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Old 09-08-2007, 06:20 PM   #181
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From the trade show floor at CEDIA yesterday regarding eSATA:

I spoke with someone at the TiVo booth about eSATA and their response was that it was ready to go, they were holding off till they had a solution where they could confirm that the external drives would be suitable for DVR use. I'm not sure if this means that you would need to purchase direct from TiVo or what, but the main concern expressed to me was that they were worried about non-DVR rated hard drives failing resulting in the loss of recorded shows, something they were not at all comfortable with. I tried to get them to elaborate more but that was the end of the conversation.
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Old 09-08-2007, 07:17 PM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfhub
Looking at what they are trying to protect against (multiple copies viewed in multiple locations) I don't see any reason why they would object to a lazy deletion method involving marked non-useable. What are they losing by allowing that? You seem to have a strong opinion that this would bring down the whole house of cards if this was allowed?
Again, we'll have to agree to disagree. Remember that Copy One Generation is a paranoid attempt to keep people from creating endless copies of a single recording of "high value" cable content, while allowing them to keep a single copy. The people who created this agreement (the cable industry) had no motive to allow the use that you describe and had they intended it they would have explicitly detailed it in the agreement. They're not trying to be as flexible as possible, just to give people the minimum acceptable recording capability. Affective management of the existence of unlimited copies, only one allowed to be "usable" at any time, would be hugely difficult to acheive and ripe for potential abuse.
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Old 09-08-2007, 07:33 PM   #183
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Actually I put in a feature request years ago that TiVo allow a move function. I hated MRVing a file and watching it and then having to remember to physically go back to the other TiVo and delete it if need be. ...


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Old 09-08-2007, 08:43 PM   #184
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Aindik,

I do beleive in the first sentance I did say Only work with composite video/Audio in. My apologies for forgetting about S-Video. But I do understand what you were saying and I thought I had mentioned that. However, in Dallas area, DVR's will be the only STB available after January 1st, 2010. So wonder how the connections will be after that?

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Old 09-08-2007, 08:56 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by rodalpho
By the time that eventually happens, technology will have caught up with speed requirements, and you'll be able to buy a $40 chip to encode analog HD video to mpeg-4 in realtime. And then we won't have to worry about satisfying CableLABs or cablecards or CCI or DRM or really any of this obscenely anti-consumer garbage. We'll just record the analog hole and tell the copyright holders to go stuff themselves.
Maybe so... but my point being is that On February 17th, 2009 ANALOG OTA will no longer exist. (In the USA)

In Dallas on or about Jan 1st, 2010, analog Cable will no longer exist. Other cities such as Chicago will beat Dallas to that punch. Other cities will follow Dallas soon after.

So this $40 chip that you speak of that will encode analog to Mpg-4 will have no analog signals to encode in real time.

Now of course if you have a Cable Co supplied DVR or STB. (After 2010 Dallas TWC will only offer DVR's as STB's) You will be able to get an analog signal from those boxes in the form of a Composite or S-Video interface. Although those interfaces don't and will not provide a true HD signal.

Just like Blu-ray and HD-DVD movies/players can limit content being piped out "Analog" cables. The same will soon apply to Cable Co's DVR's.

Their are several blu-ray movies that if you use componet video instead of HDMI, the movie will limit resolution to 720p and not allow 1080i viewing via Component cables.

Analog Television via OTA or even cable will be distant thought in the past by 2012.

TGC
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Old 09-08-2007, 09:01 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyts
You misunderstand "Copy One Generation".
Thanks for the correction and elaboration. So does 0x03 mean that it has to be deleted after an hour or something like that? Technically, ALL streams are recorded on the TiVo before you see them, even if it's just the 30-minute live buffer.
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Old 09-08-2007, 09:09 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by CharlesH
Thanks for the correction and elaboration. So does 0x03 mean that it has to be deleted after an hour or something like that? Technically, ALL streams are recorded on the TiVo before you see them, even if it's just the 30-minute live buffer.
I found this:
The four levels of copy protection are:
  • 0x00 = Copy Freely
  • 0x01 = No More Copies
  • 0x02 = Copy One Time
  • 0x03 = Copy Never

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Old 09-08-2007, 09:32 PM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesH
Thanks for the correction and elaboration. So does 0x03 mean that it has to be deleted after an hour or something like that? Technically, ALL streams are recorded on the TiVo before you see them, even if it's just the 30-minute live buffer.
Copy Never protection means that you can't make a permanent copy of it. It does allow DVRs to make an up-to-90-minute-long trick-play buffer of it, so long as it's flushed completely on any channel change.

Use of Copy Never on anything other than Pay-Per-View and (Pay-Per-Viewing-Period) Video On Demand is a violation of FCC regs.
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Old 09-08-2007, 09:41 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by TexasGrillChef
Their are several blu-ray movies that if you use componet video instead of HDMI, the movie will limit resolution to 720p and not allow 1080i viewing via Component cables.
Which movies are those? There's a mechanism in AACS (the copy protection system used on Blu-ray and HD DVD discs) called the "Image Constraint Token"; if the ICT is asserted, rendering of the content is constrained to no more than one quarter 1920x1080 (i.e., 960x540) when displayed over analog component video. All of the movie studios have sworn off use of the ICT for the present. In any case, the AACS licensing requires that any release which uses it be clearly labelled, so that people who aren't using HDMI can avoid buying them. (There's a rumor that multiple studios agreed amongst themselves to hold off on using it until 2010 or 2012).

I was unaware that anyone had used the ICT. Which films are you talking about?
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Old 09-08-2007, 10:02 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by TexasGrillChef
Aindik,

I do beleive in the first sentance I did say Only work with composite video/Audio in. My apologies for forgetting about S-Video. But I do understand what you were saying and I thought I had mentioned that. However, in Dallas area, DVR's will be the only STB available after January 1st, 2010. So wonder how the connections will be after that?

TGC
If they want it to work with older TVs, it will have to support older outputs. Though, at that point, it doesn't really makes sense to connect an S2 to a cable company DVR.
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Old 09-08-2007, 11:38 PM   #191
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Nobody has used the ICT. All blu-ray/HD-DVD content will play at full resolution over component cables. All cable content too.

When I speak of the analog hole, I'm referring to component cables out of a cable box. Basically like the old S1/S2 boxes, except it'll work with HD too. It's the only likely solution.

What really sticks in my craw is that all of this content is freely downloadable on bittorrent. That's illegal but inherently unstoppable. The content creators need to stop living in 1996 and look for new ways to monetize their properties, because treating their paying customers like criminals is not a long term strategy likely to be successful.
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Old 09-09-2007, 06:30 AM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneagle
I found this:
The four levels of copy protection are:
  • 0x00 = Copy Freely
  • 0x01 = No More Copies
  • 0x02 = Copy One Time
  • 0x03 = Copy Never
Thanks for this summary. I keep hearing different interpretations. To recap this in terms of Tivo functionality, I assume that this means:

00 - Full functionality, no restrictions
01 - Original copy on receiving tivo is all you'll get. No TTG or MRV
02 - TTG & MRV will work, but the second copy will be marked 0x01
03 - restricted viewing (90 minutes) on original copy

Does that sound right?
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Old 09-09-2007, 06:49 AM   #193
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That's not my understanding from TiVoPony's postings... rather, I thought his messages indicated:

00 - Full functionality, no restrictions
01 - Original copy on receiving tivo is all you'll get. No TTG or MRV.
02 - Original copy on receiving tivo is all you'll get. No TTG or MRV.
03 - restricted viewing (90 minutes) on original copy
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Old 09-09-2007, 12:39 PM   #194
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Concur with Bicker. What I took TiVo's response to be was TTG, MRV, etc. (for this release) would work on CCI=0x00 content, but not non-zero CCI content. It is a separate discussion what the CCI flags would really allow and that is likely a discussion that would delay TTG, MRV, etc. even longer.
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Old 09-09-2007, 12:46 PM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasGrillChef
...
In Dallas on or about Jan 1st, 2010, analog Cable will no longer exist. Other cities such as Chicago will beat Dallas to that punch. Other cities will follow Dallas soon after.
TGC - Where do you get your info on TWC Dallas plans? Any idea how much SDV plays into this picture? I assume they'll recover a lot of bandwidth from dropping the analogs but not sure what that means regarding SDV and all the new HD content / channels coming available. I also understand that, even in Chicago, they still have the networks on analog.
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Old 09-09-2007, 02:37 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by sfhub
Concur with Bicker. What I took TiVo's response to be was TTG, MRV, etc. (for this release) would work on CCI=0x00 content, but not non-zero CCI content.
I think so, too.

Quote:
It is a separate discussion what the CCI flags would really allow and that is likely a discussion that would delay TTG, MRV, etc. even longer.
Yes, I'd like to thank TiVo for releasing it as things stand. Although I know that the copy protection issue will affect me personally, I'll take whatever I can get for now.

If the content providers really are not requiring that the cable companies protect their channels with CCI=0x02, then ideally I hope TiVo can help us in some way to get our cable companies to stop using that flag.
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Old 09-09-2007, 06:05 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Brainiac 5
IIf the content providers really are not requiring that the cable companies protect their channels with CCI=0x02, then ideally I hope TiVo can help us in some way to get our cable companies to stop using that flag.
This is another example of where the cable companies really aren't going to try fix an issue unless it adversely effects THEIR products. AFAIK, cable company DVRs don't support anything like MRV or TTG, so labeling everything other than "Basic" cable as CCI=0x02, and PPV as 0x03, is legal, is at least as strong as desired by the content providers, and doesn't hurt the cable company. Unless a provider had a reason for specifically wanting their content to be Copy Freely.
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Old 09-09-2007, 06:46 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by CharlesH
This is another example of where the cable companies really aren't going to try fix an issue unless it adversely effects THEIR products. AFAIK, cable company DVRs don't support anything like MRV or TTG, so labeling everything other than "Basic" cable as CCI=0x02, and PPV as 0x03, is legal, is at least as strong as desired by the content providers, and doesn't hurt the cable company. Unless a provider had a reason for specifically wanting their content to be Copy Freely.
Actually for Motorola DVRs it's affected users for the last few years who use the firewire output to extract recordings to a PC. The same issue applies there - any non-zero CCI setting renders the firewire output useless for PC extraction purposes. There is a huge thread on this in AVS Forums:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=403695
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Old 09-09-2007, 07:03 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by CharlesH
This is another example of where the cable companies really aren't going to try fix an issue unless it adversely effects THEIR products. AFAIK, cable company DVRs don't support anything like MRV or TTG, so labeling everything other than "Basic" cable as CCI=0x02, and PPV as 0x03, is legal, is at least as strong as desired by the content providers, and doesn't hurt the cable company. Unless a provider had a reason for specifically wanting their content to be Copy Freely.
http://www.onlinereporter.com/articl...rticle_id=7477
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Old 09-09-2007, 07:09 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by CharlesH
This is another example of where the cable companies really aren't going to try fix an issue unless it adversely effects THEIR products. AFAIK, cable company DVRs don't support anything like MRV or TTG, so labeling everything other than "Basic" cable as CCI=0x02, and PPV as 0x03, is legal, is at least as strong as desired by the content providers, and doesn't hurt the cable company. Unless a provider had a reason for specifically wanting their content to be Copy Freely.
They can be pressured into making the change though. in my area every channel except the OTA channels was tagged as 0x02. This made every recording on my S3 show as copy restricted in the program info screen. I contacted the cable company (with a CC to the BPU) telling them that they were flagging Cable in the classroom programs, who producers specifically give permission to make copies, as copy prohibited. A short time later all the channels except premiums were flipped to 0x00 (with the occasional mis-marked program here and there). I don't know if it was because of my letter or not, but cable companies will make changes if backed into a corner.
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Old 09-09-2007, 07:19 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by sfhub
It uses MoCA for streaming the video over the same coax that delivers the 'live' content, doesn't mean they've addressed the firewire issue.
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Old 09-09-2007, 07:39 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by TexasGrillChef
Well just keep in mind.

At least for dallas... After Jan 1, 2010. S2 boxes will only work with composite video/audio in.

Why?

Because on Feb 17th, 2009 All OTA will go ATSC Digital. So the Tuners in S2 boxes will no longer work.

On Jan 1st, 2010. TWC in Dallas will DROP all support for ANALOG cable and switch to 100% digital cable.
So?? When they do this, they will give you a STB and your S2 will still work just fine..
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Old 09-09-2007, 08:40 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by stevereis
TGC - Where do you get your info on TWC Dallas plans? Any idea how much SDV plays into this picture? I assume they'll recover a lot of bandwidth from dropping the analogs but not sure what that means regarding SDV and all the new HD content / channels coming available. I also understand that, even in Chicago, they still have the networks on analog.

I have a friend who works in the managment area in the Irving TWC office.

I COULD BE WRONG.... All of my information is based on conversations on that I had with this person about what upgrades TWC was doing to their system in the next few years & the direction TWC was wishing to take in the DFW market.

I had discussed with them about the rumors of Chicago dumping analog cable, DVR's, Tivo's etc... This person claimed that if TWC could drop their analog cable support. (DVR's & STB's would still have analog out) that this would free up bandwidth that could be used for additional channels. They also mentioned a few other insignificant excuses as well.

I honestly think the time frame is off. I do IMHO forsee analog television being a thing of the past by 2015, and deffinately by 2020 at the latest.

TGC

P.S. Dallas TWC is waiting to see how SDV goes over in other markets before they commit this area to SDV. DFW could go SDV. Chicago from what I heard is suppose to be the first cable company to drop analog cable. But only sometime AFTER the February 17th, 2009 deadline that all networks be 100% digital anyways.
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Old 09-09-2007, 08:46 PM   #204
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So?? When they do this, they will give you a STB and your S2 will still work just fine..
Yep, When they do that, you could get a STB and your S1/s2 should continue to work just fine.

However, They are looking at plans on doing away with plain STB's in favor of DVR's as your STB. If they did that... They you would plug a S2 into a DVR?

TGC
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Old 09-09-2007, 09:08 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by TexasGrillChef
Yep, When they do that, you could get a STB and your S1/s2 should continue to work just fine.

However, They are looking at plans on doing away with plain STB's in favor of DVR's as your STB. If they did that... They you would plug a S2 into a DVR?

TGC
why not?

If the tivo changes to channel 105, it will change. Who cares if it's a dvr or not..
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Old 09-09-2007, 09:47 PM   #206
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It uses MoCA for streaming the video over the same coax that delivers the 'live' content, doesn't mean they've addressed the firewire issue.
Did you read the quote I was responding to? Where do you see I was responding to anything regarding firewire?
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Old 09-09-2007, 09:56 PM   #207
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Which movies are those? There's a mechanism in AACS (the copy protection system used on Blu-ray and HD DVD discs) called the "Image Constraint Token"; if the ICT is asserted, rendering of the content is constrained to no more than one quarter 1920x1080 (i.e., 960x540) when displayed over analog component video. All of the movie studios have sworn off use of the ICT for the present. In any case, the AACS licensing requires that any release which uses it be clearly labelled, so that people who aren't using HDMI can avoid buying them. (There's a rumor that multiple studios agreed amongst themselves to hold off on using it until 2010 or 2012).

I was unaware that anyone had used the ICT. Which films are you talking about?

I *THINK* OCAP has ICT also...
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Old 09-10-2007, 06:23 AM   #208
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So?? When they do this, they will give you a STB and your S2 will still work just fine..

GIVE??? Eh, no. The cable companies don't "give" anything. When they switch over they will charge you for renting a new box, plus raise the rates for the "bonus" of giving everyone "digital clarity".
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Old 09-10-2007, 07:43 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Adam1115
So?? When they do this, they will give you a STB and your S2 will still work just fine..
Except, your S2DT will only function as a single tuner box.
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Old 09-10-2007, 08:18 AM   #210
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GIVE??? Eh, no. The cable companies don't "give" anything. When they switch over they will charge you for renting a new box, plus raise the rates for the "bonus" of giving everyone "digital clarity".
I expect most companies will "give" you a box for "free" (Comcast always does when you subscribe to a digital service. However, they probably will raise the basic cost to cover it.
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