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Old 10-17-2007, 03:13 PM   #181
bicker
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Originally Posted by qili
I know where my next $299 will NOT go.
Famous last words. I wonder how many times we've seen that sort of thing posting online (not just about TiVo, but really, anything) where 3-4 years later the same person (perhaps posting under another name ) is complaining about something else.
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Old 10-17-2007, 03:15 PM   #182
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Old 10-17-2007, 03:24 PM   #183
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Nah, I've never made any statements implying that "I'm leaving and never coming back..." like that. Must have me confused with someone else. I am typically pretty consistent with my hardcore, realistic perspective.
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Old 10-17-2007, 03:49 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by bicker
That's the problem. In the part of the analogy talking about McDonald's, it was NOT a figure of speech. The sense of urgency was evoked based on the fact that actual real human sickness was involved. Therefore, the analogy fails. That was the point I made.

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Old 10-17-2007, 03:59 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by bicker
Nah, I've never made any statements implying that "I'm leaving and never coming back..." like that. Must have me confused with someone else. I am typically pretty consistent with my hardcore, realistic perspective.

HEY SPOCK, IT'S CALLED A JOKE!!
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Old 10-17-2007, 04:03 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Revolutionary


Yes, I didn't mean to suggest that we don't.

I'm predicting a virtual riot when 9.2 hits wider release and people are still having cable card or 30-second skip problems, so I guess I'm trying to start calming the general TCF populous (not you in particular) down now! Adjusted expectations and all that...
Yeah. I have to tell you, if 30 second skip is still messed up after the 9.2 update I'm going to be absolutely disgusted with this whole mess. It's one thing to mess something up, but then to release a "fix" that supposedly fixes the problem only to find out it doesn't fix MY problem is really going to push me away.

I'll always try to keep TiVo as my DVR software of choice, but I'm beginning to lose my enthusiasm for the product. Hopefully once they get a working Comcast box Tivo will be more likely to stay on top of the fixes since the "customer" will no longer be "the lunatic fringe" (us) but will be Comcast (aka the "deep pockets with the big paycheck"). I'm guessing once Comcast is buttering their bread they will likely be more forthcoming with everything. Including release notes and less buggy software releases. Hopefully...
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Old 10-17-2007, 04:04 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by bicker
That's the problem. In the part of the analogy talking about McDonald's, it was NOT a figure of speech. The sense of urgency was evoked based on the fact that actual real human sickness was involved. Therefore, the analogy fails. That was the point I made.
Fair enough. But the original poster's supposition about how McDonald's and TiVo, were they both in the burger business, would handle a meat problem was still amusing.
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Old 10-17-2007, 04:15 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by bicker
That's the problem. In the part of the analogy talking about McDonald's, it was NOT a figure of speech. The sense of urgency was evoked based on the fact that actual real human sickness was involved. Therefore, the analogy fails. That was the point I made.
both McDonald's and TiVo need happy customers to sustain their business model and to make money for their shareholders.

From that point of view, not being able to please their customers and meet and exceed their expectation would doom either organization equally fast.

In that regard, the analogy is right on.
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Old 10-17-2007, 04:22 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by ToddNeedsTiVo
Fair enough. But the original poster's supposition about how McDonald's and TiVo, were they both in the burger business, would handle a meat problem was still amusing.
Mmmmm. Pickles.


What were we talking about again?
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Old 10-17-2007, 04:27 PM   #190
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My 2 cents on TiVo's silly reluctance to document bugfixes and acknowledge problems: they are costing themselves money.

When you refuse to acknowledge a problem, and leave your customers in the dark, guess what they do? They call for tech support. Each one of those calls costs TiVo money. OTOH, having a page on the website that lists the current "known problems" would reduce the call volume - not to mention the aggravation of having to spend 30 minutes on the phone with a CSR who can do nothing but tell me she doesn't, in the immortal words of Norman Chad, know squadoosh.

Making it possible to enter your TiVo serial number and check off the known problems you are encountering would be even better -- it would produce useful information (gee: all the people reporting cable-card problems have this version of the TiVo S3 motherboard, and s-cards, how interesting...) and give TiVo a list of the machines they might want to push a test version to.

Not to mention, many of those tech support calls are going to the cable companies, not to TiVo. Is it any wonder the cable companies don't like TiVo, given that TiVo-caused issues like the macroblocking and cable-card dropping are costing them millions in service call costs? I had the cable guys in 3 times trying to diagnose problems that now seem to clearly be TiVo-related, not cable-related. How much does 3 hours of cable-guy time cost? $100? $200?

Giving details on what bugs are fixed in the new versions is also a no-brainer. Why? Because if you think you fixed a bug, but people are still seeing it, you need to know. So a similar page that lists all the bugs fixed in a release, with checkboxes that let you tell TiVo that you still have a particular problem, would produce mounds of useful information.

Oh, and there's the minor matter of it being good PR...

Last edited by madoverlord : 10-17-2007 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 10-17-2007, 04:32 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by bicker
TiVo: 250 people.
Microsoft: 79,000 people.
Apple: 18,000 people
Thought it was closer to 450? Which doesn't change your point, but I thought I should contribute something to the release notes and patch cycle tangent.
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Old 10-17-2007, 05:15 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by TiVoPony
There are other goodies in the release too, features and bug fixes alike. Nope, we do not provide release notes.
Pony
I love the juxtaposition of these sentences. Can someone tell me how I will know what the goodies are, when there aren't any release notes?
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Old 10-17-2007, 05:18 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by astrohip
I love the juxtaposition of these sentences. Can someone tell me how I will know what the goodies are, when there aren't any release notes?
Wait for the folks on this forum to empirically determine what was fixed, what was not fixed, what new bugs have been introduced, and what features have been tweaked. Just like for all previous versions.

Since only new significant features are ever mentioned in the "you have a new update" message, this would seem to mean that they have to toss at least one new feature in every update, even if it is really just an urgent bug fix release. Otherwise, customers would wonder why they got this update for no apparent reason.

Last edited by CharlesH : 10-17-2007 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 10-17-2007, 05:43 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by CharlesH
Wait for the folks on this forum to empirically determine what was fixed, what was not fixed, what new bugs have been introduced, and what features have been tweaked. Just like for all previous versions.

Since only new significant features are ever mentioned in the "you have a new update" message, this would seem to mean that they have to toss at least one new feature in every update, even if it is really just an urgent bug fix release. Otherwise, customers would wonder why they got this update for no apparent reason.
That's right! Who needs an authoritative list? We've established that no software company on the face of the earth documents software changes, that it is cost-prohibitive to do so, does nothing to endear the enthusiast community to the product, and would only be utilized by 0.0001% of the overall owner population out there anyway.

It's much more efficient to let that nosy handful of us speculate and quarrel about what may or may not have been added, changed, fixed, removed, or updated.

Carry on.
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Old 10-17-2007, 05:53 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Globular
OK, before the thread gets completely hijacked, what's the word on the eSATA support? Is it for any eSATA disk? What's the maximum size? etc. etc. Pony, inquiring minds want to know! I desperately need more storage.

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#11 What is the maximum capacity supported?

The Series3 currently supports a maximum of 2TB total storage (binary). Each drive is limited to a maximum of 1TB. With the current method -- described in #1 -- you can use a 1TB eSATA drive in addition to the internal 250GB drive, for a total of 1.25TB storage. A future method should allow use of 1TB internal and 1TB eSATA drives.

Note for marketing purposes, most drive manufacturers use the decimal definitions for megabyte and terabyte. For example, the one terabyte drive sold by Hitachi is actually 1,000,000,000,000 bytes, but computer standards define 1TB as 1,099,511,627,776 bytes. Hence, the Series3 actually supports about 10% more capacity than you get with the 1TB eSATA drives now sold at retail.

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Old 10-17-2007, 06:55 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by formulaben
You have a very poor sense of humor if you think so.
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Old 10-17-2007, 06:58 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by qili
From that point of view, not being able to please their customers and meet and exceed their expectation would doom either organization equally fast. In that regard, the analogy is right on.
An analogy requires parity. My point was that the sides of the analogy were not analogous. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand -- oh wait -- yes I do: It undercuts the arguments against what I was saying. How conveeeenient.

How about instead of wasting all this bandwidth with meta-discussion, why don't we actually talk about 9.2?
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Old 10-17-2007, 07:01 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Saturn

So yea, I'm just venting because that's all I can do.
Yeah, and you've done it 7,231 times. I guess you have time to post here 100 times a day, but you can't use a speakerphone while writing all these daily posts to call Tivo. Certainly, that's your option.

Why don't you and your friends go make your own thread where you can vent all you like?

ok, I apologize for my rant. Try to stay on topic please.

-David
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Old 10-17-2007, 07:09 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by bicker
An analogy requires parity. My point was that the sides of the analogy were not analogous. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand -- oh wait -- yes I do: It undercuts the arguments against what I was saying. How conveeeenient.

How about instead of wasting all this bandwidth with meta-discussion, why don't we actually talk about 9.2?
I like this 9.2 thing. I'm glad we're back into even numbers. 9.1 was bad mojo; very ugly number.
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Old 10-17-2007, 07:14 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by bicker

How about instead of wasting all this bandwidth with meta-discussion, why don't we actually talk about 9.2?
Since it does sound like the infinite rabbit hole, why no contribute, I say.

Because that would require knowing what 9.2 does. No one knows what it does (oh, wait, outside of the unspeaking Tivo). The noisy or is that nosy rabble would like to know what it does so that they can discuss whether it does or does not do what it does.

I know it would take resources to post a change list. Hmm, I would hope that their programmers already keep such a list.

Cutting their costs by having a bug list might help avoid lots of calls.

Corporations big or small cannot alienate their customers. Yes, tivo may not be poisoning the hamburgers but they are poisoning their customers tastes.

Acknowledging a problem is not necessarily a sign of weakness but can be considered a customer friendly service.
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Old 10-17-2007, 07:19 PM   #201
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I do software development for a living, like some of you are, and I didn't come to Tivo forum to discuss Tivo's software development process, yes, they can probably do better in some areas, most companies can. But I don't care. I'm sick of dealing with software development issues on my own job as is. I come here to find out new (and hopefully) cool things about Tivo. To me the most important thing is what's fixed in 9.2, what we get out of it. I don't care how Tivo does it as long as new features are delivered and old ones don't get broken. If this thread is just about how Tivo's development and release process, then I find this thread utterly useless to me. See y'all fellas.
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Old 10-17-2007, 07:33 PM   #202
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If 9.2 fixes the picture breakup (pixelazation), and the cable cards from going stupid (said channels suddenly gone; requires restart to fix) on digital teir channels, I would be very happy. The rest is just fluff to me.
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Old 10-17-2007, 07:46 PM   #203
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Good grief, again with the animosity toward those of us who would dare to discuss TiVo's dearth of changelog information. I'm sorry encountering a discussion about software development when you're off the clock bums you out 'n all, but features and enhancements and fixes on a TiVo come about through software development.

Since we have little authoritative information about what 9.2 hopes to achieve, because TiVo will not deign to enlighten us beyond a bare minimum, we're left with speculation and venting by us eager (frustrated?) users. I find it entertaining yet informative in its own way. If you don't, let your browser do your bidding. I don't think you need to flaunt your disdain for the thread because that would be um, utterly useless.

It would be great if we learned more about the officially supported esata products and configurations. I can tell already that I'd love to have more HD capacity on my THD.

Getting reports of solid CableCARD performance improvements would do a lot to close the deal for people on the fence about S3/THD units. I don't currently have digital cable, but I'm in no hurry to upgrade while these problems persist. I can see the wasted hours of vacation if the install turns into subsequent troubleshooting visits by the cable guy.

fred2, infinite rabbit hole indeed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by yunlin12
I do software development for a living, like some of you are, and I didn't come to Tivo forum to discuss Tivo's software development process, yes, they can probably do better in some areas, most companies can. But I don't care. I'm sick of dealing with software development issues on my own job as is. I come here to find out new (and hopefully) cool things about Tivo. To me the most important thing is what's fixed in 9.2, what we get out of it. I don't care how Tivo does it as long as new features are delivered and old ones don't get broken. If this thread is just about how Tivo's development and release process, then I find this thread utterly useless to me. See y'all fellas.

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Old 10-17-2007, 08:33 PM   #204
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I've been a software engineer for over 18 years, eight years of that working at a systems vendor that routinely produced release notes for its operating system releases. I've personally written release notes for many of those releases. I daresay I know what is involved at least as well as you do.

I think the expense incurred is well worth it, given the frequency of TiVo's updates, and TiVo's relationship with its customers. Especially given that the S3/HD crowd at this moment contains a higher-than-average population of early adopters and "techie" customers.
I agree, although I'm not in the software business (just a lowly accountant). When TIVO decides to prepare an update, someone there makes the decision about what to fix. Maybe he/she decides to try to fix, let's say, ten items. Suppose the software engineers are able to fix six of then ten. So there's the list that most of us want so badly. Just release the list. No biggy.
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Old 10-17-2007, 11:23 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by bicker
You have a very poor sense of humor if you think so.
Uh, OK...so you're NOT bicker1 on another forum? Yeah, thought so...

Last edited by formulaben : 10-17-2007 at 11:31 PM.
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Old 10-17-2007, 11:28 PM   #206
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But... what about when they claim to provide a fix/feature that they don't actually deliver?

I'm thinking of the TiVoCast logos in Now Playing that were supposed to be in 8.3 but had to be postponed.
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Old 10-18-2007, 01:37 AM   #207
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eSATA

I attempted a plug and play connection tonight (I have been waiting for official support of this function versus the other option to enable the eSATA drive) and had no luck.

I have a Seagate FreeAgent Pro 500GB plugged in now. In settings (where CableCARD settings are) the external storage option displayed "Unsupported Device" versus the format hard drive scenario I was hoping for.

With only one device tested by me this seems odd that only certain models are going to be supported. I await someone else's success story because it's not coming from me.
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Old 10-18-2007, 01:55 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by quadhog
I attempted a plug and play connection tonight and had no luck.

In settings the external storage option displayed "Unsupported Device" versus the format hard drive scenario I was hoping for.
I'm having the same problem. Just posted over in the eSATA FAQ thread.
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Old 10-18-2007, 03:04 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by quadhog
I attempted a plug and play connection tonight (I have been waiting for official support of this function versus the other option to enable the eSATA drive) and had no luck.

I have a Seagate FreeAgent Pro 500GB plugged in now. In settings (where CableCARD settings are) the external storage option displayed "Unsupported Device" versus the format hard drive scenario I was hoping for.

With only one device tested by me this seems odd that only certain models are going to be supported. I await someone else's success story because it's not coming from me.
Here's the post (and my reply) Sevenpants (I'd ask about the name...but then...maybe not ) referred to when trying eSATA P&P on his TiVo HD.

quadhog, did you attempt this with a TiVo HD or an Original S3?

BTW, thanks for the posts...and welcome!
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Old 10-18-2007, 03:27 AM   #210
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IMHO it's very possible that although eSATA is listed in a new menu in v9.2.j, it's still not activated...the same way that MRV and TTG remnants can be found in previous releases without being operational. It could be activated with the rollout of the final v9.2 upgrade as well.

That existing eSATA drives are operating properly with v9.2.j is encouraging though.

However it may be that TiVo will only have one or two "supported devices" of their own which will work as plug and play models and anything else will still require a hack as they do now. Time will tell.
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