Could TiVo get us specific instructions for cable co. to initialze cards?

[minckster]

Reading through the official CableCARD threads, it seems that the most frequent source of problem is the cable companies not provisioning, initializing, or hitting the cableCARDs correctly. Could TiVo provide us with specific instructions for the CSRs, preferably with screen shots? Then we could tell the CSR, "You see the line 'xy' on your screen? Enter this number there. See the 'zzy' line? Enter that number there. Now press enter."

I imagine that there must be a small number of software packages used by the cable companies for provisioning cableCARDs, probably one for Scientific-Atlanta and another for Motorola. I suspect that the CSRs are entering numbers in the wrong fields or failing to select the correct option after entering the data correctly.

[FlippedBit]

WARNING: The following is a rant that contains no information that will help anybody but TiVo themselves. If you are not interested, then skip this post.

I agree. TiVo is opperating according to the way the world should work, not according the the way the world is really working. TiVo has not done anything to to help it's customers who are dealing with incompetent cable provider employees. I agree that it is the cable providers job to know how to install a cable card, however, it is not the cable providers that will suffer financially if they don't know how. TiVo should do what they can to maximize profits and not lock themselves into the rules af a game which isn't the game being played.

My S3 is working fine now after a painful one week install involving seven scheduled tech visits, four of which the tech actually showed up. I really had to dig to figure out why the cards weren't working. On my last visit, the tech was very appreciative of the information I was able to provide and this led to a successful install, finally. Unfortunately, TiVo was no help at all in solving the problem. The average user isn't going to do as much research as I did and, in a similar situation, would ultimately have to return a perfectly operational S3. That is a scenario which helps the cable companies and hurts TiVo.

[minckster]

Originally Posted by FlippedBit

WARNING: The following is a rant that contains no information that will help anybody but TiVo themselves. If you are not interested, then skip this post.

I agree. TiVo is opperating according to the way the world should work, not according the the way the world is really working. TiVo has not done anything to to help it's customers who are dealing with incompetent cable provider employees. I agree that it is the cable providers job to know how to install a cable card, however, it is not the cable providers that will suffer financially if they don't know how. TiVo should do what they can to maximize profits and not lock themselves into the rules af a game which isn't the game being played.

My S3 is working fine now after a painful one week install involving seven scheduled tech visits, four of which the tech actually showed up. I really had to dig to figure out why the cards weren't working. On my last visit, the tech was very appreciative of the information I was able to provide and this led to a successful install, finally. Unfortunately, TiVo was no help at all in solving the problem. The average user isn't going to do as much research as I did and, in a similar situation, would ultimately have to return a perfectly operational S3. That is a scenario which helps the cable companies and hurts TiVo.

I suppose I mostly agree - that TiVo could be doing things better. Two other ideas are:

1. Make the installer's instructions more user friendly. The instructions don't look easy and there are reports of installers just tossing them aside refusing to follow them. More pictures and more bullet points would probably help. Spanish wouldn't hurt either. (And if TiVo is entering Quebec or New Brunswick, they may as well add French too while they're at it.)
2. If at all possible, change the software so that it is no longer recommended to provision the first card entirely before starting the second. Installers don't want to call twice and wait on hold. (I'm stunned to read that the cable companies' employees can't jump the line and have to wait on hold with the rest of us. Aren't they paid by the hour?)

[GA_HiDef]

FlippedBit, if you have a pointer to a write on your experience, I would appreciate it. I am starting the battle tomorrow afternoon. I sooooo look forward to this.

Robert

[rockhome]

I don't think that the process is so standard. WHen I had my cards installed, the installer didn't even need to record any of the information. He had a handheld that activated the cards remotely. He only had to call in to do sometroubleshooting as I wasn't getting some of the channels. After a minor bit of rewiring and we were cooking with gas.

I think your experience depends on your provider, the installer, and your wiring mostly. If th provider doesn't want to fully support the cards and the installers don't know a whole lot about them, then your are in Barney. If the providers have a decent system set up and knowledgeable installer, you'll be good.

[hookbill]

Yes, we really need another thread to discuss this.

[adventurelarry]

How do we know that Tivo has not worked with the cable companies, and that the cable companies have not disseminated the information to their Customer Service Reps. and Technicians?

I am not saying that this has happened, I just do not know either way so I am not going to throw either Tivo or the cable company under the bus without knowing one way or another.

--Larry

[ZeoTiVo]

perhaps we should have TiVo hold the hands of our kids at school while they play tag so the real world is that much better.


will TiVo lose customers do to hard to install cable cards? sure, good point to discuss. But TiVo has to look at the business case of fing the cable companies' job for them. What is the ROI on spending TiVo resources on it. would the cable company even want that level of help? I mean come on - many of the problem threads had the installers ignoring even the basic but detailed install instructions related specifically to the TiVo.

[FlippedBit]

Originally Posted by GA_HiDef

FlippedBit, if you have a pointer to a write on your experience, I would appreciate it. I am starting the battle tomorrow afternoon. I sooooo look forward to this.

Robert

Try to follow the direction exactly. Be patient. Don't let the installer deviate from the directions. Look at the alternative directions on the TiVo website that includes some screen shots. After performing each step, it can take several minutes for the results to become evident. So again, be patient. I have posted the details of my specific situation so you can look at my other posts. Here is the thread where I posted the details of the final visit where my last problem was solved:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...0&page=4&pp=30

good luck!

[FlippedBit]

Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo

perhaps we should have TiVo hold the hands of our kids at school while they play tag so the real world is that much better.


will TiVo lose customers do to hard to install cable cards? sure, good point to discuss. But TiVo has to look at the business case of fing the cable companies' job for them. What is the ROI on spending TiVo resources on it. would the cable company even want that level of help? I mean come on - many of the problem threads had the installers ignoring even the basic but detailed install instructions related specifically to the TiVo.

In my case, the installer was grateful for the help I gave him. If TiVo would provide us with more information, then we could pass that on the the installers. Regarding ROI, I thing it would be money well spent. How much would it cost to put together an installation video? How much would it cost to put together a troubleshooting guide with specific failure scenarios, their cause, and the solution? This would all cost less than the money spent on having Mr. Tivo taking a bow in the stratup sequence. On one visit, the installer left saying there was probably something wrong with my TiVo. This put the ball in my court and I would have appreciated some help from TiVo. Thankfully I got enought help from this forum, that I was able to prove that my TiVo was fine and held Comcast's feet to the fire.

Have TiVo hold our kid's hands? you don't need to be a prick about it.

[bicker]

Originally Posted by hookbill

Yes, we really need another thread to discuss this.

Just a reflection of just how much the lack of robustness in the design has caused problems.

[FlippedBit]

Originally Posted by adventurelarry

How do we know that Tivo has not worked with the cable companies, and that the cable companies have not disseminated the information to their Customer Service Reps. and Technicians?

I am not saying that this has happened, I just do not know either way so I am not going to throw either Tivo or the cable company under the bus without knowing one way or another.

--Larry

In my conversations with installers and CSR's at Comcast, they all had limited knowledge and training regarding cable cards or the Series 3. If things just didn't work, they were always immediately stuck. I had to tell them I had a bad cable card, I had to tell them the card wasn't initialized correctly, I had to tell them they needed to do an "initialize, hit, and refresh" and not just do a "hit".

TiVo sent the cable companies the installation information but I think it is naive on TiVo's part to think that this would guarantee success. For me, it was the research I did that got my S3 working, not the information TiVo provided the cable companies. What percentage of S3's are not functioning because of CC/CP issues? Who knows, but I doubt my situation was special or rare. At this point I am throwing them both under the bus.

[adventurelarry]

Originally Posted by bicker

Just a reflection of just how much the lack of robustness in the design has caused problems.

My S3, and my experience has led me to believe it is the robustness of the cable cards that is the issue. Once good cards are installed the S3 works great.

It did take 3 visits from Charter to get the cards working, I cannot blame Tivo for that, I blame Scientific Atlanta.

--Larry

[Leo_N]

Originally Posted by adventurelarry

My S3, and my experience has led me to believe it is the robustness of the cable cards that is the issue. Once good cards are installed the S3 works great.

It did take 3 visits from Charter to get the cards working, I cannot blame Tivo for that, I blame Scientific Atlanta.

--Larry

Agreed. I'd say Scientific Atlanta and Motorola both have a vested interest in cablecards not working well. It means more sales of the cable provided set top boxes for them. Much higher profit from the box than a card.

I'd imagine that will change when the cable companies have to change all their boxes over to cable card devices next year. Well, next year if they don't get that date pushed back.

[bicker]

Originally Posted by adventurelarry

My S3, and my experience has led me to believe it is the robustness of the cable cards that is the issue. Once good cards are installed the S3 works great.

That wasn't my experience. Rather, even with good cards, things seem to work only some of the time, i.e., lack of robustness in the design.

[adventurelarry]

Originally Posted by bicker

That wasn't my experience. Rather, even with good cards, things seem to work only some of the time, i.e., lack of robustness in the design.

I am curious, what specifically does not work that is inherent to the Tivo design rather than the Cable Cards. My S3 has had no issues since getting working cable cards.

On the other hand, since the most recent upgrade my S2's have run very slow, that I blame on Tivo.

--Larry

[MichaelK]

Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo

perhaps we should have TiVo hold the hands of our kids at school while they play tag so the real world is that much better.


will TiVo lose customers do to hard to install cable cards? sure, good point to discuss. But TiVo has to look at the business case of fing the cable companies' job for them. What is the ROI on spending TiVo resources on it. would the cable company even want that level of help? I mean come on - many of the problem threads had the installers ignoring even the basic but detailed install instructions related specifically to the TiVo.

I see your point but the tivo supplied instructions are pathetic.

For example I hot a swirl screen for about 6 minutes "downloading channels" there is no mention at all of that screen anyplace that I can find.

ALso in another thread it's theorized that you MUST test channels to kick the cards into gear. If that is the case the directions should be more specific and say so.

Do thy need to do the job for the cable compnaies? Maybe, maybe not. But they should at least explain their end of things in a complete manner.

[bicker]

Originally Posted by adventurelarry

I am curious, what specifically does not work that is inherent to the Tivo design rather than the Cable Cards.

I'm not sure I understand your question. I referred only to a general lack of robustness in design. In a different thread, I speculated that CableCard is perhaps bad technology. As such, everything designed to work with them needs to be designed robust enough to operate despite CableCard's inadequacies. Beyond that though, given that these CableCards work in televisions in the neighborhood, they surely should work in S3s, don't you think?

[bicker]

Originally Posted by MichaelK

I see your point but the tivo supplied instructions are pathetic. For example I hot a swirl screen for about 6 minutes "downloading channels" there is no mention at all of that screen anyplace that I can find.

This is really critical. It is my understanding that even besides this "downloading channels" step, there are other parts of the install during which the tech needs to wait, perhaps up to five minutes (i.e., after inserting each CableCard). That should be explicitly spelled out: "Wait until you see XXXX, even if it takes five minutes or more." To these guys, time is money, and even I wouldn't think to sit watching the CableCard inserted screen for five minutes or more, when I can just navigate the menus to get to the information I need for the next step, if I didn't know that waiting for it to come up automatically made a difference.

[adventurelarry]

Originally Posted by bicker

I'm not sure I understand your question. I referred only to a general lack of robustness in design. In a different thread, I speculated that CableCard is perhaps bad technology. As such, everything designed to work with them needs to be designed robust enough to operate despite CableCard's inadequacies. Beyond that though, given that these CableCards work in televisions in the neighborhood, they surely should work in S3s, don't you think?

No I do not. I have read many reports of people having trouble using Cable Cards with their TV's. That again points to the inherent design flaws with the Cable Cards, not the TV's or the S3. The design is robust enough to meet with Cable Labs Certification, not an easy thing to get. The Tivo unit cannot be expected to compensate for another devices inadequacies. You should point the blame at the Cable Card manufacturers, they are the ones making a device which is operating incorrectly with a device that is designed to work with properly functioning cable cards. There are far too many variables as to what could be wrong with the Cable Cards to design the Tivo to compensate for each and every possibility.

I blame the Cable Card manufacterers for not making a product that works correctly each and every time.

I blame the Cable Companies for not properly training their employees.

To lay the blame on Tivo for this issue is to lay the blame on the wrong party. Tivo has enough to blame for with the shipping issues, and the speed issues on the current S2 software.

Do I blame Microsoft when I am having an issue with Firefox because my laptop is running Windows? No.

This is all said with respect, as we can all have our opinions, and they all are valid.

--Larry

[bicker]

Originally Posted by adventurelarry

I have read many reports of people having trouble using Cable Cards with their TV's.

I only track Samsung HDTVs, and I haven't read of any trouble with the Samsung sets that support CableCards. I believe the rates at which people are having trouble, between televisions with CableCards and the S3 with CableCards differ substantially.

That again points to the inherent design flaws with the Cable Cards, not the TV's or the S3.

CableCards are a given. They work in televisions (at least Samsungs). While I agree that CableCard, itself, might be a very persnickity technology, and that perhaps even you can say that the CableCard spec is itself inherently flawed, it is the foundation on which a CableCard product must be designed -- designed for robustness despite the weaknesses of that foundation.

The design is robust enough to meet with Cable Labs Certification

What did that actually entail, specifically with regard to robustness with respect to in-field installation and operation, in actual cable company venues?

There are far too many variables as to what could be wrong with the Cable Cards to design the Tivo to compensate for each and every possibility.

Even if that were true, that would indicate a strong reason not to build the S3, or not to buy the S3 -- it wouldn't be a compelling argument in favor of the S3.

This is all said with respect, as we can all have our opinions, and they all are valid.

Amen.