recommend that you disconnect your regular operating system's hard drive to avoid overwriting anything (not likely but could happen)...so as long as you do that there's nothing to worry about.

Quite frankly the more I hear the more I'd say at this point in time you should probably just buy a pre-imaged hard drive from DVRUpgrade or Weaknees and install it in your TiVo. It's basically the same thing that you once did with your Series2: open TiVo, disconnect the hard drive and connect the new one. It will be like a new TiVo so you'll have to get your cable cards provisioned or "re-paired" by your cable company, re-run Guided Setup, Season Passes, etc.

However if you're determined to have your TiVo HD have more than 1TB of recording space you (or someone you know and love or can bribe...or both) are going to have to connect the various new and old hard drives to a computer and follow the program/upgrade instructions on the first post of this thread. Absolutely everything you need to know is there. What you want to do is hack your TiVo. It's not condoned by TiVo and there aren't any easier alternatives.

Well, there is one...buy a TiVo HDXL and connect a 1TB WD My DVR Expander to it. All legal, full warranty, 2TB's, done.

Wish there were better news or something else to consider, but that's it.

P.S. If you post once more (and I'm guessing you will ), you'll be able to see and use all of the text links in the various posts. Woo hoo!
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