Who wants to file a class action suit against Tivo?

[PPC1]

Originally Posted by CTLesq

Its an issue of principle. I didn't buy something refurbed. I bought something new.

But you did not return a "brand new unit" to TiVo; you returned a slightly used TiVo, and one that wasn't functional, at that. If they return a refurb unit that works, they are returning like for like.

I am not going to tell you that you are wrong to want a brand new unit. I think that it would be good customer service for TiVo to do so. There seem to be two types of people-- those that this will drive nuts, and those that could care less as long as the replacement works and appears to be in excellent condition. This is a matter of personal preference. In fairness to TiVo, they have a right to implement their policy with full disclosure. Of course, you have a right to complain, as well as choose to not do business with them.

[samo]

Originally Posted by drowe

From reading this thread, it strikes me that there are two different arguments here, and that may be why neither are coming together. In fact, I think both are correct (for some value of correct).

1. the warranty defines what the company will do

This argument is 100% correct. There it is in black and white.

2. The company should do more given the proximity of the 30 day cut off and the customers high expectation of service

I agree that, while the unit is 16 days past the defined 'swap for new' period, the company should make an exception. I don't believe the OP's request for a new unit is unreasonable in this case. I further believe that the company hurts itself by leaving this customer feeling less than delighted. If there really is so little difference between new and refurb, toss out a new one.

Therefore, I find that this argument is also 100% correct.

It's true that the warranty spells out the company's minimum obligations, but there will always be exceptions. While I don't support the OP's overboard approach here in the forums, I do support the underlying need for exceptional customer service.

Could not agree more. We have younger and older people on this board. Younger generation doesn't even understand a concept of "customer is always right". They don't even know that just 20 years ago this concept was a norm for most businesses. Today just a handful of retailers and manufacturers will bend the rules in customer favor and deliver more than a minimum they obligated to do. That is a sad reality. Maybe this new approach is better for the bottom line, I don't know. I still prefer the old way of doing business and this is why if item is available from Costco I always buy from them. And in my own business I always treat customers the way I want to be treated. I believe that in a long run business that puts customer first wins and makes enough extra profit to offset exceptional customer service cost.

[TAsunder]

I'd be ok with a refurb unit if and only if the hard drive and hard drive cable were new. Hard drives fail over time, it's just the way they work. To be given a refurb means I'm being given a device with a life expectancy lower than it should be.

[CTLesq]

Originally Posted by PPC1

But you did not return a "brand new unit" to TiVo; you returned a slightly used TiVo, and one that wasn't functional, at that. If they return a refurb unit that works, they are returning like for like.

I am not going to tell you that you are wrong to want a brand new unit. I think that it would be good customer service for TiVo to do so. There seem to be two types of people-- those that this will drive nuts, and those that could care less as long as the replacement works and appears to be in excellent condition. This is a matter of personal preference. In fairness to TiVo, they have a right to implement their policy with full disclosure. Of course, you have a right to complain, as well as choose to not do business with them.

A well thought out argument, but I must disagree with your first point. To suggest that I am providing TiVo with anything other than their new TiVo when I return it because it breaks is not really reasonable. But for the fact the TiVo broke within thier agreed upon warranty period I wouldn't be returning it to them.

Now, I specifically buy all electronics on Amex because they provide enhanced warranty protections. But I don't know that you can fairly claim that I am returning anything other than a brand new TiVo back to TiVo. It so happens that within the warranty period something went bad and I want to be restored back to what I was - a happy customer with a new TiVo.

And you are right TiVo has a right to contract away my right to a new TiVo by discolosing that - and by the way, no one has confirmed that is in fact the case, my TiVo box and all the materials are in an inaccessable place otherwise I would check and then I can decide if I want to pay $800 for it.

CTL

[Barryrod]

Originally Posted by PPC1

But you did not return a "brand new unit" to TiVo; you returned a slightly used TiVo, and one that wasn't functional, at that. If they return a refurb unit that works, they are returning like for like.

I am not going to tell you that you are wrong to want a brand new unit. I think that it would be good customer service for TiVo to do so. There seem to be two types of people-- those that this will drive nuts, and those that could care less as long as the replacement works and appears to be in excellent condition. This is a matter of personal preference. In fairness to TiVo, they have a right to implement their policy with full disclosure. Of course, you have a right to complain, as well as choose to not do business with them.

Well...If it was functional, I really don't think he would have been returing the unit now would he. To have something like an S3 only 45 days and if it fail is enough to get me pretty pissed off, but to then be given a refurbished unit would send me over the edge. Due to the way this has played out for the OP, I can tell you I will not be buying an S3 anytime soon.

Many have said that referbished just means it's box was opened. Well, I simply do not believe that. The company I work for replaces defective phones with Manufacturer Refurbished Digital Telephones and our Out Of Box failures for these Refurbished Phones is about 10 to 15%. It sucks and creates much more paperwork for me, but that is the way it is. Our customers have a Maint Contract with us so we replace their sets for any kind of issues regardless of how old the phone is.

[drowe]

Originally Posted by c3

So what should be the cut off date? 47 days, 48 days, etc.?

You're still applying argument 1 logic to argument 2.

Argument 2 suggests that the time frame depends on the situation. Bending the rules is always case by case. We're not amending the warranty, we're stepping outside those terms in order to provide reasonable customer service.

[GoHokies!]

Originally Posted by CTLesq

When I buy something new - that is what I buy. And should that item fail within a reasonable period of time - I expect to be made whole again.

In my world being whole means not being given something that the same seller would sell for less, it means getting back the same new product or my old product which is fixed.

Its an issue of principle. I didn't buy something refurbed. I bought something new.

Can you objectively tell me why I should accept less? Keep in mind - that retailer will sell a refurbed unit for less than a new unit. So why should I pay full price because their product failed on me?

You bought something new - but now it's been used, so why don't you consider getting another Tivo that has also been "used" (probably a whole lot less than yours has, and been "touched up" for lack of a better term) to be making you whole again?

It seems perfectly logical to replaced a used, broken Tivo with a used, not broken Tivo under the warranty.

[aaronwt]

The rules are there for a reason. They don't need to bend them. If it says 45 days it should be 45 days. This is nothing new. I've been buying electronics from mailorder starting in 1982 to online starting in 1995. The warranty is in black and white. What is the problem? This is nothing unusual. Just take the refurb unit and be done with it. Even with the AMEX warranty you'll get a repair or refurb unit. As long as it works correctly and looks right why would anyone care. If you wanted a brand new unit for something being wrong you should have bought it from a store that has an extended warranty with a replacement policy that gives you a new unit, like BestBuy. I think the problem is not doing enough research before your purchase. If you had you wouldn't be complaining.

[smak]

If i buy 4 expensive tires, and sign a piece of paper saying that if one tire blows, they can replace it with the cheapest tire they can find, what right do i have to complain when they do just that.

The op agreed that if the Tivo dies after he purchased it, then Tivo can replace it with a refurb.

It's the op that's going back on his word, not Tivo.

-smak-

[Turtleboy]

Originally Posted by CTLesq

A well thought out argument, but I must disagree with your first point. To suggest that I am providing TiVo with anything other than their new TiVo when I return it because it breaks is not really reasonable. But for the fact the TiVo broke within thier agreed upon warranty period I wouldn't be returning it to them.

Now, I specifically buy all electronics on Amex because they provide enhanced warranty protections. But I don't know that you can fairly claim that I am returning anything other than a brand new TiVo back to TiVo. It so happens that within the warranty period something went bad and I want to be restored back to what I was - a happy customer with a new TiVo.

And you are right TiVo has a right to contract away my right to a new TiVo by discolosing that - and by the way, no one has confirmed that is in fact the case, my TiVo box and all the materials are in an inaccessable place otherwise I would check and then I can decide if I want to pay $800 for it.

CTL

But as a lawyer, don't you get a bit annoyed when someone starts talking about filing a class action law suit (often spelled suite)?

To me, that shows the person complaining is a fool.

[Wangooroo]

Originally Posted by ashu

Wow. Talk about nit-picking. And are you sure they didn't work? Was your network set up perfectly? Sounds odd they'd start working without a software update ... can't possibly be a hardware issue!

Not nit picking at all. And yes my network was set up properly. I know what I'm doing in that regard. The apps just simply did not work. About three weeks after recieving the S3, these apps suddenly began working and there was a Tivo update that occured that appeared to solve the problem.

I spoke with Tivo support about 6 times over that issue and they never had a response. In any case they do work now. But they did not when the S3 shipped.

[Wangooroo]

Originally Posted by CTLesq

I don't know that the car example is a good one. Cars can do many things. A TiVo really only does one - record programs. I also think the price difference between an automobile and a TiVo also makes it a tough analogy.

Its not really one I would make. But, if I bought the Mac I am on now from Apple and I had severe problems with it - I would fully expect them to fix it or replace it with a new one. Replacing my unit from a with a refurbed just isn't the same. Refurbed units exist as a secondary market and are sold at a discount. You play less for them precisely because the seller values them as less.

Why should I pay full retail and accept less?

Edit: "I've often said things that I thought were clever, only to be shown the error of my ways as they were over the line. This time it was your turn."

I never said I was being clever. As I said before I don't defend the statement - it wasn't meant to be defended. It was outrageous for the sake of being outrageous. I have made comments like that before on these forums and bad news for all of you - I will continue to do so.

For what its worth... I laughed my ass off when I read your comment.

[sjcbulldog]

Originally Posted by ashu

Wow. Talk about nit-picking. And are you sure they didn't work? Was your network set up perfectly? Sounds odd they'd start working without a software update ... can't possibly be a hardware issue!

There was an issue with Yahoo understanding the Tivo Series 3 box. This was fixed by changing either something in Tivo's servers or Yahoo's. In either case it was a software fix, but not strictly a software update.

Sjcbulldog

[Wangooroo]

Originally Posted by drowe

From reading this thread, it strikes me that there are two different arguments here, and that may be why neither are coming together. In fact, I think both are correct (for some value of correct).

1. the warranty defines what the company will do

This argument is 100% correct. There it is in black and white.

2. The company should do more given the proximity of the 30 day cut off and the customers high expectation of service

I agree that, while the unit is 16 days past the defined 'swap for new' period, the company should make an exception. I don't believe the OP's request for a new unit is unreasonable in this case. I further believe that the company hurts itself by leaving this customer feeling less than delighted. If there really is so little difference between new and refurb, toss out a new one.

Therefore, I find that this argument is also 100% correct.

It's true that the warranty spells out the company's minimum obligations, but there will always be exceptions. While I don't support the OP's overboard approach here in the forums, I do support the underlying need for exceptional customer service.

Thats all I really want. Exceptional customer service. I am willing to pay a premium for it, and certainly thought I had paid a premium only to find that support from Tivo is less than stellar, and often un-yielding. I should not have to request escalation 6 times to get to speak with a supervisor. I should not need to hangup in frustration after being extremely calm, polite, and willing to hear them out. Often with Tivo I find even with getting escalated (If your support person is even willing to engage a supervisor) I find I still get a person that cannot solve my problem. $800 is a boatload of coin to drop on a DVR. I can afford it, and I chose to spend it. In return for spending premium $ I expect better service from Tivo than I would get from my cable company. Keeping in mind that Tivo is supposed to be the "premier" service and device for the DVR market, and cable is often considered the "lesser" performing option. The fact is... RCN provides far better support and customer service (Their DVR is crap). Tivo has a long way to go to win back my loyalty. I was a loyal Tivo fan for 7 years. Now... I'm quite sour on Tivo and very displeased with how they solve customer service issues.

[CTLesq]

Originally Posted by GoHokies!

You bought something new - but now it's been used, so why don't you consider getting another Tivo that has also been "used" (probably a whole lot less than yours has, and been "touched up" for lack of a better term) to be making you whole again?

It seems perfectly logical to replaced a used, broken Tivo with a used, not broken Tivo under the warranty.

No, not at all. And I think no one else buys that argument either. They may see nothing wrong with getting a refurb, but that is because they see no difference between the two not under your theory.

Because but for a manufacturing defect in my TiVo I would still have my original new TiVo. I wouldn't just send it back for the sake of entertainment.

Originally Posted by TTB

But as a lawyer, don't you get a bit annoyed when someone starts talking about filing a class action law suit (often spelled suite)?

To me, that shows the person complaining is a fool.

Yeah, of course they are. But they are entitled to thier idiotic opinions.

I also think people who discuss Iraq as though they have been there are equally foolish - as someone who has been there. But they are entitled to their foolish opinions.

Originally Posted by Wangaroo

For what its worth... I laughed my ass off when I read your comment.

Good. Hopefully your bringing it up again will upset someone.....on the internet.

What could be more fun?

[bdlucas]

Originally Posted by CTLesq

No, not at all. And I think no one else buys that argument either. They may see nothing wrong with getting a refurb, but that is because they see no difference between the two not under your theory.

Because but for a manufacturing defect in my TiVo I would still have my original new TiVo. I wouldn't just send it back for the sake of entertainment.

But your TiVo is no longer new. You have used it. For example, it would be illegal for you to sell it as new (even if it didn't have a problem). If TiVo were to replace it with a new unit, they would be giving you something better than what you have (even if the unit you have didn't have a problem).

I think it would indeed be exceptional service for TiVo to give you something better than what you would have even if it didn't have a problem. You might be right to want exceptional service (I know I do!), but I'd have to say that replacing it with a refurb is adequate service.

Someone made the argument that a refurb unit might have a disk drive that has more hours on it than the disk drive in your failing unit, and so the replacement might have a reduced life expectancy for the disk drive. I think that point does have some validity. They should give you a replacement with a hard drive that has seen no more wear than the unit being replaced.

[GoHokies!]

Originally Posted by bdlucas

But your TiVo is no longer new. You have used it. For example, it would be illegal for you to sell it as new (even if it didn't have a problem). If TiVo were to replace it with a new unit, they would be giving you something better than what you have (even if the unit you have didn't have a problem).

Guess I'm not the only one that has a little common sense, am I? I must have been absent they passed out the sense of entitlement that some posters in this thread have.

Have a problem with your used Tivo not working? Get a used one in return. The policy is spelled out in black and white. Don't like it? Vote with your wallet and go somewhere else.

[dswallow]

Originally Posted by GoHokies!

Guess I'm not the only one that has a little common sense, am I?

Yes, like some other posters here, you have little common sense.

Is a unit that was returned for paid repair after being in use for 2 or 3 years and given a refurb in exchange, then itself refurbished, an acceptable unit to be used to swap with someone's 32-day-used equipment?

What if the equipment wasn't identical but had gone through a circuit board revision? Functionally equivalent, but perhaps generating more heat because it uses more discrete components thus affecting component life differently (for the worse).

People have reported all sorts of bizarre things in a refurb unit. Some have been very scratched, or have had lots of dust and/or cat hair, for instance. If you took care of your unit but experienced a component failure necessitating a repair/replacement, do you really think it fair to receive some potentially abused piece of equipment in exchange? Do you think you're really getting what you paid for?

Tire manufacturers give a percentage credit against replacements under warranty based on tread wear. There's a lot more fairness in that methodology since it accounts for the use one had of the tires before they failed and that they're being replaced with tires that are brand new. Tire company warranties don't give you a refurbed tire.

Fortunately, even if TiVo's written warranty says something, many states have laws that protect the consumer following some reasonable standards usually providing more rights to the consumer regarding these sorts of issues. That's also why it's oftgen a good idea to file a complaint with your state's Attorneys General office even if you're certain they can't do anything to help you now; what they can and will do is follow trends and perhaps create legislation in the future to cover problems they see becoming more prevalent with time.

[PPC1]

Originally Posted by Turtleboy

But as a lawyer, don't you get a bit annoyed when someone starts talking about filing a class action law suit (often spelled suite)?

Uhhh, no. No lawsuit = no money to the lawyers.

[CTLesq]

Originally Posted by bdlucas

But your TiVo is no longer new. You have used it. For example, it would be illegal for you to sell it as new (even if it didn't have a problem). If TiVo were to replace it with a new unit, they would be giving you something better than what you have (even if the unit you have didn't have a problem).

I think it would indeed be exceptional service for TiVo to give you something better than what you would have even if it didn't have a problem. You might be right to want exceptional service (I know I do!), but I'd have to say that replacing it with a refurb is adequate service.

Someone made the argument that a refurb unit might have a disk drive that has more hours on it than the disk drive in your failing unit, and so the replacement might have a reduced life expectancy for the disk drive. I think that point does have some validity. They should give you a replacement with a hard drive that has seen no more wear than the unit being replaced.

And but for a manufacturing defect - which TiVo promised they would sell me a new working unit, they must now honor that promise and provide me a new unit which is what I purchased - but here is the catch - one that works.

I have no intention of selling my TiVo. But I want what was promised to me - a functional, new TiVo.

TiVo isn't providing me anything other than the warranty protection they sold me when I bought the unit.

CTL

[vstone]

Originally Posted by dianebrat

A great analogy is the cell phone market.
I get a top of the line new shiny phone when I reup my contract (some can be near Tivo costs)

If my phone craps out, dies, and fails, they don't send me a new one, even 14 days in, they don't send a new one.

They send a "refurb" and refub is not "someone has used and abused it" very often.. It's "we can't sell it as new because the seal is opened, and may even have just went through additional testing.

Well, ...

I had a phone crap out at the 11th month of a 12 month warranty. They sent it in for repair. It came back after the warrenty was expired. TYhey said it was fixed, but it had the same problem (grew very hot and drained the battery in about 1/2 hour). After argueing with them, they said they would send it back although they didn't have to. Came back again, same problem. I would gladly have taken a refurb. Instead I left them.

[vstone]

relative to various points brought up:

What should Tivo do about replacement at day 89? at day 364?

Warranty aside, if Tivo stopped manufacturing the S2 and your S2 failed at day 364, should you get a refurb or an S3?

[vstone]

Originally Posted by vstone

Let's use the car analogy! If you return a lemon for a new car, is a car that had a flat tire, but was fixed, acceptable? Is a car that had the CD player replaced OK. We've established that a car with a blown engine wouldn't qualify.

OK, OK, just trying to lighten mood around here. Sorry!

Hoisted on my own petard (sp?)!

The above comment was made entirely in jest. Glad it contributed to the discussion anyway.

[CTLesq]

Originally Posted by vstone

relative to various points brought up:

What should Tivo do about replacement at day 89? at day 364?

Reasonable people will differ. I don't know. I do think there is a material difference between day 89 and day 364. I have a friend who, when discussing a political topic said you know what - only in Sweden would your argument work. To wit, only in a perfect world (such as Sweden) would your argument be valid.

I don't know. But because I can't say for certainty on day X something becomes unreasonable does not prohibit me, in this specific case to hold, what I believe to be a fair opinion.

Originally Posted by vstone

Warranty aside, if Tivo stopped manufacturing the S2 and your S2 failed at day 364, should you get a refurb or an S3?

What if, what if. What if I create a scenario that is unreasonable and then ask you to apply your position to it. One day TiVo will stop producing the S2. And in that case, it will be unfortunate but some customer will be left holding the bag when their unit goes south.

I have an S3 and really enjoy it and am very satisfied with it. But I have this nagging feeling that TiVo may not be around as long as my unit - what do I do then? Well that is a risk I am willing to bear. I hope it doesn't happen but it may.

[Lazlo123]

Originally Posted by vstone

Hoisted on my own petard (sp?)!

The above comment was made entirely in jest. Glad it contributed to the discussion anyway.

But isn't there a chance the replacement car would have still been taken out for a test drive?

[sthor]

Originally Posted by CTLesq

And but for a manufacturing defect - which TiVo promised they would sell me a new working unit, they must now honor that promise and provide me a new unit which is what I purchased - but here is the catch - one that works.

I have no intention of selling my TiVo. But I want what was promised to me - a functional, new TiVo.

TiVo isn't providing me anything other than the warranty protection they sold me when I bought the unit.

CTL

You should have negotiated that before you accepted the contract with Tivo if that is what you expected.

Why should everyone else that buys a TIVO pay to subsidize those that claim more than they bargained for?

[CTLesq]

Originally Posted by sthor

You should have negotiated that before you accepted the contract with Tivo if that is what you expected.

Why should everyone else that buys a TIVO pay to subsidize those that claim more than they bargained for?

Again people reference that I agreed to a refurbed unit should mine go bad. No one has yet to actually tell me where this is in print or on a website somewhere.

I have previously acknowledged that TiVo has the right under contract to compell me to accept a refurb if that is their stated policy. Several pages later no one has provided that as definitive.

And, failing that, I can in many instances rely on state law or the protections afforded to me with my AmEx warranty protection. So I have negotiated that in advance either by law or opperation of my credit card rules.

[hookbill]

Originally Posted by CTLesq

Again people reference that I agreed to a refurbed unit should mine go bad. No one has yet to actually tell me where this is in print or on a website somewhere.

I have previously acknowledged that TiVo has the right under contract to compell me to accept a refurb if that is their stated policy. Several pages later no one has provided that as definitive.

And, failing that, I can in many instances rely on state law or the protections afforded to me with my AmEx warranty protection. So I have negotiated that in advance either by law or opperation of my credit card rules.

I can't say this is definitive. However it does say: TiVo has its digital video recorders ("DVRs") manufactured from parts and components that are new or equivalent to new in accordance with industry-standard practices.

Located here.

[TexasAg]

Originally Posted by CTLesq

Again people reference that I agreed to a refurbed unit should mine go bad. No one has yet to actually tell me where this is in print or on a website somewhere.

Originally Posted by hookbill

I can't say this is definitive. However it does say: TiVo has its digital video recorders ("DVRs") manufactured from parts and components that are new or equivalent to new in accordance with industry-standard practices.

Located here.

Actually, that link is for the DVR warranty and expressly says:

"For 90 days from the purchase date, the DVR will be replaced with a repaired, renewed or comparable product (whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo) if it becomes defective or inoperative. This exchange is done without charge to you for parts and labor (except applicable taxes, if any). You will be responsible for the cost of shipping. From 90 days to 1 year from the date of purchase, your DVR will be replaced with a repaired, renewed, or comparable product (whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo) if it becomes defective or inoperative. You will be responsible for all labor and shipping costs (except for applicable taxes, if any).

The exact same terms are on page 127 of the manual CTLesq received with the S3.

I hate lawyers who think they're smarter than they really are.

[hookbill]

Originally Posted by TexasAg

Actually, that link is for the DVR warranty and expressly says:

"For 90 days from the purchase date, the DVR will be replaced with a repaired, renewed or comparable product (whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo) if it becomes defective or inoperative. This exchange is done without charge to you for parts and labor (except applicable taxes, if any). You will be responsible for the cost of shipping. From 90 days to 1 year from the date of purchase, your DVR will be replaced with a repaired, renewed, or comparable product (whichever is deemed necessary by TiVo) if it becomes defective or inoperative. You will be responsible for all labor and shipping costs (except for applicable taxes, if any).

The exact same terms are on page 127 of the manual CTLesq received with the S3.

I hate lawyers who think they're smarter than they really are.

I hope your not referring to me, I'm not an attorney. I don't even play one on television. But thank you for finding an observing what my lazy eyes apparently missed.