TiVo Community
TiVo Community
TiVo Community
Go Back   TiVo Community > Main TiVo Forums > TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs
TiVo Community
Reply
Forum Jump
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-23-2007, 08:12 AM   #1
bicker
Gruff
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 9,141
Copy Protection Affecting TTG/MRV

Which of the programs indicated below are supposed to be copy protected, versus are mistakenly labeled as copy protected by a mistake made by the broadcaster or cable service.

I'm seeing is the following programs Copy Protected:

- Animal Planet (ADS) - Meerkat Manor
- Travel Channel (ADS) - Anthony Bourdain, Passport to Europe, Taste of America, Globe Trekker, Floyd on Italy
- Noggin (SD) - Dawson's Creek
- TBS HD - Dawson's Creek, Law and Order:SVU
- HD Theater - HD Traveler, Risk Takers
- UHD - Six Feet Under, G Garvin, Firefly
- G4 (SD) - Star Trek:TNG
- Sci Fi (ADS) - Roswell

I'm also seeing a good number of programs free to transfer to TiVo Desktop:

- TNT HD - Law & Order
- WFXT-DT (HD) - Law & Order:CI
- (lots more)

I want to get a jump on addressing any mistakes in copy protection coding before it matters....
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by bicker : 10-27-2007 at 06:02 AM.
bicker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 08:18 AM   #2
Joybob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 581
You cannot move Copy Protected programs. Nothing can change this.
Joybob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 08:32 AM   #3
bicker
Gruff
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 9,141
I'm sorry but I didn't make my question clear. Rather, I am asking which of the indicated programs are supposed to be copy protected, versus are mistakenly labeled as copy protected by a mistake made by the broadcaster or cable service. I've updated my OP.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bicker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 08:33 AM   #4
andyf
Registered User
 
andyf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Houston, TX, USA
Posts: 1,103
Someone needs to create a cable company blacklist thread. Many cable companies are incorrectly marking shows as copy protected. Some cable companies (mine) don't mark any copy protected.

In theory, IMO only premium channels should be marked copy protected.
__________________
Andy
andyf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 08:35 AM   #5
Joybob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker
I'm sorry but I didn't make my question clear. Rather, I am asking which of the indicated programs are supposed to be copy protected, versus are mistakenly labeled as copy protected by a mistake made by the broadcaster or cable service.
Nothing incorrect about it.
Joybob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 08:37 AM   #6
bicker
Gruff
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 9,141
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyf
In theory, IMO only premium channels should be marked copy protected.
Hmmm.... well that would be nice, but I think that the only requirement is that broadcast HD be free of copy protection. My inquiry though goes to the core of the issue with regard to what the broadcasters intended. Did Animal Planet, for example, intend to copy protect Meerkat Manor, or was that an error (by Animal Planet or by Comcast)?
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bicker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 08:40 AM   #7
Joybob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker
Hmmm.... well that would be nice, but I think that the only requirement is that broadcast HD be free of copy protection. My inquiry though goes to the core of the issue with regard to what the broadcasters intended. Did Animal Planet, for example, intend to copy protect Meerkat Manor, or was that an error (by Animal Planet or by Comcast)?
It was intentional and there is nothing we can do about it.
Joybob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 09:03 AM   #8
bicker
Gruff
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 9,141
Indeed, there is nothing we can or should do about it if it was intentional. I don't believe that it was, at least not across-the-board for all the items I listed, especially since many of the items are SD, and can be copied off of my S2 -- however, if someone has specific information to the contrary, with regard to the networks or programs I listed, that would be very helpful. Thanks!
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bicker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 09:40 AM   #9
sommerfeld
Lucky (?) 200 member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Arlington, MA
Posts: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker
Indeed, there is nothing we can or should do about it if it was intentional. I don't believe that it was, at least not across-the-board for all the items I listed, especially since many of the items are SD, and can be copied off of my S2
That proves nothing -- that's merely the so-called "analog hole" in action. By copying things off your S2, you've been making copies the studios don't want you to make. You certainly have the right to make those copies to permit personal time- and space-shifting use, but regardless of that right, the studios don't want you to make them.

It is naive to expect that DRM bits will be set to permit legitimate copying; rather, they will be set to permit only use consistent with the business models of the distributor.
sommerfeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 09:42 AM   #10
naclone
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 118
is there a way to tell what shows are flagged and which aren't? i presume it varies by cable company?
naclone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 09:44 AM   #11
bkdtv
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: DC Metro Area
Posts: 7,902
Quote:
Originally Posted by naclone
is there a way to tell what shows are flagged and which aren't? i presume it varies by cable company?
Select the recording and hit the INFO button. That will tell you if it is copy protected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker
I want to get a jump on addressing any mistakes in copy protection coding before it matters....
If your provider is among the few that does copy-protect most their digital cable channels, there is not much you can do about that.

FCC mandate permits cable companies to apply copy protection (CCI 0x02) -- preventing use of TTG and MRV -- on any channel outside of the limited basic tier. In most cases, this is an independent decision by the cable company, but it can also be done at the request of the content provider, some of whom now want some copy protection as part of the contract renewal for their channel(s).

Cable companies are not permitted to copy-protect local channels. If you are not able to use TTG (or MRV) with a recording from a local channel, you should contact your cable provider to have them correct the problem. Tell them they are using a CCI value of 0x02 on their local channels that prevents copying, in violation of federal law.
bkdtv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 11:09 AM   #12
HDTiVo
Not so Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,556
Quote:
Originally Posted by naclone
is there a way to tell what shows are flagged and which aren't? i presume it varies by cable company?
Unfortunately, there does not seem to be a way for future recordings. You only find out after (or during?) the recording is made (started?).

-------------

This is going to be an important subject for us.

We need to know in what circumstances who has the right to decide the flags. When is it only the cable channel, and when can the cable co make a choice to alter it?

Which are the correct settings so we know when there is an error? Errors do occur, believe it or not.

How to fight cases where the cable co adds flags as of right, but you want to convince them to change policy?
HDTiVo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 11:13 AM   #13
rodalpho
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 486
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkdtv
If your provider is among the few that does copy-protect most their digital cable channels, there is not much you can do about that.
Yup, that's where I'm at right now. Almost everything is copy once. It pretty much makes TTG useless.
rodalpho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 11:15 AM   #14
Joybob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTiVo
Unfortunately, there does not seem to be a way for future recordings. You only find out after (or during?) the recording is made (started?).

-------------

This is going to be an important subject for us.

We need to know in what circumstances who has the right to decide the flags. When is it only the cable channel, and when can the cable co make a choice to alter it?

Which are the correct settings so we know when there is an error? Errors do occur, believe it or not.

How to fight cases where the cable co adds flags as of right, but you want to convince them to change policy?
Such is the plight of early adopters.
Joybob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 11:15 AM   #15
HDTiVo
Not so Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,556
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkdtv
If your provider is among the few that does copy-protect most their digital cable channels, there is not much you can do about that.

FCC mandate permits cable companies ....
Will there be a "new" way for cableCARD based TiVoes to detect flags on analog cable channels, or is this only relevant to digital channels? What about S2s?
HDTiVo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 11:17 AM   #16
HDTiVo
Not so Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,556
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodalpho
Yup, that's where I'm at right now. Almost everything is copy once. It pretty much makes TTG useless.
ALso, where is the intermediate option of moving one useable recording around? Its been either copy/duplicate freely or nothin' so far?
HDTiVo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 11:49 AM   #17
rodalpho
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 486
No, it's copy once. And that copy is sitting on your TiVo. Copying it again to your computer would be copy twice, which doesn't exist.

copy never: PPV only, deletes from your DVR after 90 minutes

copy once: should only be on premium channels, but up to your cable co and there's nothing you can do about it. Cannot be on OTA local channels.

copy freely: OTA local channels and any other channels your cable co allows. TTG works with it.
rodalpho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 12:03 PM   #18
bicker
Gruff
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 9,141
Quote:
Originally Posted by sommerfeld
That proves nothing -- that's merely the so-called "analog hole" in action.
Okay, that makes a lot of sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sommerfeld
It is naive to expect that DRM bits will be set to permit legitimate copying; rather, they will be set to permit only use consistent with the business models of the distributor.
I think what has me confused is that it isn't consistent within even a distributor: For Discovery networks, Animal Planet is locked down, but sister station Discovery Home is not. For the Turner networks, only some shows are locked down, and that wouldn't surprise me much, except the production companies for two show with different copy protection settings are the same (L&O vs. L&O:SVU)!
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bicker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 12:08 PM   #19
bicker
Gruff
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 9,141
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTiVo
We need to know in what circumstances who has the right to decide the flags. When is it only the cable channel, and when can the cable co make a choice to alter it?
According to the poster above, only broadcast channels must remain without copy protection. Also, assuming that's the case, I would suspect that networks can, if they wish, forbid copy protection, just as readily as they can require it, in their contracts. Though, if they were to mention it at all, I bet it would be to require it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTiVo
Which are the correct settings so we know when there is an error?
That is precisely the question I'm asking in this thread. This is one of the few things like this that I've (casually) read is sometimes a mistake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTiVo
How to fight cases where the cable co adds flags as of right, but you want to convince them to change policy?
Unsubscribe and let them know why.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bicker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 12:08 PM   #20
bicker
Gruff
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 9,141
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTiVo
ALso, where is the intermediate option of moving one useable recording around?
TiVo has announced that they will not support that. For more information on that, please contact TiVo directly.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bicker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 12:09 PM   #21
bicker
Gruff
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 9,141
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodalpho
No, it's copy once. And that copy is sitting on your TiVo.
That's actually not the case, but given what I said above, it is effectively the same thing.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bicker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 12:12 PM   #22
mikeyts
Wireless Wiseguy
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 2,121
The applicable FCC regs are Code of Federal Regulations Title 47, §76.1904
Quote:
§76.1904 Encoding rules for defined business models.

(a) Commercial audiovisual content delivered as unencrypted broadcast television shall not be encoded so as to prevent or limit copying thereof by covered products or, to constrain the resolution of the image when output from a covered product.

(b) Except for a specific determination made by the Commission pursuant to a petition with respect to a defined business model other than unencrypted broadcast television, or an undefined business model subject to the procedures set forth in §76.1906:

(1) Commercial audiovisual content shall not be encoded so as to prevent or limit copying thereof except as follows:

(i) To prevent or limit copying of video-on-demand or pay-per-view transmissions, subject to the requirements of paragraph (b)(2) of this section; and

(ii) To prevent or limit copying, other than first generation of copies, of pay television transmissions, non-premium subscription television, and free conditional access delivery transmissions; and

(2) With respect to any commercial audiovisual content delivered or transmitted in form of a video-on-demand or pay-per-view transmission, a covered entity shall not encode such content so as to prevent a covered product, without further authorization, from pausing such content up to 90 minutes from initial transmission by the covered entity (e.g., frame-by-frame, minute-by-minute, megabyte by megabyte).
(You can find precise definitions of the various business models mentioned above in CFR Title 47, §76.1902). To paraphrase, paragraph (a) states that they cannot prevent copying of stuff which other regulations require to be provided in unencrypted form (basically, any digital channels in the core basic tier, which are the 20 or so channels provided for the smallest charge that you can pay for cable service, which you must buy to get any cable service and which must included all rebroadcast of local channels, analog or digital). Paragraph (b)(1)(i) says that they can set Pay-Per-View and Video On Demand to "Copy Never" and paragraph (b)(1)(ii) says that they can they can set anything else to "Copy One Generation". Paragraph (b)(2) requires that recording devices be allowed to keep an ephemeral up-to-90-minute trick-play buffer of anything, including "Copy Never" (TiVo uses a 30 minute buffer).

So, except for core basic cable (called "limited basic" by some providers), the service providers are allowed to mark everything "Copy One Generation" which TiVo will not copy. At least one person who was in a system where almost everything was being marked Copy One Generation complained to his cable provider and local franchising authority and got action wherein the provider stopped setting things to Copy One Generation except where the content provider specifically requested it (see this post). Supposedly his provider (Comcast) made this the policy nationwide.
__________________
Mike Scott

"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
" -- hookbill
mikeyts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 12:21 PM   #23
astrohip
Stuart F
 
astrohip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Houston & Brenham TX
Posts: 7,392
I am confused. Does this affect TTG or MRV or both? I can see where TTG would have issues with copy protection, but why would MRV, where the stream remains in TiVo's hands, care?

It seems the usefulness of MRV becomes severely limited if any digital broadcast can be locked out (except OTA).
astrohip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 12:24 PM   #24
bicker
Gruff
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 9,141
(regarding what Mike posted, above)

And my area tends to be very much in step with Comcast corporate, so it is looking more and more that the copyright codes on the recordings I listed above are probably accurate reflections of the content owners' wishes. Even if they're internally inconsistent.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bicker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 12:26 PM   #25
bicker
Gruff
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 9,141
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrohip
I am confused. Does this affect TTG or MRV or both?
This was TTG, I checked. I'll go check MRV, now. However, I didn't see TiVoPony make ANY distinction between the two when he explained how the TiVo would handle copyright protection of digital recordings.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bicker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 01:03 PM   #26
HDTiVo
Not so Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,556
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodalpho
No, it's copy once. And that copy is sitting on your TiVo. Copying it again to your computer would be copy twice, which doesn't exist.

copy never: PPV only, deletes from your DVR after 90 minutes

copy once: should only be on premium channels, but up to your cable co and there's nothing you can do about it. Cannot be on OTA local channels.

copy freely: OTA local channels and any other channels your cable co allows. TTG works with it.
Obviously.

But the missing case of copy once and move that one copy around sticks out. There are four potential flags now, right? Where is that intermediate?
HDTiVo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 01:14 PM   #27
HDTiVo
Not so Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,556
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrohip
I am confused. Does this affect TTG or MRV or both? I can see where TTG would have issues with copy protection, but why would MRV, where the stream remains in TiVo's hands, care?

It seems the usefulness of MRV becomes severely limited if any digital broadcast can be locked out (except OTA).
Both certainly.
HDTiVo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 01:20 PM   #28
HDTiVo
Not so Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,556
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker
Unsubscribe and let them know why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker
TiVo has announced that they will not support that. For more information on that, please contact TiVo directly.
How could I have thought this might be a serious thread instead of your constant trollism?
HDTiVo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 01:37 PM   #29
SCSIRAID
Registered User
 
SCSIRAID's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vero Beach, FL
Posts: 2,297
For TWC Raleigh... everything sourced digitally except locals is flagged x02 and thus copy protected. I spoke with TWC this morning and appealed to them to open up the flagging at least for the digital tier. Cross fingers....

He indicated that other MRV systems didnt do a 'copy' from box to box thus opening up the multiple copy issue. He indicated they streamed from box to box which he viewed as not violating the flags.
SCSIRAID is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 01:43 PM   #30
mikeyts
Wireless Wiseguy
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 2,121
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTiVo
Obviously.

But the missing case of copy once and move that one copy around sticks out. There are four potential flags now, right? Where is that intermediate?
There are four flags: Copy Freely, Copy One Generation, Copy No More and Copy Never. "Copy No More" is a special case that should never be used on content transmitted by a cable provider--it's for marking playback of "Copy One Generation" content when done over protected digital connections which support the flag, like 1394/DTCP.

How content marked with each of these protection modes must be handled is not defined by the FCC, but in the licensing agreements for the various protection mechanisms which support the modes (DTCP, DFAST, CableCARD Host Interface, etc). DFAST and CableCARD host interface licensing agreements allow a special "move" operation to be implemented for Copy One Generation content. Basically, it allows the device to play back the content over a protected digital connection marked Copy One Generation one time, after which the original copy on the source device must be deleted. Since it was transferred marked Copy One Generation, the destination has the same obligations for protecting it and not freely copying it around.

If bicker is right, TiVo is not deigning to support such an operation at this time. I can't say that I blame them--properly protecting a moved Copy One Generation recording on a PC is difficult.
__________________
Mike Scott

"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
" -- hookbill
mikeyts is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Forum Jump




Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Advertisements

TiVo Community
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skins by: Relivo Media

(C) 2013 Magenium Solutions - All Rights Reserved. No information may be posted elsewhere without written permission.
TiVoŽ is a registered trademark of TiVo Inc. This site is not owned or operated by TiVo Inc.
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:17 PM.
OUR NETWORK: MyOpenRouter | TechLore | SansaCommunity | RoboCommunity | MediaSmart Home | Explore3DTV | Dijit Community | DVR Playground |