Fall 2006 Pricing Changes - FAQ

[samo]

I'm pointing out that there is a difference between expressing opinions and accusing someone of wrongdoing.

Wow... Chucky, you are the one who imply that TiVo is doing something wrong. My post actually points out to a possibility that TiVo managers are not a bunch of idiots, but just are doing what is best for shareholders. It is their fiduciary duty to do what is in their power (without breaking any laws) to prevent sharp moves in stock prices. It is a business 101 - do not scare investors if you don't have to. New pricing structure encourages owners of the old un-subbed units to replace them with free new units. How does it increase churn? SAC will not increase substantially because of the profits on S3 in Q4. If TiVo came up with new price structure for the reasons I mentioned in my original post that would be a slick, smart and completely legal move. Every single company that needs to get rid of obsolete inventory is doing similar things. TiVo has been running on hype since the day 1. Nothing wrong with that. It is no different than any other dot.com or biotech. It is acceptable practice. If I wanted to accuse "TiVo management of adopting business practices with the intent to deceive or mislead investors" I would use something like 2 million broadband enabled units out of 1.5 million sold (Just an example, I could come up with something better if my intent was to badmouth TiVo).

[bicker]

Originally Posted by ChuckyBox

You are publicly accusing TiVo management of adopting business practices with the intent to deceive or mislead investors. That's probably actionable.

To be fair, it's only actionable if the poster has specific credibility.

[bicker]

Originally Posted by Phantom Gremlin

This forum is more of a "bull session" than anything else.

More bull than session. It's really just blustering, posturing and other silliness. I think reasonable and rational discussion ended around Page 5. People get very upset when things don't go their way, and that degrades any discussions about those things -- it becomes more about the emotion behind (in this case) having to pay more (whether real or imagined) rather than anything constructive or useful.

[Gai-jin]

Originally Posted by bicker

More bull than session. It's really just blustering, posturing and other silliness. I think reasonable and rational discussion ended around Page 5. People get very upset when things don't go their way, and that degrades any discussions about those things -- it becomes more about the emotion behind (in this case) having to pay more (whether real or imagined) rather than anything constructive or useful.

And that's where, rather than constructive discussion, you've got people in here accusing others of whining etc.

Personally, I'd rather have answers to the questions that have been asked.

[classicsat]

Originally Posted by samo

Every single company that needs to get rid of obsolete inventory is doing similar things.

The older Series 2 DVRs out there are technically just as modern, capability wise, as new boxes, unless there is some hidden feature that only TiVo knows about that would warrant a conversion of the older boxes to new ones.

Also, in mind though, is that currently subbed boxes rates won't change, so if Tivo really wanted to eliminate older Series 2 boxes in favor of newer Series 2 boxes, they would offer some sort of program, or disincentive to keep them in service.

In short, I don't think they mind older Series 2s out there, should have some sort of stick out there to keep or put the older unsubbed Series 2s in service.

[samo]

Originally Posted by classicsat

The older Series 2 DVRs out there are technically just as modern, capability wise, as new boxes, unless there is some hidden feature that only TiVo knows about that would warrant a conversion of the older boxes to new ones.

Nothing hidden. It has been discussed here many times. TiVo can not legally sell S2 boxes after March of next year because they don't have built-in OTA digital tuner. They would have to destroy all un-sold inventory. DT units are OK because they don't have tuner at all.

[dswallow]

Originally Posted by samo

Nothing hidden. It has been discussed here many times. TiVo can not legally sell S2 boxes after March of next year because they don't have built-in OTA digital tuner. They would have to destroy all un-sold inventory. DT units are OK because they don't have tuner at all.

You know what DT stands for, right? Dual Tuner.

Though it can't tune UHF channels; the tuner is meant for cable analog channels, though VHF 2-13 use the same frequencies over the air.

[samo]

Originally Posted by dswallow

You know what DT stands for, right? Dual Tuner.

Though it can't tune UHF channels; the tuner is meant for cable analog channels, though VHF 2-13 use the same frequencies over the air.

Sure. I wasn't clear. DT does not have OTA tuner, it is cable tuner only so it is exempt from digital tuner requirement.

[bicker]

Originally Posted by Gai-jin

Personally, I'd rather have answers to the questions that have been asked.

That ignores the fact that customers don't have any God-given rights to get every question they have answered. Ask Coke or KFC for its secret formula, and you'll get silence, as you should. Asking these questions in this public forum is nothing more than a means to express frustration -- no reasonable person would believe that someone would share proprietary information like that that governs pricing in a public discussion thread. You'd be lucky if you'd even get hints about that sort of thing in a face-to-face discussion.

[rainwater]

Originally Posted by bicker

That ignores the fact that customers don't have any God-given rights to get every question they have answered.

As a customer I think I have the right to know how much my service will cost. As of I now, it is not clear how much that will be. The FAQ doesn't address existing customers (especially users on bundled deals).

[classicsat]

Originally Posted by samo

Nothing hidden. It has been discussed here many times. TiVo can not legally sell S2 boxes after March of next year because they don't have built-in OTA digital tuner. They would have to destroy all un-sold inventory. DT units are OK because they don't have tuner at all.

Then they should offer some clearance deal for just them.

The pricing scheme is not about eliminatng those "obsolete" boxes.

[bicker]

Originally Posted by rainwater

As a customer I think I have the right to know how much my service will cost.

If you pay for the service today, yes, you do have a right to know how much you must pay for it. You don't have a right to demand to know, definitely, what it will cost if you decide to pay for service tomorrow, or next month, or next year.

[ChuckyBox]

Originally Posted by samo

Wow... Chucky, you are the one who imply that TiVo is doing something wrong.

I made no such implication. The thing you suggested that TiVo management was doing would be illegal for them to do. It would cost the company money in order to conceal a management mistake.

New pricing structure encourages owners of the old un-subbed units to replace them with free new units.

How many people with used, unsubbed boxes do you think reactivate those boxes in any given quarter? Given the minimum 1-year service commitment that's been in place for a year now, that number might be a couple of thousand, but I doubt that it would be that high.

Your entire argument is predicated on the assumption that there is an excess inventory of S2ST boxes, but there is not a shread of evidence that such a excess exists now, or will exist in March.

If I wanted to accuse "TiVo management of adopting business practices with the intent to deceive or mislead investors" I would use something like 2 million broadband enabled units out of 1.5 million sold (Just an example, I could come up with something better if my intent was to badmouth TiVo).

Two million is a reasonable number for units sold. That only 1.5 million are currently subscribed is a consequence of churn, something that new broadband features could help stem.

[ChuckyBox]

Originally Posted by samo

It has been discussed here many times. TiVo can not legally sell S2 boxes after March of next year because they don't have built-in OTA digital tuner. They would have to destroy all un-sold inventory.

No destruction of inventory would be necessary. If there are a small number of boxes, they could be held and used for warranty replacements. If the number was larger, TiVo could easily deactivate NTSC OTA capabilities in software and market the box as cable- and satellite-only.

[HDTiVo]

Originally Posted by ChuckyBox

You and Gai-jin need to learn the definition of "troll." Then you need to look in the mirror.


I'm not protecting my "vested insterests [sic]" (as usual, you think you know more than you do), I'm pointing out that there is a difference between expressing opinions and accusing someone of wrongdoing. While there is precedent for companies going after individuals on message boards, I assume TiVo's management have thicker skins than to worry about what is a minor, isolated incident. But that doesn't make it any less inappropriate or distasteful.

I frankly don't understand why you people who hate TiVo so much spend your time on a TiVo board trying to run down the company and the products. (NB: there is a definition of "troll" in that statement.) It makes one wonder if you have some "vested interest" in doing so.


I have no idea what you are talking about.

A beautiful example of you being a Troll.

[ChuckyBox]

Originally Posted by HDTiVo

A beautiful example of you being a Troll.

And still you haven't learned the definition of "troll." A beautiful example of you thinking you know more than you do.

[samo]

How many people with used, unsubbed boxes do you think reactivate those boxes in any given quarter? Given the minimum 1-year service commitment that's been in place for a year now, that number might be a couple of thousand, but I doubt that it would be that high.

You are right on this one. This argument by itself shots my theory down altogether. No need to argue on rest of the speculations.

[Gai-jin]

Originally Posted by bicker

That ignores the fact that customers don't have any God-given rights to get every question they have answered. Ask Coke or KFC for its secret formula, and you'll get silence, as you should. Asking these questions in this public forum is nothing more than a means to express frustration -- no reasonable person would believe that someone would share proprietary information like that that governs pricing in a public discussion thread. You'd be lucky if you'd even get hints about that sort of thing in a face-to-face discussion.

Wow, way to throw negativity into the thread while not remotely discussing the topic.

I don't think anyone here is asking for a secret formula. Instead, we want to know, [b]how does this affect us?[b] What happens in situation A? B? Z?

So far, that hasn't been answered. Instead we have people like yourselves riding in on your high horse and yet contributing nothing to the thread.

[ChuckyBox]

Originally Posted by Gai-jin

I don't think anyone here is asking for a secret formula. Instead, we want to know, [b]how does this affect us?[b] What happens in situation A? B? Z?

It is entirely reasonable to want more information, and to request it. And many people have done just that. Demanding it and attacking the people who provide it (which we've also seen) is neither reasonable nor productive.

Your sig belies your protestations of simply wanting information:

Not buying/referring again because of ridiculous new pricing.

That indicates you're in no way open to whatever additional information TiVo chooses to supply. And that probably explains a lot of the reaction you are getting.

If you really want more information, why don't you do something useful like compiling a list of questions people have about specific situations and present it in a way that someone from TiVo can answer it all in one place. They may not respond, but then at least you'll have something new to be pissed about.

[Gai-jin]

My sig indicates how I feel about the information that has currently been provided. Additional information could lessen my dissatisfaction, though short of a CHANGE in the policy for existing hardware, that's not very likely.

As far as I can tell, this thread already has all the questions people are asking, in one nice handy thread. It also has people going into attack mode at the people asking questions, which I don't understand. It would seem to me that some people here, who are so quick to defend tivo by attacking others, have real issues. Debating the issue is one thing. Attacking others because you stand on an indefensible position is a whole separate issue.

[bicker]

Seems to me that you're the one who seem to be unable to maintain a mature demeanor. Chucky and I are participating based on our experiences. I'm surely not "quick to defend TiVo" -- take a look at the 7.3/7.3.1 threads and the S3 Missing Channels threads and you'll see I give TiVo criticism when it is warrented.

If you cannot handle people disagreeing with you, you shouldn't read their messages.

[Gai-jin]

Originally Posted by bicker

Seems to me that you're the one who seem to be unable to maintain a mature demeanor. Chucky and I are participating based on our experiences. I'm surely not "quick to defend TiVo" -- take a look at the 7.3/7.3.1 threads and the S3 Missing Channels threads and you'll see I give TiVo criticism when it is warrented.

If you cannot handle people disagreeing with you, you shouldn't read their messages.

I've got no problem with good natured debate. It's when you start the attacks and name calling I lose respect for anything else you post.

[ChuckyBox]

Originally Posted by Gai-jin

As far as I can tell, this thread already has all the questions people are asking, in one nice handy thread.

And no one from TiVo is under any obligation to sift through all this crap to get to the legitimate questions. Their participation here is voluntary, a favor to us, and at the expense of other work they could be doing. They're busy people, going into their busiest season, and they don't likely have a lot of excess time to wade through every thread on this forum to find a few legitimate questions, especially since every time they do some dimwit attacks them or demands more.

If someone took the time to post a FAUQ (Frequently Asked Unanswered Questions), maybe, just maybe, they might get some answers.

Attacking others because you stand on an indefensible position is a whole separate issue.

You mean like calling someone a "troll" because he points out that you've posted the same thing multiple times?

[Gai-jin]

Originally Posted by ChuckyBox

You mean like calling someone a "troll" because he points out that you've posted the same thing multiple times?

I don't believe I've done anything of the sort. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I generally reference trolls when someone contributes little or nothing to a thread, except to insult or attack another poster.

[samo]

Originally Posted by ChuckyBox

You mean like calling someone a "troll" because he points out that you've posted the same thing multiple times?

Actually I think that it was HDTiVo who called you troll, I don't think Gai ever did. As for multiple posts rehashing the same questions - it happens here all the time and it is not trolling. I guess the main beef of just about everybody in this thread is a fact that there is no discount on re-sub of existing units. Since you successfully shot down my theory on why TiVo is doing that, there is no reasonable explanation to this paradox. "Take it or leave it" is not an answer that people are expecting.

[ChuckyBox]

Originally Posted by samo

I guess the main beef of just about everybody in this thread is a fact that there is no discount on re-sub of existing units. Since you successfully shot down my theory on why TiVo is doing that, there is no reasonable explanation to this paradox. "Take it or leave it" is not an answer that people are expecting.

My position here has been the same -- I think re-subbed units should get the 3-year rate on both single and MSD boxes. I can't see why this would be a problem, but I don't have the data the folks at TiVo have. They may clarify this issue, or they may stick with "take it or leave it." At this point, like I said, I think they are largely focused on the holiday sales, so we may have to wait for an answer.

[ZeoTiVo]

That is my one sticking pointg on this change as well. I did a bundle deal with the expectation that at the end of the bundle I would committ to one more year to start paying the 6.95 MSd rate. Now the FAQ is stating I will have to committ to 3 years. An implication in these threads is we may only need to do 1 year as originally thought.

the FAQ 2.0 could clarify such questions and go to Chucky's point of honoring some of the deals as they were when the hardware was bought by the owner. TiVo has the dates and knows when a TiVo is passed to a new account. It would be nice if TiVo only used this new pricing for hardware acquired by someone after the date of the new pricing.

[Phantom Gremlin]

Originally Posted by ChuckyBox

They're busy people

Here's an exclusive inside look at just how busy the people at TiVo are:

http://theory.rockefeller.edu/

Sorry. I can't resist. Whenever anyone tells me just how hard the people at TiVo are working, I can't help but to think of the Doorknob Principle.

[ChuckyBox]

Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo

the FAQ 2.0 could clarify such questions and go to Chucky's point of honoring some of the deals as they were when the hardware was bought by the owner.

Maybe someone other than me can organize a flash mob in the lobby of TiVo HQ and demand a better pricing FAQ.

[tbeckner]

Originally Posted by ChuckyBox

My position here has been the same -- I think re-subbed units should get the 3-year rate on both single and MSD boxes. I can't see why this would be a problem, but I don't have the data the folks at TiVo have. They may clarify this issue, or they may stick with "take it or leave it." At this point, like I said, I think they are largely focused on the holiday sales, so we may have to wait for an answer.

Dear ChuckyBox,

Based upon the response that I received from the CSR at TiVo that I called late last week; at this time the re-subscription of an existing box (even six+ years old) is a "take it or leave it" and a "what you see is what you get" situation.

There appears to be no wiggle room, so in the case of my SVR-2000 it is a "leave it" situation. I have to assume that they can do without my $12.95 per month, for a box bought in May of 2000 and subscribed for more than three years continuously, first at $9.95 per month and then at $12.95 per month.

And I have a very funny feeling that this situation will NOT change at anytime in the future; in other words we are "YELLING INTO GALE FORCE WINDS".