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Old 02-27-2008, 02:59 PM   #1081
MichaelK
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If I recall the NCTA in respnse to tivo's repeated complaints about no m-cards said they expected availibility would be before the July 1, 2007 deadline (which to my knowledge said NOTHING about needing m-cards availible only that cable had to use cards of some sort themselves and they decided m-cards were best to deal with their own dvrs') . And then regardless they were not readily avilible in many places until much later in the year.


Too lazy to research so I could be wrong but that's my recollection of what really happened.
NCTA June 26,2006 status report to the FCC found here:
http://www.ncta.com/DocumentBinary.aspx?id=457

Quote:
Multistream CableCARDs. The Commission also asked for periodic reports on the
“effort to develop and deploy a multistream CableCARD.” As reported in our March 30, 2006
report, CableLabs has qualified a Multistream CableCARD device from CISCO/Scientific-
Atlanta.

...

It is expected that Multistream
CableCARDs will be available from major MSOs within the next few months.
At BEST the M-cards showed up on July 1, 2007 (had a few minutes to find the filing but not enough to scour the boards here for posts of people looking for cards after July1, 2007 which I think was common?) That IMHO is more then a "few months" from June 26, 2006.

I know there are frequently debates about what few and serveral mean, but I would guess most people think a year is more then a few months.
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Old 02-27-2008, 03:18 PM   #1082
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So? It was an estimate, and in the meantime they decided that they didn't really want to deploy M-Cards at all, preferring to to wait for DCAS, which they filed for and were denied. Stuff happens.

The point is that they had little motive to introduce M-Cards before the deadline. The FCC had no requirement that they introduce them, ever, just that they stop buying boxes to lease that didn't use some kind of separable security, M-Card being their best available alternative.

The Tuning Resolver, on the other hand, is something that they suggested as a solution of their own accord, which they're trying to present to the FCC as a fait accompli trump-card to CE's suggested DCR+ scheme. They have every incentive to get it out on time and depending upon how many resources they allocated to it, they've given themselves plenty of time.
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Old 02-27-2008, 03:49 PM   #1083
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So? It was an estimate, and in the meantime they decided that they didn't really want to deploy M-Cards at all, preferring to to wait for DCAS, which they filed for and were denied. Stuff happens.

The point is that they had little motive to introduce M-Cards before the deadline. The FCC had no requirement that they introduce them, ever, just that they stop buying boxes to lease that didn't use some kind of separable security, M-Card being their best available alternative.

The Tuning Resolver, on the other hand, is something that they suggested as a solution of their own accord, which they're trying to present to the FCC as a fait accompli trump-card to CE's suggested DCR+ scheme. They have every incentive to get it out on time and depending upon how many resources they allocated to it, they've given themselves plenty of time.
So the first "estimate" in a regulatory filing has less validity then some press release? The PR machine's spin holds more water then a filing to the federal government in your mind?

Second- the FCC does NOTHING fast in regards to cable and open access. - the law was passed over 10 years ago and the FCC gave cable delay after delay after delay. Didn't they get 2 years total delays on the July 2007 deadline for cable cards becasue they kept saying OCAP and/or downloadable security was the solution they were just about to get to time and again?

they've presented OCAP and downloadable security as the end all solution and gotten extension after extension to make those work so whats to stop them from doing something similar with the tuning resolver.

I dont think it's going to be years or anything but I dont trust the NCTA one bit to tell the truth about a date for the tuning resolver. So the folks guessing about year end for moto and some time after that for SA dont sound off the wall to me.

Just my 2 cents.

Luckily for me- so far my provider is SDV free. They have been purchased by comcast but we have Moto hardware around hear so I hope that by the time the borg take over and push sdv on the system that the tuning resolver is availible.
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Old 02-27-2008, 04:00 PM   #1084
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also want to throw out the only real reason the FCC cared about M-cards and made cable report on the progress was becasue tivo complained a bunch that 2 s-cards was such apain for a competing DVR. Now a primary reason for the tuning resolver is tivo's complaining about sdv too - there are others but tivo was probably one of the loudest- well now tivo is trying to play nice with them so I dont know that there is any major force from the fcc to do ANYTHING. COuld be I suppose but i really doubt it from the FCC at this point. They are too busy blocking the Sirius XM merger to care about SDV....
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Old 02-28-2008, 01:02 PM   #1085
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I got this list from a TWC tech today. These are SDV channels for the Albany, NY area:

/edit - sorry... this list is current as of 2/20/2008

Code:
Channel(s) Handled By SDV (86)

1
20 (WYPX)
110 Disney East
215 Discovery Health
375 (EWTN)
434 Turner Classic Movies
551 (Fox Business News)
570 CSPAN
575 CSPAN2
**675 (NHL)
677 (NBATV)
708 (HBO West)
709 (HBO2 West)
710 (HBO Signature West)
711 (HBO Family West)
712 (HBO Comedy West)
713 (HBO Zone West)
714 (HBO Latino West)
725 (Cinemax West)	 726 (More MAX West)
727 (Action MAX West)
728 (Thriller Max West)
747 (Showtime 2 West)
748 (Showtime 3 West)
749 (Showtime Extreme West)
750 (Showtime Beyond West)
754 (Showtime Next West)
755 (Showtime Family Zone West)
756 (Showtime Women West)
763 (TMC West)
764 (TWC Extra West)
776 Starz West
777 Starz Cinema West
788 Encore West
901 Univision
1107 TWTV7
1109 QVC
1115 Home Shopping Network	 1120 ShopNBC
1823 Weather Channel HD
1839 History Channel HD
1841 HGTV HD
1842 Food HD
1851 Fox Business News HD
1846 CNN Channel HD
1864 Lifetime Movie Network HD
1873 Versus/Golf Channel HD
** 1874 Outdoor Channel
** 1875 (NHL HD)
1876 National Geographic Channel HD
1890 Starz East HD
1981 Starz West HD
1910-1919 NBA League Pass
1930 thru 1943 NHL/MLB services
1950-1956 ESPN Game Plan

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Old 02-28-2008, 01:02 PM   #1086
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I have both an S3 Lifetime and a THD. I know this has been covered before, but is the "Tuning Resolver" needed for both HD TiVo types or just the S3?

In other words, does the THD have the updated hardware required to allow 2-Way Communication?

I for one would like to see M-Card's dual stream capability implemented on the S3. Comcast CT is whacking me for 2 Addl. Outlet fees for the S3. Should I call and bitch about this?
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Old 02-28-2008, 01:06 PM   #1087
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In other words, does the THD have the updated hardware required to allow 2-Way Communication?
You'll still need a tuning resolver/dongle/box/whatever. The THD (like the S3) does not do 2-way comm back to the headend.
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Old 02-28-2008, 02:38 PM   #1088
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You'll still need a tuning resolver/dongle/box/whatever. The THD (like the S3) does not do 2-way comm back to the headend.

Thanks! That's what I thought.
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Old 02-28-2008, 03:24 PM   #1089
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Well, I just finished an interesting phone conversation. I had emailed a couple of addresses at my cable provider blindly, just to make my own impassioned plea (don't take away any more channels! *sniff*) and got a call back from it to discuss. I don't think there was anything earth-shattering that he told me, but I did pick up a couple of at least mildly interesting nuggets from the conversation. One is that they're slightly renaming the device -- it's now to be called the "Tuning Adapter". That's "adapter" with an "E" not "adaptor" with an "O". This was apparently a very big issue that required a lot of discussion with very powerful people to reach a consensus regarding.

Also, he said the planned release date for this is the end of 2Q, 2008, "probably this summer". I asked the question (just to be sure) that we were talking calendar year, not fiscal, and he said that would make the most sense, since it involves lots of companies with presumably lots of fiscal years, so if things hold to their current plans, we'd be expecting availability in June.

Final bit is that his understanding is that the housing will be based on the set top box, rather than being a cable modem footprint. He also mentioned that the old "dongle" term made him think thumb drive, but that it wouldn't be that at all.

I know a lot of this is covered ground in the thread already, but it's kind of nice to hear the same story from a cable rep. I also know that I haven't provided any names or backup information, so please feel free to take it all with a grain of salt, or to take it not at all. I just hadn't asked whether it would be okay to post any of this, so I'd rather not be more specific just in the very unlikely circumstance that I shouldn't have repeated something. Not that there's anything particularly suspect there, but whatever. Feel free to dismiss if you wish, or take it for what it's meant to be: Confirmation that at least someone in cable-land is on the same general page as we are about when/how this is going to happen.
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Old 02-28-2008, 04:13 PM   #1090
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... One is that they're slightly renaming the device -- it's now to be called the "Tuning Adapter". That's "adapter" with an "E" not "adaptor" with an "O". This was apparently a very big issue that required a lot of discussion with very powerful people to reach a consensus regarding. ...
- I'm guessing the powerful people are attorneys afraid that the name Tuning Resolver might somehow leave their companies open to legal action by customers in some obscure way.
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Old 02-28-2008, 04:23 PM   #1091
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I've just been bitten by the dreaded SDV here in Fort Smith, Arkansas. Cox just added several new HD channels and I get none of them. I called to complain and was just told that without 2-way communication the cable cards just cannot get the new channels.

I'm pretty angry but the benefits I get from having TiVo outweigh having the extra HD channels.
That being said, if they had added the channels before I bought the TiVo a couple of months ago AND I had known about the whole SDV thing I probably would have stayed with the cable DVR until it was resolved.
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Old 02-28-2008, 06:01 PM   #1092
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[quote=FoxFireX;6029343]Well, I just finished an interesting phone conversation. I had emailed a couple of addresses at my cable provider blindly, just to make my own impassioned plea (don't take away any more channels! *sniff*) and got a call back from it to discuss.

What provider? Are you on a Motorola or Scientific Atlanta system?
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Old 02-28-2008, 06:26 PM   #1093
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Time Warner, and I believe we're running SA equipment.
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:40 PM   #1094
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Time Warner, and I believe we're running SA equipment.
Excellent... me too... I believe this is the first mention of the tuning resolver errr... tuning 'adapter' and a potential date from anyone at a cableco using SA equipment. Maybe there is hope....
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Old 02-29-2008, 09:16 AM   #1095
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I sent an e-mail to Cox the other day to complain about this and the girl who responded said she understood my frustration because she had the same thing happen to her. Actually she said she had been assured that the cable card would work the same as a box and then found out differently later.
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Old 02-29-2008, 02:19 PM   #1096
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Well, I just finished an interesting phone conversation.
Would you mind either setting your "Location:" setting, or mentioning your location in your postings? There is very little useful information if you don't let us know who your provider is and what community you're in.

Thank you.
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Old 02-29-2008, 06:08 PM   #1097
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Location updated and provider mentioned upthread. I know I didn't give a lot of details, but it's mostly because I didn't have a whole lot to give. There were a couple of bits that were specific to my area, but I tried to only bother mentioning things that were more generally applicable.
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Old 03-05-2008, 04:22 PM   #1098
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Would this work?

Can someone please clarify whether SDV completely screws CableCard devices, or only partially. By that I mean, will an HD TiVo in Austin never be able to receive any channels which are switched, or would it only be able to receive them if they were currently being served up (i.e. had been recently requested by a two-way device on the same hub)?

The reason I ask is that I'm wondering if it might be possible to kludge together a kind of ersatz "resolver" - actually more of a "reserver" - using an S2 TiVo and a non-DVR STB on the same cable drop as an HD TiVo, with the S2 set to record a minute or so of each of the limited number of channels that a household actually watches, on a rotating basis, thus keeping all of them actively served up at all times. Would an HD TiVo then be able to find them via Guided Setup, and be able to tune them back in in those same carriers when they were needed?
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Old 03-05-2008, 04:29 PM   #1099
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Eccles, You will never (edit - see two posts down) be able to tune them even if they are currently on. See the thread on Brighthouse, FL which already removed the channels from the CableCARD channel map in preparation for going SDV. They can't get the channels now and they aren't even switched yet.

Last edited by ah30k : 03-05-2008 at 04:40 PM.
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Old 03-05-2008, 04:33 PM   #1100
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Eccles, You will never be able to tune them even if they are currently on. See the thread on Brighthouse, FL which already removed the channels from the CableCARD channel map in preparation for going SDV. They can't get the channels now and they aren't even switched yet.
Bummer, and here I was hoping to stick it to the man.
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Old 03-05-2008, 04:39 PM   #1101
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Let me correct myself... you will never be able to tune them without the Tuning Resolver which may or may not ever appear.
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Old 03-05-2008, 07:36 PM   #1102
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Can someone please clarify whether SDV completely screws CableCard devices, or only partially. By that I mean, will an HD TiVo in Austin never be able to receive any channels which are switched, or would it only be able to receive them if they were currently being served up (i.e. had been recently requested by a two-way device on the same hub)?

The reason I ask is that I'm wondering if it might be possible to kludge together a kind of ersatz "resolver" - actually more of a "reserver" - using an S2 TiVo and a non-DVR STB on the same cable drop as an HD TiVo, with the S2 set to record a minute or so of each of the limited number of channels that a household actually watches, on a rotating basis, thus keeping all of them actively served up at all times. Would an HD TiVo then be able to find them via Guided Setup, and be able to tune them back in in those same carriers when they were needed?
Even if there were a way to do this, you could not ensure that all of the channels that you use would always be available. One possibility in an SDV system is that all of the bandwidth allocated to the switched set is in use and you're out of luck; the use of switched tuning is predicated on this being unlikely to happen if they choose the channels in the set carefully. So, even with authorized equipment it's possible that you ask for a channel and it responds, "Sorry; I can't give you that channel now, try again later.".
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Old 03-05-2008, 08:09 PM   #1103
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Old 03-05-2008, 08:53 PM   #1104
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Trya different question

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Can someone please clarify whether SDV completely screws CableCard devices, or only partially.
It doesn't "screw CableCard devices" at all. All SDV units employ CableCards. SDV is a 2-way service, and as such requires a 2-way host. It's that simple.

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By that I mean, will an HD TiVo in Austin never be able to receive any channels which are switched, or would it only be able to receive them if they were currently being served up (i.e. had been recently requested by a two-way device on the same hub)?
The decryption key and channel map has to be passed to the unit requesting the stream, whether the stream happens to already be there or not. It's very little different than a premium non-SDV channel. The fact HBO is present on your CATV drop doesn't mean you can get HBO until your CATV provider gives your CableCard the information it needs to receive HBO. The only differences are, with SDV, the channel in question may appear on any carrier in the system, and your receiver must request the information from the headend as well as requesting that the headend send out the program. With a non-SDV encrypted channel, the program will always be found on the same carrier, and the information concerning the decryption is sent out once and stored permanently on the CableCard subsystem.

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The reason I ask is that I'm wondering if it might be possible to kludge together a kind of ersatz "resolver" - actually more of a "reserver" - using an S2 TiVo and a non-DVR STB on the same cable drop as an HD TiVo, with the S2 set to record a minute or so of each
S2 TiVos don't support CableCards. Neither the S2 nor the S3 / TiVo HD are two way. The fact the STB will make sure the stream is there is irrelevant. Unless the headend sends the channel map and the encryption key specifically for the CableCard that will be receiving the program to that CableCard, the CableCard will never know what to decrypt, how to decrypt it, or to which frequency to tell the host to tune.

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of the limited number of channels that a household actually watches, on a rotating basis, thus keeping all of them actively served up at all times. Would an HD TiVo then be able to find them via Guided Setup, and be able to tune them back in in those same carriers when they were needed?
The whole point of SDV is to allow any any content to be served up on any carrier at any time. The odds a particular "channel" wil wind up on a given carrier or even stay there is small. Since the CableCard won't have the encryption key, the point is moot, however.

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Old 03-05-2008, 11:31 PM   #1105
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It doesn't "screw CableCard devices" at all. All SDV units employ CableCards. SDV is a 2-way service, and as such requires a 2-way host. It's that simple.
Excuse me for not using the correct semantics: "does it screw unidirectional CableCard devices". But since we're being picky, I presume you meant "all current SDV units employ CableCards", because my >6-year-old old SA Explorer sure as hell doesn't have one, and it handles SDV just fine.

Quote:
The decryption key and channel map has to be passed to the unit requesting the stream, whether the stream happens to already be there or not.
I understand that. My question was whether the current lineup was pushed to a (one-way) card-enabled device when first provisioned, and it was able to cache that information locally, and thus be able to receive the same channel again at a later date if it happened to still be on the same carrier, rather than explicitly requesting it every time.

Quote:
S2 TiVos don't support CableCards. Neither the S2 nor the S3 / TiVo HD are two way. The fact the STB will make sure the stream is there is irrelevant. Unless the headend sends the channel map and the encryption key specifically for the CableCard that will be receiving the program to that CableCard, the CableCard will never know what to decrypt, how to decrypt it, or to which frequency to tell the host to tune.
Unless, as I was pondering, the channel was forced to "stay put". But of course if the information is never sent except in response to a request, then the caching aspect is indeed moot.

Quote:
The whole point of SDV is to allow any any content to be served up on any carrier at any time. The odds a particular "channel" wil wind up on a given carrier or even stay there is small.
...unless the channel is being requested again every few minutes, and is thus never released back into the pool of channels eligible to be switched. By constantly requesting a channel, you could effectively lock it to a given carrier, in much the same way that constantly renewing a DHCP lease can result in an effectively-static IP address.
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Old 03-06-2008, 10:40 AM   #1106
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...unless the channel is being requested again every few minutes, and is thus never released back into the pool of channels eligible to be cached. By constantly requesting a channel, you could effectively lock it to a given carrier, in much the same way that constantly renewing a DHCP lease can result in an effectively-static IP address.
I know exactly what you mean, and while that might get you SDV channels on some other QAM tuning device, it won't get you SDV channels on a TiVo since the TiVo relies on the cablecard channel map to decide what channels to tune, and that channel map has all SDV channels removed.

As for the people beating you up over your choice of words, just ignore them...they have nothing new to argue over so they like to pounce on people that don't want to follow every nuance of this giant, nearly-worthless thread.
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Old 03-06-2008, 11:56 AM   #1107
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the TiVo relies on the cablecard channel map to decide what channels to tune, and that channel map has all SDV channels removed.
Indeed, that is the critical point that breaks my hypothesis. Thanks.
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Old 03-06-2008, 07:16 PM   #1108
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The problem

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As for the people beating you up over your choice of words, just ignore them...they have nothing new to argue over so they like to pounce on people that don't want to follow every nuance of this giant, nearly-worthless thread.
First of all, I didn't beat him up, and secondly it wasn't his choice of words that is at issue. It is the fundammental problem which is at issue. The problem is not SDV, and SDV doesn't screw up anything, per se. The problem is that the FCC pointedly and deliberately excluded unidirectional devices from being able to handle 2-way services in it's specifications for all UDCP devices and then failed to provide a specification for bidirectional hosts. Then the proposed contemporary standard which does provide specifications for bidirectional hosts is produced with totally unacceptable reservation in it and is left unratified. This leavs the door wide open to what exactly has happened: the existence of more than one incompatible SDV format and a near inability to produce a reasonably priced universal consumer receiver which can take advantage of 2-way interactive sevice like SDV.
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Old 03-07-2008, 10:37 AM   #1109
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Brighthouse in Birmingham, AL has implemented SDV. Just affecting two channels now but over time it will be all of them.

Boo.
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Old 03-07-2008, 10:47 AM   #1110
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Brighthouse in Birmingham, AL has implemented SDV. Just affecting two channels now but over time it will be all of them.

Boo.
That's unlikely, if their engineering department is any good. SDV only pays off if you choose the channels well--"switching" highly popular channels that will virtually be viewed by someone in every network segment 24/7/365 doesn't help.
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