I believe the future looks very bright for TiVo

[Justin Thyme]

Welcome to TCF after 5 years of addiction!

[richsadams]

Originally Posted by NoPuck4You

Hi, My name is _______, and I've been addicted to Tivo since 2001.

Unfortunately, now I must use Time Warner's crappy Motorola DVR in room A and the old Adelphia/Time Warner Moxi DVR in room B. Why? Because the Tivo HD DVR is still... I repeat.... still... too expensive of a solution compared to what the cable companies and dish providers have in terms of HDDVR box rentals.

I stayed with Cable because for a while Dish and DirectTV were also selling the HD/DVR boxes for $400+ (or equivalent to 5 years rental of a cable company HD/DVR receiver). But now, I hear Dish is offering HD/DVR receivers for free with only monthly rentals.

I enjoy the Tivo service, I still think it's the best. However, until such time that Tivo can come down in price on their receivers, make partnerships with more providers, and not charge large $$ for the HD/DVR receivers, I am forced to go with an inferior alternative.

Simply put, the cost to benefit ratio for people who only want the HD/DVR receivers is currently in favor of the cable companies.

If at some point Tivo can change this ratio back into its favor, I shall return!

- NoPuck4You (former Tivo Addict)

Understood. Money of course is a factor. Just curious...at what price point would you purchase a TiVo HD box? Right now they are going for $399 after rebate so I'd assume it would have to be less than that?

Thanks for posting...it's good info.

[MichaelK]

Originally Posted by Justin Thyme

I admire everyone's unchecked optimism about how analog cable will be eradicated "real soon now".

Two years ago, Rogers quoted the cable analog homes at 50% when describing the market segmentation they were shooting at. Today, journals are still quoting 50%.


That doesn't seem like a lot of progress for two years of effort. We've been hearing about this sudden surge towards digital since the mid 90's.

Maybe "real soon now" is Cable's "real soon now", properly seen in geologic time scales.

the same rogers all but said they got caught with their pants down with how fast digital tv (HD tv being inherently digital) has become mainstream and how they need to refocus their efforts there.

the FCC is actively trying to convince cable to dump analog.

And major providers like Comcast and TW have began dumping analog on major systems like Chicago and NY.

As above if you have analog and digital then your analog subs aren't making you nearly as much as your digital subs can. So why would you protect them? Directv has come to a similar conclusion and figured out that like their top 33% of subs accounts for like 90-95% of their profit- so it doesn't take a big leap to think the same holds true for cable. By definition analog subs ARE the bottom 50% of the subs and therefore probably account for little if any profit. It behoves cable to force those people to digital - if for no other reason so they have a box capable of ordering PPV in their home and they get their addtional outlet and mirroring fees for each tv.

I'm not thinking that analog cable is going to die off tomorrow or anything but i do believe the momentum is building and will continue to do so and at some point it ball winds up rolling so fast that analog gets doomed.

[Bigg]

The future for TiVo is very dim. They have not kept up with the idea of centralized, networked DVRs. On the low end, cable DVRs are free up front, and on the high end, PC based DVRs are the ultimate, and have no monthly fees. TiVo's pricing structure is so screwed up, there is no way they can continue. They have a doomed business model. If they had a monopoly to rip people off, like the cell phone companies, then they would be effectively printing money. But they don't.

[riddick21]

Originally Posted by Bigg

The future for TiVo is very dim. They have not kept up with the idea of centralized, networked DVRs. On the low end, cable DVRs are free up front, and on the high end, PC based DVRs are the ultimate, and have no monthly fees. TiVo's pricing structure is so screwed up, there is no way they can continue. They have a doomed business model. If they had a monopoly to rip people off, like the cell phone companies, then they would be effectively printing money. But they don't.

I guess I better get rid of my 3 TiVo's since you seem to think they are inferior and doomed to fail. Honestly you really have no idea what you are talking about. I don't know anyone who has a computer based DVR. Have you ever heard the term "jack of all trades, master of none" thats what a PC based DVR system is. Its just not practical for the average person and it has yet to infiltrate the mainstream as TiVo has. The cable company has taken a lot of TiVo's marketshare but if anything TiVo is on an upward swing. Perhaps a year ago your argument would have made sense but TiVo has really been stepping it up lately. TiVo has mastered the DVR market and they are spreading into new markets like internet downloads, media streaming, etc. The cable company DVR can't do this the only thing they have going for them is upfront cost. However prices are dropping very rapidly on the Series 3. Its been less than a year since it was released and it is already half of the original price. It's just going to go down in the coming months as well. When it gets under $200 the upfront cost is negligible compared to the additional features you get. Plus you can actually save money by not buying into the cable companies digital package which is mostly crap channels.

[Justin Thyme]

Huh. Let's see, I bought an XP Media Center but guess what- it's obsolete junk after just two years. I can't add a cablecard reader to an existing PC- even a Vista machine. You have to buy a new one with Vista that are certified for cablecards. Ok- so a low end niveus, $3400. The dell capable of handling cablecard- oh lessee- the xps 410 at about the same. Oh yeah, but that's not including the cablecard tuner thingee because it is not included in the same box. You have to get an external one. That's going to look real good in with the other components.

Get this- it is huge, has a lot of hardware guts in it and the one from Niveus will set you back $1499.

Ok so sure, $399 for a Tivo S3 seems like a lot because you have to pay $8.99 for service while the 5 grand thing gets the guide for free.

Heck- put the $4600 saved in the bank and you have a guide free for 42 years.

But maybe you are going to hang onto your PC for 43 years and show us how it was smarter to buy a machine with a single tuner.

That's right. It's another $1499 if you want dual tuners.

[richsadams]

Originally Posted by Bigg

The future for TiVo is very dim. They have not kept up with the idea of centralized, networked DVRs. On the low end, cable DVRs are free up front, and on the high end, PC based DVRs are the ultimate, and have no monthly fees. TiVo's pricing structure is so screwed up, there is no way they can continue. They have a doomed business model. If they had a monopoly to rip people off, like the cell phone companies, then they would be effectively printing money. But they don't.

Oh please, this kind of thinking is wrong on so many levels...all of which have been logically countered in previous posts so no need to rehash them here. But thanks for playing!

[Justin Thyme]

No come on, this could be fun. I was waiting for him to come back and point out that the Velocity Micro CineMagix is only $2499 with two cablecard slots!

It will only take 19 years to amortize the cost of that free guide.

Good deal- the cablecard expansion cards are only $299 for two.

For $299, Tivo could toss the S3 case, power supply etc and just put the S3 on a PC card that posts its video buffer out to Windows. All windows has to do is put the bits up on the screen. Nothing more. Heck- you could get Windows 98 machines that could do that much. Maybe that should be Microsoft's strategy for video in the living room. Just chuck the MCE frankenstein and slap a Tivo Inside sticker on the case, call it a day.

Well, while MS continues to plod along with their gold plated jack of all trades master of none boxes, I am able to access a 1400 film library on a server using a 5 year old PC, and the films (nearly all TTG'd from Tivo) can be accessed directly from the Tivo (after automatic transcode from MPEG4), but also can be played on any other devices including the laptop, Macs, the Ipod feeding video in the car, Sony PSPs, my cell phone... What can I say- I've got transportability.

So what is the Vista vision of transportability? Only the PC that recorded the show can play it. That means only things that can accept a Vista secure transport stream can display the show in other rooms. And if that PC ever goes obsolete like mine did after 2 years, the library is worthless- non playable on the next machine. But it's a more secure system. So why don't you feel so secure?

Sounds like a real smart investment there.

[richsadams]

Originally Posted by Justin Thyme

No come on, this could be fun. I was waiting for him to come back and point out that the Velocity Micro CineMagix is only $2499 with two cablecard slots!

It will only take 19 years to amortize the cost of that free guide.

Good deal- the cablecard expansion cards are only $299 for two.

For $299, Tivo could toss the S3 case, power supply etc and just put the S3 on a PC card that posts its video buffer out to Windows. All windows has to do is put the bits up on the screen. Nothing more. Heck- you could get Windows 98 machines that could do that much. Maybe that should be Microsoft's strategy for video in the living room. Just chuck the MCE frankenstein and slap a Tivo Inside sticker on the case, call it a day.

Well, while MS continues to plod along with their gold plated jack of all trades master of none boxes, I am able to access a 1400 film library on a server using a 5 year old PC, and the films (nearly all TTG'd from Tivo) can be accessed directly from the Tivo (after automatic transcode from MPEG4), but also can be played on any other devices including the laptop, Macs, the Ipod feeding video in the car, Sony PSPs, my cell phone... What can I say- I've got transportability.

So what is the Vista vision of transportability? Only the PC that recorded the show can play it. That means only things that can accept a Vista secure transport stream can display the show in other rooms. And if that PC ever goes obsolete like mine did after 2 years, the library is worthless- non playable on the next machine. But it's a more secure system. So why don't you feel so secure?

Sounds like a real smart investment there.

Aurgh! Now how did the Talking Heads put it? "Stop Making Sense!"

[bidger]

Originally Posted by riddick21

I don't know anyone who has a computer based DVR. Have you ever heard the term "jack of all trades, master of none" thats what a PC based DVR system is.

I use one and it's the reason I sold off my standalone TiVos. Cable Card on my MCE 2005? Not interested since I'm not a cable sub. But, I can add an ATSC tuner, which is something I couldn't do with the standalone TiVos. I'm thinking right now that for less than the $200 it would have cost to do the Lifetime Service transfer to a S3, I can get the HD Home Run from 9th Tee and have dual ATSC tuners.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't quite a few of the HMO features of a networked TiVo dependent on having a PC in the mix? Why should I settle for streaming eMPty3s when I can do lossless? I added a 24-bit sound card and have an optical connection to my SONY amp, there's no reason it shouldn't sound as good as possible.

Is it a solution for everyone? Not right now, but it's certainly a viable one for those who don't mind a bit of DIY. I couldn't care less about which webcasts TiVo chooses to add because I choose the ones I want. And while after you set it, a networked TiVo does most of the heavy lifting, it does require some configuration and learning on the user's end for those who don't know what a network is prior to that. And, if something goes awry, there's some troubleshooting involved. I never could get a wireless adapter to work on my TCD540040 and I wasn't spending more for a wireless bridge. Finally came to my senses and got the Linksys USB-200M.

Do I think it's all doom and gloom for TiVo? No, but just like every company, they'll have to evolve and adapt. It makes it harder that they're a third party when it comes to multichannel services. That makes them vulnerable to whatever the providers decide to do. The only thing that looks dim is that I'll buy another TiVo. Since TiVo felt they had to remove Lifetime, that was a clear message to me that, since the only way I've ever bought one was with Lifetime, they no longer want my business. Part of evolving and adapting and I'll do the same.

[ZeoTiVo]

Originally Posted by bidger

, it does require some configuration and learning on the user's end for those who don't know what a network is prior to that. And, if something goes awry, there's some troubleshooting involved.

ah, there is the rub for me. If you do not understand how to set up a home network these days then surely going DIY on a HTPC is not a good idea. HTPC will have a fine future for what it does. if you like DIY and have the tech skills then it can be very rewarding. If you are wealthy enough to have others come in and setup your Home Theater and media situation then HTPC will most likely be an integral part.

HTPC is just not ever going to be a high% market and for TiVo to try and compete against such is just kind of silly for TiVo. I could have setup HTPC in my house and have the skill set to do it on any of various OSes and software packages. I understand hardware enough to keep the cost at a reasonable setting even. I chose TiVo for 2 reasons.
1. I am not an archiver of media but a consumer, I re-watch very little and that is selective, so my requirement is fast and simple setup vs ability to do multiple things. I kind of have JustinThyme's setup minus the terabytes of media.
2. I want my whole family to be able to watch media without having to call me in to troubleshoot. I want to watch media without having to troubleshoot

I think these 2 requirements fit a lot of people who might want to get a DVR. HTPC is just in a different niche altogether and perfectly fine for that niche but the only thing TiVo market and HTPC market really has in common is they both record and hold media. About the only TiVo sales lost to HTPC is a young geek who simply does not have the money for TiVo but does have some hardware lying around and can take the time to install sage or MythTV or whatever. I did that back when you spent 400$ just for an S1 and called it poor man's TiVo even.

[Justin Thyme]

Originally Posted by bidger

Is it a solution for everyone? Not right now, but it's certainly a viable one for those who don't mind a bit of DIY.

I noticed something while adding hitech stuff to my home.

No one would use it except me.

That is, unless it was simple enough for grandmothers to use, and not fragile. As in, does the same thing reliably, no surprizes, doesn't look different every third wednsday of the month- no glitches.

Thoreau said simplify, simplify. The irony is that with electronics and many other things, it is not so simple to be simple. As for reliability- Really as an engineering exercise- squeezing out that last 1% of reliability separates the men from the boys. MS hasn't figured it out after a decade- IMHO DIY open source folks are as equally constitutionally ill disposed to go the extra mile. For very different reasons.

But sure- god bless the Tim Allen's of the world that rig up 50HP engines to the wife's vacuum cleaner. There are some really cool things you can do by cobbling together stuff. Unfortunately it appears you won't be able to do anything with digital HD from cable or satellite for the forseeable future- take for example the fact you can't hook up an ATI cablecard reader to any PC. The thinking appears to be that DIY folks are the enemy of Hollywood-

Of course they have a hopeless position. Already you can buy a hacked HD-DVD, bluray and satellite Hidef boxes to output SDI. Not that SDI HD recorders are affordable but anyone but the small video studio markets they are built for- but the price will come down. But I can't see the day when that sort of thing becomes as prevalent as region hacks are available at retail for dvd players in OZ or NZ.

Good luck with your projects. Build an NAS video library server for Tivos and market it via PVRupgrade- you could make it work with linux windoze PCs too for the DIY market, but what the heck- making money is a good thing too, and there are a heckofalot of Tivo customers looking for a turnkey solution.

[richsadams]

Originally Posted by Justin Thyme

I noticed something while adding hitech stuff to my home.

No one would use it except me.

That is, unless it was simple enough for grandmothers to use, and not fragile. As in, does the same thing reliably, no surprizes, doesn't look different every third wednesday of the month- no glitches.

...But I can't see the day when that sort of thing becomes as prevalent as region hacks are available at retail for dvd players in OZ or NZ.

Well said. Actually DVD players sold in AU and NZ are completely region-free as DVD's are imported from around the world. The Sony DVD player we brought back will play DVD's from any region on a PAL, SECAM or NTSC television.

[Justin Thyme]

Originally Posted by richsadams

Actually DVD players sold in AU and NZ are completely region-free as DVD's are imported from around the world.

When I lived in NZ, you did not exactly buy the DVD player region free. The salesman would ask you if you'd like it to be- I forget the euphemism- something like "unlocked" or "chipped". Anyway- they'd send it to the local fix-it place where you would take broken camcorders and stuff. You could pick it up in an hour after sale. I'm not sure if it weren't really a charade- that they didn't have them all pre-modded in the back- because everyone as you say bought them that way. Maybe it was because I have a strong Yank accent- but I assumed there was some regulation they were doing a dance around. Anyway, they would warrant their work etc so it was no big deal for anyone.

If Tivo came out with an HD-SDI input for the home theater crowd- that would be pretty interesting. It would have to be a herking Tivo though to handle the Jainormous amount of data for Hidef. It would be cool, because then we could buy "unlocked" Sat and Hidef DVD boxes. For example, JVB Digital's HD-SDI daughterboard takes the decoded data stream and outputs clean data through the SDI output. Here's a picture of the board- its at jvbdigital.nl but it is non DIY (apparently the HD mod is tough so no kits) and is very pricey- mostly the home theater crowd that need an SDI signal for their high end gear.



$799 including install. Whoa. Ok but look at it. How expensive could it be in say 2 years.

[dylanemcgregor]

Originally Posted by Justin Thyme

I admire everyone's unchecked optimism about how analog cable will be eradicated "real soon now".

Two years ago, Rogers quoted the cable analog homes at 50% when describing the market segmentation they were shooting at. Today, journals are still quoting 50%.


That doesn't seem like a lot of progress for two years of effort. We've been hearing about this sudden surge towards digital since the mid 90's.

Maybe "real soon now" is Cable's "real soon now", properly seen in geologic time scales.

I'm in NYC, and although analog hasn't been eradicated, you are still required to have a box for analog cable. So from my point of view "analog" is already a thing of the past.

Now lucky for me I have a TiVo with a lifetime subscription and I use all the money I save by not having $100 a month cable bill to download movies from Unbox, and use ComeBack to supplement these offerings even more. We're still able to get network TV and a few cable stations with lifeline cable, but I'm guessing 50% of what we watch is downloaded now with the percentage being higher if you count Netflix.

For my household at least it seems that the idea of broadcast TV itself (whether analog or digital) isn't likely to last through the end of the decade. What does this mean for TiVo if this becomes the dominant way that people get content? I don't know...except that I'm pretty sure TiVo would have to change business models yet again to survive.

[richsadams]

Originally Posted by Justin Thyme

When I lived in NZ, you did not exactly buy the DVD player region free. The salesman would ask you if you'd like it to be- I forget the euphemism- something like "unlocked" or "chipped". Anyway- they'd send it to the local fix-it place where you would take broken camcorders and stuff. You could pick it up in an hour after sale. I'm not sure if it weren't really a charade- that they didn't have them all pre-modded in the back- because everyone as you say bought them that way. Maybe it was because I have a strong Yank accent- but I assumed there was some regulation they were doing a dance around. Anyway, they would warrant their work etc so it was no big deal for anyone.

We heard stories like that. Luckily times have changed. No more hacks, code breaking, etc. The DVD players sold in Australasia are actually "region sensing" and play all DVD's from regions 1 - 6...essentially making them region free now. Although it's sometimes interesting to turn one on and find the on-screen instructions in Turkish or some other language.

The ones that are really great are the region free and code free DVD players that not only let you play discs from anywhere in the world, but also ignore the coding that prevents you from skipping through the FBI warnings or those irritating "previews" they're putting on DVD's now.

Region free/code free, progressive scan DVD players can be purchased on line in the U.S. for about the same price as most CE stores. Most are dual voltage and can be used on PAL or NTSC TV’s anywhere. Guess those will go by the wayside once the war over Blu-ray and HD is sorted out. Oh joy...more coding!

Phew...that was completely OT!

[Justin Thyme]

Originally Posted by dylanemcgregor

For my household at least it seems that the idea of broadcast TV itself (whether analog or digital) isn't likely to last through the end of the decade. What does this mean for TiVo if this becomes the dominant way that people get content? I don't know...except that I'm pretty sure TiVo would have to change business models yet again to survive.

Compare the size of HD programs recorded off of broadcast TV to that of cable. After thinking about it, you may understand why you shouldn't have been surprized that they are often 3 or 4 times larger than the version you get off of cable. That's just one reason why broadcast may well survive.

I think you know that Tivo's business model is not monolithic, focusing entirely on a single market segment. Some folks may like Tivo lite on a Moto box. Some may not want anything more than analog cable, or prefer tivo with an analog connection to a sat box. Still others may have cable and want the programming that a cablecard enabled device can make available. There are a couple of dimensions to the segmentation- price, delivery technology, programming tastes, desire for high end features (TTG-TivoCast-portable video).

[Bigg]

SageTV is so far ahead of TiVo. With TiVo, there are a bunch of single boxes spread througout a house, none of which are syncronized with one another. If you happen to know what box a show is on, you can copy the whole thing over, its just silly. The Now Playing List and To Do lists should be syncronized. With a Sage system, the server can have a bunch of tuners, and put what shows should be on a tuner on that tuner. TiVo can't do that.

TiVo is a closed platform, and these closed platforms are really problematic. If you have an HTPC, you can load whatever software or codec you want on that PC, and it has a full web browser, etc. With devices, you end up with a half dozen different players and media players, and streaming dohickeys, and you still can't play whatever you want, like if you had a XP box.

SageTV has no monthly fees, and a server machine could be made for a few hundred, and clients for not much at all, with Mini-ITX boards, or even just use old PIII boxes. The overall cost of a disconnected, disjointed digital home with TiVos and other closed boxes is a lot higher, and it is harder to use than one that is based on Windows, with full blown PCs under everything. All a TV would need is an ethernet connection (or wireless N), and a computer with a DVD-ROM drive. Everything else would be handled by the server.

MCE is pretty crappy, its only marginally better than TiVo, as it is a semi-closed system. SageTV is pretty open, as you can run it on about anything that can run Windows 2000 or XP, and its files are all unencrypted.

A couple grand for an MCE box. Or a couple hundred to build a Sage box. Sage is pretty sweet. And for HDTV, it can handle ATSC, unencrytped QAM, or all of the non-premium channels out of a firewire HDTV cable box.

As for the transportability, SageTV obviously beats TiVo. It uses regular MPEG2 files, so you can just drag them over the network to whatever you want, and I think there are streaming and recompressing add-ons to make it portable to tiny screens.

For those who are too lame to set up a network or build a computer, thats why Comcast rents crappy boxes. Those things are for the masses. For people who are serious about TV and have half a clue, building an HTPC is the way to go. That leaves TiVo nowhere.

Moving things to and from TiVo is a nightmare. An HTPC is easy, you just open the file. There is no troubleshooting involved with HTPCs once you get them set up. If you have a lot of clients, you could set up a Server 03 VM on the server to be a domain controller and manage updates and settings and stuff like that.

Poor man's TiVo? I'd call TiVo a poor man's, or lazy man's HTPC setup.

None of TiVo's new or high-end features even compare to what an HTPC can do without any kudgy server softwares or anything like that. And the grandma market would do better to have the cableco do their DVR for them.

[richsadams]

Originally Posted by Bigg

For people who are serious about TV and have half a clue, building an HTPC is the way to go. That leaves TiVo nowhere.

Seriously? For God's sakes man...it's T.V.!

[Bigg]

Nice misrepresentation of an out-of-context quote.

[bidger]

Originally Posted by Bigg

A couple grand for an MCE box.

Where do you shop?

And, Rich, "it's just TV" is undercut by the 4 TiVos in your sig.

[Justin Thyme]

In 1978, anyone serious about micros knew that an S-100 bus machine was the way to go. Really, the Apple ][ was nowhere on the scene of getting the biggest bang for the lowest buck. Similarly, S100 bus machines were nowhere for the mass market.

Now, as for cost. Well. The Sage Dual Tuner bundle gets you a tuner card, a remote, and the software for $229. Ok, you need a DVXA video card for HD so maybe you can get a low end one for $100.

Now, all you need to do is find an ultra quiet 3GHZ cpu for $70 and you can have a Tivo S3 with a free Guide!

Except you won't be able to record most of the HD content available on Cable- but hey- it will run circles around a $99 dual tuner Tivo- that is, if you don't mind those virus software popup warnings about how it is scanning your hard drive ...

Maybe there are some Sage or Myth Tv folks who honestly feel they have their systems tamed well enough that they can run for 4 or 5 months without a reboot, and with near 99% reliability. That other 1% of glitches, unexplained application failure, lost recordings- well- It seems close enough for many folks.

So close and yet so far. Because that 1% will lose you the mass market.

(That is, unless you are a cable or satco.)

[richsadams]

Originally Posted by bidger

Where do you shop?

And, Rich, "it's just TV" is undercut by the 4 TiVos in your sig.

Ha! Good one!

[richsadams]

Originally Posted by Bigg

Nice misrepresentation of an out-of-context quote.

Hmmm...that's actually a non sequitur . The "out of context quote" is represented perfectly…cut and paste and all of that. I think what you meant to say was that the essence of your post was misrepresented by a quote taken out of context. If that’s what you meant, you are correct.

The comment simply meant to imply (in a humorous way) that your post was just a bit over the top IMHO...as in "Hey, it's only television, not the solution to world hunger”, so there’s really no need to be defensive. Peace brother.

[riddick21]

Tivo rules while HTPC drools

[Bigg]

Justin Thyme (who posted the only serious post),

You are looking at one machine, and ignoring the other purposes. One Sage box can do the same work as a bunch of TiVos, and then the thin clients can hook up to the individual TVs. They could be little no-moving-parts Mini-ITX PCs, or $99 true thin clients. When you factor in the subscriptions, tthe Sage box is going to be cheaper, and of course, it does so much more.

You can get the unencrytped QAM channels, and/or most of the cable channels (probably not the HBO/SHO channels that are too much $$ anyways) through a firewire connected box.

You wouldn't need A/V software on these machines, I don't even use it on my XP desktop.

Windows 2000 has at least a 6 month uptime. Even TiVo goofs once in a while, or misses a recording because it only has one tuner, and can't talk to the other TiVos in a house to schedule a recording on one of their tuners. SageTV doesn't have this problem, as you could add 6 cable tuners, 2 OTA HD, a QAM, and a cable box etc.

If the box crashes once a year, and misses one show, that wouldn't make it much worse than the preexisting conditions of power and cable outages. Even then, the box should never crash, only needing to be rebooted when you install updates once every 6-12 months. That one show is a lot less than TiVo misses due to tuner conflicts.

[ZeoTiVo]

Originally Posted by Bigg

Justin Thyme (who posted the only serious post),

You are looking at one machine, and ignoring the other purposes. One Sage box can do the same work as a bunch of TiVos, and then the thin clients can hook up to the individual TVs. They could be little no-moving-parts Mini-ITX PCs, or $99 true thin clients. When you factor in the subscriptions, tthe Sage box is going to be cheaper, and of course, it does so much more..

you keep saying Sage will be cheaper but others keep showing examples of why that is not so.

If you wish to keep repeating this claim as you have already been I think you need to list the parts needed with somce actual costs to them for the whole setup. And I doubt you will get a 4 tuner sage on windows 2000 running on a PIII with 512 meg memory so make sure the server PC can handle this whole house load.

Also many, such as myself have dual tuner tiVo DVRs and do not experience loss of shows due to conflicts. My only pain point is have to schedule something on a diferent TiVo as i am already recording two things at that time. I think I have missed 2 shows from 5 TiVo DVRs over 2 years whle you claim the minimum would be 10 or more

[Bigg]

What do you want me to make a freaking excel? Its pretty hard to do, as the Sage machine is also a server, NAS, PBX, router, Bittorrent machine, Folder, etc, and the clients also replicate the functionality of a DVD player and Apple TV.

[riddick21]

Originally Posted by Bigg

Justin Thyme (who posted the only serious post),

You are looking at one machine, and ignoring the other purposes. One Sage box can do the same work as a bunch of TiVos, and then the thin clients can hook up to the individual TVs. They could be little no-moving-parts Mini-ITX PCs, or $99 true thin clients. When you factor in the subscriptions, tthe Sage box is going to be cheaper, and of course, it does so much more.

You can get the unencrytped QAM channels, and/or most of the cable channels (probably not the HBO/SHO channels that are too much $$ anyways) through a firewire connected box.

You wouldn't need A/V software on these machines, I don't even use it on my XP desktop.

Windows 2000 has at least a 6 month uptime. Even TiVo goofs once in a while, or misses a recording because it only has one tuner, and can't talk to the other TiVos in a house to schedule a recording on one of their tuners. SageTV doesn't have this problem, as you could add 6 cable tuners, 2 OTA HD, a QAM, and a cable box etc.

If the box crashes once a year, and misses one show, that wouldn't make it much worse than the preexisting conditions of power and cable outages. Even then, the box should never crash, only needing to be rebooted when you install updates once every 6-12 months. That one show is a lot less than TiVo misses due to tuner conflicts.

Honestly you would be better off arguing in favor of the cable company DVR. HTPC is too complicated for the average person and I doubt it will ever become mainstream in its current form. I bet most DVR users don't visit this site and don't even know what the inside of a computer looks like so I doubt they're going to save money by making a system themselves and networking it themselves. Just because its technical specifications beat the TiVo does not make it a better product. Look at the PS3 vs Wii, obviously the PS3 is superior hardware but it doesn't satisfy the average consumers needs so its sales reflect that. With the TiVo you just plug it in and it works. This is a big deal to most people. You can argue in favor of HTPC but I bet you can't think of 5 people you know that own one. I honestly cant think of a single person.

A Free guide doesn't mean squat if your paying a fortune up front. TiVo S3 prices are dropping rapidly (I really wouldn't be surprised if this time next year the series 3 could be had for less than $150) but a HTPC is a computer running home theater software (on windows ) and you have to pay for all the additional costs of owning a computer and you can't really do your taxes on a computer hooked up to a TV in your living room. The Series 3 can be had right now for $399. Please let me know where you can get a HTPC for $399. Even with 3 years of service your looking at $700 and thats how much mediocre Dells cost so I doubt you can get a computer that can run and record TV 24/7 for that much.

[ZeoTiVo]

Originally Posted by Bigg

What do you want me to make a freaking excel? Its pretty hard to do, as the Sage machine is also a server, NAS, PBX, router, Bittorrent machine, Folder, etc, and the clients also replicate the functionality of a DVD player and Apple TV.

yes, but you are the one claiming value in such a device over other options. Backing up such a claim would lend you a lot more credence, don't you think?

PS - all I meant was spec out what hardware and software would cost for your proposed sageTV setup. No need to even worry about PBX or other software or whatever. Just a Sage server and the clients.