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Old 03-17-2007, 11:11 AM   #121
sfhub
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbourgeo
It basically consolidates the functionality of both jberman's scripts combined into one with lots of additional validation. It makes sure you use DST before it makes any change and has logic to automatically figure what change to make, including the EST special case.
Thanks for posting the specifics.

It is just good to know how something is implemented so we can know the caveats.

So this is essentially the TZ-offset workaround with extra validation.

Infinitely better than what was there before. Thanks jberman, et al.
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Old 03-17-2007, 02:10 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TiVoPony
Our engineers had worked on the problem, and had not come up with a solution that would take care of all Series1 standalone systems.
Pony
How disappointing that TiVo was able to fix the Series 1 DirecTV TiVos, but not the SA TiVo (the ones you still pay $12.95/mo for). Please don't insult us by saying that no solution could be found. The solution consists of changing the formula for computing the daylight savings times.

What TiVoPony obviously meant was that no solution could be found that didn't involve a full software update. This is likely expensive to download this over a modem and the accountants said NO.

Let's stop pretending that the change was hard or even significantly different from the Series 2 fix. It was purely a financial decision.

This new fix, developed by a member of the community, was just the opportunity the engineers needed to convince management that they could do a low cost update.

In the future, I wish TiVo would come clean about the support that we can expect on Series 1 machines.

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Old 03-17-2007, 09:14 PM   #123
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We have an ancient Sony SVR 2000 with an added 100Gig drive upgrade and we ordered the DST patch. It was apparently downloaded this morning (3/17/07) at 11:00 by phone, a different time than the usual 2:00 a.m. schedule update.

For several hours, the status of the "Phone Connection" was said to be "Loading Data" with no change to the 1 hour error situation, but no other problems either. Finally, at 7:00 p.m. I decided to turn the machine off (pull the plug) for one minute to see if this would change anything. We have a new TiVO on order and due to arrive on Monday, so if I hosed the machine, what the heck?.

The result? Total joy. Everything is now as it should be. Time is now correct and all programs on the To Do list have "sprung forward" one hour.

Y

Last edited by yelapa : 03-17-2007 at 09:17 PM. Reason: add info
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Old 03-18-2007, 03:47 AM   #124
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KInd of weird thing happened. I've been waiting to get the patch. I just walked in and saw the TiVo was recording after 3:00 AM something that was suppose to end at 1:00 AM. And, the TiVo had restarted at 3:00 AM on the dot so that there were 2 listings for what it was recording in the Now Playing List: one listing from 11:00 PM - 3:00 AM and one listing from 3:00 AM - the current time. So why was the recording so long and why did TiVo restart at 3:00 AM? Is it a coincidence that the patch came in during this time?
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Old 03-18-2007, 08:12 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by RARamaker
Please don't insult us by saying that no solution could be found.
It is interesting how fixated some folks are about wording, and yet research shows that often customers respond best to wording that they seem to complain the most about, i.e., that customers' purchasing behaviors belie the content of what they whine about. In another forum, this morning, we're talking about the effects of a restaurant greeter providing information about how long of a wait it will be for a table. In that case, evidently the more positive the greeter is about the impending dining experience, the better, yet online people love to complain about how "false" and how "ridiculous" it sounds for the greeter to try to make a guest feel enthusiastic about a wait for a table. Yet, there it is; what we do is radically different what what we say we'll do.
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Old 03-18-2007, 08:16 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by bicker
It is interesting how fixated some folks are about wording, and yet research shows that often customers respond best to wording that they seem to complain the most about, i.e., that customers' purchasing behaviors belie the content of what they whine about. In another forum, this morning, we're talking about the effects of a restaurant greeter providing information about how long of a wait it will be for a table. In that case, evidently the more positive the greeter is about the impending dining experience, the better, yet online people love to complain about how "false" and how "ridiculous" it sounds for the greeter to try to make a guest feel enthusiastic about a wait for a table. Yet, there it is; what we do is radically different what what we say we'll do.
I have no idea what your point is. My point was that TiVo very likely knows the real fix to the problem, but is unwilling to provide it due to the cost. I just think they should admit it.
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Old 03-18-2007, 09:08 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by RARamaker
I have no idea what your point is. My point was that TiVo very likely knows the real fix to the problem, but is unwilling to provide it due to the cost. I just think they should admit it.
yah that big lie of sending anyone that asks a fix for DST on the S1 is just such a worse way to go.
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Old 03-18-2007, 10:17 PM   #128
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Just to add my comments -- great job all around everyone. This is good work. Round of drinks on me!

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Old 03-19-2007, 06:42 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by RARamaker
My point was that TiVo very likely knows the real fix to the problem, but is unwilling to provide it due to the cost. I just think they should admit it.
How much will saying things the way you want them to say thing improve their bottom line? Understand that the way you want them to say things is your personal preference, and there isn't even any indication whatsoever that even you will respond better to them wording things the way you suggest. You're asserting your way is better -- I'm saying you haven't proved that, and you're probably wrong.
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Old 03-19-2007, 11:09 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by RARamaker
I have no idea what your point is. My point was that TiVo very likely knows the real fix to the problem, but is unwilling to provide it due to the cost. I just think they should admit it.
I've worked at a company where they blamed the engineers when it was really a management decision. Basically, managment didn't give enough money to investigate the problem, then when the money ran out, engineering got blamed for not finding a fix. It was rather embarrasing for the company and hurt morale.

Here, Tivo has admitted that it was totally incompetent. It couldn't make a basic fix in its software for one of its formerly premier products. It couldn't even conceive of the work-around that they are distributing now. Did Tivo lose the source code? Is the code "spaghetti code" (i.e. so poorly written and difficult to follow that it is impossible for a new programmer to modify it)? Did they try really hard to fix it? And why aren't there any programmers or systems engineers from the S1 development team left in the company?

It's nice that they (most likely) didn't lie, and a fix (incomplete, but good enough) is indeed coming. But why do I still feel a little unsettled?
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Old 03-19-2007, 11:13 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by BobCamp1
It's nice that they (most likely) didn't lie, and a fix (incomplete, but good enough) is indeed coming. But why do I still feel a little unsettled?
Because if it weren't for the TCF hackers, the series 1 would not be supported?


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Old 03-19-2007, 12:19 PM   #132
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Basically it really sounds like, for whatever reason, TiVo is very adverse to sending out a full software update for S1 units. There are many theories why that may be the case, but only TiVo people will know which ones are relevant. From the outside, we just know to really start worrying if the only fix for a problem would also require a full software download, because that appears to be sticky point with TiVo.

It sounds like all their investigation involved ways to resolve the DST problem which specifically did not require a full software download.

How do we know this? Because many people on this thread have reasonable amounts of software development background and realize that changing the effective dates of an *existing mechanism* is a much simpler change than implementing a new mechanism. If the dates are hard coded into the code it is a relatively simple matter to update those hard coded dates. The hardest part would probably be recompling the code and setting it up for distribution.

It would be slightly more complex to "fix" it for real and externalize the DST calculations completely, but that wouldn't be necessary for a quick fix that would satisfy the vast majority of customers.

Anyway, it looks like they had some amount of tunnel vision regarding DST and didn't realize a TZ offset could be used to simulate a DST change (with some minor cosmetic issues)

I'm glad they did the right thing once this was pointed out to them.
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Old 03-19-2007, 12:46 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by sfhub

I'm glad they did the right thing once this was pointed out to them.
Once it was pointed out to them, they didn't have much of a choice.
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Old 03-19-2007, 01:34 PM   #134
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I'm glad TiVo did choose to implement jberman's (thanks!) fix. But in the proof that people can be very petty and anything can be complained about... I was excited to see my S1 say "Pending Restart"
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Old 03-19-2007, 01:39 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by technomutt
Going from the sublime to the completely ridiculous, I must ask: Will this include a fix for the Year 2038 problem?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem

Gee, how many Series 1 units will still be alive then????
I intend to keep mine alive until then and I DEMAND support!
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Old 03-21-2007, 07:13 PM   #136
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I received the update, but lost a whole bunch of channels. I have DirecTV but the stand alone Tivo wouldnt show any HBO channels or aobve and some other channels like DIY (230). So then I tried GUIDED setup, which got stuck at 64% for a long time, so I pulled plug, turned back on and started again. Cant wait to see how long it takes, or if it completes
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Old 03-21-2007, 07:21 PM   #137
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So....I noticed that all of the shows for 4/1 and after (i.e. a week from this coming sunday) are showing an hour LATE now (when the original DST would have happened). Will Tivo be sending out another "fix" at some point to adjust this, or what will happen? Just wondering...
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Old 03-21-2007, 07:27 PM   #138
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looks like tivo opted for the 4 changes per year... I THINK it could've been done with 2, but they probably have their reasons.
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Old 03-21-2007, 10:53 PM   #139
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For what it's worth, I would like to thank Jberman for figuring the fix out, the Tivo Community for shining the bright light, and TiVoJerry and TiVoPony and the rest at TiVo for implementing this fix.

All I'd like for my TiVo for Christmas, now, is the ability to add Canadian Postal Codes to my HDR112 so that I can use my subscription to get Canadian program listings.

Merry Christmas.
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Old 03-21-2007, 11:13 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Carriere
All I'd like for my TiVo for Christmas, now, is the ability to add Canadian Postal Codes to my HDR112 so that I can use my subscription to get Canadian program listings.
Carriere -

Have you checked out this site? http://tivoza.nanfo.com/wiki/index.p...s_1_LocationID

Looks like it might have a solution to your problem.
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Old 03-22-2007, 03:23 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by jberman
Carriere -

Have you checked out this site? http://tivoza.nanfo.com/wiki/index.p...s_1_LocationID

Looks like it might have a solution to your problem.
Thanks for the tip. Unfortunately, I had tried it and had lots of problems. It's the reason I delayed putting my posting up until last night instead of last week. I wanted to resolve the emuProxyZA issues before I signed up for the DST fix. I would not recommend emuProxyZA for Canadian Postal Codes. (Keep in mind that I'm a Linux rookie and maybe someone more expert may have success.) I'm looking forward to the DST update taking effect in the next day or so.

Regarding the DST fix, I don't keep my TiVo connected to a phone line because a daily call is unnecessary without Canadian Postal Codes and so no Canadian guide data. I only connect to the TiVo service to reset the clock whenever I see that the clock has drifted too much. If I'm reading the forum correctly, every spring I'll need to set the clock twice and every fall I'll need to set the clock twice (assuming the government sticks the new DST days). Is this correct? Not a big deal and much more convenient than changing all of my manual programming, especially when you consider that all of my programming is manual due to no Canadian guide data.

=======

Here's another thought... why don't some of us Series 1 customers put some money where our mouths are? The way I look at it is TiVo has made the decision to not provide software updates for business reasons and that at this stage its up to the TiVo User Community to help create a business case to change this. What I'm suggesting is that the User Community put together a list of items that we would like to have updated in the software and back it up with a voluntary payment to TiVo. Its been several years since the last software update so I think everyone knows what they would like on their Series 1 software update wish-list off the top of their heads. There could be some sort of voting to ensure a quality list of items. There would also need to be some way to make the payments in a secure place, where it could be refunded if TiVo doesn't take us up on the offer.

What's in it for TiVo? A way to settle many people's concerns about updates that we would really like to see. TiVo could also use it as a stake in the ground as far as no other updates. Clearly, TiVo's responsiveness to the Series 1 customer base would go very far. Current Series 2 customers and new customers to TiVo are looking at how the Series 1 customers are being treated and I'm sure that TiVo must know that it is in TiVo's best interests to treat Series 1 customers well. (This is not to say I don't think that we are being treated well - in fact my opinion is that we are, given the current constraints e.g. DST fix).

I really don't know if there would be enough interest for TiVo to take this seriously. But it can't hurt to try. What would a reasonable amount be? $10? $20? If its $10 and 5,000 users, it would be $50k. I don't know if it would cover all of the development costs, but maybe TiVo would top off the shortfall.

For my wish list, my #1 item would be incorporating the ability to enter Canadian Postal Codes during Guided Setup (not surprizing, I'm sure, given my Christmas wish exchange with jberman).

Another item that may be useful is the DST update. As I understand it at a very high level, the current fix has been based on the requirement for no software update. What if we don't have that constraint? Would it be better for the software to be updated now in some way (maybe change the way the sofware uses the time from the server) so that if there is a decision to change DST again, TiVo can affect the change without any change to the software and in a way that it is transparent to the end-user? My point is less about how the optimal solution could work (a discussion point unto itself I expect), and more that maybe we could have an even better fix if we are not constrained by the latest software release.

I know that there are many people who firmly believe that the subscriptions, original purchase prices, etc. should pay for the development costs for any Series 1 updates. If that is the view, I completely respect that. In anticipation of that, I have donned my flame-retardent suit for those who think I'm completely off my rocker and feel compelled to say so.
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Old 03-22-2007, 04:37 PM   #142
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I'd like to see Series 1 and 2 TiVos be able to change channels on the new OTA digital tv converter boxes. My Winegard box has a serial port as well as IR remote control. Since the TiVos are already doing this with cable and satellite boxes seems this would be possible with the existing hardware, and I would be willing to put up a few ponys to pay for it. I use my TiVo in my RV all summer watching from a OTA antenna and will need this.
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Old 03-22-2007, 04:46 PM   #143
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If you want to put together a wishlist of items for series1, you might want to make it a new thread instead of putting it at the end of this one. Just a thought....
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Old 03-22-2007, 04:48 PM   #144
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I'd like to see Series 1 and 2 TiVos be able to change channels on the new OTA digital tv converter boxes. My Winegard box has a serial port as well as IR remote control. Since the TiVos are already doing this with cable and satellite boxes seems this would be possible with the existing hardware, and I would be willing to put up a few ponys to pay for it. I use my TiVo in my RV all summer watching from a OTA antenna and will need this.
I don't believe that the hardware in the S3 is that close to what is in the S2 or S1. However I've never opened a box and if I did I wouldn't be able to tell to be perfectly honest. Still the price of the S3 suggest to me that hardware has to be much different.

If you really want to enjoy this feature, I think you need to buy an S3. I doubt TiVo is going to make an "adapter" or a card to make this happen.
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Old 03-22-2007, 06:15 PM   #145
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Quick question for you guys: I've got a Series 1, and I signed up for and got the DST patch. My guide data is now current through 4/2, and I've noticed that recordings starting 4/1 are an hour ahead of "real life" -- meaning, a 3pm hockey game is listed as starting at 4pm. Is that just part of the patch -- will the listings correct themselves come 4/1? Or is something wrong with the patch? I'm worried because the night I got the patch, my Tivo froze on "Loading Data" in the phone-call screen, and I had to power-cycle it and redo the phone call, so I'm not sure if this is how the patch is supposed to work. Thanks much!
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Old 03-22-2007, 06:57 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by pcurthoys
Quick question for you guys: I've got a Series 1, and I signed up for and got the DST patch. My guide data is now current through 4/2, and I've noticed that recordings starting 4/1 are an hour ahead of "real life" -- meaning, a 3pm hockey game is listed as starting at 4pm. Is that just part of the patch -- will the listings correct themselves come 4/1?
Yes, the listings will correct themselves on 4/1.

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Old 03-22-2007, 07:12 PM   #147
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Dandy, thanks much!
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Old 03-22-2007, 07:20 PM   #148
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Time Change

I just feel that since Tivo has your Email Address, and also knows what you already own, they should just send out Notices instead of having people need to Sign Up for an Upgrade!
For the very little Actual Service we Pay for every Month, I feel they should be more Consumer oriented. You can never even get through on the Phone, so we have to settle our own problems here! I have yet to solve anything here!!
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Old 03-22-2007, 07:26 PM   #149
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I just feel that since Tivo has your Email Address, and also knows what you already own, they should just send out Notices instead of having people need to Sign Up for an Upgrade!
For the very little Actual Service we Pay for every Month, I feel they should be more Consumer oriented. You can never even get through on the Phone, so we have to settle our own problems here! I have yet to solve anything here!!
TiVo made the correct decision in not sending this out to everyone, yet.

They already sent notices out telling people to change their manual recordings... the patch would break those changed recordings, so they haven't sent it out to everyone.

When they send out a message for april 1st reminding people that the recordings need to be changed BACK, then they'll be able to send out the patch to everyone (but won't have to until october, because times will be accurate until then).
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Old 03-22-2007, 07:27 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Carriere
Thanks for the tip. Unfortunately, I had tried it and had lots of problems. It's the reason I delayed putting my posting up until last night instead of last week. I wanted to resolve the emuProxyZA issues before I signed up for the DST fix. I would not recommend emuProxyZA for Canadian Postal Codes. (Keep in mind that I'm a Linux rookie and maybe someone more expert may have success.) I'm looking forward to the DST update taking effect in the next day or so.

Regarding the DST fix, I don't keep my TiVo connected to a phone line because a daily call is unnecessary without Canadian Postal Codes and so no Canadian guide data. I only connect to the TiVo service to reset the clock whenever I see that the clock has drifted too much. If I'm reading the forum correctly, every spring I'll need to set the clock twice and every fall I'll need to set the clock twice (assuming the government sticks the new DST days). Is this correct? Not a big deal and much more convenient than changing all of my manual programming, especially when you consider that all of my programming is manual due to no Canadian guide data.

=======

Here's another thought... why don't some of us Series 1 customers put some money where our mouths are? The way I look at it is TiVo has made the decision to not provide software updates for business reasons and that at this stage its up to the TiVo User Community to help create a business case to change this. What I'm suggesting is that the User Community put together a list of items that we would like to have updated in the software and back it up with a voluntary payment to TiVo. Its been several years since the last software update so I think everyone knows what they would like on their Series 1 software update wish-list off the top of their heads. There could be some sort of voting to ensure a quality list of items. There would also need to be some way to make the payments in a secure place, where it could be refunded if TiVo doesn't take us up on the offer.

What's in it for TiVo? A way to settle many people's concerns about updates that we would really like to see. TiVo could also use it as a stake in the ground as far as no other updates. Clearly, TiVo's responsiveness to the Series 1 customer base would go very far. Current Series 2 customers and new customers to TiVo are looking at how the Series 1 customers are being treated and I'm sure that TiVo must know that it is in TiVo's best interests to treat Series 1 customers well. (This is not to say I don't think that we are being treated well - in fact my opinion is that we are, given the current constraints e.g. DST fix).

I really don't know if there would be enough interest for TiVo to take this seriously. But it can't hurt to try. What would a reasonable amount be? $10? $20? If its $10 and 5,000 users, it would be $50k. I don't know if it would cover all of the development costs, but maybe TiVo would top off the shortfall.

For my wish list, my #1 item would be incorporating the ability to enter Canadian Postal Codes during Guided Setup (not surprizing, I'm sure, given my Christmas wish exchange with jberman).

Another item that may be useful is the DST update. As I understand it at a very high level, the current fix has been based on the requirement for no software update. What if we don't have that constraint? Would it be better for the software to be updated now in some way (maybe change the way the sofware uses the time from the server) so that if there is a decision to change DST again, TiVo can affect the change without any change to the software and in a way that it is transparent to the end-user? My point is less about how the optimal solution could work (a discussion point unto itself I expect), and more that maybe we could have an even better fix if we are not constrained by the latest software release.

I know that there are many people who firmly believe that the subscriptions, original purchase prices, etc. should pay for the development costs for any Series 1 updates. If that is the view, I completely respect that. In anticipation of that, I have donned my flame-retardent suit for those who think I'm completely off my rocker and feel compelled to say so.
"What's in it for TiVo?"
I had to laugh when I read this!! What do they have to gain?? You may at some time need to Purchase a New Unit, Plus you lose any Deal you had for the Subscription prices!
I have had 3 Updates to Both my Units in the last 6 Months, but they are both Series 2, the Series that replaced 1, and they don't want to be bothered with Series 1 Units anymore. They probably figured they would all be broken by now, as their Machines don't have the Best Reliability Track Record!! After reading many Posts, I have concluded they have about a 2 Yr. Life Expectancy, which puts all you Series 1 owners out in the cold!!
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