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Old 10-17-2007, 12:48 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn
None.
So in other words, chatting about it online is cheap and an easy way to vent your frustration, but you really don't feel strongly about this to make a point of it with the only people who matter.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:49 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by kmill14
Perhaps Tivo has a very valid reason for not releasing them...but you won't find out unless you keep escalating up the chain.
We already have a conduit to TiVo in this forum. Several TiVo employees read these forums. They already are hearing what we have to say. Why do we need to work through the customer service reps, who really exist to resolve specific problems and don't work to set TiVo policy?

Like the rest of us, I'm a very busy person. I don't have enough time in my life to do all the things I enjoy doing. That's a big reason why I have a TiVo. Why should I spend my precious time on an escalation quest with the TiVo CSRs to convince them to do something that makes common sense? All of a sudden, the time savings and convenience my TiVo provides has just gone out the window, and I'd be better off ditching my TiVo altogether.

8.3.1 worked just fine on my Series 3. I had absolutlely no complaints. Then TiVo dumped the craptastic 9.1 release on my system against my wishes, and doesn't even feel the need to be courteous and tell me what they've changed. This isn't "TV my way".... it's "TV TiVo's Way" and for me it's easily the worst aspect of their service.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:50 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by RoyK
No, they're selling software that makes their customer's boxes sick.
Which is an utterly meaningless sentence. Boxes don't get sick. Rather, what you're doing is trying to link a very serious issue with a very trivial issue, by using loaded, emotional language (sickness).
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:50 PM   #154
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I went from 8.1 straight to 9.2... I just got my TivoHD 4 days ago

Quote:
Originally Posted by gweempose
I'm curious. Did anyone go straight from 8.3 to 9.2? Also, is there anyone who got 9.2 that didn't use the priority software request page?

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Old 10-17-2007, 12:52 PM   #155
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Why don't you guys take this off topic banter somewhere else...
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:53 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by gibbyscott
I went from 8.1 straight to 9.2... I just got my TivoHD 4 days ago

Someone with 9.2 should test the progressive play feature for Amazon downloads and see if it actually works.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:53 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by gibbyscott
I went from 8.1 straight to 9.2... I just got my TivoHD 4 days ago
That's good news. Mine went straight from 8.1 to 9.1...I'll keep forcing updates and keep my fingers crossed.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:53 PM   #158
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All I wanna know is did 9.2 fix 30 second skip or not?
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:54 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by dolfer
Anything about a fix for the lengthy audio drops after pausing/rewinding/ff when using Dolby Digital audio???
Yeah, this is a bit much. I counted many instances and they ranged from 1 to 2.5 seconds! That's a long time (but I'm still on 9.1 though...)
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:59 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by bicker
So in other words, chatting about it online is cheap and an easy way to vent your frustration, but you really don't feel strongly about this to make a point of it with the only people who matter.
Calling a level 1 CSR is complaining to the wrong person. Even getting escalated to level 2 isn't the right person. They are given their instructions and bugging them for more information (does 9.2 fix such-and-such) isn't going to help. TiVo's decision to keep its customers in the dark about updates, bugs, and bug fixes is a corporate-level decision (that I strongly doubt will change anytime soon.)

If I could get my point across to the right people, I would.

My hope at this point is that the right TiVo employee reads these forums, but as they've already demonstrated, TiVo considers the members these forums a very small, unimportant minority of their users. The CEO of TiVo would think the same thing if I could talk directly to him/her.

So yea, I'm just venting because that's all I can do.
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:01 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Joybob
You guys are totally off topic.

When will there be a 9.2 priority page?
Historically the TiVo Priority Page has updated when they begin rolling out the final version of the latest upgrade. Since v9.2.j is in trial, it may be two to three weeks...possibly less possibly more...before v9.2 is released and the page is updated. It all depends on the feedback they get from the folks that receive the trial version.
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:05 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by bicker
It costs money, for starters. We have a dedicated Documentation Specialist on our team, who spends about two weeks for EACH major release taking the list of engineering changes implemented and bugs fixed in the release and writing Release Notes from them. If you think that this is a two minute job, then please accept that you simply don't understand what is involved.
I've been a software engineer for over 18 years, eight years of that working at a systems vendor that routinely produced release notes for its operating system releases. I've personally written release notes for many of those releases. I daresay I know what is involved at least as well as you do.

I think the expense incurred is well worth it, given the frequency of TiVo's updates, and TiVo's relationship with its customers. Especially given that the S3/HD crowd at this moment contains a higher-than-average population of early adopters and "techie" customers.
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:06 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker
Which is an utterly meaningless sentence. Boxes don't get sick. Rather, what you're doing is trying to link a very serious issue with a very trivial issue, by using loaded, emotional language (sickness).
It's a figure of speech! "My computer is sick. I think I need to reinstall Windows." Suddenly this type of usage is offensive to people with legitimate illnesses? Come on! People make such anthropomorphisms all the time.
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:12 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mportuesi
I've been a software engineer for over 18 years, eight years of that working at a systems vendor that routinely produced release notes for its operating system releases. I've personally written release notes for many of those releases. I daresay I know what is involved at least as well as you do.

I think the expense incurred is well worth it, given the frequency of TiVo's updates, and TiVo's relationship with its customers. Especially given that the S3/HD crowd at this moment contains a higher-than-average population of early adopters and "techie" customers.
Precisely. It just seems like they could be a bit more forthcoming with technical information to appease their most eager fans. That doesn't seem like it would be a burden since I'm sure they have internal documentation to that effect anyway. Couldn't that be cleaned up or summarized for outsider consumption and posted? Of course it could. Good grief, I don't want the source code; just a few sentences describing the changes!

That is typically the case for some dude working solo in his basement on a popular shareware/freeware program that he developed all the way up to ubiquitous products like Windows and iPods.

You'd think acknowledging what a certain update is intended to do would reduce their call volumes and get people off their back a little.

It's absurd to get excoriated for mentioning some of these things around here.
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:13 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by richsadams
Well...not entirely true. Quoting from TiVoPony's earlier post...

(Bold mine)

The question is...will these "bug fixes" fix everything people are complaining about? Let's keep our fingers crossed.

Here is a list of the bugs that have been reportedly fixed by v9.2.j so far.
That doesn't change the effect of my post, actually. Pony only said "bug fixes;" he didn't say what bugs were fixed. Perhaps bugs that 1% of subscribers were experiencing prior to 9.1. Without notes, we don't know. I was trying to get folks ready for the distinct possibility that nothing in 9.2 is intended to fix any behaviors that may or may not have been brought on by 9.1.

Also, it could be entirely coincidence that those who are reporting various bugs as "fixed" are no longer experiencing problems. I don't have any of the bugs on that list with my S3; the same "randomness" factor could acount for the miraculous disappearance of the problems for 1 or 2 users. Only time (or release notes) will tell.
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:15 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by bicker
I don't need to. TiVo's three competitors have all ceased production of their competitive products.
Anyone notify the cable and satellite companies?
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:17 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by TiVoPony
There are other goodies in the release too, features and bug fixes alike. Nope, we do not provide release notes. Sorry if that bothers some, but trust that the average TiVo subscriber is not into the same level of detail as folks here on the forum. We do what we can, but detailed release notes are not on the horizon. Beat the horse, but don't beat the Pony.
Fine. I'll beat the horse.

While I appreciate getting a bit of information about product updates, lowering the amount of available information to a level that can be digested by every customer is lame. I don't care what is good enough for the average subscriber. If I was average, I'd be...well...average. What's the point of that? I shouldn't have to scour forums and read dozens of posts about each update trying to determine WTF was changed. That's stupid.

COMMUNICATE WITH YOUR CUSTOMERS

Provide a list of bug fixes.
Provide a list of new features.

It's not that hard. I'm not asking for more than bullet points.

- Fixed pixelation problems with second cable card.
- Fixed menu navigation problem experienced when returning from episode detail to program list.

Simple lists. Each of the items must have a short summary in the engineering documents. Just take the summaries and copy them to a list. Post the list on your website, and provide a link to the list under service and support.

What does Tivo have to gain by withholding this information from their customers?
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:18 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by mportuesi

I think the expense incurred is well worth it, given the frequency of TiVo's updates, and TiVo's relationship with its customers. Especially given that the S3/HD crowd at this moment contains a higher-than-average population of early adopters and "techie" customers.

How do you define the value Tivo gets out of doing it or not? It is obviously worth it for you the fringe customer, but what does Tivo get? If you say "a happy customer", I say BS. They released a bad version with 9.1, and if it came with release notes, guess what...people would still be unhappy.


I understand nobody likes to go through escalation hell, but if you really want to get answers, this isn't the place for it. You're either going to drive yourself mad, get over it, stew a long time then get over it, or you're going to rant and rave for as long as it takes on the phone with Tivo. Take your pick.
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:26 PM   #169
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We do what we can, but detailed release notes are not on the horizon.
that's sounds like "my way or highway".

I know where my next $299 will NOT go.
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:26 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Revolutionary
That doesn't change the effect of my post, actually. Pony only said "bug fixes;" he didn't say what bugs were fixed. Perhaps bugs that 1% of subscribers were experiencing prior to 9.1. Without notes, we don't know. I was trying to get folks ready for the distinct possibility that nothing in 9.2 is intended to fix any behaviors that may or may not have been brought on by 9.1.

Also, it could be entirely coincidence that those who are reporting various bugs as "fixed" are no longer experiencing problems. I don't have any of the bugs on that list with my S3; the same "randomness" factor could acount for the miraculous disappearance of the problems for 1 or 2 users. Only time (or release notes) will tell.
So we agree!
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:26 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by kmill14
How do you define the value Tivo gets out of doing it or not? It is obviously worth it for you the fringe customer,
Right now, I'll bet most S3 and HD owners are "fringe customers" and this update is being directed solely at them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmill14
but what does Tivo get? If you say "a happy customer", I say BS. They released a bad version with 9.1, and if it came with release notes, guess what...people would still be unhappy.
Perhaps not as unhappy as they were before.

I know that I really appreciate the community-written release note threads that appear here on TCF upon each release. I really like the summary of what changed, what's better, what's worse, and I'm thankful for the people who take the time to produce those lists. But those notes are checklist items that any consumer electronics vendor should make available to interested parties.

Believe it or not, I know plenty of geeks who don't own TiVo's, and this kind of feedback would make it easier for me to sell them on TiVo's service.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmill14
I understand nobody likes to go through escalation hell, but if you really want to get answers, this isn't the place for it. You're either going to drive yourself mad, get over it, stew a long time then get over it, or you're going to rant and rave for as long as it takes on the phone with Tivo. Take your pick.
Both Saturn and I have pointed out that the CSR organization is not intended to be a feedback mechanism for decisions regarding company policy. It's a very focused call center with people staffed to resolve specific operational issues (defective equipment, billing, etc) as quick as possible. Calling and badgering CSR staff over this issue is a waste of everyone's time.
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:28 PM   #172
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People simply want information about something that is not working/flowing/going smoothly and is out of their control. What is perhaps the most infuriating thing about airline travel hassles? The lack of timely, accurate information about the disruption that tells you what's going to happen next to get you on your way to Grandma's house. Alright, alright, another tangent within a larger tangent. I beg forgiveness.

Yes, it's just television, but people value their entertainment tools and want them to function as advertised.
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:55 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by richsadams
So we agree!


Yes, I didn't mean to suggest that we don't.

I'm predicting a virtual riot when 9.2 hits wider release and people are still having cable card or 30-second skip problems, so I guess I'm trying to start calming the general TCF populous (not you in particular) down now! Adjusted expectations and all that...
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Old 10-17-2007, 02:06 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by qili
that's sounds like "my way or highway".

I know where my next $299 will NOT go.
I can't believe someone would make a purchase decision on the lack of release notes

Which competitors provide them? Mot? SA? Comcast?
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Old 10-17-2007, 02:07 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Revolutionary


Yes, I didn't mean to suggest that we don't.

I'm predicting a virtual riot when 9.2 hits wider release and people are still having cable card or 30-second skip problems, so I guess I'm trying to start calming the general TCF populous (not you in particular) down now! Adjusted expectations and all that...

I honestly think that the 9.1 release was purposely a stepping stone to the 9.2 release. Bugs aside, I think there is a lot going on with version 9, and they did not want to rush into the entire feature-set until they felt they were ready.

Hopefully the bug fixes are not replaced by a greater number of new bugs, but with these new features Pony has hinted at, there will certainly be new bugs to deal with.
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Old 10-17-2007, 02:54 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Revolutionary


Yes, I didn't mean to suggest that we don't.

I'm predicting a virtual riot when 9.2 hits wider release and people are still having cable card or 30-second skip problems, so I guess I'm trying to start calming the general TCF populous (not you in particular) down now! Adjusted expectations and all that...
Understood. We noticed a bit more macroblocking and a couple of audio dropouts on our S3...nothing on the S2's and certainly nothing like a lot of folks are experiencing after the v9.1 upgrade.

I'm a bit more optimistic as there were bugs w/v8.1 that were fixed w/v8.3 and based on the early posts it looks like they're addressing the latest v9.1 bugs with v9.1.j. They also did a pretty good job of fixing the bugs that the early THD software had as well. But it remains to be seen if they catch everything with the latest upgrade once it rolls out.

Knock on wood (touching head).
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Old 10-17-2007, 03:05 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by mportuesi
I think the expense incurred is well worth it
Worth it to whom?

To Us? You bet... as long as it doesn't increase our price or makes releases take longer.

To TiVo? Evidently not, and your 18 years of experience plus my 22 years of experience doesn't trump TiVo's managers' judgment in that regard.

I think you're perceptions of "us" are off-kilter.
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Old 10-17-2007, 03:08 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by ToddNeedsTiVo
It's a figure of speech!
That's the problem. In the part of the analogy talking about McDonald's, it was NOT a figure of speech. The sense of urgency was evoked based on the fact that actual real human sickness was involved. Therefore, the analogy fails. That was the point I made.
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Old 10-17-2007, 03:09 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Koan
Anyone notify the cable and satellite companies?
They already know. That's why several of them are working WITH TiVo.
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Old 10-17-2007, 03:11 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by kmill14
How do you define the value Tivo gets out of doing it or not? It is obviously worth it for you the fringe customer, but what does Tivo get? If you say "a happy customer", I say BS. They released a bad version with 9.1, and if it came with release notes, guess what...people would still be unhappy.
Indeed, and they would have even more fuel for their fire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmill14
I understand nobody likes to go through escalation hell, but if you really want to get answers, this isn't the place for it. You're either going to drive yourself mad, get over it, stew a long time then get over it, or you're going to rant and rave for as long as it takes on the phone with Tivo. Take your pick.

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