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Old 02-23-2016, 06:21 PM   #1
alleybj
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Reliable transfer of .TS files?

Has anyone found a reliable means to transfer Tivo files from Tivo to a pc without dropping video frames? I can't seem to find one. I never had any problems with non.TS files. Tivo Desktop and kmttg produce files that are inferior to what's on the Tivo. Thanks

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Old 02-23-2016, 06:28 PM   #2
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pyTiVo?

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Old 02-23-2016, 06:32 PM   #3
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pyTiVo?
Does it transfer from Tivo to pc? I thought it only went the other direction.

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Old 02-23-2016, 07:24 PM   #4
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Does it transfer from TiVo to pc?
Sorry, I mis-read your question. After realizing you want to pull the .ts file from TiVo, I tried transferring a .ts file from my Premiere XL4 to a Windows PC using a lesser-known program called TiVoPlayList.

http://www.tvreviewer.com/tivoplaylist/

After scanning through the video to check for any problems, the show seemed to look and sound fine. But I also downloaded the same file using kmttg and found the size and quality to be identical. I'm not a hardcore videophile so maybe I'm just not seeing the dropped video frames you described. Are they obvious and constant or subtle and random?

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Old 02-23-2016, 07:37 PM   #5
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All of the available transfer utilities receive the same data from a TiVo when transferring, in either .PS or .TS format. If you're not getting everything(ie dropped frames), it's happening further up the pipeline than the transfer utility(inside the TiVo during the re-muxing process, or from the cable company). They just open an http connection and accept whatever data TiVo sends.

If there are very small glitches in the video signal coming from your cable co, I *believe* the ps format may be innately more tolerant of these issues than ts. Someone with more knowledge of video coding would have to confirm and/or expand on that though, it's beyond my ability of expertise.

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Old 02-23-2016, 07:54 PM   #6
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All of the available transfer utilities receive the same data from a TiVo when transferring, in either .PS or .TS format. If you're not getting everything(ie dropped frames), it's happening further up the pipeline than the transfer utility(inside the TiVo during the re-muxing process, or from the cable company). They just open an http connection and accept whatever data TiVo sends.

If there are very small glitches in the video signal coming from your cable co, I *believe* the ps format may be innately more tolerant of these issues than ts. Someone with more knowledge of video coding would have to confirm and/or expand on that though, it's beyond my ability of expertise.
Interesting. So, you think glitches in the video stream that aren't visible when watching on the Tivo are picked up and made visible in the transport stream?

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Old 02-23-2016, 08:00 PM   #7
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All of the available transfer utilities receive the same data from a TiVo when transferring, in either .PS or .TS format. If you're not getting everything(ie dropped frames), it's happening further up the pipeline than the transfer utility(inside the TiVo during the re-muxing process, or from the cable company). They just open an http connection and accept whatever data TiVo sends.

If there are very small glitches in the video signal coming from your cable co, I *believe* the ps format may be innately more tolerant of these issues than ts. Someone with more knowledge of video coding would have to confirm and/or expand on that though, it's beyond my ability of expertise.
You say that they receive the same data, but I notice different glitches with different programs. For example, using Tivo Desktop, there's a skipped frame at 30 minutes but with kmttg not until the one hour mark, with neither frame skipped on the Tivo. Thanks

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Old 02-23-2016, 09:50 PM   #8
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Does [pyTivo] transfer from Tivo to pc? I thought it only went the other direction.
It does, but, it won't give different results.

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You say that they receive the same data, but I notice different glitches with different programs.
Apart from the difference between PS and TS transfers, there should be no other differences.

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Old 02-24-2016, 09:28 AM   #9
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Apart from the difference between PS and TS transfers, there should be no other differences.
And yet it does produce different results. Any thoughts as to why? thanks

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Old 03-05-2016, 02:30 PM   #10
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And yet it does produce different results. Any thoughts as to why? thanks
I think the main reason why is because the TS files require less processing by the Tivo box since it's basically sending the original broadcast to the PC while the PS files are often remuxed by the Tivo and thus any errors in the stream are fixed or taken care of. TS streams basically have all the error correction bits and are thus more robust when being sent to a unit while PS streams don't have all the error correction bits and are not used for OTA or QAM broadcasts as a result. What's nice with using the TS option is that your recording is much less likely to cut off in the middle or anywhere in the stream when it's transferring to your PC which leaves you with an incomplete recording. Whereas the PS stream will sometimes do that. I often find certain times when it's more likely to affect the majority of all recordings I've done to when it only happens once every two months. Usually in the summer is when I've noticed it to happen much more frequently while in other parts of the year it rarely occurs. But with those recordings that don't fully transfer over PS, they will transfer completely with TS, and I don't recall the last time a situation where the TS stream wouldn't completely transfer. However, with the TS stream I sometimes find that in parts of a recording there may be glitches in the stream that aren't present at all in the PS stream, and these glitches occur at the exact same location if I try to transfer the recording again. But I have found that sometimes say if I used Tivo Desktop to transfer a recording in TS format and I transfer the same recording in kmttg in TS format then the glitch won't be there at all. Then there's times when no program seems to make a difference. So best practice is to use PS format when transferring recordings even if it's slower you will not run the chance of having glitches in your recordings that weren't present in the original recording. However, if a recording cannot transfer completely then use the TS format and try kmttg, Tivo Desktop, and Tivo Web Server(even though kmttg uses this method too) and see if there is a difference with each case.

In terms of finding a more reliable method of transferring TS files, I have found that wired or wireless doesn't really make a difference since TCP would handle any errors made across the network. But as I stated above some programs may transfer the recording better than others but it's not always the case.

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Old 03-05-2016, 02:33 PM   #11
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Which Tivo model are you using by the way just out of curiosity.

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Old 03-08-2016, 03:24 PM   #12
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Which Tivo model are you using by the way just out of curiosity.
I actually have three, RoamioPro, Premiere Elite XL, and a regular Premier. They all produce the same results.

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Old 03-09-2016, 02:59 PM   #13
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And yet it does produce different results. Any thoughts as to why? thanks
What tool you use to download doesn't produce different results. Tivo does all the work. No different then saying who pushes the button to turn on a TV makes a difference.

The difference is what took you use to decrypt. Tivo desktop uses the direct show filter. KMTTG has an option to use direct show filter, or use videoredo to decrypt which is about the same. BT default KMTTG uses tivolibre.

A fair comparison requires using the same decryption tool

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Old 03-12-2016, 05:54 PM   #14
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I actually have three, RoamioPro, Premiere Elite XL, and a regular Premier. They all produce the same results.
Add my Roamio base model to the list. Try downloading the same recording from the TiVo a few times and you'll most likely get glitches in different parts of each download.

Here's a post I have on the suject at the VideoRedo support forum http://www.videoredo.net/msgBoard/sh...413#post122413

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Old 03-13-2016, 12:15 PM   #15
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Add my Roamio base model to the list. Try downloading the same recording from the TiVo a few times and you'll most likely get glitches in different parts of each download.

Here's a post I have on the suject at the VideoRedo support forum http://www.videoredo.net/msgBoard/sh...413#post122413
Do you notice the some of the glitches occur at the same locations in the downloaded file or does that never happen since for me it always seems to be the same glitches.

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Old 03-14-2016, 06:00 PM   #16
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Are we comparing apples to apples? Are your recordings broadcast H.264 video w/AC3 audio? Are you downloading them in TS format? What are you using to download them?
Any glitch in the original recording may either transfer or prevent transfer.
A TS stream has to be intact in order to encapsulate the payload.
Glitch free recordings on the TiVo sometimes come over via TS ttg with their own TiVo made glitches (loss of sync and/or continuity in the ts stream delivered). I have one example recording left on my TiVo that I had to download 11 times to get a perfect transfer. In addition to discontinuities in the TS stream it would lose TS sync in one or more of 5 well defined areas of the TS stream. The last (11th) ttg TS download was sans glitches.
This has been my experience with my Roamio base unit and YMMV.

P.S. TiVo's official response is that TiVo Desktop is no longer available or supported. Doesn't work on the new Bolt, so it's antiquated tech that's been replaced by the new technology we all asked for called streaming! (You voted for it)


Last edited by wuzznuubi; 03-14-2016 at 06:43 PM. Reason: P.S.
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Old 03-15-2016, 12:47 PM   #17
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Are we comparing apples to apples? Are your recordings broadcast H.264 video w/AC3 audio? Are you downloading them in TS format? What are you using to download them?
Any glitch in the original recording may either transfer or prevent transfer.
A TS stream has to be intact in order to encapsulate the payload.
Glitch free recordings on the TiVo sometimes come over via TS ttg with their own TiVo made glitches (loss of sync and/or continuity in the ts stream delivered). I have one example recording left on my TiVo that I had to download 11 times to get a perfect transfer. In addition to discontinuities in the TS stream it would lose TS sync in one or more of 5 well defined areas of the TS stream. The last (11th) ttg TS download was sans glitches.
This has been my experience with my Roamio base unit and YMMV.

P.S. TiVo's official response is that TiVo Desktop is no longer available or supported. Doesn't work on the new Bolt, so it's antiquated tech that's been replaced by the new technology we all asked for called streaming! (You voted for it)
Are you determining whether there are any glitches using VideoRedo's QuickStream fix to see if there were any frames removed or are you using another possibly faster method? Also what setup on the tivo side do you use that you found ultimately reduces the glitches the most(i.e. not having any of the channels tuned to a working channels, having device on standby)?

I've read that Tivo Desktop does still work with the Bolt but that they don't officially support it so good luck talking to CSR about it (which usually doesn't make a difference anyway)

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Old 03-15-2016, 08:50 PM   #18
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Are you determining whether there are any glitches using VideoRedo's QuickStream fix to see if there were any frames removed or are you using another possibly faster method?
Loading the unencrypted TiVo files in a hex editor and examining the transport stream looking for loss of sync. Easiest after setting the hex editor line length to a ts packet size of 188 bytes.

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Also what setup on the tivo side do you use that you found ultimately reduces the glitches the most(i.e. not having any of the channels tuned to a working channels, having device on standby)?
Haven't determined anything reliable, I just keep downloading a program until I get a clean transport stream with no sync loss.

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Old 03-15-2016, 10:46 PM   #19
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Haven't determined anything reliable, I just keep downloading a program until I get a clean transport stream with no sync loss.
I know on your VideoRedo posts that you said you tried so many different things that you don't really know what resulted in the Tivo file transferring without any glitches, but have you tried transferring the same recording multiple times with the same configuration and it produces different results(i.e. one the recording transfers glitch-free while another time it doesn't)?

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Old 03-16-2016, 07:03 PM   #20
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I know on your VideoRedo posts that you said you tried so many different things that you don't really know what resulted in the Tivo file transferring without any glitches, but have you tried transferring the same recording multiple times with the same configuration and it produces different results(i.e. one the recording transfers glitch-free while another time it doesn't)?
That's my next experiment. I have a one hour H.264 recording scheduled tonight. I'm going to download it a couple minutes after it's done recording, then wait until morning and download it again, then again tomorrow afternoon, etc. without messing with anything like delete/recover, standby, changing all channels, etc. I find if you look at the std (console) output of tivolibre using the -d debug flag it will tell you where it finds/recovers the TS packet sync loss which makes it easier to go to that location in a hex editor while examining the encrypted TiVo file you downloaded. If the TS sync loss in the encrypted TiVo files occur in different locations in different downloads of the same program from the TiVo, that pretty much points to the TiVo doing it as far as I'm concerned.

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Old 03-17-2016, 07:06 PM   #21
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That's my next experiment. I have a one hour H.264 recording scheduled tonight. I'm going to download it a couple minutes after it's done recording, then wait until morning and download it again, then again tomorrow afternoon, etc. without messing with anything like delete/recover, standby, changing all channels, etc. I find if you look at the std (console) output of tivolibre using the -d debug flag it will tell you where it finds/recovers the TS packet sync loss which makes it easier to go to that location in a hex editor while examining the encrypted TiVo file you downloaded. If the TS sync loss in the encrypted TiVo files occur in different locations in different downloads of the same program from the TiVo, that pretty much points to the TiVo doing it as far as I'm concerned.
This sounds like an interesting experiment. I'm eager to hear what the outcome will be.

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Old 03-17-2016, 07:45 PM   #22
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That's my next experiment. I have a one hour H.264 recording scheduled tonight. I'm going to download it a couple minutes after it's done recording, then wait until morning and download it again, then again tomorrow afternoon, etc. without messing with anything like delete/recover, standby, changing all channels, etc. I find if you look at the std (console) output of tivolibre using the -d debug flag it will tell you where it finds/recovers the TS packet sync loss which makes it easier to go to that location in a hex editor while examining the encrypted TiVo file you downloaded. If the TS sync loss in the encrypted TiVo files occur in different locations in different downloads of the same program from the TiVo, that pretty much points to the TiVo doing it as far as I'm concerned.
As far as I'm concerned the Tivo is creating TS Sync loss at different points in the encrypted TS streams it delivers when sending those in request for a TS download of a program on the TiVo. Only the TiVo engineers know why (if they're still around). Different areas (I'll call TS zones) of the same program downloaded from the TiVo via TS ttg show up with TS packet loss due to TS sync lost in the different unencrypted TS TiVo downloads. Each of the downloads I made experienced TS sync loss at specific byte offsets in the TS stream I'm calling TS zones. Some of these downloads drop packets in zone 1, some in zone 2, some in zone 3, some in zone 1 & 2, 1 & 3, 1, 2 & 3, etc.

Latest program I downloaded from my TiVo, 18 times, represented all combinations of the three distinct TS zones of TS packet loss and one that was error free.

For me, case is closed after experimenting with 18 downloads of the same recorded program. Oh, wait, should I try again with the 19th download?

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Old 03-18-2016, 01:11 AM   #23
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As far as I'm concerned the Tivo is creating TS Sync loss at different points in the encrypted TS streams it delivers when sending those in request for a TS download of a program on the TiVo. Only the TiVo engineers know why (if they're still around). Different areas (I'll call TS zones) of the same program downloaded from the TiVo via TS ttg show up with TS packet loss due to TS sync lost in the different unencrypted TS TiVo downloads. Each of the downloads I made experienced TS sync loss at specific byte offsets in the TS stream I'm calling TS zones. Some of these downloads drop packets in zone 1, some in zone 2, some in zone 3, some in zone 1 & 2, 1 & 3, 1, 2 & 3, etc.

Latest program I downloaded from my TiVo, 18 times, represented all combinations of the three distinct TS zones of TS packet loss and one that was error free.

For me, case is closed after experimenting with 18 downloads of the same recorded program. Oh, wait, should I try again with the 19th download?
Interesting analysis. It seems perhaps that a sync loss-free download is something the user has very little control over. I know that since your provider seems to only use H.264 ts streams that you would not know the answer, but for the ps streams that quit transferring early is it possible that sync loss would always occur at those points where a ps transfer cuts off early in the ts transfer of the same recording or can it possible that no sync loss would occur at those ps stream cutoff points?

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Old 03-18-2016, 08:52 PM   #24
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Just finished downloading another H.264 recording. Took 21 downloads before I got a glitch free TS. The first 20 downloads had TS Sync loss in three different areas of the file, some downloads in any one of the areas, some in two of the three areas and others in all three areas. Only the 21st download had no TS Sync loss. Not sure about MPEG2 TS experiencing Sync loss as I only have one station I record that's still MPEG2 and I use PS downloads to avoid this issue.

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Old 03-20-2016, 11:02 PM   #25
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Just finished downloading another H.264 recording. Took 21 downloads before I got a glitch free TS. The first 20 downloads had TS Sync loss in three different areas of the file, some downloads in any one of the areas, some in two of the three areas and others in all three areas. Only the 21st download had no TS Sync loss. Not sure about MPEG2 TS experiencing Sync loss as I only have one station I record that's still MPEG2 and I use PS downloads to avoid this issue.
Luckily for me my provider still broadcasts in MPEG2 so I usually go the PS route, but I still occasionally get those incomplete downloads at which point I have to go the TS route to download the entire recording. I'll have to try to develop a program that will download a recording in TS and check for sync loss in the tivolibre output, and continue to download the same recording again until there are no issues. I may be going over my head with this. Let's hope not.

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Old 03-30-2016, 01:00 AM   #26
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Just finished downloading another H.264 recording. Took 21 downloads before I got a glitch free TS. The first 20 downloads had TS Sync loss in three different areas of the file, some downloads in any one of the areas, some in two of the three areas and others in all three areas. Only the 21st download had no TS Sync loss. Not sure about MPEG2 TS experiencing Sync loss as I only have one station I record that's still MPEG2 and I use PS downloads to avoid this issue.
Problem appears to be fixed (crossing fingers). Not sure which one of the suggestions solved it, but don't care at this point. Friend suggested that I remove my Roamio hard drive and run it through SpinRite level two diagnostics and put it back which I did. Also that I shouldn't be recording/transferring/permanently deleting recordings so often and to just delete the recordings after successful recording/transfer and leave them on the TiVo for it to delete them as that would ensure the recordings were spread out on the hard drive and then would not keep writing to the same area on the HDD since little is known about the WD AV drives used and how the drive and the TiVo uses error correction/recovery (quoting her;-).

Happy to say I've had 23 straight H.264 recordings transferred as TS without a single sync loss since that time. I think she may have a point.

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Old 03-30-2016, 01:28 AM   #27
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Problem appears to be fixed (crossing fingers). Not sure which one of the suggestions solved it, but don't care at this point. Friend suggested that I remove my Roamio hard drive and run it through SpinRite level two diagnostics and put it back which I did. Also that I shouldn't be recording/transferring/permanently deleting recordings so often and to just delete the recordings after successful recording/transfer and leave them on the TiVo for it to delete them as that would ensure the recordings were spread out on the hard drive and then would not keep writing to the same area on the HDD since little is known about the WD AV drives used and how the drive and the TiVo uses error correction/recovery (quoting her;-).

Happy to say I've had 23 straight H.264 recordings transferred as TS without a single sync loss since that time. I think she may have a point.
So basically after running SpinRite on the drive, I should avoid permanently deleting recordings after transferring them? Basically the problem isn't transferring them so often but rather the fact that you were permanently deleting them after transferring them if I have interpreted that correctly. I never permanently delete recordings after transferring them so maybe I just need to run SpinRite to perhaps have the issue go away on my end?

Also how long would you say it would take a 2tb drive to run through SpinRite given how long it took to run what I presume is a 3tb WD AV drive in your Roamio?

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Old 03-30-2016, 11:06 AM   #28
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I find if you look at the std (console) output of tivolibre using the -d debug flag it will tell you where it finds/recovers the TS packet sync loss which makes it easier to go to that location in a hex editor while examining the encrypted TiVo file you downloaded.
This block from the console would be an example of tivolibre indicating sync loss from a missing TS packet header?
Code:
02:03:19.753 [main] WARN  c.s.tivolibre.TivoDecoder - Invalid TS packet header for packet 10428684
02:03:19.753 [main] WARN  c.s.tivolibre.TivoDecoder - TransportStream appears to be corrupt, cannot find sync bytes
02:03:19.763 [main] DEBUG c.s.tivolibre.TivoDecoder - Starting value for resumeDecryptionAtByte: 0x74dca738
02:03:19.773 [main] DEBUG c.s.tivolibre.TivoDecoder - Resume decryption at: 0x75800000
02:03:19.903 [main] INFO  c.s.tivolibre.TivoDecoder - Re-synched at packet 10428685 (byte 0x74dca738)

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Old 03-30-2016, 09:19 PM   #29
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Also how long would you say it would take a 2tb drive to run through SpinRite given how long it took to run what I presume is a 3tb WD AV drive in your Roamio?
Stock 500GB WD AV drive in my four tuner Roamio. Not sure how long it took as I started the SpinRite run late at night when I had no recordings scheduled and it was finished by morning. I'd guess no more than 8 hours, probably less. You could always contact their support and ask them.

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Old 03-30-2016, 09:25 PM   #30
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This block from the console would be an example of tivolibre indicating sync loss from a missing TS packet header?
Code:
02:03:19.753 [main] WARN  c.s.tivolibre.TivoDecoder - Invalid TS packet header for packet 10428684
02:03:19.753 [main] WARN  c.s.tivolibre.TivoDecoder - TransportStream appears to be corrupt, cannot find sync bytes
02:03:19.763 [main] DEBUG c.s.tivolibre.TivoDecoder - Starting value for resumeDecryptionAtByte: 0x74dca738
02:03:19.773 [main] DEBUG c.s.tivolibre.TivoDecoder - Resume decryption at: 0x75800000
02:03:19.903 [main] INFO  c.s.tivolibre.TivoDecoder - Re-synched at packet 10428685 (byte 0x74dca738)
Yes. The byte value given above for "Re-synched at packet 10428685 (byte 0x74dca738)" is the byte offest within the Transport Stream (exclusive of the tivo header and three chunks) that the lost sync was re-established.
Once you get a download where tivolibre shows no sync loss you have a good download with no lost packets.

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