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Old 09-22-2006, 09:54 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djones18
if video programs are striped across both drives, do you loose your ability to play any striped video program if one of the drives fails?
In my company's case, no, but our DVRs are for a different type of application (not "end user" or consumer electronics). If one drive fails, I can still play back whatever video is still on the other drives.

In Tivo's case, assuming that they are doing this, I doubt it would be useful playing part of a TV show.
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Old 09-22-2006, 09:56 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrog
I use this device on my media computer to store my videos and music. I can't really afford to lose all that stuff as re-ripping my music collection alone would cost me money in the time it would take. http://www.sansdigital.com/MS2UT.htm
I was thinking more along the lines of this beast:



It is EXTREMELY loud though, and weighs a ton. I wouldn't put this thing in my living room. My basement, maybe. It also has three power supplies (with three seperate power cables) and you can feel the fans from 15 feet away.
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Old 09-22-2006, 10:03 AM   #63
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You guys are beating a dead horse that isn't even alive yet. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but please stop guessing if/when/how eSata will be implemented. You people are driving me crazy! You even made my avatar flip upside-down!

(Hey TiVo, please enable eSata for just my account. I won't tell anyone.)
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Old 09-22-2006, 10:04 AM   #64
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No such thing as too much, I suppose... I bet the MSRP on that is about 10-20 times more than on the two drive unit I was suggesting... then again, with that, the sky's the limit.
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Old 09-22-2006, 10:10 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco
You guys are beating a dead horse that isn't even alive yet. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but please stop guessing if/when/how eSata will be implemented. You people are driving me crazy! You even made my avatar flip upside-down!

(Hey TiVo, please enable eSata for just my account. I won't tell anyone.)
Beating a dead horse? We aren't even discussing when eSATA will be enabled anymore, it's become a raid discussion.
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Old 09-22-2006, 10:12 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrog
No such thing as too much, I suppose... I bet the MSRP on that is about 10-20 times more than on the two drive unit I was suggesting... then again, with that, the sky's the limit.
I'll just say, with drives, > $10K.
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Old 09-22-2006, 10:22 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco
You guys are beating a dead horse that isn't even alive yet. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but please stop guessing if/when/how eSata will be implemented. You people are driving me crazy! You even made my avatar flip upside-down!

(Hey TiVo, please enable eSata for just my account. I won't tell anyone.)
I don't think I was beating a dead horse at all. I was suggesting that you take the onboard sata port, and run a cable out the back or an opening elsewhere and connect that to an external raid array. Then you have external with RAID reliability, and expansion if you can afford it all. Then you never have to worry about data loss, and you can grow most of those systems if you need to.

And there's no heat build up or noise created by the internal SATA drive on the Tivo.

-jrog
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Old 09-22-2006, 10:57 AM   #68
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The internal and esata are going to have to be independent. You can't corrupt the file system because someone unplugs the esata while vacuuming.

I'd like to see the esata moveable to any S3 with the same MAK.
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Old 09-22-2006, 01:46 PM   #69
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Who are you, and what have you done with the real MediaLivingRoom?

I am at Stage 4 still.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=318065
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Old 09-22-2006, 01:55 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTiVo
The internal and esata are going to have to be independent. You can't corrupt the file system because someone unplugs the esata while vacuuming.
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Tivo must make the drives independent by not striping information across both drives, simply to prevent data loss if the eSATA is accidentally unplugged?

I do not know the structure of the Tivo drives, but I would think that the operating software and buffer are on seperate partitions to prevent that. Striping the information is more efficient, as I've stated in a previous post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTiVo
I'd like to see the esata moveable to any S3 with the same MAK.
Once MRV is enabled, I don't see how this would be useful to anyone but those using phone lines and those with Tivo's on the same account in different places, like two homes on opposite coasts.
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Old 09-22-2006, 01:55 PM   #71
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Set one of these bad boys up with a RAID 5 configuration for data redundancy:
http://fwdepot.com/thestore/product_...oducts_id/1248

I'd be really curious as to whether this configuration would even remotely work. Put 4 500GB drives in for an additional 1.5TB of space (abut 1/4 of total is used for the redundancy).
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Old 09-22-2006, 02:16 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fergiej
Set one of these bad boys up with a RAID 5 configuration for data redundancy:
http://fwdepot.com/thestore/product_...oducts_id/1248

I'd be really curious as to whether this configuration would even remotely work. Put 4 500GB drives in for an additional 1.5TB of space (abut 1/4 of total is used for the redundancy).
Nah, that thing has 4 separate esata connectors, one for each drive. The one that is a single connector is multilane, which is in effect 4 sata connections in one connector.

I *do* want to find such a beast that does the jbod/stripe and presents a single esata though.

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Old 09-22-2006, 02:20 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classicX
Striping the information is more efficient, as I've stated in a previous post.
I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing. "Striping" (RAID 0) means storing one file (large enough) on multiple drives in order to improve performance beyond what a single drive can deliver. If any drive dies, the whole system dies, unless you have redundancy in addition to striping.
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Old 09-22-2006, 02:21 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fergiej
Set one of these bad boys up with a RAID 5 configuration for data redundancy...

I'd be really curious as to whether this configuration would even remotely work. Put 4 500GB drives in for an additional 1.5TB of space (abut 1/4 of total is used for the redundancy).
That box won't work with the single eSATA port on S3 or the SA cable boxes.
It's basically an external multi-drive enclosure with a power supply, which isn't going to cut it.
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Old 09-22-2006, 02:24 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Bodshal
I *do* want to find such a beast that does the jbod/stripe and presents a single esata though.
http://www.lacie.com/products/range.htm?id=10033
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Old 09-22-2006, 02:25 PM   #76
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http://www.usbgear.com/SV-2RSA1.html
http://www.lacie.com/products/product.htm?pid=10038
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Old 09-22-2006, 02:29 PM   #77
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Cool. Thems will do nicely.

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Old 09-22-2006, 02:37 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c3
I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing. "Striping" (RAID 0) means storing one file (large enough) on multiple drives in order to improve performance beyond what a single drive can deliver. If any drive dies, the whole system dies, unless you have redundancy in addition to striping.
I was simply using the term in the sense that it was used by whoever used it first. I was not talking about R0, I simply meant breaking up the video into pieces, and storing those pieces on seperate drives - they could be on the same drive or different once, but all are seperate from the OS partition.
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Old 09-22-2006, 02:48 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classicX
I was simply using the term in the sense that it was used by whoever used it first. I was not talking about R0, I simply meant breaking up the video into pieces, and storing those pieces on seperate drives - they could be on the same drive or different once, but all are seperate from the OS partition.
TiVo OS and data are already on separate partitions (since day 1). However, if one drive dies, the whole system is dead. That's "acceptable" before S3 because all drives have been internal. With S3, TiVo has to be able to handle external disconnections gracefully.
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Old 09-22-2006, 02:52 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by classicX
I was thinking more along the lines of this beast:



It is EXTREMELY loud though, and weighs a ton. I wouldn't put this thing in my living room. My basement, maybe. It also has three power supplies (with three seperate power cables) and you can feel the fans from 15 feet away.
Ah nice, maxtronic raid chassis... also distributed under OEM by raidweb.

I have the 8 drive version of that, but it's outfitted with a ridiculously overpriced fibre channel connector... not much use with the S3 because of that, but great with my home file server
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Old 09-22-2006, 03:04 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by BobCamp1
I think this is the issue holding up Tivo from releasing eSATA. They don't want an entire HD show stored on the external drive. I think they have to ensure that each show using the external drive is significantly striped across both drives. However, if you stripe all the shows across both drives, then when the external drive is unpluged ALL the shows are gone.

BobCamp,

You may very well be right. Do you know for sure TIVO "don't want an entire HD show stored on the external drive" and they intend shows to be striped across both drives? I didn't think those sort of details had been released yet on TIVO's eSATA implementation plan.

I still don't believe TIVO's eSATA implementation is gonna allow some rogue third party external drive to crash their system and vaporize the stored library when it is unwittingly unplugged for any number of smart or dumb reasons.

As to this thread being a dead-horse beater, I'm finding the discussion interesting and I may even be learning something,

Thrash that horse!

Cheers

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Old 09-22-2006, 03:30 PM   #82
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For reference, the SA 8300HD stores a recording on whichever drive (internal or eSATA) has the most space left. If the system is near full this can result in starting on one drive and ending on another (indicated as two separate recordings on the listing). In one case it actually started two shows on one drive and finished both shows on the other drive (4 separate recordings.
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Old 09-22-2006, 07:37 PM   #83
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I like the idea of extending the internal SATA port to an external single lane ESATA device (2 drive RAID is the most I have seen, anything bigger?). So, I connect both the original drive and the RAID to my PC and do whatever upgrade process I would do as if I were replacing the original internal drive with a larger one. Then plug the 1.5 terrabyte RAID into the internal SATA. :-)

Things are slightly complicated by the fact that the ESATA connector has a slightly different form factor. But someone was thinking about us: SATA to ESATA cable. The one remaining problem is that most of these external RAID enclosures are designed with no concern for noise so most would be inappropriate for DVR use.
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Old 09-22-2006, 08:02 PM   #84
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2 drive RAID is the most I have seen, anything bigger?
see above
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Old 09-22-2006, 08:10 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by classicX
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Tivo must make the drives independent by not striping information across both drives, simply to prevent data loss if the eSATA is accidentally unplugged?

I do not know the structure of the Tivo drives, but I would think that the operating software and buffer are on seperate partitions to prevent that. Striping the information is more efficient, as I've stated in a previous post.



Once MRV is enabled, I don't see how this would be useful to anyone but those using phone lines and those with Tivo's on the same account in different places, like two homes on opposite coasts.
The data loss issue is the opposite of trivial; it is paramount.

The OS and Buffer have to be on the internal drive alone, they can not be disconnected.

Efficiency is irrelevant. The drives have far more read/write capacity than necessary for the jobs. Adding striping or RAID Anything to the file system would be an enormous job in itself without any real world benefit.

Moving the esata to another device without losing data makes sense for any number of reasons, including changing units or upgrading, and reasons we won't think of for some time. To lose the data would be foolish and a waste.
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Old 09-22-2006, 08:38 PM   #86
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Not the SV-2RSA1. That is RAID 1 only. We need Raid 0 or concatenation.
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Old 09-22-2006, 08:48 PM   #87
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see above
OK, then the LaCie Biggest S1S seems like the best candidate so far (as long as the lack of mention of Linux anywhere in their documentation is simply because they don't want the hassle of supporting it). It has all the essential features: hardware based (no device driver required) and single lane cable connnection.

Last edited by jlib : 09-22-2006 at 09:39 PM.
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Old 09-22-2006, 09:37 PM   #88
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Who the heck is the MegaZone guy?
Unfortunately, no one can be told who the MegaZone is. You have to read it for yourself.
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Old 09-22-2006, 11:05 PM   #89
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Guys I hope the file system is not a RAID0 or even JBOD especially across the ESATA port. first off if it is RAID0 you will have the problem of different drive sizes I will use 500G drives for the ease of the math.

250G internal + 500G external in RAID0 = 500G of space you loose 250G but you get a performance boost.
250G internal + 500G external in JBOD = 750G no lost space but you cant separate the drives and no performance boost.
250G internal + 500G external in RAID1 = 250G you get protection but you loose 500g of space and no performance boost.

The consumer friendly way to arrange it would be to arrange them as master and slave drives with separate drive letters especially if you can decide which drive you want to store the program to. This is also where a free drivespace bargraph would come in handy. this configuration would nive a performance boost either. the really consumer friendly way would be the ability to connect an external raid aray to the ESATA port especially if you could drag and drop files from the internal to the external thereby keeping the internal drive clean.

The most interesting idea I have heard in this thread is running the internal SATA cable outside the box to an external drive array that looks like one drive. Personally I would love to configure a RAID5 since that is where you loose the least ammount of phyisical drive space while still getting protection from data loss. RAID5 can be accomplished with as few as 3 physical drives up to 32 drives I believe. Supposing equal size drives add all the drives together and subtract one. another option would be RAID0+1 but that requires at least 4 physical drives and isn't the most efficient use of space.

Again I will use 500G for ease of math

4X500G drives in a RAID0+1=1TB you end up loosing 1TB
3X500G drives in a RAID5=1.0TB you end up loosing 500g
4X500G drives in a RAID5=1.5TB you end up loosing 500g
5X500G drives in a RAID5=2.0TB you end up loosing 500g
etc etc...

As you see the more drives you add to a RAID5 the more efficient it gets.

To learn more about the different levels of RAID go here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redunda...ependent_disks

Oh...just incase anyone is scratching their heads gecause us geeks keep saying JBOD it stands for
J ust a
B unch
O f
D iscs

Its not used much anymore but, back in the days of 1GIG drives and earlier, having 5 physical drives connected together as one C:\ drive came in handy sometimes.
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Old 09-22-2006, 11:39 PM   #90
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I think you'd want to do it so that all the file system's metadata remains on the internal drive, but a file's data allocation may be from the secondary drive (even the allocation map for the secondary drive would be on the primary. The TiVo could still manage the files if the drive was disconnected, just not be able to play the data.
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