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Old 08-26-2007, 12:38 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by morac
How secure does this device really need to be? Basically it will say I want to be able to tune to channel X which is not currently being broadcast so it will send channel X on whatever frequency it chooses and tell the dongle. Even if someone hacked the request, they would still need a CableCARD tied to your account to decode the channel.

Basically the cableCARD would handle the security and this dongle would just handle the 2-way communication. If it used SSH or HTTPS encryption then it wouldn't be any less secure than making an online banking transaction.
I was thinking less of the theft of service angle and more along the lines of the mischievous turn off the node/fake a request and tune everyone's TV to porn type attacks.

Whatever you want to call it sfhub, if I were designing this, I would prefer to limit my connections to outside networks if I can run the entire thing over the cable plant that I own. Your Tivo/Linux server examply is flawed too - find me a published case of a Tivo that's been hacked into for ANY purpose and I'll be able to find a dozen cases of web servers being hacked into.

From a cable companies perspective, it makes no sense to spend the time and money to develop a robust system that can be safely run over the internet when you have a perfectly good network that isn't accessible to anyone around the world that you can use instead.
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Old 08-26-2007, 01:00 PM   #32
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How much is this going to cost? Who is going to pay for it?


I highly doubt this will ever see the light of day, but it would be good if it does. All the effort is now focused on finding a solution for the next generation of cablecards or dcas. There is absolutely no incentive to support legacy hardware like the Tivo S3 or cablecard equipped tvs.
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Old 08-26-2007, 01:07 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by GoHokies!
Your Tivo/Linux server examply is flawed too - find me a published case of a Tivo that's been hacked into for ANY purpose and I'll be able to find a dozen cases of web servers being hacked into.
Can you find me a dozen cases of an SDV Internet Gateway being hacked into?
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Old 08-26-2007, 01:37 PM   #34
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This is huge isn't it????
Yes, I think it is. Note the past tense in this line: "The NCTA said cable has worked with individual consumer-electronics makers ' it cited TiVo ' to develop a solution that can provide two-way switched digital video channels to unidirectional digital cable products."

Why not develop a software-only fix that uses an internet connection? Somebody already mentioned the vulnerability that opens the cableco to, but another reason is it would exclude anyone that doesn't have their TiVoHD or S3 on a broadband connection. Hard to imagine, but I'm sure those people are out there.

I'm impressed NCTA was willing to do an end-run around opencable, but I'm still skeptical that anything will be delivered soon. As for cost, as long as it's less than the cablebox rental and the monthly TiVo service fee I'm paying to get the few SDV channels I care about, it will be worth it to me. To say nothing of the vastly increased WAF of consolidating to just one TiVo instead of two.
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Old 08-26-2007, 02:39 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by GoHokies!
you have a perfectly good network that isn't accessible to anyone around the world that you can use instead.
I remember reading about JTAG cables for SB5100 when I purchased my JTAG cable to debrick my Belkin 7130. I figured at the time it must have been for some hacking purpose but didn't look into it further. Anyway, I found the following a good read. I don't believe the internal coax network is as secure as people think and there are hackers spending their time playing with it as well.

The article is from a while back. It seems since then, they have completely replaced the vxworks OS in the SB5100 and replaced with linux core with complete control of DOCSIS stack and SDK availability for your addon development. Search tcniso if you want to know more.

Cable modem hackers conquer the co-ax
http://www.securityfocus.com/news/7977
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Indeed, the accumulated talent of the group's members has begun to dwarf their raison d'être, and the coders seem to know it. DerEngel is barely interested in discussing uncapping, and speaks instead of the possibilities of writing plug-ins for Sigma -- extensible by design -- that would transform the capabilities of the Surfboard, turning it into a NAT box and a firewall. Isabella thinks they can program the modem to tune to the channels used by the cable companies' digital music feeds, which -- like TV programming -- share the co-ax with the cable modem service. The hack might let the modem send music to the user's PC, where it could be streamed in real time.

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Old 08-26-2007, 03:48 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by vman41
If you're using the cable companies broadband service, you have an upstream communication path already and shouldn't need additional hardware (just support for a new protocol).
But there are a couple of us S3 owners who use DSL for broadband ($34.99/mo for 6Mbs)
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Old 08-26-2007, 06:22 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by sfhub
Can you find me a dozen cases of an SDV Internet Gateway being hacked into?
I don't think that I could come up with a list of a dozen SDV internet gateways!

On your second comment, I agree that there are possibilities for a coax based scheme to be hacked and abused, but it reduces the pool of folks that can hack my node from the millions to the hundreds.
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Old 08-26-2007, 09:27 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by GoHokies!
I was thinking less of the theft of service angle and more along the lines of the mischievous turn off the node/fake a request and tune everyone's TV to porn type attacks.
Eh...the concept of SDV isn't that you'd be using it to tune your TV, but just to signal the headend as to what your TV was tuning to. You wouldn't be switching other people's TV's, you'd just be flooding the cable network with channels that people aren't actually watching. Of course, I almost guarantee that channel surfers are going to do the exact same thing...
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Whatever you want to call it sfhub, if I were designing this, I would prefer to limit my connections to outside networks if I can run the entire thing over the cable plant that I own.
Bingo. Remember that "going through the internet" at this point doesn't mean going out through Bavaria or anything, it just means from your cable modem to the cable company's headend. You still have to deal with your neighbors within the CO's network, but you have to do that anyway.
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Old 08-26-2007, 09:39 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Jazhuis
Eh...the concept of SDV isn't that you'd be using it to tune your TV, but just to signal the headend as to what your TV was tuning to. You wouldn't be switching other people's TV's, you'd just be flooding the cable network with channels that people aren't actually watching. Of course, I almost guarantee that channel surfers are going to do the exact same thing...
Nobody that has changed to a SDV channel will be surfing for very long. Even with TW's SA box it takes a few seconds to tune in an SDV channel. On occasion it even throws up a message that the channel is unavailable for a couple seconds before it finally relents to my apparently unusual request to watch SPEED channel.
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Old 08-27-2007, 11:53 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by pmiranda
.

I'm impressed NCTA was willing to do an end-run around opencable, but I'm still skeptical that anything will be delivered soon. As for cost, as long as it's less than the cablebox rental and the monthly TiVo service fee I'm paying to get the few SDV channels I care about, it will be worth it to me. To say nothing of the vastly increased WAF of consolidating to just one TiVo instead of two.
Here is the latest from megazone on tivolovers. He goes into more detail about how the NCTA has been working with Tivo to get this done. What does this mean to me?

That Tivo and the NCTA "could" already be very close to rolling this out. At the very least, its not just a "concept" as some have labeled it, but at least in development. Its in all these companies' best interest to get something done sooner rather than later.

http://www.tivolovers.com/2007/08/27...3-and-tivo-hd/
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Old 08-27-2007, 12:08 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by kmill14
Here is the latest from megazone on tivolovers. He goes into more detail about how the NCTA has been working with Tivo to get this done. What does this mean to me?

That Tivo and the NCTA "could" already be very close to rolling this out. At the very least, its not just a "concept" as some have labeled it, but at least in development. Its in all these companies' best interest to get something done sooner rather than later.

http://www.tivolovers.com/2007/08/27...3-and-tivo-hd/
Anyone else bothered by this footnote on p.34 of the FCC pdf document referenced in mega's post:
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/r...ent=6519612942
Quote:
Some verification testing is required, but it is likely to be minimal. For SDV to operate properly, the host must operate correctly with the cable headend when an end user has tuned away from a switched channel, or when the channel has remained unchanged with no evidence of user involvement or interaction (i.e., the user leaves the TV on and tuned to the switched channel, but then walks away from the TV for some extended period of time). Here, the host should act in sync with the headend to notify the end user of the pending switch (for example, display “are you still watching?”) before the reclamation of the channel.
That sure seems to complicate things for Tivo since they have to be sure that if there is a recording on a switched channel that it won't be negotiated away during the recording. Not sure what the timeout period is but it better at least be longer that the 30 minute Tivo buffer.
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Old 08-27-2007, 12:18 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by skylab
There is absolutely no incentive to support legacy hardware like the Tivo S3 or cablecard equipped tvs.
I dunno, how about the incentive retaining customers with such "legacy" hardware who would switch to FiOS because they don't need to use SDV? Given the high-pressure marketing push companies like CableVision are making for their VOIP phone service, it seems clear to me that they're pretty scared of FiOS.
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Old 08-27-2007, 12:37 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by moyekj
Anyone else bothered by this footnote on p.34 of the FCC pdf document referenced in mega's post:
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/r...ent=6519612942

That sure seems to complicate things for Tivo since they have to be sure that if there is a recording on a switched channel that it won't be negotiated away during the recording. Not sure what the timeout period is but it better at least be longer that the 30 minute Tivo buffer.
It's not very different for the UI than the current screen that pops up to tell you when it needs to change the channel for a scheduled recording. I don't actually know what happens to the 30-minute buffer in that case, but I vaguely remember the buffer being kept as long as you don't hit the 'live' button or go to another program.

If this thing works, I say bring it (and SDV) on, along with a few more HD channels!
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Old 08-27-2007, 12:38 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by bdlucas
Quote:
Originally Posted by skylab
There is absolutely no incentive to support legacy hardware like the Tivo S3 or cablecard equipped tvs.
I dunno, how about the incentive retaining customers with such "legacy" hardware who would switch to FiOS because they don't need to use SDV? Given the high-pressure marketing push companies like CableVision are making for their VOIP phone service, it seems clear to me that they're pretty scared of FiOS.
Also both Comcast and Cox have a relationship with Tivo to provide Tivo software on their DVRs so if nothing else you would think those 2 cable providers would have some obligation to work with Tivo on this issue.
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Old 08-27-2007, 01:30 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by moyekj
That sure seems to complicate things for Tivo since they have to be sure that if there is a recording on a switched channel that it won't be negotiated away during the recording. Not sure what the timeout period is but it better at least be longer that the 30 minute Tivo buffer.
I don't think it is terribly complicated to implement given there is already an event queue that can interrupt LiveTV, but depending on the timeout it could get annoying for end-users that watch the same channel for long periods in the background like news and CNBC junkies, assuming of course those channels are moved to SDV. If it is too short, it'll be like the dialup Internet connection timeout people used to hate about dialup Internet, before always-on broadband became popular.
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Old 08-27-2007, 01:39 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by sfhub
I don't think it is terribly complicated to implement given there is already an event queue that can interrupt LiveTV, but depending on the timeout it could get annoying for end-users that watch the same channel for long periods in the background like news and CNBC junkies, assuming of course those channels are moved to SDV. If it is too short, it'll be like the dialup Internet connection timeout people used to hate about dialup Internet, before always-on broadband became popular.
Supposedly the SDV timeout on Time Warner boxes is currently up around 4 hours, and any activity (ie volume up/down, whatever on the IR) is enough to tell the box you're still watching. If this is an acceptable implementation, any TV that has somebody actually watching it should be fine. I wouldn't recommend this for a sports bar, but every one I've been to lately is on satellite anyway.
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Old 08-27-2007, 01:52 PM   #47
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...I would think you'd want it for longer than 4 hours (a movie like LotR or Gladiator could run that on cable with commercials), but I'd think the odds of you running into this problem too often are pretty slim. If it became a big issue, couldn't TiVo just add a "Always say yes on this channel" option? The "Always say yes" choice would have to be narrow (by channel or time slot) to not nullify the raison d’être for SDV, though...

My big issue with this solution is that cable makes it seem like this is a surprise: once we were told that SDV wouldn't work with cablecard + TiVo, we jumped to action. Action should have been taken, tested and rolled out before SDV was ever put into place.
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:10 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by moyekj
That sure seems to complicate things for Tivo since they have to be sure that if there is a recording on a switched channel that it won't be negotiated away during the recording. Not sure what the timeout period is but it better at least be longer that the 30 minute Tivo buffer.
For the purposes of Tivo, "recording"=watching. When a recording is complete, it will go into "not-watched" mode, unless the user is actually watching the LiveTV buffer.
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:15 PM   #49
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For the purposes of Tivo, "recording"=watching. When a recording is complete, it will go into "not-watched" mode, unless the user is actually watching the LiveTV buffer.
Yeah, I can't imagine sitting and watching a 4 hour movie without recording it or pausing it at least once. I guess the worst-case scenario is a house guest so unfamiliar with technology and uncomfortable with your TV that they're scared to push a button so they can keep watching something.
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:19 PM   #50
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How much is this going to cost? Who is going to pay for it?


I highly doubt this will ever see the light of day, but it would be good if it does. All the effort is now focused on finding a solution for the next generation of cablecards or dcas. There is absolutely no incentive to support legacy hardware like the Tivo S3 or cablecard equipped tvs.
I am thinking it would be an accessory you get along with your cablecards.
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:40 PM   #51
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I am thinking it would be an accessory you get along with your cablecards.
Unlikely. It has no authentication in it, so you'd still need cablecards from the cableco, but the widget would be sold by TiVo or a 3rd party. It's just a cable transmitter, perhaps with a built in splitter that goes between the widget and the cable-in RF connector on your TiVo. The fun of this is that if you have a marginal signal now, expect it to be at least 2dB more marginal after installing it. It might even have trouble operating through some cable amps or splitters you might have. Still, it beats having a separate cableco box just to watch one or two SDV channels I care about.
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Old 08-27-2007, 03:04 PM   #52
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Cable companies are anti-consumer, duh

Let's face it, if it wasn't for satellite, there would be no HD cable channels and probably not even digital cable channels. The only thing that motivates cable companies to enhance anything is competition. The only reason SDV even exists is because DirecTV has been launching tons of new HD channels. If it weren't for this and FiOS breathing down their necks cable would still be stuck in the 1980's technology wise.

It's completely ridiculous that cable can't offer PPV, On Demand and SDV via a software solution. If I can securely order movies from my Amazon account I should be able to do the same (ie. order PPV) from my cable company. It should be easy enough to link a TiVo with a cable provider for PPV, SDV and anything else that requires 2-way communication. Specifically, this solution would only be available to broadband users (as is Amazon Unbox, etc) but it has no limitation on broadband service provider since TCP/IP is provider independent.

I laugh everytime I see one of those Cable Labs commercials about how they are so innovative. They just makes me want FiOS even more.
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Old 08-27-2007, 05:11 PM   #53
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It's completely ridiculous that cable can't offer PPV, On Demand and SDV via a software solution. If I can securely order movies from my Amazon account I should be able to do the same (ie. order PPV) from my cable company. It should be easy enough to link a TiVo with a cable provider for PPV, SDV and anything else that requires 2-way communication. Specifically, this solution would only be available to broadband users (as is Amazon Unbox, etc) but it has no limitation on broadband service provider since TCP/IP is provider independent.
The funny thing about this whole thread is that the solution is already there ... the dongle (USB or E-NET) IS a CABLEMODEM that is already avaliable.

Just a splitter on the cable end, a registerd CABLEMODEM, either USB or E-NET and viola. They can verify that the request comes from THAT registered CABLEMODEM if the concern is w/ security.

This way every system is common (since DOCSIS from CableLabs sets CABLEMODEM standards) and all needed is the s/w on the TiVo/CE device to send the channel request and corresponding piece on the HEADEND.

Problem solved ... why can't it be this easy????

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Old 08-27-2007, 05:25 PM   #54
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This way every system is common (since DOCSIS from CableLabs sets CABLEMODEM standards) and all needed is the s/w on the TiVo/CE device to send the channel request and corresponding piece on the HEADEND.

Problem solved ... why can't it be this easy????

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Not to nit-pick but the channel request is processed at the hub level, not headend.
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Old 08-27-2007, 05:27 PM   #55
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Not to nit-pick but the channel request is processed at the hub level, not headend.
I think it is actually propogated up to the headend and processed in the headend then switched at the hub. They will not be putting SDV management servers in each hub.
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Old 08-27-2007, 05:30 PM   #56
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The system that I am pretty familiar with is done at the HUB level.
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Old 08-27-2007, 05:35 PM   #57
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The system that I am pretty familiar with is done at the HUB level.
You're familiar with SA I guess?
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Old 08-27-2007, 05:46 PM   #58
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We are using bigband for sdv.
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Old 08-27-2007, 06:21 PM   #59
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MegaZone has posted about this.

He found the FCC filing. Relevant language:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCTA Filing to FCC
It is in everyone’s interest for cable operators to use their networks more efficiently, and SDV technology allows the cable operators to do so. Unfortunately, as designed, one-way UDCPs are not capable of accessing SDV channels: SDV channels require two-way device functionality. In order to address this issue, the cable industry has worked with CE companies such as TiVo to arrive at a solution that can provide two-way SDV channels to one-way digital cable products through an external device attachment to the UDCP.
Makes it sound like this is well under way already.
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Old 08-27-2007, 07:07 PM   #60
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Informal poll: # of months before we see this device in the wild?

I'm going in for 20. I'm a glass-half-full kind of guy.
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