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Old 02-12-2007, 09:47 PM   #1
fluke
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Series 1 owners to get no March 11 DST support

I have a Tivo Series 1 made my Phillips that came with Tivo version 2.5 and later updated to Tivo version 3.0. I have helped blessed additional drive space on several Tivos and know from looking at the files that Tivo uses the same standard timezone files that every other linux distribution uses. When it dials up for updated guide information, it syncs it's clock using a standard method known as NTP (Network Time Protocol) which transmits the time in GMT (Greenwich Mean Time). With NTP, it is up to the software getting the time to translate the GMT time to the correct local time. That means that NTP by itself will never correct for changes in DST (Daylist Saving Time) as will occur in the US on March 11.

After talking to Tivo support, I got the following answers about when/if the time zone files will ever be updated:

"It will correct the time automatically when it gets guide information."

- Wrong! Tivo update time using NTP which is given in GMT. Changes in local time offsets require changing the zone files on the tivo itself.


"Just go through guided setup if the Tivo to correct the daylight savings time setting"

- Wrong! Going through the guided setup will not update the local zone files. It might be possible to use guided setup to set the Tivo incorrectly to a time zone that is one hour ahead but such a work-around requires remembering to go through the guided setup *FOUR* times a year for something that the Tivo should be doing itself.


"You need to call Phillips for support"

- Wrong! The user manual that comes with the Series 1 clearly states that Phillips only provided support for the *hardware* and the software support is Tivo's responsiblity. The battery which helps the tivo keep track of time even when it is unplugged is still working and there are no other indications of hardware issues. Updates to the time zone files for supporting the Energy Act of 2005 is a *software* issue.


"How long have you had that Tivo? We do not support it anymore -- it is not going to happen."

- Bad answer! There is nothing in the user manual about when support ends. There has been information from Tivo that with the "lifetime" subscription there will be free updates including fixes. It has been explained that "lifetime" is defined to be while the unit is still functioning. It appears that Tivo does not actually support the tivo software during the full lifetime of the unit. Given this premature dropping of support with Tivo products, I can no longer advocate users to choose Tivo over other DVR solutions.
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Old 02-12-2007, 09:51 PM   #2
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You're attempting to state as a fact that there will be no update -- but one of the other threads had a Tivo employee say that they WERE thinking of series 1 users. They weren't promising anything (essentially no company ever does).. but they were obviously aware of the issue.
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Old 02-13-2007, 12:03 AM   #3
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I'll add my voice to mattack's.

TiVo Jerry said he'd be getting back to us about this, and I noted he did mention Series 1 machines, SUBBED and UNSUBBED. Didn't make any promises, but said those are being kept in mind.

Here's a link to the thread:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=339075

But Jerry's comment was as follows-
"Our engineering teams have been discussing and working on the new DST schedule since it was announced early last year. I am still working on understanding every single support aspect for the various platforms (S1 {subbed and unsubbed}, S2, S3, DTV {S1, S2}) and countries (Canadian customers with S2 or DTV units, BSkyB & TGC), as well as how this will be delivered and communicated. I will have to wait until I have all of those details fully understood before posting an official statement publicly, but will make sure that I post those details in entirety within this thread. It is my personal goal to have that information available before the end of the month, if not sooner.

"Please continue discussing and theorizing, as there may always be a scenario I haven't taken into consideration. I'm aiming to have a single posting with all appropriate information, but it may be necessary to also post a new thread so the information will be easy to find in the first post without searching through the whole discussion. "

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Old 02-13-2007, 01:26 AM   #4
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If I were paying TiVo monthly for service on an S1, I'd be very very P*SSED if the DST transition didn't work smoothly.

The fact that it's even being "discussed" instead of just being done is astonishing to me.
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Old 02-13-2007, 02:00 AM   #5
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fluke, I'm sorry, but you're wrong about how the recording engine works. It works completely off GMT. All guide data is provided to us in GMT. As you say, NTP updates the correct GMT time.

So, even if TiVo Inc. did absolutely nothing for Series1 users, 100% of your Season Pass and one-time recordings would still work perfectly, since the GMT schedule is not affected by local DST at all. Your local offset ONLY applies for display issues (that is, what time is shown in the guide).

If we did nothing, you'd see the wrong time listed in the guide, but recordings would still work. The correct time GMT is always provided when your unit makes a connection.

So, the first answer given to you by support is correct. (I'm not happy with any of their other answers, however; please provide me with any agent names who gave you the other answers so we can make sure they're educated on this subject.)

As Jerry and Pony have already said, we don't plan on doing nothing. Details are forthcoming.

Many of us TiVo employees are Series1 users. We're not going to leave you high and dry.

I've been working here eight years. In eight years, while many of our competitors have sold DVRs that have had major DST issues, I've never seen any real problems with TiVo's software. (We did have a bug with repeating manual recordings back in 2000, but it was quickly corrected.)
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Old 02-13-2007, 08:35 AM   #6
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I wish people would write their congressman about all these DST issues. They need to know that their fiddling with the time has consequences. Listening to their speeches it sounds like it's a null effect proposition.
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Old 02-13-2007, 01:39 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krosis
I wish people would write their congressman about all these DST issues. They need to know that their fiddling with the time has consequences. Listening to their speeches it sounds like it's a null effect proposition.
Not an issue here....No DST.
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Old 02-13-2007, 02:07 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Krosis
I wish people would write their congressman about all these DST issues. They need to know that their fiddling with the time has consequences. Listening to their speeches it sounds like it's a null effect proposition.
Writing them wouldn't do any good. Since they are all pretty much 12'oclock flashers they can't grasp the ramifications (if you don't know what that is check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be3alRoxkOo)
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Old 02-13-2007, 02:50 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by mitkraft
Writing them wouldn't do any good. Since they are all pretty much 12'oclock flashers they can't grasp the ramifications (if you don't know what that is check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be3alRoxkOo)
I always wanted to sell a little add on LCD thing that would falsh 12:00 on the front of the TiVo - but then I have a warped sense of humor.
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Old 02-13-2007, 04:16 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TiVoStephen
fluke, I'm sorry, but you're wrong about how the recording engine works. It works completely off GMT. All guide data is provided to us in GMT. As you say, NTP updates the correct GMT time.

So, even if TiVo Inc. did absolutely nothing for Series1 users, 100% of your Season Pass and one-time recordings would still work perfectly, since the GMT schedule is not affected by local DST at all. Your local offset ONLY applies for display issues (that is, what time is shown in the guide).
Ok. So, just to confirm I understand you correctly... I have gotten sick of Tivo recording the Daily Show with John S. multiple times a day so I have manual recordings set up for it (and other similar situations). Your saying the time is for display issues only and will not have any impact on my non-guide selected manual recording?


Quote:
Originally Posted by TiVoStephen
So, the first answer given to you by support is correct. (I'm not happy with any of their other answers, however; please provide me with any agent names who gave you the other answers so we can make sure they're educated on this subject.)
I didn't go into this taking down names. When I hear from phone support that "I have checked with my supervisor and WE DO NOT SUPPORT PHILLIPS SERIES 1 AT ALL" then I take that at face value. The claim that Phillips supports *EVERY* aspect of the Series 1 was stated by more than one phone support person as well. This is not a misunderstanding or an education issue for an individual Tivo support person, this is that Series 1 people do not get support or need to go through hoops for support.

Even if only non-guide manual recordings are effected, Tivo is still pushing the issue of support of the software to me by claiming that Phillips is responsible for something they clearly are not. I can either change the manual recordings four times a year or try to update the time zone files myself.

Even if Tivo decides to provide an update for their Tivo v3.x software for DST, the message is still clear that software support is still being provided ad-hoc at Tivo discretion. There is no commitment to Series 1 and Tivo was use artifical restrictions, such as refusing to provide Now Showing folder groupings, to try to help compete with it own abandoned legacy product.

The message sent out to early adopters of Tivo was that Tivo would continue to improve with "free updates" over the "lifetime" of the product. There where even claims that Series 2 would not stop new features coming to Series 1 but features requiring the Series 2 hardware would but the only things never to be provided on the Series 1. What **hardware** issues are there in providing DST updates or Now Showing grouping folders to the Series 1?

The big difference between Tivo and MythTv is **support**. Once responsiblity for support is pushed out to the customer, MythTv clearly becomes a preferable system. Paying $400 for a three year *commitment* is only reasonable if the commitment is clearly in both directions. If Tivo can arbitrarily decide to stop or only provide ad-hoc support at any time then the 3 year commitment is only the customer being commited to a company that has no true commitment back. Having rights to guide data for unsupported software is like being able to have batteries with nothing to put them in.
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Old 02-13-2007, 06:00 PM   #11
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Anyone know what company runs tivo's support phone bank? It'd be nice to know, just for future reference.

... and if one day I call in for support just to be told, "WE DO NOT SUPPORT PHILLIPS SERIES 1 AT ALL" (I still use two daily) you bet your boots I'll be taking down names.

Knowing what I do about tivo, there's no way in god's green earth that I'd take that at face value. Drop support for a platform that's still generating revenue??? No freakin' way!
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Old 03-03-2007, 12:17 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TiVoStephen
fluke, I'm sorry, but you're wrong about how the recording engine works. It works completely off GMT. All guide data is provided to us in GMT. As you say, NTP updates the correct GMT time.

So, even if TiVo Inc. did absolutely nothing for Series1 users, 100% of your Season Pass and one-time recordings would still work perfectly, since the GMT schedule is not affected by local DST at all. Your local offset ONLY applies for display issues (that is, what time is shown in the guide).

If we did nothing, you'd see the wrong time listed in the guide, but recordings would still work. The correct time GMT is always provided when your unit makes a connection.

So, the first answer given to you by support is correct. (I'm not happy with any of their other answers, however; please provide me with any agent names who gave you the other answers so we can make sure they're educated on this subject.)

As Jerry and Pony have already said, we don't plan on doing nothing. Details are forthcoming.

Many of us TiVo employees are Series1 users. We're not going to leave you high and dry.

I've been working here eight years. In eight years, while many of our competitors have sold DVRs that have had major DST issues, I've never seen any real problems with TiVo's software. (We did have a bug with repeating manual recordings back in 2000, but it was quickly corrected.)
So....since we're now about a week away from the time change, what's going to happen with the S1 users that aren't going to be left "high and dry"? Just getting close to the deadline so I think most of us are kind of curious...
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Old 03-03-2007, 12:45 PM   #13
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I'm getting sort of antzy too.

If the clock isn't going to change (and so is WRONG on the morning of the 12th), I'm not even sure how to schedule my manual recording start and stop times. Move everything back an hour until we get to the former date for the clock changing? Then have to move them forward again when the machine's clock starts showing the correct time again (I assume)?
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Old 03-03-2007, 01:50 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gastrof
I'm getting sort of antzy too.

If the clock isn't going to change (and so is WRONG on the morning of the 12th), I'm not even sure how to schedule my manual recording start and stop times. Move everything back an hour until we get to the former date for the clock changing? Then have to move them forward again when the machine's clock starts showing the correct time again (I assume)?
If I read this correctly all times are GMT inside the TiVo, on March 12 a program that would start at 9PM DST would show up as starting at 8PM on your TiVo guide data so do not use any outside guide source for your TV program times, just use the TiVo guide times which may be off an hour from the outside guides but if you set your manual recordings for the TiVo guide time you will have no problem with any Series 1 or 2 ( Series 3 has the problem fixed already) recordings. This time thing should not be any problem if TiVo recorded the programs you want but showing the start of the program as EST not DST.

So if you had a Humax DVD TiVo and a program started at 9PM DST on March 12th at 9PM, on your wall clock (that you moved ahead 1 hour before you went to sleep the night before) the recording would start 9PM; on your Humax the recording would start when the Humax clock read 8PM.
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Old 03-03-2007, 02:55 PM   #15
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If I was a Series 1 Owner and paying Monthly, I would be more than a little Pi**ed at the lack of support!

If Tivo cannot support Series 1 Owners, either they need to stop charging them for service, or perhaps offer a FREE upgrade to a later unit.

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 03-03-2007, 03:09 PM   #16
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I already have guide data for shows that are after the DST start. Shows that normally start at 7:00 say they will record at 6:00 PM. Of course, the TiVo will think it's 6:00 PM when it's really 7:00 PM. Everything will record just fine as long as you have season passes or are selecting programs out of the guide.

No worries.
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Old 03-03-2007, 05:21 PM   #17
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If I was a Series 1 Owner and paying Monthly...
Are there any S1 monthly folks around? I can't imagine there are.
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Old 03-03-2007, 05:35 PM   #18
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Are there any S1 monthly folks around? I can't imagine there are.
I have two Series 1's, both with lifetime service. As long as they are operating, my three Series 2 units get cheaper multiple-unit service fees. Why on earth would I ever consider stopping using the Series 1's as long as they work?

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Old 03-03-2007, 05:51 PM   #19
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Are there any S1 monthly folks around? I can't imagine there are.
And if they are why did they not go to a Series 2 when it was FREE !!!, same monthly fee (so you sign up for a year on a new unit).
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Old 03-03-2007, 08:22 PM   #20
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Many people have the Series 1's still, and are on Monthly Service.

You can pick them up cheap, and they make great add ons to your Tivo Collection.
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Old 03-03-2007, 08:57 PM   #21
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Hey now, stop knocking the S1 folks
I have to agree that yes it does make me nervous when we are seemingly cast to the wind. Was it not us that helped Tivo in the beginning? If it is this easy for the powers that be to abandon us, who will speak up when they come for you Series 2 owners. They could just say scr#w you and stop support to all but DTV DVR's?

Food for thought........
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Old 03-04-2007, 12:28 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TiVoStephen
So, even if TiVo Inc. did absolutely nothing for Series1 users, 100% of your Season Pass and one-time recordings would still work perfectly, since the GMT schedule is not affected by local DST at all. Your local offset ONLY applies for display issues (that is, what time is shown in the guide).

If we did nothing, you'd see the wrong time listed in the guide, but recordings would still work. The correct time GMT is always provided when your unit makes a connection.
Uh... so new manual recordings will mysteriously know the correct gmt offset on March 11 if Tivo does nothing? I don't think so. Let's hope Tivo isn't asleep on this... they've had what, close to 2 years to figure this out?
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Old 03-04-2007, 02:58 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ah30k
Are there any S1 monthly folks around? I can't imagine there are.
One of my S1 TiVos is Lifetime and the other is monthly.

Jan
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Old 03-04-2007, 10:52 AM   #24
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If I read this thread, here at the end everyone is still saying how awful that Tivo isn't supporting the S1, even after the Ops guy came in and said they ARE fixing it. Daahhhh!
Guys, I think like they ARE going to support it, just a hunch based on what he said. Maybe I am overly bright. As for why haven't I got the fix yet, well, it doesn't need to go out early, and I bet they may add some other little fixes they didn't have to do but might as well now do. Maybe get rid of that TIVO PARTY INVITE on menu that they did manage to change to TIVO NOW IN HD! but it still has nothing there when selected, Just a guess. Hey Stephen, if you aren't fixing that maybe you can still add it. After all you could SELL ADS here, that ought to get your interest.
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Old 03-04-2007, 10:54 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ESPalmer
Hey now, stop knocking the S1 folks
I have to agree that yes it does make me nervous when we are seemingly cast to the wind. Was it not us that helped Tivo in the beginning? If it is this easy for the powers that be to abandon us, who will speak up when they come for you Series 2 owners. They could just say scr#w you and stop support to all but DTV DVR's?

Food for thought........
I am fully supporting the plight of the Series 1 Owners, and yes, the Series 2 will be next to go......

As for the "New Series 3", yes it is great... if you have cable!!!

What exactly is Tivo trying to do? Alienate all Series 1 Owners, kick all Sat users aside? More food for thought.
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Old 03-04-2007, 08:05 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lessd
If I read this correctly all times are GMT inside the TiVo, on March 12 a program that would start at 9PM DST would show up as starting at 8PM on your TiVo guide data so do not use any outside guide source for your TV program times, just use the TiVo guide times which may be off an hour from the outside guides but if you set your manual recordings for the TiVo guide time you will have no problem with any Series 1 or 2 ( Series 3 has the problem fixed already) recordings. This time thing should not be any problem if TiVo recorded the programs you want but showing the start of the program as EST not DST.

So if you had a Humax DVD TiVo and a program started at 9PM DST on March 12th at 9PM, on your wall clock (that you moved ahead 1 hour before you went to sleep the night before) the recording would start 9PM; on your Humax the recording would start when the Humax clock read 8PM.

You apparently missed the fact I'm talking, not about recordings made off TiVo guide data, but rather manual recordings where I have to put in the channel, length, and the start time.

If the time being displayed by the clock in the machine is off an hour, seems I'll have to make a change to all my manual recording setups. (Please also note that my machines are unsubbed...see my sig.)
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Old 03-04-2007, 08:44 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gastrof
You apparently missed the fact I'm talking, not about recordings made off TiVo guide data, but rather manual recordings where I have to put in the channel, length, and the start time.

If the time being displayed by the clock in the machine is off an hour, seems I'll have to make a change to all my manual recording setups. (Please also note that my machines are unsubbed...see my sig.)
Are you really expecting to get a software update on an unsubbed machine?

Has that ever happened?

If Stephen said that they are working on it, I'm 100% certain that they actually are and will be doing everything in their power to get the update out before next weekend. No "What exactly is Tivo trying to do? Alienate all Series 1 Owners, kick all Sat users aside? More food for thought." conspiracy theories needed.

Edit: That came across a little shorter than I intended, Gastrof - I really am genuinely curious, I didn't think that unsubbed boxes called into anywhere (making it hard to get the updates). I didn't join the Tivoloution until the era of the S2.
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Old 03-04-2007, 09:03 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gastrof
You apparently missed the fact I'm talking, not about recordings made off TiVo guide data, but rather manual recordings where I have to put in the channel, length, and the start time.

If the time being displayed by the clock in the machine is off an hour, seems I'll have to make a change to all my manual recording setups. (Please also note that my machines are unsubbed...see my sig.)
Manual recordings are based on local time schedules, that get offset an hour relative to GMT during DST. That means, the only way to have them correct, is for the local time to be set correctly relative to GMT on March 11, and I think tivo is obligated to assure that this occurs for subscribed series one boxes.

However this wouldn't help you, since your boxes are unsubbed. To that I say that Tivo only has an obligation to support a machine, as long as it is subbed to the Tivo service. So I suggest just adding an additional manual recording setup for the offset hour.
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Old 03-04-2007, 11:26 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoHokies!
Are you really expecting to get a software update on an unsubbed machine?

Has that ever happened?

If Stephen said that they are working on it, I'm 100% certain that they actually are and will be doing everything in their power to get the update out before next weekend. No "What exactly is Tivo trying to do? Alienate all Series 1 Owners, kick all Sat users aside? More food for thought." conspiracy theories needed.

Edit: That came across a little shorter than I intended, Gastrof - I really am genuinely curious, I didn't think that unsubbed boxes called into anywhere (making it hard to get the updates). I didn't join the Tivoloution until the era of the S2.
Yes, it did come across a bit short, since I said nothing about "conspiracies"

I simply said this is a mess and I'm not sure what'll happen with my machine next weekend.

Yes, the Series 1 machines DO call in, even the unsubbed ones, to get their clocks reset (to combat "drift").

If TiVo will be leaving the clocks reading the wrong time, and only the older schedule for DST settings stays in place, it's a problem.

There should be a way of manually setting the clock...
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Old 03-05-2007, 05:58 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gastrof
Yes, it did come across a bit short, since I said nothing about "conspiracies"

I simply said this is a mess and I'm not sure what'll happen with my machine next weekend.

Yes, the Series 1 machines DO call in, even the unsubbed ones, to get their clocks reset (to combat "drift").

If TiVo will be leaving the clocks reading the wrong time, and only the older schedule for DST settings stays in place, it's a problem.

There should be a way of manually setting the clock...
I didn't know the unsubbed ones call in, that makes sense to keep the clock on target, so hopefully there is a mechanism for pushing an update to you folks.

The conspiracy theory comments were directed at Worlflord11, the guy I quoted. I should have used the quote tag to make that a little more clear.

I agree that it's a problem that needs to be addressed, but like I said before (and in response to the PM you sent) if Stephen says that they are working on it, then I'd bet a paycheck that they are doing their best to get it resolved before this weekend.
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