TiVo Community
TiVo Community
TiVo Community
Go Back   TiVo Community > Main TiVo Forums > TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs
TiVo Community
Reply
Forum Jump
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-26-2009, 02:59 PM   #1231
bkdtv
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: DC Metro Area
Posts: 7,902
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciucca View Post
I think TIVO pretty much admitted the problem is theirs not FIOS. At least people who post on this board did. I guess the official TIVO position is to blame FIOS.
The issue is not TiVo-specific, as many older CableCard devices (and PC CableCard tuners) exhibit the same problem. Based on that fact, it seems obvious that the FiOS signal differs from the typical cable company signal in some way. That difference is not enough to cause problems for everyone; for those that have problems, attenuation resolves the problem for many, but not all.

Based on TiVoJerry's post, I suspect the next TiVo software will include new tuner firmware and/or driver to deal with the differences in the FiOS signal.

Last edited by bkdtv : 06-26-2009 at 07:58 PM.
bkdtv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2009, 03:02 PM   #1232
hmm52
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Lower Gwynedd, PA
Posts: 405
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciucca View Post
I agree that you may have had a different problem than the "hot" signal causing TIVO pixelation. I was address the problem fixed by attenuation. I do not wish to argue but I know that Verizon network level technicians (these guys are college educated engineers) do not believe the network is an issue. I'm not disparaging verizon field techs, but most guys who come to your house and unfortunately their supervisors do not have the same level of expertise, so I will take what they say with a grain of salt. Most are converted lineman, and phone techs that are working from "cook" books.
Like I said I respect the field techs and do not wish to belittle their knowledge. Some are very good, but it is not the majority unfortunately.
I'm going to try to find something we can agree on. I think it's so that Verizon's Motorola boxes have very rarely suffered from pixelation, anywhere. The same is true for the three Sony devices I've had since '95. So nearly all the time, VZ's signals are maintained well enough nationwide to provide good service to the vast majority of their subscribers. But there is a small subset who need or greatly benefit from tighter control over the signal, particularly line errors. This includes myself - the owner of a TiVo S3 and a Toshiba cablecard TV (a technological misadventure abandoned by its manufacturer before I bought it, so not one SW update since '06).

In the 31 months I've had FiOS TV, there were roughly 5 months where pixelation was common. With the 2 worst periods, both in '07, the Big Boss, and a top tech soon to become that for my area, read massive line errors on quite a few frequencies at the incoming fiber optic feed then referred the matter up the chain. Resolution came very soon and soon thereafter. I think variation in problems nationwide with TiVo and FiOS commonly have to do with the CO to house part of the network; the signals could be fine for Motorolas and Sonys but not for TiVo and some others. By the way, these two VZ techs had a very high level of expertise. Both came from FiOS Internet service and were trained in Virginia or Texas; the 2nd seemed to have knowledge, and interest, well beyond what he needed for his job - my impression. I've certainly encountered others that fit your comments though.

The four months last year where tiling was a routine visitor came to end shortly before Verizon launched their expanded HD lineup and did a channel realignment. I assume the reason for resolution then is that new QAMs were added at my central office and other upgrades and maintenance were done there similutaneously. I appreciate the clear 12 months.

I can't say for sure if the two horrific episodes in '07 were caused by something other than what is discussed here. I doubt it. I knew nothing about attenuation until I bought the S3 early in '08. But both the S3 and Toshiba did benefit from attenuators through similar but less severe periods last year. I don't believe it's just an issue of hot signal or cold signal for that matter. It's possible to have a clear screen with signal strength in the 50s or pegged at 100; also possible to have serious tiling regardless of attenuation and signal strength. I think it depends on the quantity and nature of the line errors (which also can be generated in house - poorly installed cable ends, staples through cables, etc.). I think attenuation can simply help less than robust tuners manage line errors, successfully or not depending on their severity.

I doubt you'll agree with everything I've written, except perhaps the first part. What else would explain the variation that I and others have seen, by region and over time?
__________________
Phila. VHO - Ambler CO // FiOS
hmm52 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2009, 05:15 PM   #1233
hmm52
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Lower Gwynedd, PA
Posts: 405
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkdtv View Post
The issue is not TiVo-specific, as many older CableCard devices (and PC CableCard tuners) exhibit the same problem. Based on that fact, it seems obvious that the FiOS signal differs from the typical cable company signal in some way. That difference is enough to cause problems for everyone; for those that have problems, attenuation resolves the problem for many, but not all.

Based on TiVoJerry's post, I suspect the next TiVo software will include new tuner firmware and/or driver to deal with the differences in the FiOS signal.
.... Many older cablecard devices but not all. The 3 Sonys I have, 1 TV & 2 DVRs, have been nearly immune to tiling; each built in 2005. The common denominator for cablecard units back then was that they were all pretty expensive for their group, with just one tuner. It's been my thought that TiVo shortchanged the tuner budget somewhat for their dual tuner DVRs. Thus the problems. What do you think? It wouldn't fit well with a software only solution however. I think it was Hitachi and Mitsubishi who also offered cablecard TVs years ago. I wonder how they've gotten along with FiOS.
__________________
Phila. VHO - Ambler CO // FiOS
hmm52 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2009, 08:50 AM   #1234
ciucca
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkdtv View Post
The issue is not TiVo-specific, as many older CableCard devices (and PC CableCard tuners) exhibit the same problem. Based on that fact, it seems obvious that the FiOS signal differs from the typical cable company signal in some way. That difference is not enough to cause problems for everyone; for those that have problems, attenuation resolves the problem for many, but not all.

Based on TiVoJerry's post, I suspect the next TiVo software will include new tuner firmware and/or driver to deal with the differences in the FiOS signal.

I beg to differ. Motorola uses Tuners with hardware/firmware that work 99.9% of the time. TIVO uses cheaper commercial grade tuners that cost less per unit than the ones that Motorola uses. The TIVO ones run out of spec more often than the Motorola's. It doesn't matter if the signal coming in drifts from time to time, as long as it is within spec. All equipment needs to be design to work at all possible valid ranges. The CATV standard allows for signal variations within an acceptable range. Unless there is a malfunction with the ONT, or less probably some head end equipment Verizon's signal to your TV meets that 99.99% of the time.

I'm interested to find out how TIVO is going to fix this with updated drivers. I hope it doesn't make the problem worse.
ciucca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2009, 09:16 AM   #1235
ciucca
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm52 View Post
I'm going to try to find something we can agree on. I think it's so that Verizon's Motorola boxes have very rarely suffered from pixelation, anywhere. The same is true for the three Sony devices I've had since '95. So nearly all the time, VZ's signals are maintained well enough nationwide to provide good service to the vast majority of their subscribers. But there is a small subset who need or greatly benefit from tighter control over the signal, particularly line errors. This includes myself - the owner of a TiVo S3 and a Toshiba cablecard TV (a technological misadventure abandoned by its manufacturer before I bought it, so not one SW update since '06).

In the 31 months I've had FiOS TV, there were roughly 5 months where pixelation was common. With the 2 worst periods, both in '07, the Big Boss, and a top tech soon to become that for my area, read massive line errors on quite a few frequencies at the incoming fiber optic feed then referred the matter up the chain. Resolution came very soon and soon thereafter. I think variation in problems nationwide with TiVo and FiOS commonly have to do with the CO to house part of the network; the signals could be fine for Motorolas and Sonys but not for TiVo and some others. By the way, these two VZ techs had a very high level of expertise. Both came from FiOS Internet service and were trained in Virginia or Texas; the 2nd seemed to have knowledge, and interest, well beyond what he needed for his job - my impression. I've certainly encountered others that fit your comments though.

The four months last year where tiling was a routine visitor came to end shortly before Verizon launched their expanded HD lineup and did a channel realignment. I assume the reason for resolution then is that new QAMs were added at my central office and other upgrades and maintenance were done there similutaneously. I appreciate the clear 12 months.

I can't say for sure if the two horrific episodes in '07 were caused by something other than what is discussed here. I doubt it. I knew nothing about attenuation until I bought the S3 early in '08. But both the S3 and Toshiba did benefit from attenuators through similar but less severe periods last year. I don't believe it's just an issue of hot signal or cold signal for that matter. It's possible to have a clear screen with signal strength in the 50s or pegged at 100; also possible to have serious tiling regardless of attenuation and signal strength. I think it depends on the quantity and nature of the line errors (which also can be generated in house - poorly installed cable ends, staples through cables, etc.). I think attenuation can simply help less than robust tuners manage line errors, successfully or not depending on their severity.

I doubt you'll agree with everything I've written, except perhaps the first part. What else would explain the variation that I and others have seen, by region and over time?
Could you possibly accept that the cause could be the TIVO's inability to operate at all valid db ranges for the incoming signal? Lets agree on one thing. All signals transmitted over cable, fiber, etc will have some frequency drift and some decoding errors at the receiving end. Most of the time there is not a problem. All CATV providers will have unfixable errors less than 1% of the time. Usually there is a threshold of errors that will eventually raise flags for the technicians to look at. This is why standards are agreed upon by open source vendors. So vendors that make receivers, TIVO, motorola, etc can agree that their equipment will handle signals and digital encoding within a certain range. This way they can run well known digital error correction algorithms to compensate for any errors, and the tuners can tune QAM frequencies within a range. The user will probably never notice any issues with the received signals when it is displayed on the TV. Of course if the signal etc falls out of range then it will show up as pixelation on the TV, or picture freezes.

Anyway to sum up. If you inject a signal into both a TIVO and Motorola DCT that have known errors that should be correctable and vary within spec, especially testing the border conditions, you can see how each box behaves. I've heard rumors that if this is done you will see the TIVO choke as you approach the borders much more than the DCT.

You cannot have a box that only works well at within a signal level window in a small range, you need to handle every possible variation within spec. In my mind TIVO fails this test, which makes it their problem.

I am curious how they are going to fix the problem with firmware changes, that appears to be hardware related. Of course they will never tell anyone.
ciucca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2009, 02:26 PM   #1236
MookieDoug
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Natick, MA
Posts: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciucca View Post
I beg to differ. Motorola uses Tuners with hardware/firmware that work 99.9% of the time. TIVO uses cheaper commercial grade tuners that cost less per unit than the ones that Motorola uses. The TIVO ones run out of spec more often than the Motorola's. It doesn't matter if the signal coming in drifts from time to time, as long as it is within spec. All equipment needs to be design to work at all possible valid ranges. The CATV standard allows for signal variations within an acceptable range. Unless there is a malfunction with the ONT, or less probably some head end equipment Verizon's signal to your TV meets that 99.99% of the time.

I'm interested to find out how TIVO is going to fix this with updated drivers. I hope it doesn't make the problem worse.
Do you have actual data to back up the 99.9% stats you cite? Also, do you have any actual data to show that FIOS subscribers who use Tivo are less than this 99.9% figure? (Also, you used 2 different figures: 99.9% and 99.99%. Not sure which one is correct, if either.)

Also, I just want to say, when I got FIOS in March I used their Motorola DVR boxes. Not only was their DVR interface so bad that I couldn't take it more than 2 days, but I had to get replacement DVR boxes TWICE because of pixellation, within a week of install. Both times the tech who rolled out blamed the box as being faulty. After 6 days my Tivo HD arrived in the mail and I was able to switch to cable cards, and I had minimal pixellation problems on 1 channel (which completely fixed with minimal attenuation.) But it was always better than the FIOS Motorola box.
MookieDoug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2009, 03:46 PM   #1237
webin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Posts: 307
Quote:
Originally Posted by MookieDoug View Post
Do you have actual data to back up the 99.9% stats you cite? Also, do you have any actual data to show that FIOS subscribers who use Tivo are less than this 99.9% figure? (Also, you used 2 different figures: 99.9% and 99.99%. Not sure which one is correct, if either.)
He's making approximations that fit his point of view. If you look back through the archives (I don't remember which thread), Ciucca and Irhorer had a long, heated "discussion" about the Tivo vs Verizon topic. Irhorer used his technical knowledge of electrical engineering in the CATV industry, and Ciucca used his Verizon Employee tow-the-company-line experience. I won't hide my opinion here: Ciucca stubbornly refuses to believe Verizon could have any fault, and his bias stems directly from his employer. (And he'll correctly counter that TCF members tend to stubbornly reverse the blame).

I'd have to go looking, but I actually did produce some fairly good estimates of how many FiOS customers are tivo users, and how many tivo customers use FiOS.
webin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2009, 10:17 AM   #1238
blacksnakeball
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 11
Please Help Update

Had to weigh in here.

First off Tivo corporate has made amends in ways that VZ never did when I had disputes with them. Basically I got a guarantee from Tivo that if the software patch doesn't resolve my FIOS signal issue then Tivo will allow me to swap out my box for a new one (not refurb) at no cost to me. Since I will shortly be out of the 90 day warranty I felt this was an important concession.

I had two Moto boxes running FIOS before I switched to Tivo. The first unit failed in less than a week. The other ran so hot that it would (IMHO) produce occasional annoying dropouts (not pixelation)

The Motos were fast and i liked the speedy menus and VOD was very responsive. But the buffer? No capacity? The way the remote could not snap back while jogging through a recorded or time-shifted show. Missing recordings due to crappy guide data.

As much as I have been through the wringer with my signal issues on my Tivo, I would never, ever go back to the moto from VZ. Instead I would try and get my old SA 8300 HD from Time Warner.
blacksnakeball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2009, 02:23 PM   #1239
ciucca
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by webin View Post
He's making approximations that fit his point of view. If you look back through the archives (I don't remember which thread), Ciucca and Irhorer had a long, heated "discussion" about the Tivo vs Verizon topic. Irhorer used his technical knowledge of electrical engineering in the CATV industry, and Ciucca used his Verizon Employee tow-the-company-line experience. I won't hide my opinion here: Ciucca stubbornly refuses to believe Verizon could have any fault, and his bias stems directly from his employer. (And he'll correctly counter that TCF members tend to stubbornly reverse the blame).

I'd have to go looking, but I actually did produce some fairly good estimates of how many FiOS customers are tivo users, and how many tivo customers use FiOS.
Really?! I highly doubt that the majority of responders have any idea of electrical engineering in the CATV industry. That made my day! I had a good laugh. I realize the bulk of the frequent posters on this board (and you know who you are) have a vested interest in the success of TIVO. The facts are the facts, I'm just reporting them. This board has the classic "emperor has no clothes" syndrome. I actually wish the TIVO was more of a solid product, because it actually has some benefits that the DCT does not. I now have to turn in my red polo shirt! Finally I will reiterate: Verizon will bend over backwards to fix any customer issue that they have control over.

Verizon has some issues, but at least they do not try to cover up their product deficiencies. I also would like to say that the vast majority of FIOS customers are satisfied, this board is made up of a small percentage of customers who cannot accept that their TIVO may be the cause of their dissatisfaction.

One more thing. From your posts I have read over the years I believe you to be a TIVO employee. so there!

Last edited by ciucca : 06-30-2009 at 02:32 PM.
ciucca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2009, 02:27 PM   #1240
ciucca
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by MookieDoug View Post
Do you have actual data to back up the 99.9% stats you cite? Also, do you have any actual data to show that FIOS subscribers who use Tivo are less than this 99.9% figure? (Also, you used 2 different figures: 99.9% and 99.99%. Not sure which one is correct, if either.)

Also, I just want to say, when I got FIOS in March I used their Motorola DVR boxes. Not only was their DVR interface so bad that I couldn't take it more than 2 days, but I had to get replacement DVR boxes TWICE because of pixellation, within a week of install. Both times the tech who rolled out blamed the box as being faulty. After 6 days my Tivo HD arrived in the mail and I was able to switch to cable cards, and I had minimal pixellation problems on 1 channel (which completely fixed with minimal attenuation.) But it was always better than the FIOS Motorola box.
Yes I do but I cannot give them to you without revealing my true identity Commissioner Gordon!
ciucca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2009, 09:59 AM   #1241
MookieDoug
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Natick, MA
Posts: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciucca View Post
I also would like to say that the vast majority of FIOS customers are satisfied, this board is made up of a small percentage of customers who cannot accept that their TIVO may be the cause of their dissatisfaction.
I would also like to say that from what I've seen the vast majority of TIVO customers are satisfied as well. And the vast majority of TIVO customers who use FIOS are satisfied as well. Compared to the volume of people in this country who use Tivo with FIOS, this forum represents a tiny fraction.

The issue here is not whether Tivo is causing dissatisfaction or if FIOS is causing it. FIOS built a Fiber Optic product to carry phone, internet and TV services to the customer. When they designed/built this product I have no doubt they did their testing for TV based on their own FIOS receivers and DVR boxes. Tivo has built a DVR that, by definition, is required to work across MULTIPLE cable platforms, including FIOS. I have no doubt when Tivo deisnged/built their product they tested it on as many cable systems/providers as possible. I also have no doubt that Tivo could not build a product that satisfied every single cable platform in the country. (It would not only have to satisfy every cable provider, but also every local cable lines, as we know the strength of signal varies from town to town.)

The issue lies not in who's at fault; it lies in the fact that we have 2 separate products -- products are NOT trying to accomplish the same thing, I might add -- that are trying to work together. An analogy (maybe not a good one, but I work in a kitchen) would be someone who buys a Kitchenaid mixer, and then buys another company's attachments to use with that mixer. They will most likely work; but they could also fail sooner, as those attachments were built for all mixers, not just Kitchenaid. If that attachment didn't work and you called Kitchenaid, they'd probably say, "um, our product is fine -- don't use that other company's attachment." If you called the other company, they would try to fix the problem, but might also say, "our product works fine with Kitchenaid as well as all mixers. If you're having a problem with it, we'll replace it, but if that one doesn't work, it's probably Kitchenaid." In many ways using Tivo with FIOS is trying to fit a octoganal peg into a round hole. It'll fit, it just might not be perfect.

The perfect solution would be for FIOS and Tivo to work together so one could purchase a combined FIOS/Tivo box without the cable cards, the way that you used to be able to purchase a DirecTV/Tivo box. But FIOS wants the DVR money to themselves, even tho FIOS has the crappiest DVR I've ever seen in my life. So we beat on, knowing we don't have a perfect setup, hoping that sooner or later FIOS and Tivo can begin to work better together to help everyone out.

And no, I do not work for Tivo, I don't own stock in Tivo, and I have ZERO vested interest in Tivo, beyond the fact that they have the best DVR product on the market and I would be depressed if they ever went away.
MookieDoug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2009, 10:42 AM   #1242
ciucca
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by MookieDoug View Post
I would also like to say that from what I've seen the vast majority of TIVO customers are satisfied as well. And the vast majority of TIVO customers who use FIOS are satisfied as well. Compared to the volume of people in this country who use Tivo with FIOS, this forum represents a tiny fraction.

The issue here is not whether Tivo is causing dissatisfaction or if FIOS is causing it. FIOS built a Fiber Optic product to carry phone, internet and TV services to the customer. When they designed/built this product I have no doubt they did their testing for TV based on their own FIOS receivers and DVR boxes. Tivo has built a DVR that, by definition, is required to work across MULTIPLE cable platforms, including FIOS. I have no doubt when Tivo deisnged/built their product they tested it on as many cable systems/providers as possible. I also have no doubt that Tivo could not build a product that satisfied every single cable platform in the country. (It would not only have to satisfy every cable provider, but also every local cable lines, as we know the strength of signal varies from town to town.)



The perfect solution would be for FIOS and Tivo to work together so one could purchase a combined FIOS/Tivo box without the cable cards, the way that you used to be able to purchase a DirecTV/Tivo box. But FIOS wants the DVR money to themselves, even tho FIOS has the crappiest DVR I've ever seen in my life. So we beat on, knowing we don't have a perfect setup, hoping that sooner or later FIOS and Tivo can begin to work better together to help everyone out.

And no, I do not work for Tivo, I don't own stock in Tivo, and I have ZERO vested interest in Tivo, beyond the fact that they have the best DVR product on the market and I would be depressed if they ever went away.
Two points.

1) This is why standards have been agreed upon and open source equipment is designed to meet that specification. From your paragraph above you are saying that TIVO does not meet the standard.

I do not wish to go into it in detaIl, but do a google search and you will find all the information you need in regards to CATV QAM transmission standards and receiver standards. Each manufacturer agrees to meet these standards.

2) Yes the perfect solution would be for FIOS and TIVO to work together to fix the TIVO, but lets face reality. Verizon does not have an interest in TIVOs success or failure. All they can do is tell their engineers that their equipment is failing to meet the industry specifications (did you do your google search?). Thats all Verizon should do. Are you implying that Verizon should change their QAM broadcast equipment to work with TIVO even if the TIVO cannot handle in spec broadcasts??? You must be kidding. TIVO needs to figure out how to test their product to work in the full range of acceptable signal levels.

I don't understand this attitude where Verizon should fix TIVO's issue. They a re a third party vendor that is peddling equipment that is clearly out of spec. Perhaps if TIVO pays them they will help.

Anyway I guess TIVO execs got the message since they claim to have fixed their issue.
ciucca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2009, 11:25 AM   #1243
webin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Posts: 307
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciucca View Post
1) This is why standards have been agreed upon and open source equipment is designed to meet that specification. From your paragraph above you are saying that TIVO does not meet the standard.

I do not wish to go into it in detaIl, but do a google search and you will find all the information you need in regards to CATV QAM transmission standards and receiver standards. Each manufacturer agrees to meet these standards.


I don't understand this attitude where Verizon should fix TIVO's issue. They are a third party vendor that is peddling equipment that is clearly out of spec. Perhaps if TIVO pays them they will help.
Tivo can just as rightly claim that FiOS signals, while possibly staying within standards, push the envelope so much that third-party equipment, such as Tivos and cable card TVs, have difficulty working with the signal. The simple example for this is that FiOS is the ONLY service that Tivos (and those old CC TVs) are choking on. TWC and Comcast pixillate occasionally, too, but we don't have enough data to know for sure what the issue is there. If a piece of equipment works satisfactorily with everything EXCEPT one service, you can bet there's something about that service that's causing problems.

Can you, with 100% certainty, prove the FiOS signal arriving at my home in Hillsboro Oregon meets the agreed upon standards? Just because Verizon has "agreed" to them, doesn't mean they actually meet those standards. It's like you've completely forgotten everything Irhorer told us about how the signal interacts with the tuner sensitivity. I'm not going waste my time finding and linking that discussion, because I doubt it matters to you.
webin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2009, 11:43 AM   #1244
richsadams
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,853
Hmmm...let's see

Comcast corp - 24.1 Million subscribers
Time Warner Cable - 13 Million subscribers
Cox Communications - 5.3 Million subscribers
Charter Communications - 5 Million subscribers
Cablevision - 3.1 Million Subscribers
Brighthouse Networks - 2.3 Million subscribers
Verizon FIOS - 1.4 Million subscribers
Mediacom - 1.3 Million subscribers
And so on...(source: NCTA)

Millions of TiVo's work flawlessly with dozens of cableco's. It may be a "standards" issue, but I'm just saying one of these is not like the others.
richsadams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2009, 01:05 PM   #1245
richsadams
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,853
Read TiVoJerry's post regarding new software upgrade here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TiVoJerry View Post
We just started rolling 11.0d to a random set of HD DVRs in the field last night. The main intent of this SW is to reduce pixelation for FiOS customers. Results have been extremely favorable. The changes made may even improve video quality with other providers as well.

This begins the CS Ramp evaluation of the SW and what's effect on our call centers might be. I review all cases logged against these units for a couple of weeks before we deem it acceptible to send to all HD DVRs. Barring any unforeseen need to hold it back, it goes out to the entire population very quickly, so there is no need to for a priority list.

Please refrain from PMing me asking to receive the SW sooner. My inbox (and my "plate" in general) is already getting pretty full and I doubt I could handle the volume. Try to be patient just a little longer.

Thank you.

richsadams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2009, 01:54 PM   #1246
ciucca
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by richsadams View Post
I truly hope the 11.0d software fixes the pixelation issue TIVO is having.

I think that this whole thing has been handled badly by the TIVO people to begin with. Verizon has been bashed on this board unfairly. Standards have been created for just this situation. If you are a third party vendor trying to sell equipment to an open source network, you cannot verify it works with only one type of signal (cable companies), and then complain when it does not work with a *NEW* provider that has a slightly different QAM transmission, but within specifications.

Now this is my speculation, but I suspect since the TIVOHD came before FIOS, they developed and design it to work with existing cable companies at the time. Then along comes FIOS, which is slightly different and causes their original TIVO tuner software to have issues, and for reasons I'm sure had to do with money they refused to admit the problem. I have a suspicion why they are now, after how many years, fixing the issue which could have been done a long time ago.

For the TIVO insiders perhaps you can get TIVO Jerry or one of the TIVO engineers who frequent this board to post what this software fix is? I hope it is not the same problem the DTIVO had about 5 years ago with a tuner parameter that was incorrectly set that caused one of the 2 tuners to oscillate from 100 to 0. That also was fixed with attenuation, using a radio shack splitter. I'm sure some people here remember that.

Last edited by ciucca : 07-01-2009 at 02:00 PM.
ciucca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2009, 03:23 PM   #1247
richsadams
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciucca View Post
Now this is my speculation, but I suspect since the TIVOHD came before FIOS, they developed and design it to work with existing cable companies at the time. Then along comes FIOS, which is slightly different and causes their original TIVO tuner software to have issues <snip>
I am almost certain that your speculation is correct...something we probably can all agree on. How the remedy was handled by either party (and why) will probably be fodder for "conversation" forever because we'll probably never know the answer.

Bottom line is that we have concrete evidence that TiVo is doing something about it.
richsadams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2009, 06:48 PM   #1248
Phantom Gremlin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Tualatin, Oregon
Posts: 1,542
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciucca View Post
I think that this whole thing has been handled badly by the TIVO people to begin with.
Definitely. There have been complaints here about FiOS since 2007 if not earlier. It's now 2nd half of 2009. Clearly TiVo isn't populated with the brightest bulbs in the room if it has taken them this long to begin to roll out a fix.
Phantom Gremlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2009, 09:37 PM   #1249
bkdtv
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: DC Metro Area
Posts: 7,902
My report on the new update:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkdtv View Post
I have FiOS and received the 11.0d update yesterday.

I was previously able to eliminate 99+% of all pixelization with 16+dB attenuation. Without this attenuation, most channels exhibited massive pixelization and some channels would not reliably tune.

I did not notice any problems post-install. To test potential improvement with this release, I removed my attenuation this afternoon. To my surprise, I do not see any pixelization on any channel. I checked all my favorite channels for RS Uncorrected errors, and saw none except for occasional errors in the first second or so after tuning a channel. After the first second, there were no further RS Uncorrected errors. Channels that previously required some attenuation to tune...can now be tuned without attenuation and without pixelization.

Verdict: At least for me, the 11.0d update eliminates the need for attenuation. Pixelization is nowhere to be seen.

bkdtv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 12:19 AM   #1250
exdishguy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciucca View Post
I truly hope the 11.0d software fixes the pixelation issue TIVO is having.

I think that this whole thing has been handled badly by the TIVO people to begin with. Verizon has been bashed on this board unfairly. Standards have been created for just this situation. If you are a third party vendor trying to sell equipment to an open source network, you cannot verify it works with only one type of signal (cable companies), and then complain when it does not work with a *NEW* provider that has a slightly different QAM transmission, but within specifications.

Now this is my speculation, but I suspect since the TIVOHD came before FIOS, they developed and design it to work with existing cable companies at the time. Then along comes FIOS, which is slightly different and causes their original TIVO tuner software to have issues, and for reasons I'm sure had to do with money they refused to admit the problem. I have a suspicion why they are now, after how many years, fixing the issue which could have been done a long time ago.

For the TIVO insiders perhaps you can get TIVO Jerry or one of the TIVO engineers who frequent this board to post what this software fix is? I hope it is not the same problem the DTIVO had about 5 years ago with a tuner parameter that was incorrectly set that caused one of the 2 tuners to oscillate from 100 to 0. That also was fixed with attenuation, using a radio shack splitter. I'm sure some people here remember that.
The problem is (or was, because the new firmware fixes the issue) jitter on some frequencies, in some homes, from some COs, etc. and Tivo's inability to deal with the jitter due to some firmware tweaks needed to compensate for crappy signals/frequencies.

Clearly Tivo could improve their firmware to deal with the issue - and they did. On the other hand, Verizon has done nothing but throw attenuators out like friggin' gumdrops and have employee trolls like you post trash about Tivo rather than attempting to fix the issue.

So if I were you (and thank god I'm not), I wouldn't get too cocky about Tivo's fix. To all that can see more clearly than someone like you that works for Verizon, there were two parties contributing to the problem and only one stepped up and fixed it. To me, Tivo just made a friend for life. Verizon on the other hand, can only hope that their price continues to be attractive because it is the only reason I am "loyal" to them - otherwise, I'd be gone in a NY minute.

Now for the rest of us non-Verizon-troll-types, you should be happy to hear that bkdtv is spot on. The new 11.0d firmware completely fixes the issue!!!! Now we can enjoy watching FiOS TV rather than having to talk to Verizon employees like ciucca, which in turn should mean less stress for us all!

THANKS TO TIVO FOR FIXING THIS ISSUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
exdishguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 11:19 AM   #1251
webin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Posts: 307
Quote:
Originally Posted by exdishguy View Post
...and have employee trolls like you post trash about Tivo.
I actually think he's being a troll pro bono.
webin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 11:29 AM   #1252
ciucca
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by exdishguy View Post
The problem is (or was, because the new firmware fixes the issue) jitter on some frequencies, in some homes, from some COs, etc. and Tivo's inability to deal with the jitter due to some firmware tweaks needed to compensate for crappy signals/frequencies.

Clearly Tivo could improve their firmware to deal with the issue - and they did. On the other hand, Verizon has done nothing but throw attenuators out like friggin' gumdrops and have employee trolls like you post trash about Tivo rather than attempting to fix the issue.

So if I were you (and thank god I'm not), I wouldn't get too cocky about Tivo's fix. To all that can see more clearly than someone like you that works for Verizon, there were two parties contributing to the problem and only one stepped up and fixed it. To me, Tivo just made a friend for life. Verizon on the other hand, can only hope that their price continues to be attractive because it is the only reason I am "loyal" to them - otherwise, I'd be gone in a NY minute.

Now for the rest of us non-Verizon-troll-types, you should be happy to hear that bkdtv is spot on. The new 11.0d firmware completely fixes the issue!!!! Now we can enjoy watching FiOS TV rather than having to talk to Verizon employees like ciucca, which in turn should mean less stress for us all!

THANKS TO TIVO FOR FIXING THIS ISSUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is there something wrong with you! Don't you have another satellite dish to install? All of your posts prove to me that you have no clue what you are talking about. Your just another Dish network installer with 6 months training who now thinks he is an engineering authority.

Yes I agree thank God TIVO finally fixed their problem, after it was pointed out to them.
ciucca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 04:47 PM   #1253
exdishguy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciucca View Post
Is there something wrong with you! Don't you have another satellite dish to install? All of your posts prove to me that you have no clue what you are talking about. Your just another Dish network installer with 6 months training who now thinks he is an engineering authority.

Yes I agree thank God TIVO finally fixed their problem, after it was pointed out to them.
I'm not a dish installer nor have I ever been - its a forum handle you twit, not a job description. I actually work in semiconductors and have worked with video as well as mixed signal. While I am not an engineer nor do I profess to be one, the empirical evidence simply does not substantiate your claims that Tivo's hardware tuners cannot be fixed by firmware and are inadequate; nor does your silly claims that Verizon has no culpability in this matter mean anything because the mere fact that not ALL Tivo installations were experiencing pixelation issues (to and including some of the folks working at the FSC!) should be proof enough for anyone with half a brain that Tivo wasn't entirely to blame.

Now the question as to how well Tivo handled things certainly has merit. But to me, actions speak louder than words and Tivo came through - Verizon did not. Period. Either way, the issue is fixed - much to your disappointment I'm sure since you need to find a new forum to troll.

Now will some moderator please banish this Verizon troll?
exdishguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 05:41 PM   #1254
ciucca
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by exdishguy View Post
I'm not a dish installer nor have I ever been - its a forum handle you twit, not a job description. I actually work in semiconductors and have worked with video as well as mixed signal. While I am not an engineer nor do I profess to be one, the empirical evidence simply does not substantiate your claims that Tivo's hardware tuners cannot be fixed by firmware and are inadequate; nor does your silly claims that Verizon has no culpability in this matter mean anything because the mere fact that not ALL Tivo installations were experiencing pixelation issues (to and including some of the folks working at the FSC!) should be proof enough for anyone with half a brain that Tivo wasn't entirely to blame.

Now the question as to how well Tivo handled things certainly has merit. But to me, actions speak louder than words and Tivo came through - Verizon did not. Period. Either way, the issue is fixed - much to your disappointment I'm sure since you need to find a new forum to troll.

Now will some moderator please banish this Verizon troll?
The truth is the truth, sorry you cannot handle it. Another insult? I surprised you are not banned you have nothing interesting to add to the conversation.
ciucca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 05:48 PM   #1255
Mike Lang
Super Moderator
 
Mike Lang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 5,486
Exclamation

Both of you stop the bickering and attacks or you will both be removed.
Mike Lang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 05:55 PM   #1256
webin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Posts: 307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Lang View Post
Both of you stop the bickering and attacks or you will both be removed.
I would consider sacrificing exdishguy as a martyr if it let us get rid of chewbacca
webin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 06:04 PM   #1257
richsadams
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by webin View Post
I would consider sacrificing exdishguy as a martyr if it let us get rid of chewbacca

richsadams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 07:47 PM   #1258
bradenmcg
Big Geek
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mayfield Heights, OH
Posts: 29
Jumping in here because this is where it belongs...

I'm getting a lot of blocking on Time Warner, I'm in an SDV area and have Tuning Adapters. Seems to only happen on SDV channels but we haven't been keeping track that closely yet.

When I have the issues, I have ZERO RS errors, corrected or uncorrected. On the diagnostics for my Scientific Atlanta M-Card, I do see a "Decrypt Failed time" at the same approximate time as the macroblocking.

Don't think it's signal as the RS errors aren't there. I'm actually in touch with TivoJerry and we're going to work on it, I'll post results here if there are any to post.
bradenmcg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2009, 01:22 PM   #1259
jchas41
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradenmcg View Post
Jumping in here because this is where it belongs...

I'm getting a lot of blocking on Time Warner, I'm in an SDV area and have Tuning Adapters. Seems to only happen on SDV channels but we haven't been keeping track that closely yet.

When I have the issues, I have ZERO RS errors, corrected or uncorrected. On the diagnostics for my Scientific Atlanta M-Card, I do see a "Decrypt Failed time" at the same approximate time as the macroblocking.

Don't think it's signal as the RS errors aren't there. I'm actually in touch with TivoJerry and we're going to work on it, I'll post results here if there are any to post.
Sounds similiar to what I've been experiencing. Let me know, I'm hoping the patch helps me.
Although, I did immediately check tivo diagnostics after the last bit of pixelating and saw some RS errors there, about 1000 or so. We'll see I guess.
jchas41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2009, 09:46 AM   #1260
dlfl
Cranky old novice
 
dlfl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Near Dayton, Ohio
Posts: 6,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradenmcg View Post
Jumping in here because this is where it belongs...

I'm getting a lot of blocking on Time Warner, I'm in an SDV area and have Tuning Adapters. Seems to only happen on SDV channels but we haven't been keeping track that closely yet.

When I have the issues, I have ZERO RS errors, corrected or uncorrected. On the diagnostics for my Scientific Atlanta M-Card, I do see a "Decrypt Failed time" at the same approximate time as the macroblocking.

Don't think it's signal as the RS errors aren't there. I'm actually in touch with TivoJerry and we're going to work on it, I'll post results here if there are any to post.
I'm in a similar situation with TWC, Dayton Ohio, although maybe not as severe as your description.

Question: Where do you find the "Decrypt Failed time" ? I have an HD with two Scientific Atlanta s-cards.
__________________

"It must be swell to be so perfect and odor-free" -- Del Griffith


VideoReDo users: Try
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

pyTivo users: Try
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
and
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
dlfl is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Forum Jump




Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Advertisements

TiVo Community
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skins by: Relivo Media

(C) 2013 Magenium Solutions - All Rights Reserved. No information may be posted elsewhere without written permission.
TiVoŽ is a registered trademark of TiVo Inc. This site is not owned or operated by TiVo Inc.
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:49 PM.
OUR NETWORK: MyOpenRouter | TechLore | SansaCommunity | RoboCommunity | MediaSmart Home | Explore3DTV | Dijit Community | DVR Playground |