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Old 09-14-2007, 10:39 PM   #391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyts
sfhub pointed out text in the DFAST agreement using a two-high-order-bit field of the CCI mask to determine how to apply analog copy protections like Macrovision AGC. That field is called "APS"; the two-lower-order-bit field determining the copy protection mode is called "EMI". DFAST also defines a one bit field called "CIT" which implements a image constraint function.

So I was wrong about that. Sorry.

I forget- I read through all the docs when the S3 came out as I had an issue with my over zealous provider actually uising 0x03 on some channels. But I think besides, the analog, digital, and image constraint bits there are another bit or 2- might be just "reserved" for now....
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Old 09-15-2007, 02:04 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by MichaelK
if HBO or anyone else wants the restirctions they can set the flags themselve to 0x02 and the headends should pass that along in basically all instances. But since many can attest to HBO having 0x00 on HBO it's obvious that CURRENTLY no national content owner is setting restrictions- except perhaps VOD/PPV/SVOD/ETC
Many others of us can attest to getting HBO's regular (non-SVOD) channels marked Copy One Generation. Here's what HBO has to say on the matter:
Quote:
HBO Copyright Protection Background
HBO includes a technology in its program services that provides copyright protection information to consumer electronic equipment connected to analog outputs of cable and satellite set-top boxes. The technology (CGMS-A -- Content Generation Management System for Analog) enables compliant digital recording devices to abide by federal digital encoding rules.

In accordance with the federal encoding rules, HBO and Cinemax subscribers are still able to make a single copy of HBO and Cinemax linear programming, but are not able to make any copies of HBO-On-Demand or Cinemax-On-Demand programming.

Some of the questions that you may have about CGMS-A are answered below. If you have any additional questions, please contact your consumer electronic equipment manufacturer.
This is from a FAQ on copy protection and concerns their application of CGMS-A to analog outs of their channels, dictating what analog recording equipment made in the past nine years since the DMCA came into effect can do with it (VCRs, DVD recorders, TiVo Series 2, etc). I have to think that they're setting Copy One Generation in their MPEG streams, which is what's telling cable boxes to encode it into CGMS-A on the analog outs. (Read the whole FAQ--you'll love it ).

If you're getting HBO and Cinemax marked Copy Freely, that's the cable provider screw-up. It's certainly not because HBO/Cinemax wants you to.
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Old 09-15-2007, 02:05 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by TexasGrillChef
I agree with you on some points there. What I do disagree with is the deffinition of Piracy.

If somone makes a copy of some content, for the purpose of selling that conent so they can make a profit from it. They YES that is Piracy.
There's professional piracy, which I'd define as unauthorized copying and distribution for monetary gain. Then there's what I call "casual piracy", being unauthorized copying for minor personal gain (getting a free copy of a DVD that you rented or borrowed), or just to be nice to your friends and relations (copying DVDs that you purchased--or copied rentals--to give away, keeping one or more copies for yourself). I know several people who use illegal DVD ripping software to do these things, which are clearly infringement of copyright. I'd like to call this latter activity something other than "piracy"--after all, nautical pirates don't do what they do casually for trivial or no gain. Unfortunately there is no other term for it in common use.

No one has come up with a way to prevent these copyright-infringing acts of copying-with-intent-to-distribute which does not also prevent or inhibit seemingly non-infringing uses (like making back-ups of media that you've purchased or copies of it to download to portable devices or media servers for personal use). The content providers aren't trying to be unreasonable, though. Note the "move" operation defined in the CableCARD licensing for Copy One Generation content. This is all about allowing people to make a copy on removable media of things recorded on DVRs. That provision doesn't do anything favorable for cable providers or the television or motion picture industries, who'd just as soon you not make collections of cable television on removable media, and buy their series season sets instead .
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Old 09-15-2007, 07:48 AM   #394
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Sorry for taking this thread back to the original subject, but....

I just completed an Authorized Reseller Tivo Training program and we were told that TTG & MRV will be available for the S3 and THD later this year, but ONLY FOR ANALOG CONTENT. Neither option will be available for any content provided via the Cablecard (their words) until sometime in 2008.

No mention was made of OTA HD.
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Old 09-15-2007, 08:14 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by jrm01
Sorry for taking this thread back to the original subject, but....

I just completed an Authorized Reseller Tivo Training program and we were told that TTG & MRV will be available for the S3 and THD later this year, but ONLY FOR ANALOG CONTENT. Neither option will be available for any content provided via the Cablecard (their words) until sometime in 2008.

No mention was made of OTA HD.
This appears to directly contradict what TiVoPony said in the first post.... I think what you've heard is some of our old speculation being distributed as fact.

The common rumour around these parts was that TTG/MRV/TTCB would show up first for Analog content.
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Old 09-15-2007, 09:51 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by jrm01
Sorry for taking this thread back to the original subject, but....

I just completed an Authorized Reseller Tivo Training program and we were told that TTG & MRV will be available for the S3 and THD later this year, but ONLY FOR ANALOG CONTENT. Neither option will be available for any content provided via the Cablecard (their words) until sometime in 2008.

No mention was made of OTA HD.
They're wrong. Bob Poniatowski, the OP of this thread, is in product marketing at TiVo and is the main company liaison with this forum. TiVoPony knows; he wouldn't lie to us .
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Old 09-15-2007, 12:19 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by jrm01
Sorry for taking this thread back to the original subject, but....

I just completed an Authorized Reseller Tivo Training program and we were told that TTG & MRV will be available for the S3 and THD later this year, but ONLY FOR ANALOG CONTENT. Neither option will be available for any content provided via the Cablecard (their words) until sometime in 2008.

No mention was made of OTA HD.
Both TiVo HD units can output any HD recorded program on analog RCA composite outputs (480I 4x3), to me that means that both HD TiVos have a digital to analog (480i 4x3) converter built in so MRV could use this converter and move HD digital programs in 480I 4x3 format to any Series 2 TiVo (or Series 3 ). Am i missing something ?? Moving HD between two HD TiVos would be another matter.
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Old 09-15-2007, 01:28 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by mikeyts
Many others of us can attest to getting HBO's regular (non-SVOD) channels marked Copy One Generation. Here's what HBO has to say on the matter:
This is from a FAQ on copy protection and concerns their application of CGMS-A to analog outs of their channels, dictating what analog recording equipment made in the past nine years since the DMCA came into effect can do with it (VCRs, DVD recorders, TiVo Series 2, etc). I have to think that they're setting Copy One Generation in their MPEG streams, which is what's telling cable boxes to encode it into CGMS-A on the analog outs. (Read the whole FAQ--you'll love it ).

If you're getting HBO and Cinemax marked Copy Freely, that's the cable provider screw-up. It's certainly not because HBO/Cinemax wants you to.


my HBO ( and actually every single digital channel on my system) is marked 0x02. so I'm wlll aware that plenty of cable systems have it marked that way.

Again- if HBO wanted it set they would just set the flag on their feed to the cable company's and the headends would pass the flag down stream. So it's almost impossible for it not to be flagged if HBO was sending the flag.

That aside- you are ignoring that all the channels get flagged someplaces. Your going to tell me that such highly pirated content like the NASA channel forces cable company's to flag their content 0x02?

My head end clearly just turns on the 0x02 flag for everything. EVERY LAST THING that's legal. IN cluding the NASA channel. Now I might be mistaken but I'd bet my paycheck that NASA is not demanding that channel to be flagged.

Now I guess it's possible that HBO wants the flag set and all the providers that have it in the clear have somehow overrode the HBO flag. But still that doesn't explain why my NASA channel has the stupid flag set does it?
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Old 09-15-2007, 01:30 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by jrm01
Sorry for taking this thread back to the original subject, but....

I just completed an Authorized Reseller Tivo Training program and we were told that TTG & MRV will be available for the S3 and THD later this year, but ONLY FOR ANALOG CONTENT. Neither option will be available for any content provided via the Cablecard (their words) until sometime in 2008.

No mention was made of OTA HD.

I suspect Tivo Pony will be PM'ing you shortly to see who provided your training since what they said completely contradicted him.
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Old 09-15-2007, 01:32 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by lessd
Both TiVo HD units can output any HD recorded program on analog RCA composite outputs (480I 4x3), to me that means that both HD TiVos have a digital to analog (480i 4x3) converter built in so MRV could use this converter and move HD digital programs in 480I 4x3 format to any Series 2 TiVo (or Series 3 ). Am i missing something ?? Moving HD between two HD TiVos would be another matter.


your missing something-sorry.

hat happens in the output chips and not at the part of the box that handles the mpeg content (sorry I'm not that technical so dont know the proper way to describe it). In a nutshell TivoPony above already said there is no ability to transcode stuff from HD to SD coming.
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Old 09-15-2007, 02:48 PM   #401
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Originally Posted by MichaelK
my HBO ( and actually every single digital channel on my system) is marked 0x02. so I'm wlll aware that plenty of cable systems have it marked that way.

Again- if HBO wanted it set they would just set the flag on their feed to the cable company's and the headends would pass the flag down stream. So it's almost impossible for it not to be flagged if HBO was sending the flag.
Nothing is impossible. I think that the EMI bits set in the CableCARD through DFAST are set separately--the copy-control packets in the MPEG transport stream (which HBO could provide from their transponders) could be consulted to derive the setting for DFAST EMI, but it would require some parsing of the stream. I'm imagining that the cable providers' equipment can do this, if properly set up, or it can provide a static setting for what gets passed by DFAST without ever looking at the stream. That would account for all of the mistakes in copy control people have gotten--both local broadcast channels marked Copy Never and PPV marked Copy Freely have been reported, where the former breaks FCC encoding rules and the latter isn't likely to be intentional.

I think that some cable providers might actually have a policy to set the maximum allowed copy protection mode on all channels at all times. Nothing in the regulations prevent them--all you can do is complain. Earlier, someone in this thread reported that they got action from complaining.

Use of Copy One Generation in my system is fairly spotty. It looks as though all the premium subscription tier channels to which I subscribe (HBO, Showtime) both SD and HD are set that way and about half the expanded-basic-like HD channels (A&E HD, TNT HD, UHD, MHD, Discovery HD, MOJO, etc). None of the standard-def expanded-basic channels are set that way, even when their HD counterpart is. Most of them are digital simulcasts of analog channels, though.
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Old 09-15-2007, 03:44 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by lessd
Both TiVo HD units can output any HD recorded program on analog RCA composite outputs (480I 4x3), to me that means that both HD TiVos have a digital to analog (480i 4x3) converter built in so MRV could use this converter and move HD digital programs in 480I 4x3 format to any Series 2 TiVo (or Series 3 ). Am i missing something ?? Moving HD between two HD TiVos would be another matter.
It is the digital mpeg stream that gets moved around and the conversion to composite happens at the very last stage. To move HD content to an S2 they would need to take the HD mpeg stream and convert it to an SD mpeg stream (hence the name transcoding). This could be done in hardware with certain image processors (as is rumored to be in the TivoHD) or in software (if there were enough spare compute horsepower). Even if it could be done, software would need to be written to control the process and TiVoPony pretty much said it ain't gonna happen any time soon.
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Old 09-15-2007, 04:13 PM   #403
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snip!...

Now I guess it's possible that HBO wants the flag set and all the providers that have it in the clear have somehow overrode the HBO flag. But still that doesn't explain why my NASA channel has the stupid flag set does it?
Foreseeing this problem, I wrote to my own local franchise authority back in January to complain that Comcast was 0x02ing everything in the digital lineup except those channels that were also part of the basic analog lineup and local digital channels. I pointed to Cable in the Classroom as an example of where 0x02 was specifically counter to the intent of the content provider. After a few notes back and forth, and the ultimate involvement of the lead engineer for my region, I received a call to tell me that they were going to switch the flag to 0x00 unless specifically requested by the content provider that it should be otherwise. Additionally, I was told that would be the policy Comcast-wide.

The change took a few weeks to implement. It was not without hiccups -- INHD went 0x03 for a few hours. Now, the only 0x02 channel in the lineup (I have no pay channels) is Encore Movieplex.

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Old 09-15-2007, 07:14 PM   #404
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This I think what you've heard is some of our old speculation being distributed as fact.
What I heard came directly from Tivo disseminated to Authorized Resellers as part of a training program developed by Tivo. It may not be correct, but it did come directly from them.
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Old 09-15-2007, 07:15 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by mikeyts
They're wrong. Bob Poniatowski, the OP of this thread, is in product marketing at TiVo and is the main company liaison with this forum. TiVoPony knows; he wouldn't lie to us .
Then TivoPony better talk to his people who developed the Tivo Accommodation Training Program.
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Old 09-15-2007, 09:13 PM   #406
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What I heard came directly from Tivo disseminated to Authorized Resellers as part of a training program developed by Tivo. It may not be correct, but it did come directly from them.
I think the below post by Pony, from earlier in this thread, saying HD content can be transferred between two S3 platform boxes is pretty clear that the coming TTG/MRV will be for digital content (that is not copy protected) as well as analog.
I am sure you heard what you heard but a training program that takes time to develop and then is open to interpretation 2 or 3 layers deep is just not as reliable to me as the words of one person directly attached to the original source of the information he is posting.
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HD content cannot be transferred to a Series2. And there is no transcoding ability to convert HD to SD (these are consumer electronic devices, not beefy multi-core PC's). So the answer is no. If it's recorded in HD on a Series3 or TiVoHD, then it can be shared between those platforms, but not with a Series2.

And when I say 'can be shared between those platforms', it of course comes with any caveats the copyright owner dictates regarding sharing.

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Old 09-15-2007, 10:02 PM   #407
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I think the below post by Pony, from earlier in this thread, saying HD content can be transferred between two S3 platform boxes is pretty clear that the coming TTG/MRV will be for digital content (that is not copy protected) as well as analog.
I am sure you heard what you heard but a training program that takes time to develop and then is open to interpretation 2 or 3 layers deep is just not as reliable to me as the words of one person directly attached to the original source of the information he is posting.
I hear what you are saying, and I agree with you. However, this was not a case of hearing things. It was written material, from Tivo which said"(TTG and MRV for THD and S3) will be available in late 2007 for analog content. Content received through the cablecard will not be available in 2007."
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Old 09-15-2007, 10:12 PM   #408
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I hear what you are saying, and I agree with you. However, this was not a case of hearing things. It was written material, from Tivo which said"(TTG and MRV for THD and S3) will be available in late 2007 for analog content. Content received through the cablecard will not be available in 2007."
It could well be dated material. If that's the case Tivo's plans have now changed. Otherwise it could just have been a bad interpretation which was not properly proof read by Tivo. As others have stated I would put a lot more stock in what TivoPony has written here than in some training material.
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Old 09-15-2007, 10:51 PM   #409
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Well a subset of CCI=0x00 content (HD locals) for most people, isn't "received" through the CableCARD, but neither is it analog. Just trying to fit a square peg into a circle hole.
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Old 09-16-2007, 12:57 AM   #410
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It could well be dated material. If that's the case Tivo's plans have now changed. Otherwise it could just have been a bad interpretation which was not properly proof read by Tivo. As others have stated I would put a lot more stock in what TivoPony has written here than in some training material.
True, but it's still a problem either way. Either there are a bunch of resellers that will be giving out the wrong information or there will be a lot of people here surprised.
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Old 09-17-2007, 12:26 PM   #411
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Foreseeing this problem, I wrote to my own local franchise authority back in January to complain that Comcast was 0x02ing everything in the digital lineup except those channels that were also part of the basic analog lineup and local digital channels. I pointed to Cable in the Classroom as an example of where 0x02 was specifically counter to the intent of the content provider. After a few notes back and forth, and the ultimate involvement of the lead engineer for my region, I received a call to tell me that they were going to switch the flag to 0x00 unless specifically requested by the content provider that it should be otherwise. Additionally, I was told that would be the policy Comcast-wide.

The change took a few weeks to implement. It was not without hiccups -- INHD went 0x03 for a few hours. Now, the only 0x02 channel in the lineup (I have no pay channels) is Encore Movieplex.
Any chance you still have any of the communication you used? I'd like to start the conversation about this policy with my local franchise as well, but would like to use the correct language.

[Update] Actually...where do I find information on my local franchise authority? I thought a Google search would pop it right up, but no luck so far...
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Old 09-17-2007, 12:44 PM   #412
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Any chance you still have any of the communication you used? I'd like to start the conversation about this policy with my local franchise as well, but would like to use the correct language.

[Update] Actually...where do I find information on my local franchise authority? I thought a Google search would pop it right up, but no luck so far...
I remember reading that it should be on your bill. I do all my bills electronically, so I haven't taken a good look at a bill recently to see if it's actually on there.
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Old 09-17-2007, 03:33 PM   #413
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Any chance you still have any of the communication you used? I'd like to start the conversation about this policy with my local franchise as well, but would like to use the correct language.
Unfortunately, I no longer do.

A couple of points about what I did write, though:
  • I tried not to accuse Comcast of anything. I pointed out that support was unable to help me and that there was likely a configuration issue about which Comcast was unaware -- since S3s were new and, as of yet, unable to transfer recordings -- and I said I just needed to find the right person to resolve it. I didn't want to start out arguing with anyone.
  • I explained CCI and its impact on recordings made on the TiVo.
  • I pointed to Discovery Channel's (and Animal Planet and Travel Channel) programming aimed specifically at classrooms as an example of how blanket copy protection was counter to intended use. (http://school.discoveryeducation.com/ontv/)

Since VCRs are going the way of the dinosaur, the only way for a teacher to get a recording from home to classroom is via DVR transfer and storage on a computer HD or on a DVD. It's hard for them to argue with that.
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Old 09-19-2007, 09:41 PM   #414
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This is great news. I only wish I could use networking on my Tivo though=\. My university's firewall blocks its access to the network and tivo tells me it cannot find a dctp server.

All you need is to setup your computer though a router and log in, then hook in your tivo and it should work. I had this problem when i lived in the dorms... Hope that helps
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Old 09-19-2007, 11:43 PM   #415
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Unfortunately, I no longer do.

since S3s were new and, as of yet, unable to transfer recordings -- and I said I just needed to find the right person to resolve it. I didn't want to start out arguing with anyone.
Interesting comment...I hooked up some new Tivo HD's today and when I attempted to attach one unit to my Dell LCD via HDMI it immediately popped an HDCP error, for every channel. It suggested I use component cables, which I did. Does this mean that Verizon FiOS has flagged every channel and that I won't be able to perform transfers? Is there an easy way to determine if content has been flagged?
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Old 09-19-2007, 11:45 PM   #416
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Your Dell display is probably not HDCP compliant. I had the same problem with a Dell monitor, but the same channels output to a Samsung TV via HDMI worked fine.
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Old 09-20-2007, 01:12 AM   #417
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Interesting comment...I hooked up some new Tivo HD's today and when I attempted to attach one unit to my Dell LCD via HDMI it immediately popped an HDCP error, for every channel. It suggested I use component cables, which I did. Does this mean that Verizon FiOS has flagged every channel and that I won't be able to perform transfers? Is there an easy way to determine if content has been flagged?
The use of HDCP on HDMI output is standard throughout the industry (cable and satellite). HDCP has nothing to do a flag on the programming. It's always enabled.

You can select any recording on your Tivo and hit Info. If that program is copy-protected, the Tivo will tell you. If it doesn't mention copyright protection, then there is none.

I live in the DC area, so I can save you some time. Last I checked, Verizon FiOS did not "copy protect" any digital cable channels in the FiOS TV Premier package. Assuming nothing changes at FiOS in the next three months, you should have no trouble transferring your recordings to a PC come November.
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Old 09-20-2007, 07:27 AM   #418
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The use of HDCP on HDMI output is standard throughout the industry (cable and satellite). HDCP has nothing to do a flag on the programming. It's always enabled.
The use of protection modes in HDCP is supposed to have something to do with the security level of the content. HDCP has a similar set of protection flags as DFAST and DTCP--content can be transported over it marked "Copy Freely". The last time that I looked, the HDMI specs don't even require that HDCP be implemented, though it almost always is.

Except for the hassles that people have experienced with non-interoperability of implementations, HDCP is presently sort of moot. Nothing that you buy at consumer prices could capture the bit stream and encode it into a compressed form in realtime. Even if you could store the uncompressed raster, it would fill a 750 GB HDD in a matter of a few minutes.
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Old 09-20-2007, 07:30 AM   #419
edrock200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyts
The use of protection modes in HDCP is supposed to have something to do with the security level of the content. HDCP has a similar set of protection flags as DFAST and DTCP--content can be transported over it marked "Copy Freely". The last time that I looked, the HDMI specs don't even require that HDCP be implemented, though it almost always is.

Except for the hassles that people have experienced with non-interoperability of implementations, HDCP is presently sort of moot. Nothing that you buy at consumer prices could capture the bit stream and encode it into a compressed form in realtime. Even if you could store the uncompressed raster, it would fill a 750 GB HDD in a matter of a few minutes.
Thanks for the info. After making this post I decided to start an seperate thread on the subject (sorry all for the double post) as well to avoid hijacking this one.

Anyway, thanks again for the info, it appears that is good news for me in regards to MRV and TTT with FiOS.
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Old 09-20-2007, 07:40 AM   #420
mikeyts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edrock200
Thanks for the info. After making this post I decided to start an seperate thread on the subject (sorry all for the double post) as well to avoid hijacking this one.

Anyway, thanks again for the info, it appears that is good news for me in regards to MRV and TTT with FiOS.
I actually think that I'm wrong about some of that post (what I get for fact checking after posting ). HDCP protection is either enabled or disabled--there don't appear to be copy protection flags. It should not be enabled for non copy-protected content, though.
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