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Old 04-01-2007, 12:46 AM   #31
Justin Thyme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgould
Could you do a BIG favor, and try downloading the PM'd HDV MPEG2 files to your PC, putting them into your transfer folder, and see if they transfer and play back fine?
Well, I put them on an external drive and will trot over to the other house with them in a bit, but just looking at them, the dimensions seemed a little odd. I was expecting 720p's 1280x720, or 1080i's 1920x1080. Your camcorder is spitting out 1440 x 1088. I don't recall what my HD camcorder puts out, but it isn't this.

I'll give it a whirl, but I am not optimistic.

Hey codec motorheads in the audience- what's your guess here on what Tivo would support? Anyone know what the Cable on wire mpegs being sent as? I'll bet that's what will work if it doesn't eat this or the 720p/1080i dimensions.

Or hey, if TivoStephen or TivoJerry would like to drop a hint here, that would be nice.
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Old 04-01-2007, 12:51 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Justin Thyme
Or hey, if TivoStephen or TivoJerry would like to drop a hint here, that would be nice.
My guess is that they are very busy seeing to it that the hole you have brought to their attention is plugged.
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Old 04-01-2007, 01:46 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Carlos_E
More info please!!! How are you access the Tivo without the S3 media key???
Why not do it with a media access key? Manage my account tells me mine, but there's not a lot I can do with it.
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Old 04-01-2007, 01:46 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Thyme
Well, I put them on an external drive and will trot over to the other house with them in a bit, but just looking at them, the dimensions seemed a little odd. I was expecting 720p's 1280x720, or 1080i's 1920x1080. Your camcorder is spitting out 1440 x 1088. I don't recall what my HD camcorder puts out, but it isn't this.

I'll give it a whirl, but I am not optimistic.

Hey codec motorheads in the audience- what's your guess here on what Tivo would support? Anyone know what the Cable on wire mpegs being sent as? I'll bet that's what will work if it doesn't eat this or the 720p/1080i dimensions.

Or hey, if TivoStephen or TivoJerry would like to drop a hint here, that would be nice.

HDV format true tape-recorded res is always 1440x1080, (well for 1080i not 720)... it is re-scaled up to 1920 on camera outputs, and often in editors.
If you have a harddisk-based or non-HDV camera (eg AVCHD?) , it might record full 1920. Note that AVCHD is MPEG4 compression so I doubt it would work.
Hopefully the tivo would accept whatever res/pixel size, as you seem to have shown earlier for various sized SD MPEG files.
Thanks much for your help, and hope your camcorder files work too.
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Old 04-01-2007, 03:46 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Thyme
Hey codec motorheads in the audience- what's your guess here on what Tivo would support? Anyone know what the Cable on wire mpegs being sent as? I'll bet that's what will work if it doesn't eat this or the 720p/1080i dimensions.
Digital cable transmissions (and ATSC OTA transmissions) are all mpeg2 transport streams. The HD variety are the usual 720p (1280x720, 60fps) or 1080i (1920x1080, 30fps) transmissions, the SD digital resolutions can vary but are also mpeg2 transport streams. For sure the S3 can decode those.
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Old 04-01-2007, 03:51 AM   #36
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No, mine is one of those small Sony Hidef cameras. Forget the model number, but it was the small one that bestbuy used to sell last summer.

Those odd dimenstions I mentioned actually are defined by a standard for accepted DVD mpeg resolutions. They correspond to fixed settings inside the Tivo- I forget the nomenclature, but resolution 0 was 720x480, 1 was 544x480, 2 was 480x480 and so on.

Anyway, woohoo my speculations didn't matter. The transfer worked but there were hitches. The fly one xferred ok. I could play it, but if I hit pause, rewind, the system would freeze requiring reboot. It also had some major blockey artifacts in the middle like what you see when rain interupts a satellite transmission. This fly one was super super short, so perhaps that was part of the freeze bug.

The chinese drum one runs fine, looks great. Does not crash Tivo playing in in 720p forced. Playing it with Video set to "Native", the S3 set the output to 1080i. When I hit pause rewind, it froze Tivo requiring reboot.

Resolution was great, but there were the same blocky artifacts.

Here are some images. Everyone has seen Hidef on the S3, so no big deal here- it's sharp, it's pretty. Only difference is it came from your camcorder.


Yeah, it is really on an S3.


Thanks moyekj for confirming my speculations on those dimenstions. I used graphedit in a quick and dirty attempt to transcode them to 1280x720, and 1920x1080, but my mpeg encoder (moonlight standard) would not accept widths that large. I have something around here I used on the Hidef files- hopefully it was not a trial and I can do some more test files in other resolutions to see how gnarly this "blockiness during zoom" bug is. Just for fun, I tried moonlights H264 encoder, which allowed the dimension but S3 wouldn't play it.

Last edited by Justin Thyme : 04-01-2007 at 03:56 AM.
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Old 04-01-2007, 09:21 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by cramer
If you believe Tivo, the S3 cannot support MRV/TTG because the code to support it physically isn't there. They removed it -- as opposed to disabling it -- to get CableLabs certification. The reason unscrambled, "simple" MPEG-2's work (when accidentally enabled) is because that's TivoCast.
Removal of code is a strong claim that I have seen no evidence for, and lots of evidence against. Where did TiVo ever say they did that? I certainly believe they need more code in order to get everything to work (eg, different code to send an MRV S2 show to their hardware decrypter that's different on an S3 than an S2). But could you please substantiate your claim that TiVo said they had to remove code to get CableLabs certification?
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Old 04-01-2007, 10:01 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Thyme
I was expecting 720p's 1280x720, or 1080i's 1920x1080. Your camcorder is spitting out 1440 x 1088.
The old HR10-250 has no problem with DirecTV's 1280x1080i. I wouldn't expect a problem with the width. As for the height, 1088 is actually common on "1080i" channels, too. It's something about being divisible by 16... and the last 8 lines are set to not display... I think.
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Old 04-01-2007, 10:07 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Thyme
No, mine is one of those small Sony Hidef cameras. Forget the model number, but it was the small one that bestbuy used to sell last summer.

Those odd dimenstions I mentioned actually are defined by a standard for accepted DVD mpeg resolutions. They correspond to fixed settings inside the Tivo- I forget the nomenclature, but resolution 0 was 720x480, 1 was 544x480, 2 was 480x480 and so on.

Anyway, woohoo my speculations didn't matter. The transfer worked but there were hitches. The fly one xferred ok. I could play it, but if I hit pause, rewind, the system would freeze requiring reboot. It also had some major blockey artifacts in the middle like what you see when rain interupts a satellite transmission. This fly one was super super short, so perhaps that was part of the freeze bug.

The chinese drum one runs fine, looks great. Does not crash Tivo playing in in 720p forced. Playing it with Video set to "Native", the S3 set the output to 1080i. When I hit pause rewind, it froze Tivo requiring reboot.

Resolution was great, but there were the same blocky artifacts.

Here are some images. Everyone has seen Hidef on the S3, so no big deal here- it's sharp, it's pretty. Only difference is it came from your camcorder.



Thanks moyekj for confirming my speculations on those dimenstions. I used graphedit in a quick and dirty attempt to transcode them to 1280x720, and 1920x1080, but my mpeg encoder (moonlight standard) would not accept widths that large. I have something around here I used on the Hidef files- hopefully it was not a trial and I can do some more test files in other resolutions to see how gnarly this "blockiness during zoom" bug is. Just for fun, I tried moonlights H264 encoder, which allowed the dimension but S3 wouldn't play it.
Thanks so much Justin! Great screenshots- as sharp as the original HD- thanks!

The files are MPG2 converted from M2T (transport stream) so they're not fully native HDV files, but they otherwise weren't rendered much and don't have any glitches in them on playback (eg in VLC on the PC), so strange about the big blocks/artifacts in the middle. Do they play OK on your computer, or show the same artifacts? perhaps something glitched during up/download.

Yes the fly one is super short, just a few seconds, and the chinese charm one under 10sec also... HD file sizes are too much for the internet
I have another nice one of flower closeups, 1:37, but it's 300MB, same converted M2T->MPG2. PM me for the URL if you want to try it.
I could try to get some M2T files, but not sure I have space to upload... I can't edit those w/o transcoding and they're bigger.

Meanwhile at least the "HD PC->S3 files transfer+playback" concept has been proven, it's possible, and I'll wait happily for the real thing to happen soon I hope w/ any issues resolved. (hint beta test volunteer ) This would definitely be great to compete w/ AppleTV, as they don't have much HD content available/usable... and I won't have to muck with HD switchers or other media extenders

Last edited by cgould : 04-01-2007 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 04-01-2007, 02:38 PM   #40
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I'm just wondering how you got the (a,a,a). Did you transfer lifetime from a S2, whereas most everyone transferred from a S1? We all know about the "name swapping". If you transferred lifetime from an S2, perhaps the (a,a,a) transferred with it.
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Old 04-01-2007, 05:04 PM   #41
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I wonder why TivoComeBack isnt there anyway. Has nothing to do w/ getting content off the S3
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Old 04-01-2007, 06:26 PM   #42
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Administratively, it's not hard to see that it is much cleaner if it is either all on or all off. Sadly, that includes folks like me that have not bothered with cablecards yet. Since the device is a cablecard host, I can see how a legal agreement could be written so that cablelabs might have a say over capabilities even if cablecards weren't installed. Folks familiar with the CHILA might be able to offer speculation on that point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farrington
I'm just wondering how you got the (a,a,a). Did you transfer lifetime from a S2, whereas most everyone transferred from a S1? We all know about the "name swapping". If you transferred lifetime from an S2, perhaps the (a,a,a) transferred with it.
Mike, I have tried to figure that, but I have come up nothing. This install was a little bit out of the ordinary, since you normally start with a clean new account. And normally, folks install at least one cablecard. I never did.

Before I got the S3 I had a DT set up. I sold it to my neighbor, then when I initialized the S3, I already had a working account. Possibly when I initialized it, it passed the flags then. But as far as what I did- nothing out of the ordinary. I think I set it for transfers on Tivo.com but that is it. As far as I know, the flags were there from install. But they might have appeared later. I just wasn't paying that close attention, since I knew the status of MRV and didn't bother with any of it.
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Old 04-01-2007, 11:23 PM   #43
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cgould, your data rate was 25 mbps, so I had a theory that this is a combination of the Series 3 having to upconvert to 1920x1080, and then getting swamped by the datarate. Just as a datapoint, TivoToGoBack recommends no more than 8mbps for the S2, and Cable generally digitizes HD at 15mbps, according to what I have read in their trade magazines.

What program generated these mpg files? I ask, because I can't get Graphedit or Ulead VideoStudio 10 to output any HD files the Tivo will eat. SD files are no sweat. The best I can get, only the first frame is displayed. Most of them, it displays an error message that there was no video in the recording (although Info shows data is there). CBR, VBR, PES, no PES, I frame only or no, 29.97, 24, 30 or 60fps, standard dimensions or no.

If anyone knows of more mpg files on the net I can try, let me know the urls. I downloaded 1920x1080 mpegs: ftp://ftp.heise.de/pub/ct/spezial/emotion.mpg, and ftp://ftp.heise.de/pub/ct/spezial/crawford.mpg. These did not display on Tivo.

I'll break out the camcorder and convert some stuff over from the Sony Hidef camcorder. Sony Software is usually off the wall with formats, so I am not optimistic that it will help out. Any recommendations for HD Video software trials out there that will at least generate small hd mpg files?

Last edited by Justin Thyme : 04-01-2007 at 11:29 PM.
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Old 04-01-2007, 11:33 PM   #44
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Have you tried Quicktime Pro?
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Old 04-01-2007, 11:56 PM   #45
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Nope- Is there a free trial of that, and do random conversions from mpg2 formats into compliant mpg? If not, yeah, I could shoot in the dark, but I'd rather pick up updates of VideoRedo, and the HD video editor competitors to Ulead, than buy something less full featured.

BTW- I just transfered some video from my camcorder, and the mpg produced has exactly the same parameters as CGould's- 25mbps CBR 1440x1080 Upper field first 29.97fps Audio mpeg layer 2 48Khz stereo 16bit.

The S3 ate CGould's file with these characteristics just fine. My directshow pipes must be loused up as is often the case, because I generate these with the same characteristics, and S3 turns its nose up at them.

What a way to spend a Palm Sunday.
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Old 04-02-2007, 12:10 AM   #46
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I know Pirates of the Caribbean 2 has some HD preview that are 720p or 1080p, if you can strip the MPEG2 stream out of it, you can try it.

http://www.comingsoon.net/films.php?id=6175
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Old 04-02-2007, 12:19 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Thyme
cgould, your data rate was 25 mbps, so I had a theory that this is a combination of the Series 3 having to upconvert to 1920x1080, and then getting swamped by the datarate. Just as a datapoint, TivoToGoBack recommends no more than 8mbps for the S2, and Cable generally digitizes HD at 15mbps, according to what I have read in their trade magazines.

What program generated these mpg files? I ask, because I can't get Graphedit or Ulead VideoStudio 10 to output any HD files the Tivo will eat. SD files are no sweat. The best I can get, only the first frame is displayed. Most of them, it displays an error message that there was no video in the recording (although Info shows data is there). CBR, VBR, PES, no PES, I frame only or no, 29.97, 24, 30 or 60fps, standard dimensions or no.

If anyone knows of more mpg files on the net I can try, let me know the urls. I downloaded 1920x1080 mpegs: ftp://ftp.heise.de/pub/ct/spezial/emotion.mpg, and ftp://ftp.heise.de/pub/ct/spezial/crawford.mpg. These did not display on Tivo.

I'll break out the camcorder and convert some stuff over from the Sony Hidef camcorder. Sony Software is usually off the wall with formats, so I am not optimistic that it will help out. Any recommendations for HD Video software trials out there that will at least generate small hd mpg files?
I used Ulead MediaStudio Pro8. As mentioned it just converts the M2T transport stream native format of the HDV tape, to regular program stream MPG2 file, no other real transcoding. All 1080-60i HDV video is 1440x1080 res at 25Mbps, upper field first..
If you use any editors to create/convert native HDV video , look for a HDV-1080-60i profile.
Sony Vegas should have a similar profile, but it will take and edit native M2T files.
Ulead VideoStudio10(plus) should have some HD profiles as well ..? maybe only the plus version, not std...
here's the data for profile from MSpro:

NTSC drop frame (29.97 fps)
24 bits, 1440 x 1080, 29.97 fps
Upper Field First (MPEG-2), 16:9
Video data rate: 25000 kbps
Audio data rate: 384 kbps
MPEG audio layer 2, 48 KHz, Stereo

PS you should be able to download free, usable trials for all of the above (Ulead VideoStudio10Plus, MSPro8, and Sony Vegas7), to capture/edit/generate HDV-compliant MPG files.

I'm hoping the S3 will take HDV-format 1440x1080 rather than some specific format, as that would save the most time/space re-rendering and transcoding. The S3 shouldn't have a problem displaying 1440 rather than 1920 I don't think.

8Mbps is the normal max for SD DVD-compliant MPG, and there is not much point encoding SD at higher res (no benefit), so not surprised at the above recommendation; and yes ATSC (broadcast HD) maxes out at like 15-19Mbps. One reason my Canon video looks sharper than DiscoveryHD

I couldn't get the 2 heise.de MPG files to even play on my PC in VLC player (which does nearly everything)... MSPro played it OK. (maybe was the audio or high bitrate?)
MSPro said re its format:
1920x1080 29.97fps, 24bit, 16:9
30000 kbps (higher than 25... hmm)
Audio was Dolby Digital 5.1 48KHz @ 384Kbps, maybe that contributes..


For other sample HD/HDV files, check out dvinfo.net, has lots of reviews of HDV cameras, w/ various people posting various samples including M2T files (my next suggestion.) Some of them are quicktime MOV (eg H.264, doubt will play) or WMV etc, so they might not play, suggest the MPG/M2T ones only.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=139 is the forum for the HV10, there are lots of other camera forums as well.

OK, one Japan site that had some good sample M2T files: 30-200MB...
http://videosan.web.fc2.com/HV10docs/index.html

Last edited by cgould : 04-02-2007 at 01:02 AM.
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Old 04-02-2007, 12:31 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yunlin12
I know Pirates of the Caribbean 2 has some HD preview that are 720p or 1080p, if you can strip the MPEG2 stream out of it, you can try it.

http://www.comingsoon.net/films.php?id=6175
1080p won't work (need 1080i), and neither would Quicktime, most HD quicktime is H.264 (MPG4) compression which I doubt the S3 would take straight out of the box. You'd need to convert to MPG2 compression (not sure if quicktime pro trial would do that.)
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Old 04-02-2007, 12:58 AM   #49
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Quicktime Pro can export MPEG 2. You just need a serialized version.
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Old 04-02-2007, 01:06 AM   #50
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Nope- Is there a free trial of that, and do random conversions from mpg2 formats into compliant mpg? If not, yeah, I could shoot in the dark, but I'd rather pick up updates of VideoRedo, and the HD video editor competitors to Ulead, than buy something less full featured.

BTW- I just transfered some video from my camcorder, and the mpg produced has exactly the same parameters as CGould's- 25mbps CBR 1440x1080 Upper field first 29.97fps Audio mpeg layer 2 48Khz stereo 16bit.

The S3 ate CGould's file with these characteristics just fine. My directshow pipes must be loused up as is often the case, because I generate these with the same characteristics, and S3 turns its nose up at them.

What a way to spend a Palm Sunday.
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Old 04-02-2007, 02:23 AM   #51
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Ok good news. It looks like folks with camcorders will be able to play their hidef on S3's with the software on there today.

What I am seeing is that 1440x1080 (the format that came off of CGould and my hidef camcorders) works fine at very high rates (20mbps)- so long as you transcode from CBR (constant bit rate) to VBR (variable bit rate). No stuttering/ freezing. Stunning video. S3 is infrickingcredible. The S3 may handle even higher datarates- I just haven't pushed it hard yet. Since the transformation of CBR to VBR is trivial, I expect all the consumer video apps will make this very simple for civilians.

===Warning- entering Video transcoder motorhead talk section====

I figured out why I was fouled up. My directshow pipes were indeed mucked up. I switched my output muxer (moonlight M71 was the culprit) and all is well with Graphedit. The problem with Ulead VideoStudio 10 was that to get anything Hidef, they very unhelpfully only output a transport stream not a program stream ("Mpeg-2" output has no option for PS vs. TS output).

I'll push the limits and see what the max datarate is with VBR. Will try and post some pictures later. Suggestions of test case hidef Mpeg2s are most welcome. A good test case video would be one from some provider that wouldn't mind lots of hits from folks checking my data. I'm not sure this german fellow's video emotion.mpg 1920x1080 fits that bill- the xfer rate was very low.

Last edited by Justin Thyme : 04-02-2007 at 03:04 AM. Reason: clarified some things for civilians
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Old 04-02-2007, 12:24 PM   #52
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sorry if you said already- it's not clear to me-

Have you tried to upload any MP4 video?
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Old 04-02-2007, 02:59 PM   #53
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Yes- in four flavours.

1) H264 output from a Moonlight encoder (using graphedit)
2) MP4 using VLC's encoder (yeah, it is not just a player, but an encoder AND a stream server)
3) WMV
4) AVC encoded by Tivo for an iPod.

Of course, there are hundreds and hundreds of variations on what file wrappers to use, and the settings on the encoders. Only .mpg and .tivo endings showed up in the file list on the S3, so I simply renamed file extensions to .mpg.

All failed. I think there may well be something that works, but to be honest, I am too lazy to methodically go through the plausible permutations. If anyone with a convincing reason why one particular variation should work, if time allows, I'll give them a shot. I didn't think CGould's file would work but it did, so who knows.

If any little birds want to drop a hint, there is always PM (not that anyone ever talks to me).

Due to the lack of Hidef mpeg2 test file suggestions, I think I will go with one of the small japanese M2T files off the site that CGould mentioned, and see what the highest data rate I can get. Hopefully there is one in there with a lot of frame differences to give a good stress test.
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Old 04-02-2007, 05:11 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Thyme
Yes- in four flavours.

1) H264 output from a Moonlight encoder (using graphedit)
2) MP4 using VLC's encoder (yeah, it is not just a player, but an encoder AND a stream server)
3) WMV
4) AVC encoded by Tivo for an iPod.

Of course, there are hundreds and hundreds of variations on what file wrappers to use, and the settings on the encoders. Only .mpg and .tivo endings showed up in the file list on the S3, so I simply renamed file extensions to .mpg.

All failed. I think there may well be something that works, but to be honest, I am too lazy to methodically go through the plausible permutations. If anyone with a convincing reason why one particular variation should work, if time allows, I'll give them a shot. I didn't think CGould's file would work but it did, so who knows.

If any little birds want to drop a hint, there is always PM (not that anyone ever talks to me).

Due to the lack of Hidef mpeg2 test file suggestions, I think I will go with one of the small japanese M2T files off the site that CGould mentioned, and see what the highest data rate I can get. Hopefully there is one in there with a lot of frame differences to give a good stress test.
Have you tried using pipakin's Tivo.Net application yet? I don't remember if it works by MRV or TTCB. But I'm imagining that if it is using TTCB, you'll be able to use it.
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Old 04-02-2007, 06:07 PM   #55
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?? We are discussing running Mpeg4's natively on the S3, and wondering what flavour that the S3 would play (if any as of the current 8.1 software).

Converting to MPEG2 that the Tivo will eat is no problem. (Though I will wager that pipakin doesn't provide for the correct mpeg2 settings to transfer HD to the S3, since we just stumbled on them yesterday).
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Old 04-02-2007, 08:53 PM   #56
MichaelK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Thyme
Yes- in four flavours.

1) H264 output from a Moonlight encoder (using graphedit)
2) MP4 using VLC's encoder (yeah, it is not just a player, but an encoder AND a stream server)
3) WMV
4) AVC encoded by Tivo for an iPod.

Of course, there are hundreds and hundreds of variations on what file wrappers to use, and the settings on the encoders. Only .mpg and .tivo endings showed up in the file list on the S3, so I simply renamed file extensions to .mpg.

All failed. I think there may well be something that works, but to be honest, I am too lazy to methodically go through the plausible permutations. If anyone with a convincing reason why one particular variation should work, if time allows, I'll give them a shot. I didn't think CGould's file would work but it did, so who knows.

If any little birds want to drop a hint, there is always PM (not that anyone ever talks to me).

Due to the lack of Hidef mpeg2 test file suggestions, I think I will go with one of the small japanese M2T files off the site that CGould mentioned, and see what the highest data rate I can get. Hopefully there is one in there with a lot of frame differences to give a good stress test.

thanks for the specifics- bummed...
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:46 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Thyme
?? We are discussing running Mpeg4's natively on the S3, and wondering what flavour that the S3 would play (if any as of the current 8.1 software).

Converting to MPEG2 that the Tivo will eat is no problem. (Though I will wager that pipakin doesn't provide for the correct mpeg2 settings to transfer HD to the S3, since we just stumbled on them yesterday).
Yep, was just wondering if his app worked at all for streaming to the S3. He had said it was likely I believe, but no one had been able to check it.
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Old 04-03-2007, 09:29 AM   #58
MichaelK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_N
Have you tried using pipakin's Tivo.Net application yet? I don't remember if it works by MRV or TTCB. But I'm imagining that if it is using TTCB, you'll be able to use it.

it works by TTCB and that's what seems to be working on the S3 so it will work...
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Old 04-03-2007, 10:10 AM   #59
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Can we petition Tivo to allow this for all non-cable card S3s?

I also have an S3 Tivo with no cable cards installed. I have an antenna connected that picks up about 20 ATSC stations over the air and I have an analog cable connection with about 70 cable channels.

I also have an S2DT and a PC running the Tivo Desktop. I currently serve up my DVD collection to my S2DT from my PC. I would love to be able to do the same for my S3.

Tivo cannot use the excuse that it doesn't work or that they are bound by cable labs because it has been demonstrated to work and I have no cable cards installed.
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Old 04-03-2007, 10:21 AM   #60
MichaelK
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I dont think you need to petition- the fact it sort of works shows they are working on it. But if you read the specifics it's not yet ready for primetime (locks up and crashes at times). When it's done it will be on your box.

I guess maybe people posting in these type threads or writing petitions would show them it's important to us and they should devote sufficient resources to it- but if they haven't figured that out yet I'm not sure what the deal is.

As much as I want it today- we have to keep things in perspective- recent cable filings to the FCC indicate that there's something like 20-30,000 S3's in the wild at this point. There's probably something on the order of magnitude of like a million S2's (give or take a few hundred thou...). THey have spent millions on S3 R&D so far- making the S3 a huge money pit. On the plus side the S3 is it's flagship and likely the basis for the new upcoming CHEAP HD DVR they are working on. So there's a balance of priorities going on.
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