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Old 10-10-2006, 08:11 PM   #31
MichaelK
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I'm in a townhouse in flemington and my antenna's in the attic. Circuit city at the somerville circle has the phillips brand silver sensor. You probably need a preamp though- circuit city might have one. If not, is there still a radio shack in the shopping center by amwell road and 206? IF not there is one here in flemington on 202 about 3 blocks south of the circle (accross from home depot) and i would guess the rat shack must have 'em.

Patriot has most of the stuff you can get with antenna but there is something cool about getting 20 or 30 channels/subchannels all for free. Plus you'll get philly so if you are into sports you can get different stuff sometimes from the philly feed versus the NY affiliate.

There's a million varibles but if you can buy local and return i'd try it for sure.
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Old 10-10-2006, 08:31 PM   #32
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I'll check CC then. Thanks for the info. I have say the thought of running more wire to the attic doesn't thrill me. I spent several weekends running cat5 and coax and crawling around in the attic here sucks. And I've already filled up all the jacks behind my AV rack.
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Old 10-11-2006, 05:52 PM   #33
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looks like PERHAPS annoying the VP worked. Or the joanies engineers figured it out.

I'm still going through all the channels to see what's up but right now I set up a recording on HBOHD and it's FINE- no nuke flag. CCI is now 0x02.

Looks like they still have the 02 on NBCHD which is also wrong but just getting rig of all the darn 90minute self destructs is a huge huge plus!
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Old 10-11-2006, 05:52 PM   #34
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i'll report back with the cci's for all the channels when i get a chance...
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Old 10-11-2006, 06:14 PM   #35
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Patriot might be yoiung and learning but they ROCK.

all the HD channels are now CCI 0x02

all is well.

No one has gotten back to me to tell me what was up yet but looks like they fixed the erroneous 0x03 flags for sure.
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Old 10-11-2006, 06:27 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelK
Patriot might be yoiung and learning but they ROCK.

all the HD channels are now CCI 0x02

all is well.

No one has gotten back to me to tell me what was up yet but looks like they fixed the erroneous 0x03 flags for sure.
A recording from HDNET last night was not sticken with the "copy never" problem for the first time since the cablecards were installed so that is a good sign. But unless I hear something from Patriot, I'm sceptical that they actually did anything. It could have been the 8.0.1b update TiVo pushed yesterday.

Either way I'll take it.
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Old 10-11-2006, 06:52 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cassiusdrow
A recording from HDNET last night was not sticken with the "copy never" problem for the first time since the cablecards were installed so that is a good sign. But unless I hear something from Patriot, I'm sceptical that they actually did anything. It could have been the 8.0.1b update TiVo pushed yesterday.

Either way I'll take it.
I forced the .b update last night and checked right after and there was no change at that point. So I THINK it was something on Patriots end. But I havn't gotten a reply either so cant be sure.
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Old 10-12-2006, 01:16 PM   #38
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MichaelK,

I sent your questions on to a few different people that I thought might be able to answer. Here is the email:

My Original email and I included your questions....

Hi guys,

I belong to the Tivo Community forums. I started a thread regarding the Tivo S3 and our cable cards. I would like to get as much information on the cable cards as possible. I would also love to have a point of contact should a cable card question come up that I can't answer. Below is a post from one of our customers. This is an example of many questions people have. I appreciate your help on this. Thanks


The reply......

Tracie,

I will have to double check but I believe all of Patriot’s channels are set to “Copy Once”

Over the air channels are not encrypted by Patriot and therefore easy to pick to up with a digital tv. In fact, a cable card would not even be needed to pick up OTA digital channels.


Then I replied back......

Jim,

Is the question regarding the self destruct accurate? I think the concern is that they can't copy and save certain programs/channels. Especially the premium channels. I really don't understand how a program can self destruct. Or is it that it won't record anything over 90 min? Why would we limit a program to only be recorded once or not at all? Are we set for 00x03 or 00x02? I am not sure what this means except according to the person with the questions, I assume in one mode it allows you to copy and the other won't. Sorry for all the questions, but this is a big deal to Tivo users. I have several non Hi-Def Tivo units and will eventually purchase the S3.

Thank you


End of email...

You'll have to forgive my ignorance. I am not familiar with all the Tivo terminology used here

I'll keep you updated the best I can as I get more information.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelK
trlyka-

Thanks for takign the time to post

can you check into the copy protection issue with Joanie or direct us who we need to speak to.

2 specific questions-

1) if other providers dont set their CCI to 00x03 for the premium channels (which casues recorded content to self distruct after 90 minutes) then why is patriot? From reading the otehr threads here on the issue seems that most providers have 00x02 set which allows the tivo to record but not save to VCR.

2) what is with the bogus random copy protection enabled on the boradcast channels- I had it happen to Jericho the othernight on WCBS-DT. I believe that is illegal according to FCC rules.


Luckily i can get philly OTA for broadcast channels so I'm using those for recording everything HD broadcast. But I'm going to dump the HD package and all my movie channels as they are basically worthless to me with the 90 minute limit.


(I cant wait to you get your series3 so you can report back to the higherups first hand what a mess the copy protection is!)

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Old 10-12-2006, 01:42 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trlyka
The reply......

Tracie,

I will have to double check but I believe all of Patriot’s channels are set to “Copy Once”

Over the air channels are not encrypted by Patriot and therefore easy to pick to up with a digital tv. In fact, a cable card would not even be needed to pick up OTA digital channels.


Then I replied back......

Jim,

Is the question regarding the self destruct accurate? I think the concern is that they can't copy and save certain programs/channels. Especially the premium channels. I really don't understand how a program can self destruct. Or is it that it won't record anything over 90 min? Why would we limit a program to only be recorded once or not at all? Are we set for 00x03 or 00x02? I am not sure what this means except according to the person with the questions, I assume in one mode it allows you to copy and the other won't. Sorry for all the questions, but this is a big deal to Tivo users. I have several non Hi-Def Tivo units and will eventually purchase the S3.

Thank you


End of email...

You'll have to forgive my ignorance. I am not familiar with all the Tivo terminology used here

I'll keep you updated the best I can as I get more information.
Tracie,

Thanks for you help with these issues.

The 0x03 notation is how the CableCard displays the CCI (Copy Control Information). The codes translate to:

CCI byte EMI values:
0x00 - Copy freely (no restriction on copying)
0x01 - Copy no more (this is a "copy once" after one additional copy has been made)
0x02 - Copy once (only one additional copy may be made)
0x03 - Copy never (no copies can be made, and recordings must be deleted after 90 minutes)

There are three issues:

1 - Premium channels (HBO, etc) and HD Plus channels (HDNET, INHD, etc) are set to "Copy Never" (0x03). "Copy never" is only permitted to be used on Pay-Per-View and Video On Demand according to Code of Federal Regulations Title 47, Chapter I, Subchapter C, Part 76, specifically §76.1904, paragraph (b)(1). These channels can at most be set to "copy once" (0x02). It is possible that his issue has been resolved as both MichealK and I have been able to make recordings form some of these channels and they do not self-destruct as you put it.

2 - HD Channels for the local broadcast networks (ABC, NBC, CBS, etc) are set to "Copy Once" (0x02). Channels that are broadcast unencrypted over the air should always be set to "copy freely" (0x00) according to Code of Federal Regulations Title 47, Chapter I, Subchapter C, Part 76, specifically §76.1904, paragraph (a).

3 - No channel should ever be set to "copy no more" (0x01). This is intended to be used in conjunction with "copy once" (0x02).
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Old 10-12-2006, 01:45 PM   #40
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trlyka-

thanks for gettign involved. I emailed JG and although I havne't heard back I think he had someone work on it - since it was partially fixed last night.

I learned alot more since my original post.

(I will preface this all with - "as best I understand")

Basically there are 4 possible CCI values for different restriction levels:

0x00 - do whatever you want (MUST be used for OTA- allowed for cable)
0x01 - copy no more (would be set by the tivo after copying a 0x02 below)
0x02- copy once (allowed for 'cable channels)
0x03- copy never (only allowed for PPV or VOD and causes content to self destruct in 90 mns)


Before last night many of the HD "cable" channels wer set to 0x03 (they are all listed above in the various posts but it's pretty much irrelevent now since they all seem fixed now). WHich was illegal. They changed all those to 0x02 so that was great.

MOST channels you guys have set to 0x02. WHich is totally fine for cable type channels. But apparently illegal for the rebroadcast locals. Even though though they fixed the 0x03's last night they still have the HD locals set to 0x02- that is not legal and they should correct it. Right now it's not a probelm for tivo- but if tivo gets MRV or TTG workign then it will be a big deal and there will be another uproar. ALso- I haven't checked the SD digital subchannels like weather plus and the like- but those probably need to be oxoo to be legal too.

Also- I havne't had time to go through each and every SD digital channel but you should tell them to double check those. (it takes forever with tivo to dig up the CCI on a particular channel so i just checked every HD and a few SD's) I happened to stumble along one channel 102 NikP is set to 0x01. That is not allowed for cable. They can only use 0x02 (or 0x00 for no restrictions). So there certainly could be others. That will absoultely make a mess for MRV/TTG. So they should probably check to make sure there are no other 0x01's- I only looked at maybe 10 sd channels and happened to see that one.

Incidently you might ask them why are they even setting everything to 0x02? If the content providers dont require it of you guys (and I doubt every single channel does) then you are just putting undue restirctions on your customers for no reason at all.

thanks agin for passing along my our concerns. You guys really are great how responsive you are.
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Old 10-12-2006, 01:49 PM   #41
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Can you PM me the email address you sent your questions to? I will look into why you didn't get a reply. Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelK
well I emailed the VP and have yet to hear anything. I included the link to the CFR and explained the way I read it was they were not in compliance with the regulation (I dodn't want to say breakign the law just yet). I was curteous and praised there great customer service and the great product compared to Directv but told him this cablecard issue was a major problem.

I have been investigating some more and there is clearly a huge mess going on here.
besides the blocked channels listed above:
UniversalHD, DiscoveryHD, INHD, INHD2, TNTHD, HBOHD, HDNET, HDNET Movies by cassiusdrow and espn by jbarrie I also find it's on starzhd. I didn't check them all but the ones i checked were all set to 0x03.

BUT MORE SCREWED UP is a random sampling of the all digital channels (101and above) shows the CCI flag is basically NEVER 0x00 (like it apparently should be on the retransmitted broadcast locals) but mostly 0x02 or even 0x01 which apparently is only supposed to be reserved for copy once that's already been copied- so that shouldn't be on any live tv show at all.

either their is a serious bug someplace in their headend, the moto cablecards, or the tivo, or they just have their whole headend set terrible wrong.

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Old 10-13-2006, 07:45 AM   #42
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Below is the response form our technical department after the last email I sent. It sounds like they are aware of a lot of the issues and are working to make any necessary adjustments on our end to help:

Tracie,

Regarding the 90 minute self destruct complaints from customers, they are correct and I hope I have corrected the problem. I changed the CCI settings from (0x03) “copy never” to (0x02) “copy once” on several channels today. Sorry about taking so long to get back to you but, it took us quite awhile to verify this. Hopefully this will satisfy the problem with the TIVO series 3 customers. Could you check with some TIVO customers and see if this has helped and then get back to me.

This still doesn’t explain why some customers are having problems with OTA broadcasters. Apparently even though we don’t even encrypt the HD networks coming out of NYC, the broadcasters themselves are able to set a “broadcast flag” to prevent copying in customer devices. After browsing through the tivo community thread it seems there were several customers (in different parts of the county) complaining about the inability to record the first show of “Jericho”. This is what makes me think it is a broadcaster limitation. I will try and find out more about this problem with the OTA broadcasters, but I believe that is beyond our control as we just pass these signals through to the customer and our controls are set to (0x00) “copy freely”. Here are some links you may find interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcast_flag

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=319525


Let me know if this answers your questions/concerns. Also, he was asking if the adjustments he made helped the copy issue.

Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelK
trlyka-

thanks for gettign involved. I emailed JG and although I havne't heard back I think he had someone work on it - since it was partially fixed last night.

I learned alot more since my original post.

(I will preface this all with - "as best I understand")

Basically there are 4 possible CCI values for different restriction levels:

0x00 - do whatever you want (MUST be used for OTA- allowed for cable)
0x01 - copy no more (would be set by the tivo after copying a 0x02 below)
0x02- copy once (allowed for 'cable channels)
0x03- copy never (only allowed for PPV or VOD and causes content to self destruct in 90 mns)


Before last night many of the HD "cable" channels wer set to 0x03 (they are all listed above in the various posts but it's pretty much irrelevent now since they all seem fixed now). WHich was illegal. They changed all those to 0x02 so that was great.

MOST channels you guys have set to 0x02. WHich is totally fine for cable type channels. But apparently illegal for the rebroadcast locals. Even though though they fixed the 0x03's last night they still have the HD locals set to 0x02- that is not legal and they should correct it. Right now it's not a probelm for tivo- but if tivo gets MRV or TTG workign then it will be a big deal and there will be another uproar. ALso- I haven't checked the SD digital subchannels like weather plus and the like- but those probably need to be oxoo to be legal too.

Also- I havne't had time to go through each and every SD digital channel but you should tell them to double check those. (it takes forever with tivo to dig up the CCI on a particular channel so i just checked every HD and a few SD's) I happened to stumble along one channel 102 NikP is set to 0x01. That is not allowed for cable. They can only use 0x02 (or 0x00 for no restrictions). So there certainly could be others. That will absoultely make a mess for MRV/TTG. So they should probably check to make sure there are no other 0x01's- I only looked at maybe 10 sd channels and happened to see that one.

Incidently you might ask them why are they even setting everything to 0x02? If the content providers dont require it of you guys (and I doubt every single channel does) then you are just putting undue restirctions on your customers for no reason at all.

thanks agin for passing along my our concerns. You guys really are great how responsive you are.

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Old 10-13-2006, 04:10 PM   #43
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Tracie,

It does indeed look like the (0x03) "copy never" problem on at least some of the HD Plus channels has been fixed. I will try to spend some time over the next several days to check all the HD and digital channels for strange CCI settings.

Thank you very much for participating in this forum and for your assistance with this issue.
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Old 10-13-2006, 05:49 PM   #44
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tracie- you guys rock.

I verified last night that ALL the 0x03's were gone on all the HD channels.

I looked today and the 0x01 was corrected on that oddball nik channel and is now set to 0x02 which is legal. I'm guessing your engineers went though all the channels to check.

But can you ASK them to confirm the digital OTA broadcast channels are set to 0x0. As I am not seeing that on my end. On my box tHey all are 0x02. I checked all the HD network channels just now as well as some of the subchannels like WNETDT2 and NBC's weatherplus.

Also, if you can ask and they are allowed to answer- I'd like to reiterate- why are you guys setting everything to 0x02 anyway? If your contracts dont require it you are just putting unneccesary restrictions on your customers. One thing you could have your engineers lok into (maybe you guys are reading this now????) look into is cableric's post here:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...71#post4470271

bascially he says the latest version of the moto CAS system has a setting for externally defined such that your guys dont even need to set the flags themselves but can let the providers. Maybe they want to PM cableric and check with him, he seems very knowledgable and seems very open to help.


edit: I changed the above to refelct that I was seeing 0x02 on the broadcast channels. But it looks like others are seeing 0x00. So Patriot seems to be right on the ball on this.

Looks like the CCI values on the cablecard screens on the S3 dont necessarily reflect reality. See my post here:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...&&#post4482229

as long as it's working and recording as it should I figure let sleeping dogs lie. We'll see what happens if/when MRV gets enabled if there are any restrictions or not...

I really cant help but say that patriot really rocks compared to directv and sprint/embarq - have a problem like this with either of those numnuts and see how far you get. Patriot seems to step right up and do whatever they can whenever there are issues.


Last edited by MichaelK : 10-15-2006 at 05:39 PM.
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Old 10-15-2006, 07:34 PM   #45
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Well I'm seeing a new issue now. I recorded Firefly off UniversalHD tonight at 7pm ET, and when I press info in the show description it says:

Restrictions: Due to the policy set by the copyright holder, this recording: Cannot be transferred to VCR, DVD, or any other media device. To learn more visit www.tivo.com/copyprotection.

This is different from the message that the "copy never" 0x03 flag displays. I don't know what the CCI flag was during the recording, but because it says it cannot be transferred (copied) I'll guess that it was 0x01 (copy no more).

I've also seen this on shows from HDNET and TNTHD. But there are also shows from those channels that do not have this message.
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Old 10-15-2006, 08:41 PM   #46
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I am not positive- but i think that's a macrovision flag- i'm under the impression that the CCI just stops digital copies?

change to the channels now and see what the CCI is, just to be sure. I think a glitch might casue a failsafe 0x03 but to get a CCI of 0x01 they would need to manualy set that.

Could be just a specific show pushing that flag but that sounds odd.

But maybe- why dont you go ahead and add them to the list in http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...15#post4482615

and maybe some others are getting nailed on those shows on other providers and we can see if maybe it's the station sending that flag.
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Old 10-24-2006, 03:52 PM   #47
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Tracie,

Can you tell me if Patriot Media does analog-digital simulcasting (ADS) of the analog channels (2-99)? Meaning if a user just plugs the cable into their TV and tune channels 2-99 they get analog channels, but when a user with a digital cablebox tunes the cablebox to channels 2-99 they get a digital feed instead.

The reason I ask is that the CableCARDs are delivering analog channels for 2-99, and if digital versions of channels 2-99 are available, I'd like the CableCARDs to deliver those channels.
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Old 10-25-2006, 09:18 AM   #48
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i"m thinking they only have analog becasue the quality 1-99 on their own DVR are so bad compared to Tivo- that box must be encoding them itself at a really low bit rate. If they were digital that box would hopefully just record the digital stream and the quality would be better- equal to the 100-160's that are digital SD.

Just speculation though- would be nice to get an answer from someone who knows.
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Old 04-05-2007, 05:09 PM   #49
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prepare to assimilate-

resistance is futile...

http://www.multichannel.com/article/...=Breaking+News
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Old 04-05-2007, 06:00 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelK
prepare to assimilate-

resistance is futile...

http://www.multichannel.com/article/...=Breaking+News
Comcast isn't that bad. You won't get the "home town" level of support, but they take customer service very seriously. I had them for years before I moved to Cablevision Land. When I got an HD box from them the tech went out of his way to get the right cables to hook it up with my old Series 2 TiVo.

You might lose the HDNET channels though.
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Old 04-06-2007, 09:07 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbernste
Comcast isn't that bad. You won't get the "home town" level of support, but they take customer service very seriously. ....

thanks for the feedback.

On the one hand - I was hoping that being a dink would mean they wouldn't do switched video anytime soon and I beleive I've read that comcast will be by year end- so that bums me. On the other hand if my S3's get cripled I guess I'll have the option of the comcastivo to rent- we are a motorola system and I think that's the box tivo is ready to do?

What's interesting to me is
1) the home town service-
RCN owned the system and a guy bought it from them for 3,100/sub in 2002. One of the first things the guy says he did to specifically make people realize this was not the shoddy service of RCN was to stop the outsourced call center and to beef up their own call center- I beleive they have doubled the number of CSR employees in the 5 years by getting rid of the outsourced call center. Seems comcast has some giant call center in Jabib and it's a nightmare to get a local person to talk to.

2) RCN ran the system into the ground it was analog only with 1-way cable modems when the guy bought it. The locals mayors used to literally stand up at town meetings and in the papers and tell people not to use cable but to get SBS.

He outbid "att broadband" (part of the current comcast) by paying 3,100 a sub or $345 million. Then he invested 70 million to rebuld the system. And now it's a shining example of how good a cable system can be- it was voted cable system of the year or some such in 2006. They apparently have the highest broadband penetration rate in the US from major systems that report such things. They have a very high triple play penetration rate. He completely turned it around.

Now just 5 years later he is getting over 6k/sub - the third highest ever paid per sub. Doesn't that show the idiot goliath's that if you invest in the system to give people a great product and great service that you'll make tons more? Why didn't ATT/Comcast just buy it themselves in 2002 from RCN and invest the money to make it good and then they would have had it for much cheaper?
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Old 05-30-2007, 01:19 PM   #52
jbernardis
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I haven't seen much activity on this thread in a while. I live in the patmedia area, but have directv. I am strongly considering switching to patmedia since weaknees has their killer deal on the S3. Does patmedia have all of the bugs worked out. Seems like so since all has been quiet here.
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Old 05-30-2007, 05:57 PM   #53
MichaelK
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after the first few weeks when they corrected their CCI issues and Tivo updated the software it's been smooth sailing. ONCE- I had to reboot when the tivo didn't see the cabelcard channels (couldn't tell you if it was tivo's software or patriots cablecards that were the issue-but the reboot fixed it all up right away).

In fact I have them coming out Friday to give me another 2 cards for my second series3.

I couldn't be happier with patriots pricing, service, quality, or options. Triple play just kicks butt plain and simple.

FWI- if you didn't see in the local papers- comcast is in the process of acquiring patriot- so that's something to be aware of for the future (honestly not sure if that's good or bad)
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Old 05-30-2007, 06:27 PM   #54
jbernardis
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Thanks for the reply.

I actually ordered two S3's - but instead of weaknees, I got them from TCS - got a much better deal. I'm eager to get them to give directv the boot.

I knew about the comcast acquisition - not sure if it's good or bad.
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Old 05-30-2007, 06:56 PM   #55
MichaelK
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It's a lot of fun to tell directv to bite you.

I enjoyed it myself!
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Old 07-14-2007, 03:22 PM   #56
krybka
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How long did it take to get the cable cards from PatMedia?

I can't stand the DVR that PatMedia gave me. I also have 2 DirecTV SD TiVo's. I am trying to decide whether I should get a Series 3 TiVo and use PatMedia or upgrade my DirecTV to HD.

Recommendations?

Thanks,

Ken
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Old 07-15-2007, 04:40 PM   #57
jbernardis
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I got my cable cards in about 2 weeks. I have no experience with the patriot DVR, so I can't comment. I know I didn't want to go that route when I saw the minimal capacity that the unit would have. Also, the quality of the non-DVR boxes I got from them bore out this concern. In addition to the cable cards, I got a digital box and a high def box - both of them as big as tanks. The hi-def box doesn't even have an HDMI connector and the digital box doesn't even have an s-video output. I can't believe they're putting out such poor quality devices. If these are any indication, the DVR must be truly terrible.

Incidentally, I have 2 series 3's for a total of 4 cable cards. The technician brought 6 cable cards with him, and needed every on of them because two of them were bad. Make sure they bring some extras.
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Old 07-16-2007, 11:50 AM   #58
MichaelK
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i got my latest cable card install in 2 days after i called for an appt. it's hit or miss depending on when they can fit you in.

I had directv for like 6+ years before I went to patriot last year. I've been very happy with them. But Directv's new HD offering "coming soon" seems very compelling. I wonder what comcast is planning on doing. The one thing that really keeps me off directv though is the 2 year commitment- the way things are changing so much lately it's tough to commit to anyone for that long. With cable you can go and try it for a few months and if you want just walk away.

on their boxes- I had one of their HD Dvr's for a few weeks, I also have had one of their HD boxes (it's exactly the same as their dvr except it has no drive that's why it's so giant.) The dvr wasn't so pathetic but i couldn't live with the tiny drive in it. All their equipment is the same models but different versions- If they drop an SD box without an SD output you can ask for one with S-video. Earlier HD boxes had DVI and the newer come with HDMI- you just need to ask if they give you the wrong one. They are very friendly and responsive (at least until comcast comes in and fires all the csr's and assimilates patriot into their call centers 1,000 miles away....)

Also keep in mind that since comcast bought them at some point tivo software on the moto rental dvr's is an option- probably not till 2008 but eventually...
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Old 09-28-2007, 10:37 AM   #59
jbernardis
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Has anyone purchased any of the sports packages from Patriot Media. When I switched from Directv a couple of months ago I was assured that I could watch NHL Center Ice on my cablecard devices. Well I just asked the question again when I was actually ordering the package, and they told me I could not watch on my cablecard device because it's a "pay-per-view" package and cablecard is only one way.

Now I knew I would be unable to order with my remote, but I thought that I'd be able to watch a PPV program if I ordered it over the phone. Anybody have any experience with this?

Thanks
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Old 12-30-2007, 05:53 PM   #60
thomamon
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Just got my new HD Tivo and will be having the cards installed in about a week or two. Just curious tho, can I still order PPV's and use my WWE 24/7 with the TiVo box?
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