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Old 10-17-2007, 11:12 AM   #121
sinanju
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn
To reiterate the Microsoft argument, even Microsoft tells us what's in each update.
No, it doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn
Those of us who want to can block the updates, delay their install, install at our leisure, and go get details on every single update.
No, you can't.


http://blog.washingtonpost.com/secur...date_come.html

And that isn't the first, nor is it the only stealth update Microsoft has pushed.

Sorry... you're just wrong. Like I said, MSFT is not the example folks seem to think it is.
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Old 10-17-2007, 11:26 AM   #122
Saturn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinanju
No, it doesn't.



No, you can't.


http://blog.washingtonpost.com/secur...date_come.html

And that isn't the first, nor is it the only stealth update Microsoft has pushed.

Sorry... you're just wrong. Like I said, MSFT is not the example folks seem to think it is.
Ok, for 99% of the updates Microsoft releases, you can get detailed information. Microsoft is facing the consequences of their stealth update right now.

I didn't say Microsoft was perfect, but certainly closer to ideal than what TiVo does.
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Old 10-17-2007, 11:35 AM   #123
sinanju
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn
Ok, for 99% of the updates Microsoft releases, you can get detailed information.
For some unknown percentage of updates Microsoft releases, you get some amount of information that Microsoft decides that you need. Another unknown percentage of updates that Microsoft releases have no detail at all. A further unknown percentage of critical updates you need are held back on a request-only basis and often cost money.

But, don't let facts get in the way of a good whinge.
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Old 10-17-2007, 11:38 AM   #124
Joybob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinanju
For some unknown percentage of updates Microsoft releases, you get some amount of information that Microsoft decides that you need. Another unknown percentage of updates that Microsoft releases have no detail at all. A further unknown percentage of critical updates you need are held back on a request-only basis and often cost money.

But, don't let facts get in the way of a good whinge.
You guys are totally off topic.

When will there be a 9.2 priority page?
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Old 10-17-2007, 11:44 AM   #125
qili
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinanju
For some unknown percentage of updates Microsoft releases, you get some amount of information that Microsoft decides that you need.
well, at least there is something from microsoft. That's infinitely better than nothing from TiVo.
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Old 10-17-2007, 11:44 AM   #126
Saturn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinanju
For some unknown percentage of updates Microsoft releases, you get some amount of information that Microsoft decides that you need. Another unknown percentage of updates that Microsoft releases have no detail at all. A further unknown percentage of critical updates you need are held back on a request-only basis and often cost money.

But, don't let facts get in the way of a good whinge.
Now you're just wrong. Requesting a hotfix from microsoft doesn't cost money. Yes, you need to call in, but if you call in specifically stating you are calling to get a particular hotfix, you don't need to provide any payment information. I've done it.

But you know, facts and all that.

But rather than arguing what Microsoft does and does not do, how about what TiVo SHOULD be doing?
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Old 10-17-2007, 11:45 AM   #127
Saturn
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Originally Posted by qili
well, at least there is something from microsoft. That's infinitely better than nothing from TiVo.
Exactly my point.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:00 PM   #128
carroca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joybob
When will there be a 9.2 priority page?
As 9.2 is only for S3/THD boxes, it might not get a priority page at all since the number of these units is still probably small enough that the update can be sent to all of them within a short period of time. They've done it this way in the past for S3/THD-only updates. I am however hoping that this update will be extended to S2 boxes soon because they are not immune to the bugs introduced in 9.1 and even non-techies such as my wife are annoyed by them so there is a large demand for fixes from the huge S2 user-base.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:10 PM   #129
Revolutionary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carroca
As 9.2 is only for S3/THD boxes, it might not get a priority page at all since the number of these units is still probably small enough that the update can be sent to all of them within a short period of time. They've done it this way in the past for S3/THD-only updates. I am however hoping that this update will be extended to S2 boxes soon because they are not immune to the bugs introduced in 9.1 and even non-techies such as my wife are annoyed by them so there is a large demand for fixes from the huge S2 user-base.
Keep in mind, though, that its still not clear whether 9.2 is intended to fix any bugs at all. It may be a planned launch intended to bring better Unbox integration and eSATA support. The n so far is too small for us to have a clear understanding of what is in this release.

Bottom line: be prepared for it to not fix your bugs, because it might not.
__________________
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:30 PM   #130
bicker
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Originally Posted by RoyK
If McDonald's sold hamburgers that make a few of their customers sick, believe me they would quickly be spending millions to communicate with their customers what they are doing about the problem.
TiVo is not selling hamburgers that make their customers sick. Rather, some of their customers are making up a sickness. TiVos aren't ingested, and any impact they have on your body is self-inflicted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyK
Oh, and by the way McDonald's makes detailed info on the contents of their products easily available on their website.
No question that McDonald's is a first-rate operation. What I wrote was that the communication challenges that TiVo faces is MORE LIKE the communications challenges faced by McDonald's than it is like that faces by B2B contracts. I hope that clears up your confusion.

McDonald's handles the challenges better than TiVo, as well they should since they're 1800 TIMES LARGER than TiVo.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:31 PM   #131
bicker
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Originally Posted by qili
really? what software do you work on?

I just wanted to make sure that I am not within 10 ft of your software.

I don't work in the B2C arena, which is what we were talking about.

Please pay attention!
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:37 PM   #132
bicker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn
To reiterate the Microsoft argument, even Microsoft tells us what's in each update.
TiVo: Has lost money every quarter except one during its entire history.
Microsoft: Consistently very profitable.

Here's another relevant datum:

TiVo: 250 people.
Microsoft: 79,000 people.

There is no question in my mind that Microsoft is a top-notch software provider, among the best in the world, despite what a lot of people would like others to believe. TiVo's strength has always been their unique product (no one else provides anything comparable). If TiVo had competition, or were the size of Microsoft, I bet it would be reasonable to expect better service from them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn
Need more examples? iTunes.
Apple: 18,000 people
Apple: 9.97% profit margin
Apple: $19 Billion revenue per year
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:49 PM   #133
Saturn
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Originally Posted by bicker
There is no question in my mind that Microsoft is a top-notch software provider, among the best in the world, despite what a lot of people would like others to believe. TiVo's strength has always been their unique product (no one else provides anything comparable). If TiVo had competition, or were the size of Microsoft, I bet it would be reasonable to expect better service from them.
I can't tell if you're making excuses for TiVo or agreeing with me.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:54 PM   #134
qili
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker
I don't work in the B2C arena, which is what we were talking about.
I didn't say that my desire to stay away from your piece of software is limited to any particular area.

Please pay attention!
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:54 PM   #135
mportuesi
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This is what I meant earlier in this thread when I said it's a crime in this forum to suggest that TiVo better communicate with its customers. This same discussion comparing Tivo with Microsoft, Apple, et al. happened in the last thread, with the same results. Everyone who dares criticize TiVo is run out of town.

I want to know how putting together a set of release notes for the "techie" subset of the TiVo user community hurts *anyone*. Especially since the "techies" in this forum are the people who are most loyal to TiVo and have done the most to evangelize TiVo through word-of-mouth. If you were TiVo, wouldn't you want to do just a little bit extra to make them happy?
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:56 PM   #136
qili
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker
TiVo's strength has always been their unique product (no one else provides anything comparable). If TiVo had competition, or were the size of Microsoft, I bet it would be reasonable to expect better service from them.
could you please check in with TiVo to confirm the "fact" that TiVo didn't have competition?

I am sure they would vehemently disagree with you.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:57 PM   #137
qili
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Originally Posted by mportuesi
If you were TiVo, wouldn't you want to do just a little bit extra to make them happy?
Yes, if you assume that TiVo is rational, which may not be true.
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:06 PM   #138
sinanju
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mportuesi
This is what I meant earlier in this thread when I said it's a crime in this forum to suggest that TiVo better communicate with its customers. This same discussion comparing Tivo with Microsoft, Apple, et al. happened in the last thread, with the same results. Everyone who dares criticize TiVo is run out of town.
Personally, I never said that TiVo shouldn't publish release notes. In fact, I wish they would.

My only point, and I stick by that point, is that MSFT is a seriously bad example of how you would want TiVo to behave with respect to updates.
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:08 PM   #139
kmill14
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So for those who want release notes published somewhere, what answer was generated from your last call to tech support asking for this and when did you make that call?
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:13 PM   #140
Monty2_2001
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My S3 is still 8.3.1-01-2-648. Sure seems that the rollouts lately are slooowwwww and non inclusive.
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:14 PM   #141
rodalpho
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Count yourself lucky. You don't want 9.1. Hopefully you'll skip right to 9.2.
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:16 PM   #142
Saturn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinanju
Personally, I never said that TiVo shouldn't publish release notes. In fact, I wish they would.

My only point, and I stick by that point, is that MSFT is a seriously bad example of how you would want TiVo to behave with respect to updates.
Personally, I think the way Microsoft handles updates would be 10x better than how TiVo handles them. No, Microsoft isn't perfect either, but it is at least a decent direction for TiVo to head.

Microsoft:
1. You can go get the updates from the web site semi-automatically (windows update) manually (for corporate use) or automatically have them pushed to your computer.
2. Once pushed, you can choose to install them now or later, automatically or manually.
3. Each update is associated with a knowledgebase article describing at least vaguely what it updates and why.
4. You can uninstall updates if they cause a problem for you.
5. They occasionally push an update without the knowledge or consent of the user and are being torn a new one for it.
6. There are a few updates that must be requested manually, for a while, if you determine that you need such an update. You must call into Microsoft for these updates and then they are e-mailed to you free of charge. These updates almost always are turned into general release updates or rolled into the next service pack once they are more thoroughly tested.

TiVo
1. You get the update when you get it.
2. You can sign up for a priority page once general rollout begins, which may speed your update by a week or two.
3. You can't opt out of an update.
4. The update only contains a note on new features, any bug fixes must be derived by the community.
5. Calling to check on the status of a bug is an effort in futility with level 1 CSRs that claim you're the first one to report it, and level 2 CSRs that, after prodding, admit there's an issue, and update may or may not be coming and they can't make any claims on what software verisons may or may not fix which bugs.
6. They routinely push updates without the consent of the user, provide no way to revert, and aren't forthcoming with any information on bugs when they are inadvertantly introduced nor when they are fixed or will be fixed.
7. You may randomly be selected to test a pre-release version to "to measure the impact on the call centers."

Last edited by Saturn : 10-17-2007 at 01:24 PM.
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:23 PM   #143
kmill14
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Saturn, you could go on all day long on this board I'm sure. How many calls have you made to Tivo today to discuss this issue?
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:27 PM   #144
Saturn
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Originally Posted by kmill14
Saturn, you could go on all day long on this board I'm sure. How many calls have you made to Tivo today to discuss this issue?
None. I don't have the patience to deal with level 1 CSRs that refuse to escalate issues unless poked and prodded repeatidly. What purpose would calling in serve? I already know TiVo's official response.
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:27 PM   #145
richsadams
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionary
Keep in mind, though, that its still not clear whether 9.2 is intended to fix any bugs at all. It may be a planned launch intended to bring better Unbox integration and eSATA support. The n so far is too small for us to have a clear understanding of what is in this release.

Bottom line: be prepared for it to not fix your bugs, because it might not.
Well...not entirely true. Quoting from TiVoPony's earlier post...

Quote:
There are other goodies in the release too, features and bug fixes alike.
(Bold mine)

The question is...will these "bug fixes" fix everything people are complaining about? Let's keep our fingers crossed.

Here is a list of the bugs that have been reportedly fixed by v9.2.j so far.
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:35 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker
TiVo is not selling hamburgers that make their customers sick. Rather, some of their customers are making up a sickness. TiVos aren't ingested, and any impact they have on your body is self-inflicted.
No, they're selling software that makes their customer's boxes sick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker
No question that McDonald's is a first-rate operation. What I wrote was that the communication challenges that TiVo faces is MORE LIKE the communications challenges faced by McDonald's than it is like that faces by B2B contracts. I hope that clears up your confusion.
I'm not at all confused.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker
McDonald's handles the challenges better than TiVo, as well they should since they're 1800 TIMES LARGER than TiVo.
McDonald's got to be that big by the product they sell, how they sell it, and how they handle the challanges.
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:36 PM   #147
bicker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn
I can't tell if you're making excuses for TiVo or agreeing with me.
Neither.
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:36 PM   #148
kmill14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn
None. I don't have the patience to deal with level 1 CSRs that refuse to escalate issues unless poked and prodded repeatidly. What purpose would calling in serve? I already know TiVo's official response.

Who knows why Tivo doesn't produce release notes. It doesn't seem like a big deal to me. I can tell you this though...its doubtful they will react to rants on a message board unless they feel it is absolutely necessary. If you are going to rant on a message board and continue to use their product, they won't lose sleep. But if you are going to drop Tivo for "name your provider here"'s product, then they would perk up more.

However, while this board probably gets a lot of anonymous traffic from the customer base, its only a small portion that is the vocal part and wants to change the world. Thats what they think I am sure.

All that said, I think release notes is a nice thing to do....DTV does it (through non-employees it seems) on dbstalk, but at least they do it.

Perhaps Tivo has a very valid reason for not releasing them...but you won't find out unless you keep escalating up the chain.
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:44 PM   #149
bicker
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Originally Posted by mportuesi
This is what I meant earlier in this thread when I said it's a crime in this forum to suggest that TiVo better communicate with its customers.
I think you're missing the point. No one is saying it is a crime to suggest that. Rather, there is simply no foundation to expect it. BIG difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mportuesi
I want to know how putting together a set of release notes for the "techie" subset of the TiVo user community hurts *anyone*.
It costs money, for starters. We have a dedicated Documentation Specialist on our team, who spends about two weeks for EACH major release taking the list of engineering changes implemented and bugs fixed in the release and writing Release Notes from them. If you think that this is a two minute job, then please accept that you simply don't understand what is involved.
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:45 PM   #150
bicker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qili
could you please check in with TiVo to confirm the "fact" that TiVo didn't have competition?
I don't need to. TiVo's three competitors have all ceased production of their competitive products.
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