TiVo Community
TiVo Community
TiVo Community
Go Back   TiVo Community > Main TiVo Forums > TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs
TiVo Community
Reply
Forum Jump
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-26-2006, 01:44 PM   #91
btwyx
Substantive Member
 
btwyx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 11,247
Cable cards are the right technical solution to this problem. User QAM mapping is a bad solution.

As I understand the regulations, and someone should correct me if I'm wrong:

1. Cable cards are mandated access method for accessing digital cable.

2. They are supposed to be available at nominal cost.

3. Access too basic cable is the only regulated part of cable.

4. The HD broadcast channels are part of basic cable (whic is why they're clear).

Therefore: The regulations say you're supposed to be able to get cable cards (the correct technical solution) to access clear QAM channels at nominal cost.

If you are not able to get a cable card to access clear QAM channels at nominal cost, you should be complaining the to relevant regulatory authority. The relevant authority is the franchising authority, contact information for which should be printed on your bill. The franchising authority only has authority over access to basic cable, but that is exactly what this problem is.

So has anyone here who's complaining that cable card access to basic cable is too expensive complained to the relevant authority? If not why are you belly aching about TiVo when you can even used the avenues which are open to you?

When I first got the S3 Comcast were basically charging $6.95 for a cable card as an "extra digtial outlet" fee. I was ready to start complaining to my franchising authority about this excessive fee for the card, I was going to frame it as a complaint about access to basic cable which would put it under the franchising authority's remit.

So have you complained?
__________________
Premier Elite, Lifetime
Premier XL, Lifetime
Premier Lifetime (at Mom's)
btwyx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2006, 01:58 PM   #92
TydalForce
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 1,013
There's another scenario -- people who don't directly pay for their cable. Various apartment complexes and other housing arrangements provide residents with cable. That's covered through rental expenses, etc. So people have cable provided to them -- they're not stealing it -- but don't directly pay for it.

How are these folks supposed to get CableCards?
TydalForce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2006, 01:58 PM   #93
Adam1115
20,000!!!
 
Adam1115's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Denver ish
Posts: 23,679
Quote:
Originally Posted by btwyx
I don't think its arrogance, I wouldn't fancy the support headaches this would involve. As I've said many times, the problem's already been solved. Cable cards are the right solution for this.
Cable cards aren't the right solution if:

1) Cable Company doesn't support cable cards. (There are many that don't, only MAJOR cable companies have to comply. There are also colleges, MDU implementations that don't either. They may use QAM.)

2) Some dink cable companies are making people buy cablecards for $100-$150 EACH. $300 up front hardly seems like the right solution to be able to record your in the clear local channels.., which btw, most QAM tuners and TV's can handle just fine, including guide data.) Even if they don't, why is it reasonable for me to have to pay $10/mo for cablecards, plus a truck roll to get my locals that I already pay for?? (And receive, and watch, just can't record!!)

3) Other cable companies want you to have FULL EXTENDED BASIC, PLUS Digital Cable to even qualify to PAY FOR a cablecard. All to watch your in the clear QAM locals that you can already watch on your QAM capable TV?? That's ridiculous.

And I don't think we're talking about "USER MAPPING" of qam channels, I think we're talking about TiVo allowing a QAM channel as part of it's line up. A $189 TV tuner STB doesn't have this problem, why does the $799 TiVo?
__________________
-----------------------------
Check out my (mostly) IT blog!

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Adam1115 : 11-26-2006 at 02:05 PM.
Adam1115 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2006, 02:37 PM   #94
btwyx
Substantive Member
 
btwyx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 11,247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam1115
Cable cards aren't the right solution if:

1) Cable Company doesn't support cable cards.
That sounds like a line up issue. If the compay is publishing the channel information. I thought the problem under discussion was when this information is not published. Is anyone having this problem?
Quote:
2) Some dink cable companies are making people buy cablecards for $100-$150 EACH. $300 up front
That would be bad, is anyone having this problem? I dont know how this lines up with the regulations that cable cards should be available at nominal cost. That's be worth exploring.

It'd help if TiVo could impliment assymetric tuners on the S3, at least then you'd only need one card, which would halve the problem.
Quote:
3) Other cable companies want you to have FULL EXTENDED BASIC, PLUS Digital Cable to even qualify to PAY FOR a cablecard.
See my reply 2 before your question.
__________________
Premier Elite, Lifetime
Premier XL, Lifetime
Premier Lifetime (at Mom's)
btwyx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2006, 06:08 PM   #95
Adam1115
20,000!!!
 
Adam1115's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Denver ish
Posts: 23,679
Quote:
Originally Posted by btwyx
That sounds like a line up issue. If the compay is publishing the channel information. I thought the problem under discussion was when this information is not published. Is anyone having this problem?That would be bad, is anyone having this problem? I dont know how this lines up with the regulations that cable cards should be available at nominal cost. That's be worth exploring.

It'd help if TiVo could impliment assymetric tuners on the S3, at least then you'd only need one card, which would halve the problem.See my reply 2 before your question.
I agree, we are discussing a line up problem, cable company's offer QAM but to people who don't have cable cards it can't be recorded because there is no guide information.

Is anyone having what problem? Small cable companies aren't required to provide cable cards and the ones that do are charging an arm and a leg. What is a nominal cost? $150 might be to a small cable co that has to buy them, and pull half their crew off for a day to figure out how to make them work..

Anyway, yes people are having this problem, Here's one:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=328433

I wonder if this guys college is going to provide cablecards??

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=328513
__________________
-----------------------------
Check out my (mostly) IT blog!

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Adam1115 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2006, 07:31 PM   #96
Rocko62580
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by btwyx
Cable cards are the right technical solution to this problem. User QAM mapping is a bad solution.

As I understand the regulations, and someone should correct me if I'm wrong:

1. Cable cards are mandated access method for accessing digital cable.

2. They are supposed to be available at nominal cost.

3. Access too basic cable is the only regulated part of cable.

4. The HD broadcast channels are part of basic cable (whic is why they're clear).

Therefore: The regulations say you're supposed to be able to get cable cards (the correct technical solution) to access clear QAM channels at nominal cost.

If you are not able to get a cable card to access clear QAM channels at nominal cost, you should be complaining the to relevant regulatory authority. The relevant authority is the franchising authority, contact information for which should be printed on your bill. The franchising authority only has authority over access to basic cable, but that is exactly what this problem is.

So has anyone here who's complaining that cable card access to basic cable is too expensive complained to the relevant authority? If not why are you belly aching about TiVo when you can even used the avenues which are open to you?

When I first got the S3 Comcast were basically charging $6.95 for a cable card as an "extra digtial outlet" fee. I was ready to start complaining to my franchising authority about this excessive fee for the card, I was going to frame it as a complaint about access to basic cable which would put it under the franchising authority's remit.

So have you complained?
Ok, I will take you up on this. How do I phrase this to the commuity? I am sure they have no idea what QAM signals even are!
Rocko62580 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2006, 07:33 PM   #97
btwyx
Substantive Member
 
btwyx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 11,247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko62580
Ok, I will take you up on this. How do I phrase this to the commuity? I am sure they have no idea what QAM signals even are!
Phrase what to which comunity?
__________________
Premier Elite, Lifetime
Premier XL, Lifetime
Premier Lifetime (at Mom's)
btwyx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2006, 07:38 PM   #98
Rocko62580
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by btwyx
Phrase what to which comunity?
MY Franchise Authority, like you just suggested....
Rocko62580 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2006, 08:00 PM   #99
btwyx
Substantive Member
 
btwyx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 11,247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko62580
MY Franchise Authority, like you just suggested....
What problem do you have? They want too much for the card? they insist you have programming you dont want? what?
__________________
Premier Elite, Lifetime
Premier XL, Lifetime
Premier Lifetime (at Mom's)
btwyx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2006, 08:09 PM   #100
Rocko62580
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by btwyx
What problem do you have? They want too much for the card? they insist you have programming you dont want? what?
Called my cable company today and asked for the cable cards. You need to subscribe to full cable (I only get basic) plus digital plus HD service. That would be an extra 65.99 a month. So how would I get assistance from the Franchise Authority as you had suggested.
Rocko62580 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2006, 08:32 PM   #101
btwyx
Substantive Member
 
btwyx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 11,247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko62580
Called my cable company today and asked for the cable cards. You need to subscribe to full cable (I only get basic) plus digital plus HD service. That would be an extra 65.99 a month. So how would I get assistance from the Franchise Authority as you had suggested.
Find their address on your bill and write a letter, I'd suggest something like:

From: Rocko62580
100 Subscriber St
Someplace, XX 00001

To: Cable Franchising Authority
Town Hall
Someplace, XX 00000

Dear Sirs,

The FCC website tells me that you, the cable franchising authority for this community, is responsible for rates and enforcing FCC regulations with respect to basic cable access. I am having a problem with <cable co> not allowing me access to basic cable channels at the set basic cable rate.

Specifically Channel X WXXX-DT is carried by <cable co> as part of basic cable. I understand that FCC regulations mandate that the digital equivalent of the channels carried on basic cable also be part of basic cable. WXXX is carrided on basic cable, WXXX-DT is also carried.

However, to access this channel an access device "cable card" is required to be supplied by <cable co>. I understand that the FCC mandates that such devices be available to basic cable subscribers at nominal cost. <cable co> will not supply such a device to me, they insist that I subscribe to other tiers of cable service before I can have access to the device to properly receive basic cable.

In effect <cable co> wants to charge me an extra $65.99 for access to a device which the FCC mandates be available at nominal cost.

Please could you investigate this situation so that I may be able to access the basic cable channels that I should be able to.

Yours Sincerely

Rocko62580
__________________
Premier Elite, Lifetime
Premier XL, Lifetime
Premier Lifetime (at Mom's)
btwyx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2006, 08:34 PM   #102
Rocko62580
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 46
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by btwyx
Find their address on your bill and write a letter, I'd suggest something like:

From: Rocko62580
100 Subscriber St
Someplace, XX 00001

To: Cable Franchising Authority
Town Hall
Someplace, XX 00000

Dear Sirs,

The FCC website tells me that you, the cable franchising authority for this community, is responsible for rates and enforcing FCC regulations with respect to basic cable access. I am having a problem with <cable co> not allowing me access to basic cable channels at the set basic cable rate.

Specifically Channel X WXXX-DT is carried by <cable co> as part of basic cable. I understand that FCC regulations mandate that the digital equivalent of the channels carried on basic cable also be part of basic cable. WXXX is carrided on basic cable, WXXX-DT is also carried.

However, to access this channel an access device "cable card" is required to be supplied by <cable co>. I understand that the FCC mandates that such devices be available to basic cable subscribers at nominal cost. <cable co> will not supply such a device to me, they insist that I subscribe to other tiers of cable service before I can have access to the device to properly receive basic cable.

In effect <cable co> wants to charge me an extra $65.99 for access to a device which the FCC mandates be available at nominal cost.

Please could you investigate this situation so that I may be able to access the basic cable channels that I should be able to.

Yours Sincerely

Rocko62580
WOW! Thanks! Did you just write that? If so that was pretty good!
Rocko62580 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2006, 08:52 PM   #103
btwyx
Substantive Member
 
btwyx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 11,247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko62580
WOW! Thanks! Did you just write that? If so that was pretty good!
Yup, I just wrote that. Its the sort of thing which was knocking around in my head when I thought I might have to write to my franchising authority.
__________________
Premier Elite, Lifetime
Premier XL, Lifetime
Premier Lifetime (at Mom's)
btwyx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2006, 09:59 PM   #104
Adam1115
20,000!!!
 
Adam1115's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Denver ish
Posts: 23,679
Quote:
Originally Posted by btwyx
Specifically Channel X WXXX-DT is carried by <cable co> as part of basic cable. I understand that FCC regulations mandate that the digital equivalent of the channels carried on basic cable also be part of basic cable. WXXX is carrided on basic cable, WXXX-DT is also carried.

However, to access this channel an access device "cable card" is required to be supplied by <cable co>. I understand that the FCC mandates that such devices be available to basic cable subscribers at nominal cost. <cable co> will not supply such a device to me, they insist that I subscribe to other tiers of cable service before I can have access to the device to properly receive basic cable.
I really am not following how you think this is going to work. What you say in your letter is simply not true! A cablecard is NOT required to access in the clear local channels. Any QAM capable TV or set top box can access it with NO problems! The cablecards purpose is to decode encrypted channels. The cable company is perfectly within their rights to deny basic cable users a cablecard, regardless of whether we like it or not! That is the WHOLE purpose of this thread.

The fact that the TiVo won't allow guide data on a digital channel without a cablecard is a limitation of the TiVo, not the cable company!!
__________________
-----------------------------
Check out my (mostly) IT blog!

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Adam1115 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2006, 10:02 PM   #105
Scopeman
2 x Basic Roamio
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by btwyx
I don't think its arrogance, I wouldn't fancy the support headaches this would involve. As I've said many times, the problem's already been solved. Cable cards are the right solution for this.
CableCards are a terrible idea for this.

I get QAM locals and have no CableCards. All I had to due was file a lineup error report with Tivo explaining that the program data for my 6 QAM channels was missing. Tivo contacted the local TW office and got confirmation of what was on the channels (what local OTA channels they mapped to) and about 3 weeks later I had program data show up for my QAM channels.

There is no reason for it to be harder in any other market unless the local cable co chooses to be a pain.

But first you have to engage Tivo with a request to make the lineup correction.
__________________
Scopeman
Scopeman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2006, 10:05 PM   #106
Scopeman
2 x Basic Roamio
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam1115
I agree, we are discussing a line up problem, cable company's offer QAM but to people who don't have cable cards it can't be recorded because there is no guide information.

Is anyone having what problem? Small cable companies aren't required to provide cable cards and the ones that do are charging an arm and a leg. What is a nominal cost? $150 might be to a small cable co that has to buy them, and pull half their crew off for a day to figure out how to make them work..

Anyway, yes people are having this problem, Here's one:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=328433

I wonder if this guys college is going to provide cablecards??

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=328513
See my previous post - you are correct that it is a lineup issue, but CableCard is NOT the right way to fix it. Just get Tivo lineup specialists in touch with your local cable co to get the right OTA channel mapping so Tivo can mirror the guide data.
__________________
Scopeman
Scopeman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2006, 12:35 AM   #107
btwyx
Substantive Member
 
btwyx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 11,247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam1115
I really am not following how you think this is going to work. What you say in your letter is simply not true! A cablecard is NOT required to access in the clear local channels.
This is true if the cable company publishes the QAM channel and subchannel onwhich you can receive it. If they do not, which is the common situation, like my cable co adverrtises 5-1 is on channel 705. You need to get a cable card to make it 705. The other purpose of a cable card is mapping QAM channels to advertised cable channels.
Quote:
The cable company is perfectly within their rights to deny basic cable users a cablecard, regardless of whether we like it or not! That is the WHOLE purpose of this thread.
I'll have to differ with you there, given the situation I outline above. If the QAM is advertised, you have a line up problem. If it is not you have a basic cable access problem over which the franchising authority has authority.
Quote:
The fact that the TiVo won't allow guide data on a digital channel without a cablecard is a limitation of the TiVo, not the cable company!!
Does you cable company publish the QAM channel/subchannel on which you receive the channel? That's the important point.
__________________
Premier Elite, Lifetime
Premier XL, Lifetime
Premier Lifetime (at Mom's)
btwyx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2006, 01:17 AM   #108
btwyx
Substantive Member
 
btwyx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 11,247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam1115
The cable company is perfectly within their rights to deny basic cable users a cablecard, regardless of whether we like it or not! That is the WHOLE purpose of this thread.
The real question is whether you can persuade the franchsing authority that they are not within their right to do this, and how much notice the cable company will take of this. Both are interesting questions, which have not been answered.

The whole point off the thread is to get affected people TiVo service. One technical solution has been proposed. If there are better technical, or administrative solutions you'd be best off seeing if those work for you.

Does it matter how you get your TiVo service to work?
__________________
Premier Elite, Lifetime
Premier XL, Lifetime
Premier Lifetime (at Mom's)
btwyx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2006, 09:55 AM   #109
Adam1115
20,000!!!
 
Adam1115's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Denver ish
Posts: 23,679
BTWYX-

Thanks, I follow your argument now! I'll have to check and see how mine remaps as I get my locals OTA.
__________________
-----------------------------
Check out my (mostly) IT blog!

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Adam1115 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2006, 03:27 PM   #110
Saxion
Substantive Member
 
Saxion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego
Posts: 485
Quote:
Originally Posted by btwyx
1. Cable cards are mandated access method for accessing digital cable.
Of course not, but I suspect you know this. CableCards are a decryption device, and thus are only mandated for access control to encrypted services. The very reason that MSOs are not allowed to encrypt rebroadcasted OTA signals is to keep access to them available to basic cable customers without CableCards, which of course they are. TiVo can receive them just fine...the only issue here is that the TiVo guide is messed up. Your MSO has no incentive or mandate to fix your TiVo guide. In fact they'd just as soon not, to incentivize you to use their revenue-generating box.

TiVo, on the other hand, very much has an incentive to fix their broken guide.

You are tilting at windmills if you think you are going to convince an MSO to change their entire pricing structure to accommodate TiVo's broken guide. Forcing CableCards on basic cable customers just to fix TiVo's broken guide is hitting a very small nail with a very big hammer. Yes it works, but it's an expensive exercise in complete overkill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scopeman
CableCards are a terrible idea for this.

I get QAM locals and have no CableCards. All I had to due was file a lineup error report with Tivo explaining that the program data for my 6 QAM channels was missing. Tivo contacted the local TW office and got confirmation of what was on the channels (what local OTA channels they mapped to) and about 3 weeks later I had program data show up for my QAM channels.
Now this is a much better idea than using CableCards...convince the MSO to include accurate PSIP data. In fact, this is the "right" solution here and is within the spirit of the FCC regs regarding rebroadcasting of OTA signals. The problem here is more of a practical reality...I am not interested in an S3 unless it can map local HD into the program guide, yet I'd have to buy one first (in order to be able to complain to TiVo customer support) and hope my MSO can be similarly convinced to fix their PSIP stream. That is a very expensive gamble. Also, the MSO doesn't create the PSIP data, it just passes along what it gets from each broadcaster, so you are relying on a long and complex chain to all "do the right thing" in order for the desired end result to occur (fixed TiVo guide). Good luck getting an MSO and 6 local broadcasters to listen to you or help diagnose problems...

I like the goal of fixing the PSIP stream, but the only practical solution in the short term (and a good backup plan as well) is to have a backdoor into the TiVo channel map so that our $800 investment isn't reliant on so many things outside of our own control.
Saxion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2006, 05:07 PM   #111
sommerfeld
Lucky (?) 200 member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Arlington, MA
Posts: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormspace
I was under the impression that QAM would be limited to broadcast stations only. Everything else would be encrypted. Is that wrong?
As I understand it, QAM is a modulation scheme allowing arbitrary bitstreams to be carried over various cable frequencies.

The bitstreams transported by QAM can be either unencrypted or encrypted. Unencrypted QAM streams can be displayed by a series 3 without help from a cable card; encrypted QAM needs the cable card's help for display.

A cable card, if present, tells the S3 how to map between QAM channel-subchannel pairs and the channel numbers used in program guide information.
sommerfeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2006, 05:31 PM   #112
Saxion
Substantive Member
 
Saxion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego
Posts: 485
Nice summation sommerfeld.

Unencrypted QAM can be decoded/displayed by anything without a CableCard (not just an S3). That's why it's unencrypted...if CableCards were considered "necessary" to receive all digital cable programming, then all channels would be encrypted.
Saxion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2006, 06:09 PM   #113
Saxion
Substantive Member
 
Saxion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego
Posts: 485
Quote:
Originally Posted by mportuesi
As I recall, QAM remapping is your pet feature, not mine.

My "pet features" are either:
The difference, of course, is that I've never advocated forcing you to spend more money to overcome your missing features.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mportuesi
- bug fixes for debilitating flaws in the current software (toxic recordings, partial recordings) which have appeal to 100% of the user base
Baloney. Toxic recordings have affected a very, very small part of the user base. But that's the difference between us...even though things like this only affect a small minority of the TiVo family, I've never advocated not fixing them. Of course TiVo should fix these bugs! And the QAM mapping problem too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mportuesi
- or Series 2 features that should be part of the product but aren't there (MRV, Tivo-To-Go) that have appeal to the vast majority of users.
Baloney. MRV does not appeal to the "vast majority", the vast majority do not own multiple TiVos. But again, that shouldn't keep TiVo from fixing all these issues.

Your whole argument seems to be that providing a QAM map backdoor is so difficult that it will mean other things won't get fixed. That's absurd. For all you know, it's already finished, and the reason it's not activated yet is not even a technical one. And if it's not ready yet, it is not a difficult thing to do. Or are you saying that companies like Sony have such a talented group of engineers that they would dare approach the hopeless can of worms that is manual QAM channel mapping? I like to give the TiVo engineers a little more credit than that.
Saxion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 04:39 AM   #114
vstone
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Martinsville, VA
Posts: 1,223
Is it possible that cableLabs won't explicitly or implicitly approve Tivo software with QAM mapping?
vstone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 04:59 AM   #115
TydalForce
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 1,013
That's entirely possible, and if that's the case than this entire conversation is purely academic

Or, maybe TiVo has it in the works, but left it out for the initial release and it'll hit in a future software update

Or maybe they didn't think anyone would want it, so just didn't bother... or maybe said nobody *should* have it and won't implement it...

and so on...
TydalForce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 04:43 PM   #116
russwong
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 231
I was on the fence of transferring my lifetime, but the need to use a cable card is unfortunate. I only record the broadcast clear QAM HD channels on my HTPC. I only have basic cable and adding cable card to the mix would just seem to complicate the situation. My TV can tune the unencrypted qam channels fine and map them to the TV Guide application that is part of the TV, I think it would be good if Tivo could do it. My HD Capture card has the ability to map the unencrypted QAM channel to the proper guide channels so I'm able to record via a guide on my HTPC. I already pay for the HD subscription, so why give Comcast more money if I don't have to?

Any real idea on if Tivo is every going to make this a feature, as now I'm starting to lean away from the fence of upgrading, especially at the $800+ tag.

Thoughts?

Russell
__________________
Russ Wong
MCE 2005 with 5 HD tuners, 1 Analog Tuner, and now with 2.1TB storage.
MCE 2005 dual analog tuner with 400 hours
Tivo Series 2 with 240 hours Lifetime - Decomissioned (anyone interested?)
russwong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 06:25 PM   #117
Saxion
Substantive Member
 
Saxion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego
Posts: 485
Quote:
Originally Posted by vstone
Is it possible that cableLabs won't explicitly or implicitly approve Tivo software with QAM mapping?
Since other devices exist that are CableLabs-approved (complete with CableCard slot) and that do support user remapping of clear QAM channels into the guide (i.e. Sony DHGHDD250), it can't be a CableLabs approval problem.

My worry is that it's more of a "let's not p/o our potential Cable partnerships" problem. Your cable company would love to "force" you to upgrade to a digital tier+HDTV service+CableCards, just to be able to enjoy what you are already entitled to as a basic cable customer. TiVo does not want to step on any Cable toes, for risk of souring future partnership deals. Put the two together and you have the recipe for a missing QAM mapping feature...

Russell: welcome to our growing group! Be sure to lobby TiVo for this missing feature by going here to put in a feature request: http://research.tivo.com/suggestions/2web519.htm

Last edited by Saxion : 11-28-2006 at 06:40 PM.
Saxion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 06:53 PM   #118
ashu
User title defunct
 
ashu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: MD
Posts: 9,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxion
Put the two together and you have the recipe for a missing QAM mapping feature...
A Conspiracy Theory - I wouldn't be too surprised. This sounds like a very likely scenario.

Let's say I'd rather have TiVo lobby for MRV/TTG (at least to other S3s, or at least of SD content) - and that is precisely what they appear tyo be concetrating on. On a prioritization issue - I'm completely in agreement, if that is what this is!
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(Too many TiVos!)

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo!
So little time! So much to know!
ashu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2006, 07:30 PM   #119
Saxion
Substantive Member
 
Saxion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego
Posts: 485
Everybody loves a Conspiracy Theory!

The QAM-frequency-to-channel-number mapping is this weird sort of backdoor that Cable can use to encourage upgrades in service, even though the reception of HD network rebroadcasts falls squarely under the basic cable mandate. I believe that Cable hates the fact that OTA rebroadcasts must be sent in-the-clear, and they would just LOVE to encrypt them, but of course they can't. So, barring that, they want to make it look like you need to upgrade to Digital+HD service in order to receive these most popular of channels. And one of the ways they do that is to tie the channel map to the CableCard. (Another way is through marketing, where they avoid any suggestion that local HD rebroadcasts can be received in a Basic Cable package...notice how the HD locals are always, ALWAYS shown in the upgraded "HD" tier!)

It's almost like the FCC mandated in-the-clear transmission of HD locals but forgot about the channel numbering...if they had simply mandated that channel map data be available in the absence of a CableCard, we would not have this problem.
Saxion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2006, 02:17 AM   #120
c3
TiVoholic
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 3,042
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxion
notice how the HD locals are always, ALWAYS shown in the upgraded "HD" tier!
My Comcast channel guide clearly lists the local HD channels as limited basic.
__________________
TiVo Roamio Plus (10/18/2013): WD30EURS
5 TiVo HDs: WD10EACS, WD1000FYPS, WD10EACS, WD5000ABYS, WD10EADS
Addicted to TiVo since 9/16/2000, all lifetime subs
c3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Forum Jump




Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Advertisements

TiVo Community
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skins by: Relivo Media

(C) 2013 Magenium Solutions - All Rights Reserved. No information may be posted elsewhere without written permission.
TiVoŽ is a registered trademark of TiVo Inc. This site is not owned or operated by TiVo Inc.
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:06 AM.
OUR NETWORK: MyOpenRouter | TechLore | SansaCommunity | RoboCommunity | MediaSmart Home | Explore3DTV | Dijit Community | DVR Playground |