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Old 07-15-2007, 03:16 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam1115
Some are moving to 100% digital delivery, some are moving certain channels. But MOST cable companies still offer SIGNIFICANT content on analag. Also, MOST cable companies charge a LOT more for digital cable, cable cards, etc.

No way am I going to pay an extra $50/mo just to get the 'digital tier' to use my TiVo... Analog for the handful of cable channels I watch on occasion is fine. OTA-HD is all I need.
My mistake, I assumed that if I was decoding via CC than it had to be in an MPEG-2 transport stream. You are correct that occasionally with my cable provider I have to select the video quality which means that the TiVo analog tuner is tuning and encoding the stream.
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Old 07-15-2007, 03:25 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by sbiller
My mistake, I assumed that if I was decoding via CC than it had to be in an MPEG-2 transport stream. You are correct that occasionally with my cable provider I have to select the video quality which means that the TiVo analog tuner is tuning and encoding the stream.
Could they eliminate the OTA High Def tuner and still maintain the ability to tune and encode cable provided SD analog channels?
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Old 07-15-2007, 03:28 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcady
This is on Time Warner Cable in Dallas, not some rinky-dink cable company.
My cable company was recently renamed: Non-Rinky-Dink Spite the CableCARD User with Analog When Everyone Else Gets Digital Cable
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Old 07-15-2007, 03:44 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by moyekj
If you currently have a cable company set top box (or know someone who has one) you can check the box diagnostics while tuned to channels in the analog lineup to see if they are digital or not. For example, if diagnostics report modulation scheme as QAM then you know they are digital. This is how I was originally building up my spreadsheet for my local headend (in my sig). For the Motorola DCTxxx or DCHxxx series you can find details here of getting to diagnostics:
http://replayguide.sourceforge.net/d...ips_and_Tricks

Obviously with the S3 it's a lot easier to tell from the diagnostics menu if you are tuned to digital or analog stations (among other methods).
Thanks for the tip. I'm using a Motorola DCT-6412; if it's showing QAM 256 for the channel in the inband status, that means the channel is digital? If that's correct. then I guess CCast must be doing all digital simulcast here.
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Old 07-15-2007, 04:19 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by mike_camden
Thanks for the tip. I'm using a Motorola DCT-6412; if it's showing QAM 256 for the channel in the inband status, that means the channel is digital? If that's correct. then I guess CCast must be doing all digital simulcast here.
For the most part, if you have Comcast, you have digital simulcast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam1115
Some are moving to 100% digital delivery, some are moving certain channels. But MOST cable companies still offer SIGNIFICANT content on analag. Also, MOST cable companies charge a LOT more for digital cable, cable cards, etc.
Just because cable companies offer analog does not mean they don't also offer those channels in digital. In almost every market, save for Chicago, Comcast offers "extended basic" cable service in analog. However, they also offer that same service in digital for the same price (or $1 more, depending on market). If you use an analog tuner, you get the analog versions; if use a STB, you get the digital versions.

All cable companies are moving to digital because that is the only way they can compete with satellite.
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Old 07-15-2007, 04:21 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_camden
Thanks for the tip. I'm using a Motorola DCT-6412; if it's showing QAM 256 for the channel in the inband status, that means the channel is digital? If that's correct. then I guess CCast must be doing all digital simulcast here.
Yes, if it says QAM 256 (or QAM anything) then it's digital. Just note that there are 2 pages of info - one for each tuner. If the information doesn't include the channel number you can change the channel on one tuner and go back to same diagnostics page and see which frequency changed to determine which tuner corresponds to which page.
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Old 07-15-2007, 04:28 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbiller
Could they eliminate the OTA High Def tuner and still maintain the ability to tune and encode cable provided SD analog channels?
OTA HD = Digital, so yes.

But it would be stupid.
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Old 07-15-2007, 04:32 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Arcady
Many of the channels in my "digital" tier (over 70 channels in fact) are actually analog. This is on Time Warner Cable in Dallas, not some rinky-dink cable company.
Time Warner already does digital simulcast in almost every part of the Dallas / FW area. If you don't get digital simulcast on your Series3, that is probably a headend configuration problem.

TWC has announced plans to have digital simulcast up in ~100% of its markets (with some SDV in about 75%) by January 2008. That SDV does pose a problem for the Series3, but Verizon FiOS should be available in much of N. Texas by end 2007.

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Old 07-15-2007, 04:49 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Neenahboy
So what are the odds on them screwing us with no HDMI on the Lite as a model differentiation tactic?
Zero. The content cartels want everything to be HDMI. They'd like to see component phased out.
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Old 07-15-2007, 08:42 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkdtv
For the most part, if you have Comcast, you have digital simulcast.

Just because cable companies offer analog does not mean they don't also offer those channels in digital. In almost every market, save for Chicago, Comcast offers "extended basic" cable service in analog. However, they also offer that same service in digital for the same price (or $1 more, depending on market). If you use an analog tuner, you get the analog versions; if use a STB, you get the digital versions.

All cable companies are moving to digital because that is the only way they can compete with satellite.
You're (sort of) right that it appears they have dropped the price of digital. Used to be much more expensive than analog. Looks like here, digital cable is $49.99 a month, "Standard Cable" is $48.99. BUT, you can't get digital cable for $49.99. You need either a STB, that they will happily RENT to you for an ADDITIONAL fee ($9.95/mo) or a CableCARD, which costs a few bucks a month plus an installation fee.

So really to be fair, digital cable is $3-$10.95 a month more than analog PER OUTLET (so two TV's? Three?).

But then there's the fact that I have "Basic Cable", which means I get about 25-30 channels, but they won't sell me a cablecard or STB unless I up it to digital cable, which is $35/mo more! They won't even LET me get HBO unless I pay the additional $35/mo. I get all the channels I need, why would I pay so much to see pixilation instead of static on a handful of channels I hardly watch?
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Old 07-15-2007, 11:52 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkdtv
Time Warner already does digital simulcast in almost every part of the Dallas / FW area.
Not here. Every channel below 100 is analog, and any channel with the same content in the "digital tier" (above 100) is also analog, even on their STB and DVR boxes. I don't even have to look at info to see which are analog; the static in the picture is easy enough to see. This means that almost all of the most-watched cable channels (History, Sci Fi, USA, etc.) are analog, and stupid junk like shopping channels and spanish stuff are digital.
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Old 07-16-2007, 01:19 AM   #102
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It seems to me that an awful big assumption is being made that this new unit will not have an analog tuner.
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Old 07-16-2007, 01:55 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2
It seems to me that an awful big assumption is being made that this new unit will not have an analog tuner.
+1
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Old 07-16-2007, 07:04 AM   #104
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I thought someone earlier mentioned the savings would come from not having an MPEG encoder, which is needed for analog recording. So if they don't have an MPEG encoder there would be no point in having an analog tuner.
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Old 07-16-2007, 07:44 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt
I thought someone earlier mentioned the savings would come from not having an MPEG encoder, which is needed for analog recording. So if they don't have an MPEG encoder there would be no point in having an analog tuner.
I think the general consensus is that the unit would most likely need an analog tuner w/ associated MPEG encoder to support the current analog channels being delivered by many service providers.

I haven't seen an estimate as to the cost of analog tuning and MPEG encoding. It might be interesting to see a price breakdown of the piece parts that make up an S3.
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Old 07-16-2007, 09:39 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2
It seems to me that an awful big assumption is being made that this new unit will not have an analog tuner.
I think better cost savings would come from having a standard box and motherboard design that would support either S2 or S3 feature set depending on the chipset put on the motherboard. use the same analog encoder/decoder and tuner setup for both and you buy in bulk. Then add on the digital tuner and OTA, inputs/outputs associated with that. Viola a low cost S3 that comes down the same factory line as a S2 DT, just specced out differently.

Getting it on the same factory line is what brings the cost way down versus the current S3 and its high end and very different factory line requirements.
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Old 07-16-2007, 10:44 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbiller
Could they eliminate the OTA High Def tuner and still maintain the ability to tune and encode cable provided SD analog channels?
Technically yes, but then they'd have an S2 DT, since the digital OTA tuner is the same chunk of silicon used to tune digital cable, which means you lose that if you eliminate digital OTA to save costs.
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Old 07-16-2007, 11:26 AM   #108
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Wouldn't a lot of savings be streamlining the manufacturing from a process standpoint? Using more 'common' components to replace components that are expensive / hard to find? Maybe reworking the mainboard to do the same thing a little bit differently to cut manufacturing costs? A cheaper remote and chassis? Kind of like the difference between a 240 and 540 series 2?

I mean, I seriously doubt their going to start from the top and redesign the whole thing so they can lop off some useful features... The software costs to do this would make it easy for this to not make sense.
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Old 07-16-2007, 11:52 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrm01
A major CE retailer was just notified that the new Tivo-lite will be in the store the week of August 5-12. It is currently named "Fusion", but will likely just be called Tivo HD. The specs on it are:

price: $299
source: Digital cable, digital antenna
NO THX certification
Dual tuner
Storage: 20 hrs HD, 180 hrs. SD
No front panel display
Standard remote

Support for SP, WL, KidZone, Online scheduling, Digital music player, Digital photo viewer, Home Movie sharing, Amazon Unbox, Univ Swivel Search

Both the S3 and Lite will have TTG and MRV PRIOR TO THE END OF 2007.


Based on this it seems the cost savings are:

1/2 the storage
No THX
Digital-only tuners
No front panel display
Standard remote (I assume this means the peanut)
I beleive cablecard approval means it MUST support analog cable.
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Old 07-16-2007, 11:54 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Neenahboy
So what are the odds on them screwing us with no HDMI on the Lite as a model differentiation tactic?
zero

cable HD could be worthless at sme point without HDMI.

(less sure of this but cablecard approval may also require either hdmi or firewire...)

Last edited by MichaelK : 07-16-2007 at 12:20 PM.
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Old 07-16-2007, 12:28 PM   #111
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I beleive cablecard approval means it MUST support analog cable.
not an expert but the cablecard testing procedure can be found here:
http://www.cablelabs.com/udcp/downlo...I05-040629.pdf

on page 158 it says (CORE Interoperability Tests) :

Quote:
"6. Verify the ability of CableCARD, host combination to tune clear analog channels.
Reference CA system for channel map information and tune to an analog service, verify
audio and video on UDRD."
sure sounds like they expect cablecard devices to tune analog channels.

(again not an expert so feel free to explain how I'm wrong)
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Old 07-16-2007, 12:40 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by MichaelK
sure sounds like they expect cablecard devices to tune analog channels.
Yes.
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Old 07-16-2007, 12:57 PM   #113
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So since it has to do analog cable the only thing they MIGHT have left out is OTA NTSC tuning. Since I donít think there are yet ATSC tuner chips that donít include the NTSC tuner, I suspect it will have that too.

They might leave it out as a differentiator but I donít know why they would if they already have the code for the S3.
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Old 07-16-2007, 01:03 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by MichaelK
sure sounds like they expect cablecard devices to tune analog channels.

(again not an expert so feel free to explain how I'm wrong)
a note just for clarity - the cable card actually just takes the digital stream off the cable and decrypts it, if needed. then a digital tuner would find the correct part of the digital stream to tune in and provide to the DVR for processing.
I do not think the analog comes through the cable card but even if it does there is an analog tuner that will find the correct frequency and tune that in to provide to the DVR for processing.

so cable cards on their own do not gain access to analog or for that matter digital channels. it is a tuner inside the device that will get the specific channel.

but the statement is correct - if you are cable card certified, the device needs to have an analog tuner
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Old 07-16-2007, 01:12 PM   #115
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My question is, will this "Lite" version include the hardware to handle switched video SDV? If not, I'll be waiting till S4.
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Old 07-16-2007, 01:20 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Gene S
My question is, will this "Lite" version include the hardware to handle switched video SDV? If not, I'll be waiting till S4.
Recommend that you review this thread
SDV Sightings

I think they are working on methods to be compatible with SDV but its a crapshoot when and if it will be supported.
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Old 07-16-2007, 01:25 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Gene S
My question is, will this "Lite" version include the hardware to handle switched video SDV? If not, I'll be waiting till S4.
It would be pretty pathetic if it didn't at least have some sort of upgrade-path in place.

But this IS TiVo (the company) we're talking about so I don't rule anything out.
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Old 07-16-2007, 03:10 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by MickeS
But this IS [a cablelabs issue] we're talking about so [there isn't a standard in place that TiVo could adopt if they wanted to]
FYP.
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Old 07-17-2007, 05:48 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Adam1115
Wouldn't a lot of savings be streamlining the manufacturing from a process standpoint?
Savings isn't the whole issue, though. They not only need to cut costs, but they also need to provide an appropriate value/price differentiation between the current S3 and S3 Lite.
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Old 07-17-2007, 10:10 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by MichaelK
So since it has to do analog cable the only thing they MIGHT have left out is OTA NTSC tuning. Since I donít think there are yet ATSC tuner chips that donít include the NTSC tuner, I suspect it will have that too.

They might leave it out as a differentiator but I donít know why they would if they already have the code for the S3.
OTA NTSC tuning is just software (the hardware being there for analog cable). There is no cost savings eliminating that. They have to "cut" either hardware or features that cost licensing fees.
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