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Old 09-17-2006, 06:08 PM   #1
MediaLivingRoom
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Big Grin TiVoPony, What about ESATA, in an interview you said ESATA was coming....

Pony,

What about ESATA, in an interview you said ESATA was coming....http://www.gearlive.com/videocast/ge...ivoseries3.mp4

Can you give us a time frame on this feature and tell us what happened? Was there a software/programming issue? or was it related to CableLabs??

Can you please tell us?


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Old 09-17-2006, 06:40 PM   #2
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You're Soooo bad!
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Old 09-17-2006, 07:18 PM   #3
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It's coming in November.

BTW, link is bad.
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Old 09-17-2006, 07:19 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bierboy
It's coming in November.

BTW, link is bad.

Will it be arriving on the same truck as my S3?
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Old 09-17-2006, 07:21 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canoehead
Will it be arriving on the same truck as my S3?
It will if you get your S3 in November.
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Old 09-17-2006, 07:49 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MediaLivingRoom
Pony,

What about ESATA, in an interview you said ESATA was coming....http://www.gearlive.com/videocast/g...tivoseries3.mp4

Can you give us a time frame on this feature and tell us what happened? Was there a software/programming issue? or was it related to CableLabs??

Can you please tell us?

Some details on the implementation would also be nice.... Like... 1) will recordings be distributed between the two drives or will a single show be confined to a single drive. 2) Can you remove a drive and then replace it at a late date and be able to view the content. 3) Can you build a 'library' of shows on multiple drives and switch back and forth. 4) if an external drive fails do you lose everything (even the stuff on the good drive).

Thanks...
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Old 09-17-2006, 08:25 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCSIRAID
Some details on the implementation would also be nice.... Like... 1) will recordings be distributed between the two drives or will a single show be confined to a single drive. 2) Can you remove a drive and then replace it at a late date and be able to view the content. 3) Can you build a 'library' of shows on multiple drives and switch back and forth. 4) if an external drive fails do you lose everything (even the stuff on the good drive).

Thanks...
My expectations:

Yes, Maybe, No, No.
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Old 09-17-2006, 08:31 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCSIRAID
Some details on the implementation would also be nice.... Like... 1) will recordings be distributed between the two drives or will a single show be confined to a single drive. 2) Can you remove a drive and then replace it at a late date and be able to view the content. 3) Can you build a 'library' of shows on multiple drives and switch back and forth. 4) if an external drive fails do you lose everything (even the stuff on the good drive).

Thanks...
From what Pony said at the TC-Con in Vegas, if I remember correctly

1. No way to tell.
2. No. You cannot remove a drive and then replace it. It's "married" to the unit, I believe
3. No
4. Did not address this question.

In addition I believe this is an extension of the MFS file system Tivo has developed, not a normal Linux file system. MFS gets very unhappy when the disks on 2 disk systems are divorced, and I would think this would also be the case.
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Old 09-17-2006, 08:49 PM   #9
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Second half!

BTW, is that video link not supposed to work? If so, it's working as intended.
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Old 09-17-2006, 09:19 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregor
In addition I believe this is an extension of the MFS file system Tivo has developed, not a normal Linux file system. MFS gets very unhappy when the disks on 2 disk systems are divorced, and I would think this would also be the case.
This is pretty poor if that is indeed the case.

If you look at the S3 hardware, we have a MTBF of X hours. If the hardware fails, you go through your normal warranty channels to get the issues addressed to your satisfaction, or if you are out of warranty you go out and buy a new TiVo, rebuild it, etc.

With an ESATA disk, the consumer can buy a second piece of hardware which has MTBF of Y, and can fail independently of the S3 hardware.

I can be 8 months into an S3 ownership, and 1 month into an ESATA disk ownership and if the external disk goes, it would be really poor design if my S3 also becomes unusable.

Hardware will always fail; however, the failure of an accessory should not render the entire system useless. Here's to hoping TiVo manages the relationship between the external disk and the parent hardware properly.
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Old 09-17-2006, 09:28 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alee
This is pretty poor if that is indeed the case.

If you look at the S3 hardware, we have a MTBF of X hours. If the hardware fails, you go through your normal warranty channels to get the issues addressed to your satisfaction, or if you are out of warranty you go out and buy a new TiVo, rebuild it, etc.

With an ESATA disk, the consumer can buy a second piece of hardware which has MTBF of Y, and can fail independently of the S3 hardware.

I can be 8 months into an S3 ownership, and 1 month into an ESATA disk ownership and if the external disk goes, it would be really poor design if my S3 also becomes unusable.

Hardware will always fail; however, the failure of an accessory should not render the entire system useless. Here's to hoping TiVo manages the relationship between the external disk and the parent hardware properly.
Note that these are my thoughts, I don't speak for Tivo.

This scenario is nothing new, it happens now with two drive Tivos, perhaps Tivo is working on this problem...

edited to clarify.
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Old 09-17-2006, 09:37 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregor
Note that these are my thoughts, I don't speak for Tivo.
Noted... I won't shoot the messenger.

I'm still dreaming of the day when TiVos become NAS or SAN aware, and all you buy from TiVo is a smart "head". All your shows are centrally stored and served from your storage array, and heads can punt recording jobs to each other if they're busy recording something else.

(in my dreams)
User requests to record a show
Living room head: I'm busy, tuner 1 and tuner 2 are recording
Network broadcast... who's not doing anything?
Bedroom head responds... I'm not recording anything right now
Living room head passes job to bedroom head
Show gets stored to centralized storage to be accessed from either head
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Old 09-17-2006, 09:44 PM   #13
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I would love to see cooperative scheduling, a "thin" client at the TV and a big media storehouse in the basement.

However, media companies hate the idea of consumers storing large quantities of their content in a private cache.
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Old 09-17-2006, 10:24 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bierboy
It will if you get your S3 in November.
Well at this rate maybe I will. Sure as hell don't know if I'll be getting it this week or when - CSR can't tell, should get an email in the next few days....
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Old 09-18-2006, 01:20 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregor
I would love to see cooperative scheduling, a "thin" client at the TV and a big media storehouse in the basement.

However, media companies hate the idea of consumers storing large quantities of their content in a private cache.
I am going to pre-complain about the price of this right now!!!

-smak-
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Old 09-18-2006, 02:29 AM   #16
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I run Gear Live. Here is the true link, with MP4 and H.264 versions of the video:

http://www.gearlive.com/index.php/ne...ok-0108051437/

Also, if you want to see more of our cool video stuff, head to http://www.bleedingedgetv.com
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Old 09-18-2006, 10:13 PM   #17
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bump. whats the deal with e-sata yo?
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Old 09-18-2006, 10:43 PM   #18
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Who knows about the drive configurations?

I am just curious about the drive configurations in the S2 as well as the S3.
If an S2 has two drives how are they configured? Are they a RAID0 or are they JBOD or separate drives?
Can an S3 have two drives internally and if so are they RAID0 or JBODor separate drives?
When the ESATA connection is enabled will an external drive configure itself as RAID0, JBOD or as another hard drive?
Lastly, do you think it will be possible to attatch an external RAID5 enclosure with say perhaps five 500GB SATA drives within the enclosure? (That would give you a really cool 2Terrabyte hot swapable backup with parity.)
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Old 09-18-2006, 11:50 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MediaLivingRoom
Can you give us a time frame on this feature and tell us what happened? Was there a software/programming issue? or was it related to CableLabs??
I cant imagine its a cable labs issue. My SA 8300 provided by Cox can use a SATA external hard drive. Hopefully they just have a few flaws to work out.
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Old 09-19-2006, 06:11 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boywaja
I cant imagine its a cable labs issue. My SA 8300 provided by Cox can use a SATA external hard drive. Hopefully they just have a few flaws to work out.
The SA8300 doesn't use a cablecard.
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Old 09-19-2006, 07:29 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vman41
The SA8300 doesn't use a cablecard.
It has a digitial decoder built in - which is what the Cable Card does (or what it unlocks, depending how you look at it). If an ESATA drive can "safely" (from a DRM perspective) be married to a CableCo DVR, then it can work with an S3.
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Old 09-19-2006, 07:48 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alee
Hardware will always fail; however, the failure of an accessory should not render the entire system useless. Here's to hoping TiVo manages the relationship between the external disk and the parent hardware properly.
I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head as to why ESATA support wasn't included at the time of release. The 'E' part makes it much more complex than just adding a second drive to a unit. I'm willing to bet they want ESATA to be as simple to use and user friendly as the rest of the whole unit, which means cleanly handling drive failures, unexpected disconnects, etc. They've got a lot of work on their hands to support all that.
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Old 09-19-2006, 10:45 AM   #23
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answer almost there

BAP your reply almost answered my questions.

I just want to know so I will know how they will behave and what kinds of backup plans I need to instate.
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Old 09-19-2006, 12:04 PM   #24
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esata in november? is november also when every single cablecard 1.0 self destructs? har harrrrrrgggh.
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Old 09-19-2006, 01:19 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boywaja
I cant imagine its a cable labs issue. My SA 8300 provided by Cox can use a SATA external hard drive. Hopefully they just have a few flaws to work out.
Ever had power fail with that external drive? SA8300 recovers by reformating the external drive. Not the best way to recover.

Think there is any chance TIVO will support a SATA hub such as this one at sataport,com

That could easily give you a couple of TBytes.
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Old 09-19-2006, 04:15 PM   #26
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Take a deep breath and relax....
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Old 09-19-2006, 04:29 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herfmonster
If an S2 has two drives how are they configured? Are they a RAID0 or are they JBOD or separate drives?
Can an S3 have two drives internally and if so are they RAID0 or JBODor separate drives?
The S3 only has one sata port on the motherboard. So, I assume, it can only have one internal drive.
http://www.tivolovers.com.nyud.net:8.../Inside-16.jpg

A 2 drive S2 is not RAID anything. They are just Master & Slave on PATA connector, but married by the filesystem(?). One fails, you loose everything.
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Old 09-19-2006, 04:35 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryInPhoenix
Ever had power fail with that external drive? SA8300 recovers by reformating the external drive. Not the best way to recover.

Think there is any chance TIVO will support a SATA hub such as this one at sataport,com

That could easily give you a couple of TBytes.
Not convinced it will, since that unit I think presents mutiple drives on different device ID's. Would need support in the TiVo software, which I doubt they'll do.

If you find a unit that will stripe/jbod/raid multiple drives and that presents the array as a single SATA device, that would be uber cool. I've not really looked, yet, though.

Chris.
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Old 09-19-2006, 04:36 PM   #29
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eSATA implementation

I've had an eSATA (SATA II) external drive connected to my Cableco SA8300HD DVR for several months. Cablecos don't readily admit their boxes support this. The boxes must contain compatible sofware versions which the customer can readily figure out. I can understand why TIVO wants to work out the kinks. Even with the right software, many have been trying to connect these drives to Cableco HD/DVRs for several months with mixed results.

Among the problems are incompatability with certain brands and models of SATA hard drives, external cases and eSATA cables, drive size limitations, varying degrees of pixelation and picture degradation which didn't exist before the external drive was connected, total crashes to the Cableco box when the drive was connected, and on, and on.

I've been lucky. The external drive was recognized immediately but it had to be connected, powered on, and the DVR powered on in a specific sequence to be recognized. The drive was formatted by the DVR and locked to it for encryption purposes. Programs are then recorded to the drive with the most space remaining (some say to balance the system).

If the external drive is removed or turned off, it retains program data. The DVR simply reverts to the internal drive for recording and playback. Once plugged back in, in the correct sequence, the external drive is recognized by its host DVR as if it had not been dis-connected. However, if the eSATA external drive is connected to another DVR or to a computer, its contents will be reformatted and lost. Don't know of anyone who has been able to defeat this so far.

As I said earlier, this has not been a simple plug-and-play experience for many folks. Hopefully, TIVO will review the lessons from users of Cableco HD/DVRs and apply them to ensure implementation is hiccup free.

Cheers.
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Old 09-19-2006, 04:38 PM   #30
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herfmonster

why just use 500gb hard drives? why not go for the 750gb hard drives from Seagate.
That way you could have 3 Terabytes not just 2

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