TiVo Community
TiVo Community
TiVo Community
Go Back   TiVo Community > Main TiVo Forums > TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs
TiVo Community
Reply
Forum Jump
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-07-2008, 10:49 AM   #1111
dig_duggler
losing enthusiasm
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 835
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyts View Post
That's unlikely, if their engineering department is any good. SDV only pays off if you choose the channels well--"switching" highly popular channels that will virtually be viewed by someone in every network segment 24/7/365 doesn't help.
I don't know enough about it, but that's what the technical manager (who seemed to know his stuff as much as you can gather in a 3 minute conversation) told me. His words were approximately "eventually we'd like to go all SDV. That's the goal."

Last edited by dig_duggler : 03-07-2008 at 11:37 AM. Reason: quote
dig_duggler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2008, 04:05 PM   #1112
bicker
Gruff
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 9,117
Yeah, he didn't mean it literally.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bicker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2008, 08:10 PM   #1113
lrhorer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: San Antonio, Texas, USA
Posts: 6,858
Take it literally

Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker View Post
Yeah, he didn't mean it literally.
He probably does, although "eventually" is a really big word. There are cost and management efficiencies involved in having a single platform for deployment. Add to that the fact that volume drives economies of scale, and at some point is not unlikely the cost to the MSO for delivering an SDV QAM is no higher than delivering a static QAM. At that point, it doesn't matter whether SDV is more efficient for all channels, or not.

I also suspect the market share of every individual channel will continue to shrink until eventually there are very few, if any, channels whose market share will guarantee them a slot in any given node at any given time. Beyond that point, every channel will benefit from SDV. Somewhere below a 1% market share, a channel will no longer delivered to the majority of nodes in the system at any given time.

Frankly,I hope that day comes very, very soon.
lrhorer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2008, 11:15 AM   #1114
moyekj
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Mission Viejo, CA
Posts: 8,876
Now it's official. Add Cox, Orange County, CA to the list of providers deploying SDV. The deployment goes live April 8 2008. See:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...24#post6059324
Quote:
Originally Posted by nocturne1
Finally got some announcement from Cox about SDV and Cablecards. Basically, they are saying that SDV is going live on 4/8, and a digital STB will be required to see the following channels:

- Pay per view channels
- Paquete Latino Tier
- Foreign Language Channels - TV-5, ART, RAE, ZEE TV, The Filipino Channel, TV Japan, TV Asia, and CTI Zhong Tian
- The following digital cable channels - CCTV-9, California Channel, CMT Pure Country, CSPAN2, CSPAN3, Fine Living, Fit TV, Fox Reality, Fuel, FUSE, Game Show Network, G4TechTV, HRTV, Jewelry TV, Leased Access (109), Shop NBC, TVG, and WeatherScan Local.

It also states that new channels added to Digital and HD may not be available to cablecard customers. They are offering a digital or HD receiver for $1.99 a month for the first year (normally $5.25/mo). This offer is only good through 6/30/08.

No mention of any tuning resolver, although I doubt that they'd ever put it in a mass-mailer like this anyways.
In addition to the above, there are already 9 HD channels as well that cannot be viewed with UDCPs:
CNNHD, DISCOVERY HD, GOLF/VS HD, NFLHD, TLCHD, FOODHD, HGTVHD, HISTORYHD, APLHD
__________________
Roamio Pro (GigE)
Elite (MoCA)
Premiere (MoCA adapter)
Cox - Motorola CableCards & TAs
Slingbox 350 via TiVo Mini & TiVo Stream for remote viewing

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
moyekj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2008, 02:34 PM   #1115
lrhorer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: San Antonio, Texas, USA
Posts: 6,858
Switching

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrm01 View Post
In reference to the diagram: The switching is not done at the head-end, nor the distribution hub, it is done at the Optical Node, the point where fiber ends and coax begins.
I know this was an old post, but I just now spotted it. This is false. The equipment which handles the switching is quite large - typically it occupies several 7' relay racks. The node is the size of a bread-box, and either hangs off a telephone pole or else sits in side a pedestal. Most CATV companies use a pedestal which is smaller than a doghouse to house a node, unless they collocate the power supply with the node. The node does nothing at all other than convert the signal from optical to RF.
lrhorer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2008, 03:08 PM   #1116
lrhorer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: San Antonio, Texas, USA
Posts: 6,858
San Antonio Lineup

Just FYI Here's San Antonio's current lineup. 'Lots and lots of SDV, but only a few in which I'm really interested. Still, there are half a dozen or so HD SDV channels I'd like to get (Discover HD, A&E HD, Animal Planet, National Geographic, etc.)

* = SDV + = Non-SDV HD

2 - 76 Analog

77 TV Guide Network
80 News 4 WOAI Weather Plus
81 LATV
92 KLRN Encore
93 V-me
94 KLRN Create
98 Educational Access
99 Nickelodeon
100 HD Movies On Demand*
101 HD Showcase On Demand*
104 NBC - WOAI HD +
105 CBS-KENS 5 HD +
107 My Network TV - KMYS HD +
108 PBS - KLRN HD +
111 FOX - KABB HD +
112 ABC - KSAT HD +
113 TBS HD*
115 The Science Channel HD*
122 NHL HD*
124 ESPN HD +
125 ESPN2 HD*
127 TNT HD +
128 A&E HD*
129 The Discovery Channel HD*
130 HD Theater +
134 MHD*
135 CNN HD*
136 The Weather Channel HD*
147 Food Network HD*
149 TLC HD*
150 Fox Sports Net HD/Special Events--Channel 150 is not a full-time channel. Programming will be televised as scheduled. +
154 Fox Business Network HD*
155 Animal Planet HD*
157 National Geographic HD*
160 MOJO (NBA TV HD pre-empted on MOJO) +
162 HDNet +
163 HDNET Movies +
164 Universal HD +
166 LMN HD*
167 HGTV HD*
168 Versus/Golf Channel HD*
174 The History Channel HD*
180 HBO HD +
181 HBO West HD*
182 Showtime HD +
183 Showtime HD West*
184 Cinemax HD +
185 Cinemax HD West*
186 The Movie Channel HD +
187 Starz HD +
188 Starz West HD*
192 - 199 HD Movies on Demand*
200 Sí TV (Espanol)
201 FLIX
203 Ovation
204 Boomerang
205 NBA TV
206 Biography
207 G4-video game television
208 Speed Channel
209 Outdoor Channel
210 Do it Yourself Network
211 SoapNet
212 CNBC World
213 Investigation Discovery
214 Fine Living
215 The Science Channel
216 Discovery Kids
217 The Military Channel
218 Nicktoons
219 FitTV
220 Discovery Home Channel
221 VH1 Classic
222 BET on Jazz
223 Fox Soccer Channel
224 Toon Disney
225 BBC America
226 Fuse
227 GSN
228 Lifetime Real Women
229 The N
230 Noggin
231 MTV2
232 Texas Cable News
233 SLEUTH
234 Current
235 Bloomberg TV
236 CSPAN 3
237 History International
238 Great American Country
239 Nick Too
242 AmericanLife TV Network
244 CNN International
245 Fox Business Network
248 Fox Reality
249 LOGO
256 ESPN Classic
257 ESPNews
258 ESPNU
259 ESPN Deportes
260 FCS Atlantic
261 FCS Central
262 FCS Pacific
263 The Tennis Channel
264 FUEL
265 CSTV*
266 NHL Network
267 Sportsman Channel*
279 V-me (Español)
280 Canal Sur (Español)
281 Video Rola (Español)
282 Cine Latino (Español)
283 Discovery en Español
284 ¡SORPRESA! (Espanol)
285 MTV Tr3s* (Español)
286 Cartoon Network en Español
287 Boomerang en Español
288 Fox Sports en Español
290 CNN en Español
291 HTV (Español)
292 Infinito (Español)
293 La Familia Cosmovision (Español)
294 HITN* (Español)
295 EWTN en Español*
296 Toon Disney En Espanol*
297 Shop Latino
300 Encore
301 Encore Love
302 Encore Westerns
303 Encore Mystery
304 Encore Action
305 Encore Drama
306 Encore Wam
307 Fox Movie Channel
308 Independent Film Channel
309 Sundance Channel
310 Starz
311 Starz Edge
312 Starz InBlack
313 Starz Kids & Family
314 Starz Cinema
315 Starz West*
316 Starz Edge West*
317 Starz InBlack West*
318 Starz Comedy
319 Starz Cinema West*
320 HBO East
321 HBO 2 East
322 HBO Signature East
323 HBO Family East
324 HBO Comedy East
325 HBO Zone East
326 HBO West*
327 HBO 2 West*
328 HBO Signature West*
329 HBO Family West*
330 HBO Comedy West*
331 HBO Zone West*
332 HBO Latino East (Español)
333 HBO Latino West (Español)*
338 WMAX East
339 OuterMAX East
340 Cinemax East
341 MoreMAX East
342 ActionMAX - East
343 ThrillerMAX East*
344 Cinemax West*
345 MoreMAX West*
346 ActionMAX West*
347 ThrillerMAX West
348 @MAX East
349 5StarMAX East
350 Showtime East
351 Showtime 2 East
352 Showtime Showcase East
353 Showtime Extreme East
354 Showtime Beyond East
355 Showtime West*
356 Showtime 2 West*
357 Showtime Showcase West*
358 Showtime Extreme West*
359 Showtime Beyond West*
361 Showtime Next East
362 Showtime Women East
363 Showtime Family Zone East
365 TMC East
366 TMC XTRA East
367 TMC West*
368 TMC XTRA West*
380 HBO HD +
381 Showtime HD +
382 Cinemax HD +
383 Starz HD +
384 TMC HD +
385 HBO West HD*
386 Showtime West HD*
387 Cinemax West HD*
388 Starz West HD*
401 - 490 Music Choice
492 TBN - KHCE
495 The Word Network
499 Pay-Per-View Special Events HD
500 Pay-Per-View Movie Previews
501 - 508 Pay-Per-View Events
509 - 523 Pay-Per-View & MOD Movies
540 Playboy TV
541 Playboy en Español
542 TEN
545 Rendezvous On Demand
546 Adult On Demand I
600 NBA League Pass Preview Channel
601 - 609 NBA League Pass
612 NBA League Pass HD
620 - 625 ESPN Game Plan
627 - 630 MLB Extra Innings
631 - 640 NHL Center Ice/MLB Extra Innings
650 - 655 ESPN Full Court
660 - 663 MLS Direct Kick
701 TV Japan*
705 SBTN*
711 Zee TV*
712 TV Asia*
715 DEUTSCHE WELLE - TV*
716 DW-One*
720 The Filipino Channel*
800 Hollywood Celebrity Products
801 Shop Latino
802 Gems TV
803 Jewelry Television
804 The Jewelry Channel
805 Shop At Home
806 America Auction Network
807 Cable Response TV
808 TVSS
810 Celebrity Shopping
811 Access TV
902 Movies On Demand: Classic*
903 Movies On Demand: Kids and Teens*
904 Movies On Demand: Action*
905 Movies On Demand: Comedy*
906 Movies On Demand: Thrillers*
907 Movies On Demand: Drama*
915 The Disney Channel On Demand*
916 International Movies On Demand*
917 Español On Demand*
918 Free Movies On Demand*
919 HD Movies On Demand*
920 Movies On Demand*
921 - 930 New Release Movies On Demand*
931 Howard TV On Demand*
932 Events On Demand*
933 Outrageous On Demand*
935 Adult On Demand II*
936 Rendezvous On Demand*
940 HBO On Demand*
941 Cinemax On Demand*
942 Showtime On Demand*
943 TMC On Demand*
945 Bevo On Demand*
951 Cutting Edge On Demand*
952 Lifestyle On Demand*
953 Entertainment On Demand*
954 A&E On Demand*
955 BBC America On Demand*
956 HD Showcase On Demand*
957 CNN Showcase On Demand*
959 Golf Channel On Demand*
960 San Antonio On Demand*
962 truTV On Demand*
963 Kids/Pre-School On Demand*
964 Kids On Demand*
966 Oxygen On Demand*
967 National Geographic On Demand*
968 Speed Channel On Demand*
970 Music On Demand*
973 Azteca America On Demand (Español)*
974 TV Guide Spot On Demand*
975 TNT On Demand*
976 TBS On Demand*
977 Español On Demand 2*
980 Music Choice On Demand: Pop & Rock*
981 Music Choice On Demand: Urban & Latin*
988 San Antonio On Demand*
989 News 4 WOAI On Demand*
990 Exercise TV On Demand*
992 Sportskool*
999 Movies On Demand Previews*
1301 Automotive On Demand*
1303 SI On Demand*
1305 Movie Trailers On Demand*
1307 Journey TV*
1308 Election '08 On Demand*
1310 Expo TV On Demand*
lrhorer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2008, 07:40 PM   #1117
JPALMETTO
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
Posts: 16
Class Action?

Has anyone heard of a class action to settle or at least speed up the resolution to these issues? It seems that both TiVo and cable providers, among others are to blame for selling devices that can not work together.
Thoughts?
JPALMETTO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2008, 07:56 PM   #1118
ah30k
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,206
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPALMETTO View Post
Has anyone heard of a class action to settle or at least speed up the resolution to these issues? It seems that both TiVo and cable providers, among others are to blame for selling devices that can not work together.
Thoughts?
I think you should consult a lawyer and let us know how it goes. People may be interested in joining if you provide some details.
ah30k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2008, 09:06 PM   #1119
dswallow
Save the Moderatоr
 
dswallow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Long Branch, NJ, USA
Posts: 48,726
TC CLUB MEMBER
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPALMETTO View Post
Has anyone heard of a class action to settle or at least speed up the resolution to these issues? It seems that both TiVo and cable providers, among others are to blame for selling devices that can not work together.
Thoughts?
Considering it's expected in the second quarter of this year, do you honestly believe between lawyers, courts, appeals and foot dragging that anything could ever be accomplished in an adversarial manner in 3 months or less?
__________________
¯\_(ツ)_/¯****************
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
dswallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2008, 09:25 PM   #1120
ajwees41
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Omaha,NE
Posts: 1,050
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPALMETTO View Post
Has anyone heard of a class action to settle or at least speed up the resolution to these issues? It seems that both TiVo and cable providers, among others are to blame for selling devices that can not work together.
Thoughts?
I haven't heard of cable companies selling devices only renting cable cards.
ajwees41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2008, 06:04 AM   #1121
mikeyts
Wireless Wiseguy
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 2,121
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPALMETTO View Post
Has anyone heard of a class action to settle or at least speed up the resolution to these issues? It seems that both TiVo and cable providers, among others are to blame for selling devices that can not work together.
Thoughts?
Yours is about the 500th post I've read suggesting a class action. You should do a search of all TiVo Community forums for the phrase "class action"--I'll bet that all of the people who've suggested it here would make a significant class if they bound together . They're due to start distributing the Tuning Resolver solution sometime in the second quarter of this year; we should wait to see if they fail to make this deadline or if they try to unreasonably profit from our being forced to use the TR before considering suit.
__________________
Mike Scott

"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
" -- hookbill
mikeyts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2008, 06:26 AM   #1122
bicker
Gruff
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 9,117
Well, I wouldn't be surprised if the tuning resolver doesn't make that June 30 date. However, you cannot even begin to expect any lawyer to take the idea of a class action lawsuit seriously until a few months after that. Even then, it is going to be hard to establish standing. At this point, consumers have been given nothing in return for consideration that would establish standing for them as plaintiffs. TiVo's device is doing what it should. The cable company's service is doing what it should. Unless the FCC acts against the cable companies, there is no viable avenue there.

So the only even quasi-rational approach is to sue the FCC.

Good luck.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bicker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2008, 11:19 AM   #1123
logicman1
Registered User
 
logicman1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Carmel, NY
Posts: 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPALMETTO View Post
Has anyone heard of a class action to settle or at least speed up the resolution to these issues? It seems that both TiVo and cable providers, among others are to blame for selling devices that can not work together.
Thoughts?
Lawyers get paid by the hour. I don't necessarily see "speed up" fitting into the equation.
logicman1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2008, 12:18 PM   #1124
Elementalism
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 6
Well today was the first I had heard about SDV. I havent noticed anything on Charter in the Albertville area of Minnesota. But hopefully the dongle will be out before they decide to implement anything.

TiVoHD is great so far!

btw does this change deny access to people who rent DVR's from the cable company? Are the cable companies going to have to replace each DVR to work with SDV?
Elementalism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2008, 01:05 PM   #1125
MichaelK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NJ
Posts: 7,299
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrhorer View Post
I know this was an old post, but I just now spotted it. This is false. The equipment which handles the switching is quite large - typically it occupies several 7' relay racks. The node is the size of a bread-box, and either hangs off a telephone pole or else sits in side a pedestal. Most CATV companies use a pedestal which is smaller than a doghouse to house a node, unless they collocate the power supply with the node. The node does nothing at all other than convert the signal from optical to RF.
Curious-

Can you explain further?

Is there a home run fiber from each node then to the head end? Or is there like a single fiber broken into bands and each node gets delivered a segment?

I guess it works the same for SDV as they do internet? But I wouldn’t know how that works either.
MichaelK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2008, 01:08 PM   #1126
MichaelK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NJ
Posts: 7,299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elementalism View Post
...
TiVoHD is great so far!

btw does this change deny access to people who rent DVR's from the cable company? Are the cable companies going to have to replace each DVR to work with SDV?
Likely the cable company dvr’s with their built in 2-way communications for vod and ppv and the like can get software updates in the middle of the night to work just fine.

mahybe some old first generation units wouldn't be able but even that I doubt.
MichaelK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2008, 01:35 PM   #1127
Elementalism
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelK View Post
Likely the cable company dvr’s with their built in 2-way communications for vod and ppv and the like can get software updates in the middle of the night to work just fine.

mahybe some old first generation units wouldn't be able but even that I doubt.
I didnt read through the entire thread but what is stopping the cablecards in the Tivo's from doing the same? When i browse the options of the Cablecard one of the them is "two way communication" which is disabled. But i am assuming it should be something that can be turned on?
Elementalism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2008, 01:45 PM   #1128
mikeyts
Wireless Wiseguy
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 2,121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elementalism View Post
I didnt read through the entire thread but what is stopping the cablecards in the Tivo's from doing the same? When i browse the options of the Cablecard one of the them is "two way communication" which is disabled. But i am assuming it should be something that can be turned on?
Your assumption is wrong. Neither TiVo S3 or TiVo HD is physically capable of two-way communication

You didn't just not read through the entire thread, you apparently failed to read the first post. It's a very carefully composed introduction to this issue (the definition of a FAQ) and it says exactly what I just said under the bold heading "What does this mean for Series 3 and TiVo HD?". If you're interested in this topic, you should go back and read it thoroughly. If you have questions after that, we'll be happy to try to answer them .
__________________
Mike Scott

"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
" -- hookbill
mikeyts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2008, 01:59 PM   #1129
Rayd8tor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: San Antonio,Tx
Posts: 19
Angry TWC San Antonio

[quote=lrhorer;6061750]Just FYI Here's San Antonio's current lineup. 'Lots and lots of SDV, but only a few in which I'm really interested. Still, there are half a dozen or so HD SDV channels I'd like to get (Discover HD, A&E HD, Animal Planet, National Geographic, etc.)

* = SDV + = Non-SDV HD

2 - 76 Analog

77 TV Guide Network
80 News 4 WOAI Weather Plus
81 LATV
92 KLRN Encore
93 V-me
94 KLRN Create
98 Educational Access
99 Nickelodeon
100 HD Movies On Demand*
101 HD Showcase On Demand*
104 NBC - WOAI HD +
105 CBS-KENS 5 HD +
107 My Network TV - KMYS HD +
108 PBS - KLRN HD +
111 FOX - KABB HD +
112 ABC - KSAT HD +
113 TBS HD*
115 The Science Channel HD*
122 NHL HD*
124 ESPN HD +
125 ESPN2 HD*
127 TNT HD +
128 A&E HD*
129 The Discovery Channel HD*
130 HD Theater +
134 MHD*
135 CNN HD*
136 The Weather Channel HD*
147 Food Network HD*
149 TLC HD*
150 Fox Sports Net HD/Special Events--Channel 150 is not a full-time channel. Programming will be televised as scheduled. +
154 Fox Business Network HD*
155 Animal Planet HD*
157 National Geographic HD*
160 MOJO (NBA TV HD pre-empted on MOJO) +
162 HDNet +
163 HDNET Movies +
164 Universal HD +
166 LMN HD*
167 HGTV HD*
168 Versus/Golf Channel HD*
174 The History Channel HD*
QUOTE]

Bummer. Just got my new TivoHD today, and TWC was coming to install the cards tomorrow evening. I thought only 2 channels I subscribe to were on SDV, but according to your list most of them are. That sucks royally. I just get the tivo and now more than like will be stuck with the POS SA8300. Argh. I can't win here. I'm assuming you tested this list against what you actually get on your box which means that the TWC web page is WAY WRONG on their SDV channel listing. But that should not suprise me.

Brian
Rayd8tor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2008, 07:51 PM   #1130
Firekite
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 63
Arrow

Bah! I just did the same thing.

We'll see. Someone please report back regarding the results, whether all those channels are really being denied to CableCard users.

How is that even legal?
Firekite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2008, 10:25 PM   #1131
mikeyts
Wireless Wiseguy
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 2,121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firekite View Post
Bah! I just did the same thing.

We'll see. Someone please report back regarding the results, whether all those channels are really being denied to CableCard users.

How is that even legal?
It's legal, or rather it's not prohibited by any regulation. This stuff started being deployed over a year ago in various markets (mostly by TWC) and there have been copious complaints to the FCC by people who post here, to no avail. It's also difficult to figure out what cable providers will do to compete with the mountain of HD channels being offered by satellite without resorting to the use of SDV, leaving you with two choices: no SDV and no more new HD channels, or new HD channels via SDV that you can't directly access with unidirectional CableCARD devices.

You guys are very late to this party. Someone first noticed the encroachment of SDV in your area last April and there was a discussion of it in this thread.

Take heart, though--the cable industry and TiVo have promised a solution that will enable current TiVo S3 and TiVo HD models to access SDV channels called the "Tuning Resolver". This is an external device which will be connected on the cable between the wall and TiVo and additionally connected to TiVo via USB. It's expected to become available sometime in the 2nd quarter of this year (which will start next month). We can only wait and see.
__________________
Mike Scott

"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
" -- hookbill
mikeyts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2008, 02:00 AM   #1132
bicker
Gruff
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 9,117
Everything the FCC has done has made it clear that the separable security mandate was directed solely to benefit consumer electronics makers, providing many the ability to enter a market that previously was closed to them. Every time folks try to cast the separable security mandate as something directed to benefit consumers, the reality of how the FCC has enforced it (or not) belies such assertions. The FCC has provided a competitive market for consumers through other means (really, through their fostering of the satellite suppliers).
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bicker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2008, 11:27 AM   #1133
Firekite
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyts View Post
You guys are very late to this party.
That may be, but until fairly recently there was no HD TiVo offering, and when they were introduced, they were prohibitively priced, so I've been stuck with the god-awful Scientific Atlanta junk. I wouldn't have bothered switching to TiVo if it had just remained god-awful but functional. After the second 8300 DVR continued to have fairly constant audio stuttering and loss, I've given up. A friend of mine just got a Series 2 TiVo, and it seems to be fantastic (except no HD), so I've ordered a Series 3 and hope this mythical dongle arrives post-haste. As I've just now (as in yesterday) started digging into it, I've just now discovered all the BS associated with it.

And yes, Bicker, you've been a constant advocate for the cable companies and dismiss criticisms of the way they've handled their customers and the distinct lack of respect involved. I pay $191 every month to TWC for my phone, cable, and internet, and I specifically expect to NOT be bent over and sodomized for it if I dare to pay for and use superior hardware. Whether the FCC intended to benefit consumers or not is really beside the question when cable companies are violating the spirit (and sometimes the letter) of the law. Even if, as you claim, the separable security mandate were directed solely to benefit consumer electronics makers, I'm fairly certain that TiVo is EXACTLY one of those consumer electronics makers that shouldn't be strong-armed out of the market by the cable companies, replaced with their own proprietary, drastically inferior hardware. The FCC, as usual, has done a terrible job of protecting the consumer, We The People they're supposed to be serving watching out for in the first place, and arguments that they've provided a competitive market by artificially bolstering the satellite providers is neither relevant to the discussion and the problem nor even accurate in the first place. DTV prevents the use of TiVo altogether, and the only cable service provider is TWC, which has of course hamstrung the use of TiVo and such by a) making it a tremendous pain in the rear to use CableCARDS and even charging for their use (a fairly small amount, sure, but the use of their set-top box is free, and we're saving them even that) and b) switching to a different technology that prevents CableCARDS from being able to receive all the channels we as consumers pay to receive, and they've yet to provide any remedy or relief.

So yes, you can continue to being an advocate for the FCC and cable companies and continue to insist that we're all being unreasonable for expecting to receive some basic level of cooperation and the channels we've paid for, but it's likely you'll continue to be wrong.
Firekite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2008, 12:06 PM   #1134
bicker
Gruff
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 9,117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firekite View Post
Whether the FCC intended to benefit consumers or not is really beside the question when cable companies are violating the spirit (and sometimes the letter) of the law.
If they are, then prove it. I don't mean that argumentatively; I mean it literally. If what they're doing is a violation, get some entity, which is generally acknowledge in our society to be authoritative, to agree with you. That's the mechanism to effect change. I understand completely why you may be reticent to try -- because you figure it will be a waste of time, but (and this is the point I've been trying, but perhaps failing, to make) the fact that it will be a waste of time means that what they're doing isn't a violation. All of us here want things to be better for us TiVo owners. We wouldn't be here otherwise. However, that doesn't make our desires actuality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firekite View Post
Even if, as you claim, the separable security mandate were directed solely to benefit consumer electronics makers, I'm fairly certain that TiVo is EXACTLY one of those consumer electronics makers that shouldn't be strong-armed out of the market by the cable companies, replaced with their own proprietary, drastically inferior hardware.
This is the first really good point made in rebuttal to something I've posted in this thread, recently.

Guess who has standing to pursue the point you've made with the authorities: That's right: TiVo. The ball is in their court. We have no choice but to defer to their discretion with regard to how to pursue this, because they're the ones with standing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firekite View Post
The FCC, as usual, has done a terrible job of protecting the consumer, We The People they're supposed to be serving watching out for in the first place
That isn't true. The FCC is required to balance the needs of consumers and business, not favor consumers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firekite View Post
and arguments that they've provided a competitive market by artificially bolstering the satellite providers is neither relevant to the discussion and the problem
That would only be true if the FCC was supposed to favor consumers. They're not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firekite View Post
nor even accurate in the first place. <snip>
I'm interested in seeing your explanation of this. The statements that followed didn't seem to follow up on that assertion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firekite View Post
DTV prevents the use of TiVo altogether
And applying the separable security regulation to DBS would obviate that concern.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firekite View Post
So yes, you can continue to being an advocate for the FCC
WHOA!!!! I'm definitely NOT an advocate for the FCC. If anything, the opposite!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firekite View Post
and cable companies
And that's not even completely accurate; I'm an advocate for reality -- how things are. I don't mind change, but I object to folks fostering expectations in themselves or others that things are or necessarily must be different from how they really are. I'm not sure, but I think I could be very politically flexible, with regard to many things, basically being "okay" with however things go, within certain parameters, because I see the benefits each way has to offer, so my advocacy is not towards the left or the right but rather, explicitly, towards the middle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firekite View Post
and continue to insist that we're all being unreasonable for expecting to receive some basic level of cooperation and the channels we've paid for, but it's likely you'll continue to be wrong.
However, I'm not wrong. That's the point. I'm talking about reality, and every day you don't get what you want the truth of what I'm saying is underscored.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bicker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2008, 02:20 PM   #1135
Breadfan
Registered User
 
Breadfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Posts: 110
Shouldn't we at least get some kind of discount? As far as I can tell the ONLY difference on my cable bill is they deducted the box/DVR rental fee and added the CC fee. I'm paying the same price for programming as someone able to get more channels than I can.
Breadfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2008, 02:45 PM   #1136
JimboG
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyts View Post
It's also difficult to figure out what cable providers will do to compete with the mountain of HD channels being offered by satellite without resorting to the use of SDV, leaving you with two choices: no SDV and no more new HD channels, or new HD channels via SDV that you can't directly access with unidirectional CableCARD devices.
There's a third option. Cable companies could kill off analog channels and add far more linear HD channels without rate shaping or degrading those new HD channels. Comcast killed off almost all analog in Chicago and a Liberty Media-owned cable company in Puerto Rico did the same thing over a year ago.

The coming death of analog over the air television gives the cable companies ample cover to go all digital. If granny doesn't want to buy a new digital TV at Wal-mart, she will need a box of some kind. It could be a digital OTA box with $40 government subsidy, a leased digital box from the satellite company or a leased digital box from the local cable company. There really isn't any justification for wasting >450 MHz on crappy analog channels.
JimboG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2008, 03:37 PM   #1137
moyekj
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Mission Viejo, CA
Posts: 8,876
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimboG View Post
There's a third option. Cable companies could kill off analog channels and add far more linear HD channels without rate shaping or degrading those new HD channels. Comcast killed off almost all analog in Chicago and a Liberty Media-owned cable company in Puerto Rico did the same thing over a year ago.

The coming death of analog over the air television gives the cable companies ample cover to go all digital. If granny doesn't want to buy a new digital TV at Wal-mart, she will need a box of some kind. It could be a digital OTA box with $40 government subsidy, a leased digital box from the satellite company or a leased digital box from the local cable company. There really isn't any justification for wasting >450 MHz on crappy analog channels.
Some cable companies are actually using the fact that they still carry analog channels as a competitive advantage over Satellite. The fact that you can split the signal multiple times and easily distribute around the house without needing set tops at each end point is still pretty compelling. They have a very large customer base using lifeline or basic cable that do not subscribe to digital services, so they don't want to risk losing them either. Finally, once the analog OTA broadcasts cease to exist, they hope to pick up previously OTA analog only customers.
So there are some pretty compelling reasons for them to keep analog channels . IMO what they should do is to starting cutting out the least popular analog channels and eventually end up with a smaller core of analog channels which are the most popular ones.
__________________
Roamio Pro (GigE)
Elite (MoCA)
Premiere (MoCA adapter)
Cox - Motorola CableCards & TAs
Slingbox 350 via TiVo Mini & TiVo Stream for remote viewing

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
moyekj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2008, 05:39 PM   #1138
mikeyts
Wireless Wiseguy
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 2,121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firekite View Post
That may be, but until fairly recently there was no HD TiVo offering, and when they were introduced, they were prohibitively priced, so I've been stuck with the god-awful Scientific Atlanta junk.
When I said that you were late to the party, I meant the "TiVo users complaining about SDV" party. You guys were asking people in San Antonio to test their inability to receive TWC SDV channels on TiVo and report back here when that was confirmed a year or more ago. Old, old news that you're just now waking up and reading about. The people who participate in this thread are well aware of what's going on (as are TiVo and the other CE vendors and the FCC).
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker View Post
Guess who has standing to pursue the point you've made with the authorities: That's right: TiVo. The ball is in their court. We have no choice but to defer to their discretion with regard to how to pursue this, because they're the ones with standing.
It should be pointed out that TiVo has been trying to deal with this. They and other CE vendors got together with the cable industry and concocted the Tuning Resolver solution which will enable TiVo and any other unidrectional CableCARD device with upgradeable firmware and an unused USB connection to tune SDV channels (if it materializes, which many here endlessly speculate that it will not). A group of other CE vendors proposed a broader solution to the FCC called "Digital Cable Ready Plus" which would give light-weight access to a set of interactive services, specifically SDV, VOD and IPPV. "DCR+" would not help current TiVo S3 and TiVo HD owners, however. The cable industry and TiVo countered by proposing the use of the Tuning Resolver device, which they're going ahead to produce and offer without waiting for the FCC to rule on DCR+, using the fact that it takes the FCC nine months to a year to make a ruling on anything; if they implement the Tuning Resolver soon enough, it'll be being distributed before the FCC can render a decision on whether to require the development of DCR+.

Cable has been promoting a standard for interactive services involving Multi-stream CableCards (M-Cards), bidirectional host communication and a Java execution profile called OCAP (OpenCable Applications Platform). This "CableCARD V2" solution, collectively labelled "<tru2way>", is pretty costly to add to a device, prohibiting its implementation in low-cost televisions and STBs, which is why the CE OEMs have proposed DCR+. However, given DCR+, the CE OEMs have little incentive to implement <tru2way> in many products (or any, for that matter), which screws with the cable industry's plans, big time.

The National Cable and Telecommunications Association likes to point out that of the many millions of unidirectional CableCARD devices shipped, only a tad over 300,000 owners have chosen to use CableCARDs (the cable industry's own unsubtle discouragement of the their use has more than a little to do with that). It's less than 1% of all cable subscribers, and they're clearly willing to risk losing them all. (Note that TiVo Series3 and TiVo HD users are a subset of that fraction of a percent of cable subs). In the past model year, very few CE OEMs have elected to put CableCARD slots in their products, so as an issue support of CableCARDs in unidirectional host devices never became very important and its relevance is rapidly diminishing.
__________________
Mike Scott

"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
" -- hookbill
mikeyts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2008, 06:31 PM   #1139
Firekite
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyts View Post
You guys were asking people in San Antonio to test their inability to receive TWC SDV channels on TiVo and report back here when that was confirmed a year or more ago.
No, that's not quite right. I was asking to verify that the list of SDV channels they were given was accurate, that they really couldn't access those channels that were alleged to be SDV in our specific area.

Quote:
In the past model year, very few CE OEMs have elected to put CableCARD slots in their products, so as an issue support of CableCARDs in unidirectional host devices never became very important and its relevance is rapidly diminishing.
Currently my SA DVR is connecting out via HDMI to my Onkyo receiver, and from there the out is connected to my TV. Why wouldn't TiVo offer the option to receive the HDMI signal in the same way so that a generic set-top box would work for tuning via IR like some of the old-school setups? I understand you may lose the ability to tune to two channels at once, but still, even that would work in general, would it not?
Firekite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2008, 09:52 PM   #1140
mikeyts
Wireless Wiseguy
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 2,121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firekite View Post
No, that's not quite right. I was asking to verify that the list of SDV channels they were given was accurate, that they really couldn't access those channels that were alleged to be SDV in our specific area.
OK--still, it's old news and if you really want confirmation, you should probably start a new post or re-open this one. It is not on topic in this thread.
Quote:
Currently my SA DVR is connecting out via HDMI to my Onkyo receiver, and from there the out is connected to my TV. Why wouldn't TiVo offer the option to receive the HDMI signal in the same way so that a generic set-top box would work for tuning via IR like some of the old-school setups? I understand you may lose the ability to tune to two channels at once, but still, even that would work in general, would it not?
HDMI is an uncompressed high-volume transfer protocol (a 1080i image is something like 1.5 gigabits/sec or more, about 100 times as much information as is coming into the cable box for the displayed channel). Raw, this information would fill a 500GB drive in about 40 minutes and it would be challenging to stream it onto and off of an HDD at those speeds. Encoding it (back) into MPEG at that rate can be done but would be expensive. Some of it is also encrypted (if it was protected in its orignal MPEG form), and there is no protocol to authorize recordng encrypted HDMI. Essentially, it's not intended to be recorded. It's greatly preferable to have a CableCARD or CableCARD-like system with built-in access to SDV and other interactive services, which is what <tru2way> is. Unfortunately, TiVo HD and TiVo S3 were too early to incorporate the emerging <tru2way> standard, though TiVo apparently has an upcoming product that will be compliant. So, for the interrim, a Tuning Resolver device is planned to give TiVo S3, TiVo HD and possibly other unidirectional CableCARD devices the ability to tune SDV channels.
__________________
Mike Scott

"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
" -- hookbill

Last edited by mikeyts : 03-13-2008 at 07:50 AM.
mikeyts is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Forum Jump




Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Advertisements

TiVo Community
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skins by: Relivo Media

(C) 2013 Magenium Solutions - All Rights Reserved. No information may be posted elsewhere without written permission.
TiVo® is a registered trademark of TiVo Inc. This site is not owned or operated by TiVo Inc.
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:51 AM.
OUR NETWORK: MyOpenRouter | TechLore | SansaCommunity | RoboCommunity | MediaSmart Home | Explore3DTV | Dijit Community | DVR Playground |