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Old 09-07-2007, 07:28 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by moyekj
I don't know if it is a question of being kind. The decision to copy protect content should lie with the content provider, not the distributor (cable company in this case) so I think my cable company is simply correctly passing on the flag as set by the content providers without modifying.
I agree that it should work that way, but cable companies are allowed to set any channels they want except the over-the-air stations to copy once - and many do. Even if it's a mistake, they don't have to fix it, which in my experience means that they probably won't.

It will be interesting to see if people can convince their cable companies to change this, as you mention some people having been able to do. That would be great!
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Old 09-07-2007, 08:43 PM   #152
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This is great news... I would rather not use "unsupported" eSATA drives, much rather transfer to my PC and external HDDs, not that eSATA is bad, but I am not comfortable creating such a setup. Now if I could only watch HD and my slingbox on my soon to be arriving ipod touch, I would be in digital heaven!
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Old 09-07-2007, 09:18 PM   #153
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TiVoPony: Can you clarify one thing? When you say "copy protected" do you mean anything that's transmitted via cable which requires a cablecard to receive, or do you mean anything that doesn't have a 0x00 flag that's transmitted via cablecard? In essence, can things recorded through the cablecard be transmitted to my computer in their full digital HD glory?

Also, any news on "fixing" the SDV problem? I want to buy a TiVoHD, but I don't want to make a $300 investment(then pay $16 a month) if the device isn't going to receive all of my channels.
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:35 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by TiVoPony
These features will provide support for video transfers between Series3 & Series2 systems and between a Series3/Series2 system and a PC.
Does that mean we will be able to play non-protected HD video transferred from a S3 to a PC on the PC?
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:39 PM   #155
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Well just keep in mind.

At least for dallas... After Jan 1, 2010. S2 boxes will only work with composite video/audio in.

Why?

Because on Feb 17th, 2009 All OTA will go ATSC Digital. So the Tuners in S2 boxes will no longer work.

On Jan 1st, 2010. TWC in Dallas will DROP all support for ANALOG cable and switch to 100% digital cable.

Thus anything that would normally work with "Analog" cable such as the S2 box. will no longer get a signal from cable. Since analog will be shut off.

Chicago analog cable (so I have heard) will be discontinuing ANALOG cable shortly after the Feb 17th 2009 deadline as well.

What point am I trying to make?

Well if the Content providers / Cable companies are marking the channels as "Copy Once" or even "Copy Never", Then eventually, even S2's won't be able to do MRV/TTG anymore.

Another point I would like to make.... If you do have 2 S3's or THD and you record something with a "Copy Once" flag set. You will still be able to MRV it on your other Tivo S3/HD.... however just once... not many many times... The second time you watch the show, you will still have to watch it on the original Tivo. Thats the way I understand it. I could be wrong. You also might be able to transfer to Show to your PC (just once). However, once it is on your PC, you can use software to RIP & CHANGE the Copy flag. Then maybe transfer it back to any other Tivo you want to view it on.

TGC

Analog Cable/OTA is going away... What ya going to do when its 100% digital?
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Old 09-08-2007, 12:01 AM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasGrillChef
Well just keep in mind.

At least for dallas... After Jan 1, 2010. S2 boxes will only work with composite video/audio in.

Why?

Because on Feb 17th, 2009 All OTA will go ATSC Digital. So the Tuners in S2 boxes will no longer work.

On Jan 1st, 2010. TWC in Dallas will DROP all support for ANALOG cable and switch to 100% digital cable.

Thus anything that would normally work with "Analog" cable such as the S2 box. will no longer get a signal from cable. Since analog will be shut off.

Chicago analog cable (so I have heard) will be discontinuing ANALOG cable shortly after the Feb 17th 2009 deadline as well.

What point am I trying to make?

Well if the Content providers / Cable companies are marking the channels as "Copy Once" or even "Copy Never", Then eventually, even S2's won't be able to do MRV/TTG anymore.

Another point I would like to make.... If you do have 2 S3's or THD and you record something with a "Copy Once" flag set. You will still be able to MRV it on your other Tivo S3/HD.... however just once... not many many times... The second time you watch the show, you will still have to watch it on the original Tivo. Thats the way I understand it. I could be wrong. You also might be able to transfer to Show to your PC (just once). However, once it is on your PC, you can use software to RIP & CHANGE the Copy flag. Then maybe transfer it back to any other Tivo you want to view it on.

TGC

Analog Cable/OTA is going away... What ya going to do when its 100% digital?
S2s will record cable TV for as long as the cable companies are supplying cable boxes with composite or S-Video outputs. I can't see those going away any time soon.

And it is probably possible via software update for the TiVo to control, via IR, an OTA digital STB with an S-Video or composite output.
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Old 09-08-2007, 12:29 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by TiVoPony
HD content cannot be transferred to a Series2. And there is no transcoding ability to convert HD to SD (these are consumer electronic devices, not beefy multi-core PC's). So the answer is no. If it's recorded in HD on a Series3 or TiVoHD, then it can be shared between those platforms, but not with a Series2.

And when I say 'can be shared between those platforms', it of course comes with any caveats the copyright owner dictates regarding sharing.

Pony
For people who keep asking, I think this is a pretty clear answer to whether or not the HD model has this added ability over the S3. After all, this is straight from the horse's (pony) mouth!
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Old 09-08-2007, 12:32 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by mikeyts
Unfortunately, the cable system has the right to do this to anything not in the core basic services tier (the 20 or so channels that you get in the minimum level of service to which you can subscribe and to which you must subscribe to get anything else).
For this reason, the value of non-encrypted, basic tier (local network) channels might increase (i.e. not subject to copy protection). TiVoPony, can you give us any clue as to TiVo's plans to support basic tier digital channels without CableCARDs? Pretty please???
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Old 09-08-2007, 03:47 AM   #159
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As I understand it, CCI=0x02 means "copy one more generation", not "make one more copy". You can make as many copies of the CCI=0x02 program that you want; it's just that the copies must be marked "copy never" CCI=0x03. I can see how this could be enforced on MRV, but not on TTG, since the TTG file on the PC is essentially "copy unlimited". Under this (optimistic) interpretation, you could MRV 0x02 content from TiVo#1 to TiVo#2, but you wouldn't be able to copy it off of TiVo#2; it would look like, for example, TiVoCast content on Tivo#2.
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Old 09-08-2007, 05:27 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by TiVoPony
I don't have anything to share today regarding eSATA.
OK, it's tomorrow now. Anything to share?
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Old 09-08-2007, 09:05 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by TexasGrillChef
Analog Cable/OTA is going away... What ya going to do when its 100% digital?
By the time that eventually happens, technology will have caught up with speed requirements, and you'll be able to buy a $40 chip to encode analog HD video to mpeg-4 in realtime. And then we won't have to worry about satisfying CableLABs or cablecards or CCI or DRM or really any of this obscenely anti-consumer garbage. We'll just record the analog hole and tell the copyright holders to go stuff themselves.
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Old 09-08-2007, 09:29 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by CharlesH
As I understand it, CCI=0x02 means "copy one more generation", not "make one more copy". You can make as many copies of the CCI=0x02 program that you want; it's just that the copies must be marked "copy never" CCI=0x03. I can see how this could be enforced on MRV, but not on TTG, since the TTG file on the PC is essentially "copy unlimited". Under this (optimistic) interpretation, you could MRV 0x02 content from TiVo#1 to TiVo#2, but you wouldn't be able to copy it off of TiVo#2; it would look like, for example, TiVoCast content on Tivo#2.
I was under the impression that copy on the hard drive counted as the "one copy" with the cable stream being the original. If this is the case then MRV would not be allowed either.

Either way, this is going to be a thorn in the side of TiVo users.

When I first got my S3 all digital channels in my cable system, with the exception of ORA broadcast startions, were flagged as CCI=0x02. Every single one of the recordings I had mentioned that "due to policy set by the copyright holder, this recording: Cannot be transferred to VCR, DVD or any other media device" in the info screen (exactly like TiVoCast content does). I still have one of these on my S3 back from January.

I complained to Comcast and it eventually was changed so that only premium channels are flagged CCI=0x02 while everything else is now CCI=0x0. Even after this change though, occasionally programs on the CCI=0x0 channels get flagged as transfer restricted when it looks like they should not be. The weirdest one I saw was two back to back episodes of Cinemetech on G4 where the first was marked as restricted and the second was not.
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Old 09-08-2007, 09:48 AM   #163
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opps, yup. I meant DHCP. Yeah, i to figured that by just plugging it it should get a ip address from the router in the local apartment building. But it doesn't. When I want to the Computer help desk to get this sorted I was told that a Tivo is an unsupported device and the network does not allow it to get passed through. Any request tivo sends out is not returned and there for times out. To acces the network the net work must first scan your computer to varify that you have antivirus and have the latest security updates installed. If it doesn't, a device isn't allowed to access the network and doesn't get passed through. In addition, once a device is allowed through it must be registered, and the internet system forces a page on a computer or a mac for say when you open the browser where you have to fill out your full name, housing information and school email address. Wireless is a whole lot harder with a system scan at every connect and the need to log in with a user name and password. ....
Wow, you're campus network is locked up tighter than my company's Fortune 500 network...which could be telling enough...but nethertheless, it very similar to how some hotels are now controlling access to their networks as well.

Ok, there still may be a way for you do to this....You're going to need to turn on internet sharing via one of your PCs and treat it like an access point and spoof the network into thinking that the traffic is coming from your PC. You're network may limit the port activity via your TiVo but the IP address that your network will see will be your PC and not the TiVo.

There are some how-to's via CNET and other sites that will let you do this. What you need to do is on your own little dorm room network is establish your PC as the gateway and then assign an internal static ip on the TiVo and also manually assign the gateway server on the TiVo to the IP address of your PC. This way, all traffic to/from the TiVo will look like traffic from your PC on the campus network....

you may be able to do dynamic IP assignment from the dhcp server on the PC, but the reason I suggest manual assignment is because you need to make sure that the TiVo is really using your PC as it's gateway and not the router...you also want to secure your PC to make sure it's going to do this for any other device either, so you need to restrict it's sharing with the IP address of your TiVo and also to it's MAC address...take it step by step, get it working then lock down internet access via the PC.

all at least worth at least giving it a try....good luck.


P.S. MRV/TTG will only work within the same subnet so it would only work in your dorm room/apartment network. Unless you've got multiple TiVo's in your apartment this would only enable Tivo2Go (TTG)...which you really don't need out internet access for...but certainly for guide data, and unbox, other applications, etc.
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Old 09-08-2007, 10:27 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by CharlesH
As I understand it, CCI=0x02 means "copy one more generation", not "make one more copy". You can make as many copies of the CCI=0x02 program that you want; it's just that the copies must be marked "copy never" CCI=0x03.
You misunderstand "Copy One Generation". From the DFAST CABLECARD-HOST INTERFACE LICENSE AGREEMENT (PDF page 38):
Quote:
3.5 Copy One Generation.

3.5.1 Licensed Products may make a copy of Controlled Content that is designated in the EMI bits as permissible to be copied for one generation (“Copy One Generation”), as provided in section 3.2 or the first sentence of 3.4.1 or provided that the copy (a) is scrambled, encrypted or uniquely bound to that device, in each case using a form of copy protection that is identified by an amendment to this section 3.5, if any, and (b) is remarked as not to be further copied (“copy no more”) in a manner that is identified by an amendment to this section 3.5, if any, and will be effective to prevent such further copies being made by devices capable of receiving a transmission of such remarked data through the outputs identified in section 2.4. In the absence of either such amendment to this section 3.5, no copy of such Controlled Content other than as permitted in sections 3.2 or the first sentence of 3.4.1 may be made, except as provided in Section 3.5.2.

3.5.2 A Licensed Product that makes a copy of content marked in the CCI as ”Copy One Generation” in accordance with this Section 3.5 may move such content to a single removable recording medium, or to a single external recording device, only when (a) the external recording device indicates that it is authorized to perform this Move function in accordance with the requirements of this Section, and to copy such Controlled Content in accordance with the requirements of this Section 3.5; (b) such Controlled Content is marked for transmission by the originating Licensed Product as “Copy One Generation”; (c) the Controlled Content is output over a protected output in accordance with Sections 2.2, 2.3 or 2.4 of this Exhibit C; (d) before the Move is completed, the originating Licensed Product recording is rendered non-useable and the moved Controlled Content is marked “Copy No More” (e) the device to which the removable recording medium is moved is unable or rendered unable to output the Controlled Content except through outputs authorized by these Compliance Rules; and (f) the copy is stored (i) using an encryption protocol approved by CableLabs which uniquely associates such copy with a single device so that it cannot be played on another device or, if stored to removable media, so that no further usable copies may be made thereof or (ii) otherwise using methods referenced in Section 3.5.1. Multiple moves consistent with these requirements are not prohibited.
The first section states that any copy of content received through a CableCARD marked "Copy One Generation" has to be stored in encrypted form and marked "Copy No More". The second section states that a "move" operation is permitted in which the original copy is rendered unusable (i.e., there is one usable copy remaining after the "move"). The intent is that you be allowed to make a single copy that cannot be freely copied, except in a special operation that destroys the original copy. You get to have one copy of "Copy One Generation" content, period.

The distinction between "Copy Never" and "Copy No More" is that the process for identifying a device as being capable of using "Copy Never" is separate, more elaborate and uses a different set of credentials--not every device has to be provided with credentials to negotiate to receive keys for decryption of "Copy Never" content. One way to prevent a recording device from recording "Copy Never" content is to not provision it with such credentials. You would probably provision a DVR with them, but not necessarily a removable media recorder.
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Old 09-08-2007, 10:37 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by TexasGrillChef
Well if the Content providers / Cable companies are marking the channels as "Copy Once" or even "Copy Never", Then eventually, even S2's won't be able to do MRV/TTG anymore.
FCC regs restrict the use of "Copy Never" to Pay-Per-View and Video-On-Demand.

Quote:
Another point I would like to make.... If you do have 2 S3's or THD and you record something with a "Copy Once" flag set. You will still be able to MRV it on your other Tivo S3/HD.... however just once... not many many times... The second time you watch the show, you will still have to watch it on the original Tivo. Thats the way I understand it. I could be wrong. You also might be able to transfer to Show to your PC (just once). However, once it is on your PC, you can use software to RIP & CHANGE the Copy flag. Then maybe transfer it back to any other Tivo you want to view it on.
By the license agreement, you can't move "Copy One Generation" content at all, except in a "move" operation which destroys the original copy. If you move it to a PC, the copy must be encrypted and protected--you could use software to remove the protection, but it would be illegal software which breaks the DMCA, possession and use of which would be a Federal crime.
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Old 09-08-2007, 11:13 AM   #166
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FCC regs restrict the use of "Copy Never" to Pay-Per-View and Video-On-Demand.
Except for when it "accidentally" gets set by the cableco.
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Old 09-08-2007, 12:36 PM   #167
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You're saying that they encrypt everything that they store on the PC with Series 2 TTG?
Basically yes. The TiVo, in its recording process, encrypts the content,
and maintains the encryption in transfers.

Quote:
Do they encode it as some kind of DRM protected licensed content, ala WMDRM, essentially tethering it to the PC with some limited ability to transfer it to portable devices?
The DRM used in .tivo files is not fixed to the device the .tivo file is downloaded to. There is no "license" applied to the device. All that is needed is a decryption filter, and the Media Access Key, which you can manually enter. Once downloaded to a computer with the decryption filter and MAK, it can be converted to a number of portable formats.

Note: This is from the perspective of Series 2 transfers. Series 3 transfers could be different.
Quote:
I can see where that would make the IP holders happy, though there's nothing which legally compels it. The thing that they (the IP holders) fear most about things like TTG is unfettered network transfer of digital television--it was the stated purpose of the Broadcast Flag.
TiVo uses encryption not because they are compelled to by the IP industry, but to keep the IP industry not looking at TiVo too much, or compelling them to use DRM they don't want to use.
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Old 09-08-2007, 12:36 PM   #168
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I hope we'd still be able to access the Now Playing list via a browser and then just download the .tivo file.
I bet it will be there., although that interface is technically a backdoor, so I wouldn't directly expect it to remain.
Quote:
Then we can use programs to turn it into a .mpeg to play natively on the Mac (for free, like Windows users can) or move the file to a Windows machine that may not be on the same network.
Officially, there is no 3rd party free Mac .tivo file processing utilites.
Transferring the files are probably against your TOS, but can be done.
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Old 09-08-2007, 12:50 PM   #169
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Glad to hear I'll finally be able to transfer video from my PC to Tivo again! And now, with Apple's announcement of possible movie rentals through iTunes, it would be doubly sweet if we could get integrated iTunes rental on Tivo. (hint hint)
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Old 09-08-2007, 12:57 PM   #170
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TivoPony, just to clarify, does this mean we will be able to finally watch our SD sourced Divx & Xvid files on our S3s/HDs using the Desktop 2.5 Plus software? Will we still have to pay the upgrade fee of $25 for this avi playability or is there any chance this feature will be a standard feature of a future version of Desktop? Please!!!
It seems:

SD, yes, HD, possibly later (at release TTCB in HD will be limited to HD .tivo files.

Desktop will always be pay for the conversion features, since codecs legally need paid for. There is zero chance it will be free from TiVo. You can probably find 3rd party converters for free though. Transfers on the S3 won't change that.
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Old 09-08-2007, 03:53 PM   #171
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By the license agreement, you can't move "Copy One Generation" content at all, except in a "move" operation which destroys the original copy.
The specific term in the agreement is "rendered non-usable". The difference might be relevant in an MRV situation where you want to play the show on the original box. That would be theoretical discussion about a future revision of MRV because it sounds like the first release won't be allowed to work with anything having non-zero CCI.
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Old 09-08-2007, 05:07 PM   #172
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The specific term in the agreement is "rendered non-usable". The difference might be relevant in an MRV situation where you want to play the show on the original box. That would be theoretical discussion about a future revision of MRV because it sounds like the first release won't be allowed to work with anything having non-zero CCI.
The functional distinction between "render non-usable" and "destroying" currently escapes me. Permanently removing the index entry which permits access to the bits (not just moving it into the "recently deleted" folder) would satisfy "render non-usuable" whereas if they'd said "destroy" you'd probably have to immediately write over the copy. In either case it's gone, presumably non-retrievable through any normal function of the recorder.
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Old 09-08-2007, 05:47 PM   #173
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Actually I put in a feature request years ago that TiVo allow a move function. I hated MRVing a file and watching it and then having to remember to physically go back to the other TiVo and delete it if need be.

Since I can TTCB as well I would love a setting that any TTG or MRV be a move in whioch the original is gone when the file is complete and finsihed on the other device.
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Old 09-08-2007, 06:01 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by mikeyts
The functional distinction between "render non-usable" and "destroying" currently escapes me. Permanently removing the index entry which permits access to the bits (not just moving it into the "recently deleted" folder) would satisfy "render non-usuable" whereas if they'd said "destroy" you'd probably have to immediately write over the copy. In either case it's gone, presumably non-retrievable through any normal function of the recorder.
Non-usable technically allows for multiple copies with only one usable at any point in time. Destroying allows for only one physical copy. If you watch a show in the family room, then decide to go to bed and watch the rest, MRV would transfer a copy over to the bedroom. If it rendered the original copy non-usable (ie marked it non-usable), you could decide at a later point to watch it in the family room and another MRV copy wouldn't be necessary, just marking the 2nd copy in the bedroom non-usable would be all that is needed. It is basically similar to lazy deletion of shows with the "Recently Deleted" folder. Why delete/destroy a file completely if it isn't required. If you need the space for something else, look in Recently Deleted first, then look in the marked non-usable files.

I'm going by the terminology they decide to use in the agreement. If they wanted to say destroy, they most likely would have specified destroy.

I think if MRV was implemented as true streaming, it wouldn't matter that much but the way MRV is currently implemented there is more flexibility when you play a show that is completely contained on the local drive vs one where you have started playback of the MRV copy prior to the entire show copy being complete.

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Old 09-08-2007, 06:08 PM   #175
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Transfers

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyts
The feature-set of the UI the cable companies have commissioned from TiVo to run on Motorola and SA boxes is controlled by them and I strongly doubt that they'd order TTG (although I could believe they might go for MRV). In any case, doesn't TTG require an Ethernet connection? Do any of the leased cable boxes have one?
Have one what? An Ethernet connection? Yes. That, and Scientific Atlanta has a whole series of set-tops which allow a program recorded on one of their DVRs to bw watched on any set-top in the house.
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Old 09-08-2007, 06:50 PM   #176
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I'm going by the terminology they decide to use in the agreement. If they wanted to say destroy, they most likely would have specified destroy.
We'll have to agree to disagree here. There is no mention in the agreement of the original copy being rendered "temporarily non-usable" to potentially be made usable again at some point. If it'd had been their intention to allow that I'm certain that it would have been spelled out and the conditions under which a "rendered non-usable" copy could be made usable again would have also been clearly spelled out. They said "non-usable" because they didn't want to require that the bits be eradicated, which might not be possible, depending on the medium.

Also, if it were going to allow potential reactivation of "non-usable" copies, I strongly doubt that the agreement would have explicitly allowed the moved copy to be moved again, which it does.
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Old 09-08-2007, 06:55 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by lrhorer
Have one what? An Ethernet connection? Yes. That, and Scientific Atlanta has a whole series of set-tops which allow a program recorded on one of their DVRs to bw watched on any set-top in the house.
Is that using IP over coax stuff developed for MoCA or is it using ethernet for everything?
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Old 09-08-2007, 06:57 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by mikeyts
We'll have to agree to disagree here. There is no mention in the agreement of the original copy being rendered "temporarily non-usable" to potentially be made usable again at some point. If it'd had been their intention to allow that I'm certain that it would have been spelled out and the conditions under which a "rendered non-usable" copy could be made usable again would have also been clearly spelled out. They said "non-usable" because they didn't want to require that the bits be eradicated, which might not be possible, depending on the medium.

Also, if it were going to allow potential reactivation of "non-usable" copies, I strongly doubt that the agreement would have explicitly allowed the moved copy to be moved again, which it does.
In any event, if you use their terminology of "rendered non-useable" rather than your terminology of "destroy" there is no ambiguity, as it matches their term in their agreement.
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Old 09-08-2007, 06:59 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by lrhorer
Have one what? An Ethernet connection? Yes. That, and Scientific Atlanta has a whole series of set-tops which allow a program recorded on one of their DVRs to bw watched on any set-top in the house.
There may be an Ethernet header on the board, but that's different from actual inclusion of a functioning interface. Most of these boxes have a number of optional interfaces that the cable providers can order.

My impression is that Scientific Atlanta's MRV mechanism for these boxes somehow uses the coax loop(s) in your home. It's extremely limited and only allows playback of SD from a DVR by a limited range of non-DVR SD satellites.
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Old 09-08-2007, 07:09 PM   #180
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Also, if it were going to allow potential reactivation of "non-usable" copies, I strongly doubt that the agreement would have explicitly allowed the moved copy to be moved again, which it does.
Why would that lead you to highly doubt? You can have a third box that you want to watch the show on, which would involve, move followed by another move, thus allowing a 2nd move says nothing about how to implement "rendering non-useable" On the contrary, allowing the 2nd move supports the notion of marking non-useable, then allowing that to be marked usable (as long as the other copy is then marked non-usable) because you can accomplish the exact same thing with 2 moves. Marking something non-usable is just an implementation optimization to avoid copy followed by copy back.

Looking at what they are trying to protect against (multiple copies viewed in multiple locations) I don't see any reason why they would object to a lazy deletion method involving marked non-useable. What are they losing by allowing that? You seem to have a strong opinion that this would bring down the whole house of cards if this was allowed?
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