Why I'm not buying a Series 3

DoubleTap · 09-14-2006, 10:42 AM

Hey all,
I've been a long time member, mostly reading and learning from the folks on this great forum, but I feel very strongly about this and need to let the folks here and at Tivo who read this that there is a problem.

Also, please note. I am a huge fan of Tivo. I own three Tivos, standalone and DTV. I also called DirecTV numerous times after their decision to drop Tivo and ultimately canceled my DirecTV service in protest.

I have no problem with the $800 price of the new hardware. I understand that prices of new advanced hardware are initially high and Tivo has to recoup their development costs.

But here is why I'm not going to buy a Series 3

1) Ending of lifetime subscriptions - no need for explanation

2) The so-called 'Transfer a lifetime subscription' we're offered as valued customers. -This is ridiculous. So we already payed for a lifetime service subscription and we now have to pay $200 to terminate the liftime subscription we already payed for to get a new lifetime subscription that was $300 earlier this year?

And thanks for the Free year of service on my old hardware, so when I move that to another room, I can go back to monthly service and in the end still end up paying the monthly fee.

Even if I had a broken S1 that was on fire, I wouldn't transfer the service.

MythTV here I come!

tunnelengineer · 09-14-2006, 10:46 AM

wow, i see you are not happy unless Tivo lets you transfer the service for free. Am I missing something???

Let us know how that MythTV unit works with the cable HD channels........

jones07 · 09-14-2006, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunnelengineer

Let us know how that MythTV unit works with the cable HD channels........

No that wasn't nice

jones07 · 09-14-2006, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoubleTap

MythTV here I come!

You may wish to look at Sagetv and about $600-800 worth of hardware mods to record dish or D* HD channels.......... Not cheap, but workable

http://www.nextcomwireless.com/r5000/products.htm

DoubleTap · 09-14-2006, 10:54 AM

You know, I'm not sure I would even if I could transfer for free, because I wouldn't want to trash a perfectly good S2 for one of the non HD sets in my house.

Most houses have more than one TV, and if they have an HDTV, they probably have another tv that WAS in the living room before they got their HDTV. So their gonna want to have Tivo on both sets. All Tivo is offering is to pay the bill on a different set AFTER you've shelled out the 200 bucks.

tunnelengineer · 09-14-2006, 10:59 AM

sounds like you are a happy customer then....

DoubleTap · 09-14-2006, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunnelengineer

sounds like you are a happy customer then....

Like I said, I love my Tivos and I love the technology, but I'll be looking elsewhere for my next HD DVR unless Tivo changes their tune.

tazzftw · 09-14-2006, 11:04 AM

Let's think about this for a second. You're S1 is "broken". It's no longer usable.

Now, under the old lifetime service terms, the lifetime only lasts for the life of the unit. If you wanted lifetime on a different unit, you'd have to pay $299 for it, since they mostly don't transfer.

Now today, you can transfer the lifetime over to a new unit for even less than that, only $199!

So I can see your point for most of it, but your last sarcastic point shows just how great of an offer this is.

owned

DoubleTap · 09-14-2006, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tazzftw

Now today, you can transfer the lifetime over to a new unit for even less than that, only $199!

So I can see your point for most of it, but your last sarcastic point shows just how great of an offer this is.

owned

It's the principal of it. Even if I had a beat up S1. "Transferring" the service for the same price as it cost?

Granzella · 09-14-2006, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoubleTap

You know, I'm not sure I would even if I could transfer for free, because I wouldn't want to trash a perfectly good S2 for one of the non HD sets in my house.

Most houses have more than one TV, and if they have an HDTV, they probably have another tv that WAS in the living room before they got their HDTV. So their gonna want to have Tivo on both sets. All Tivo is offering is to pay the bill on a different set AFTER you've shelled out the 200 bucks.

Then dont transfer your S2 to a S3. Pay 6.95 a month on a S3.

tazzftw · 09-14-2006, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoubleTap

It's the principal of it. Even if I had a beat up S1. "Transferring" the service for the same price as it cost?

Less than that. You wanted lifetime service, and in that situation, you'd pay $100 less than what you'd have a year ago. Screw principle, that's a damn good deal.

DoubleTap · 09-14-2006, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Granzella

Then dont transfer your S2 to a S3. Pay 6.95 a month on a S3.

Good point.

As someone who's been following this since the demo at CES, I've had 3 ways to improve my situation with the S3

- Could've bought a liftime subscription 'future' gift card
- Transfer a clunker
- Use my existing liftime subscription for the discount

In the end I'm still left with the same feeling.

BLeonard · 09-14-2006, 11:20 AM

I've had three Series 1 Tivos since late 1999 and early 2000. All have lifetime service.

The main reason I probably won't take advantage of this offer is that when I moved to a large screen High-Def TV I need to go with a Bright House Cable DVR. While it lacks a lot of what attracted me to Tivo, it does the job at a pretty low cost.

A Series 3 Tivo would mean spending $800 plus another $200 to transfer one of my lifetimes and the hassle of messing with all those cables and moving around complicated components not to mention reprogramming my universal remote. It's just not worth it.

Had it come out a year ago I probably would have been a customer.

terryfoster · 09-14-2006, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLeonard

I've had three Series 1 Tivos since late 1999 and early 2000. All have lifetime service. .... A Series 3 Tivo would mean spending $800 plus another $200 to transfer one of my lifetimes and the hassle of messing with all those cables and moving around complicated components not to mention reprogramming my universal remote. It's just not worth it.

From what you have just said you might qualify for the Grandfather clause on some of your S1s. I am of the understanding that if you do qualify you don't have to pay to transfer the lifetime service.

Secondly, get a different universal remote if reprogramming it keeps you from switching around your configuration. My Harmony remote does the programing for me once I tell it I have a new component.

n0pa · 09-14-2006, 11:56 AM

$115.6 ($199 - ($6.95*12)) is what I see the lifetime transfer costing. The way I see it, it's a chance to put some value in my S3 instead having my S2, that I no longer plan to use, keeping that valuable service. I am sure you could sell your old S2 on eBay to someone who want to try Tivo for about $155 ($12.95 * 12) (The cost of a 1 year full price subscription). Then it only cost you $44 for a lifetime transfer.

So with very little work on eBay (I would use "Buy it Now") you could pay on $44 (or about 6.3 months of discounted service (about 3 month of full price service) for the lifetime transfer. Now who is planning on keeping their $800 Tivo for less then a year? Let’s not forget what you have, a Tivo S3 with Lifetime. Who knows what that will go for on eBay?

Of course I take the expensive approach. I am planning on giving mine to my brother for the year and introducing him to the Tivo lifestyle.

MickeS · 09-14-2006, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoubleTap

It's the principal of it. Even if I had a beat up S1. "Transferring" the service for the same price as it cost?

You could also see it in that case as just buying lifetime for your S3 - at a price which is $100 LESS than lifetime has been for the past 3 years. And remember, lifetime is no longer available.

I am not buying a Series 3 either, but for different reasons. The price is fine with me, and the lifetime transfer is a decent deal, as is the monthly $6.95 if I so choose.

I was all set to order one right away, but the lack of TTG and "Come back", which I use all the time and for me is one of the main selling points for the S3, has made me reconsider. I was hoping to be able to use it to view Hi-Def movies that I have downloaded, but that can't be done.

The reason I have decided to wait is that these things were not left out because of a delay or similar, that TiVo can fix in a future release. If that had been the case, I would have bought it.

But since they are left out because of the CableLabs certification, I am extremely hesitant to spend my money on it right now. The future of it is not in TiVos hands, so who knows if they will ever be allowed to do these things?

I would love to see something positive about this before 12/31/06 so I could use the LT transfer option, but I really doubt it...

DoubleTap · 09-14-2006, 12:33 PM

You know,

Fundamentally, I think that I just don't feel that TV listings qualifies as a service to me and I can't justify paying for them for the rest of my life unless they are basically zero. I justified the purchase with the lifetime subscription as an add-on to the product cost.

A DVR is a product, not a service. Maybe if Tivo had some content that came with the price I could justify it.

Once again, awesome technology. But I think the Tivo business model is flawed and they should've followed apples lead with the ipod. How many people would've bought Ipods if there was a monthly fee tied to the product?

Ipod
Multiple hardware price points, so you can get what you can afford.
-Shuffle
-Nano
-Video, (two HD sizes)

Cool download service
-no monthly fee
-pay as you play

Apple is raking it in with these. It's only a matter of time before they have a full fledged settop box and I'm sure they'll follow the same mode. They'll probably have a single tuner HD box for like $300. Meanwhile, the Cadillac Tivo will only be competing with the top end apple stuff.

MickeS · 09-14-2006, 12:43 PM

Ah, the old "Apple will have a DVR" fantasy again.

DoubleTap · 09-14-2006, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MickeS

Ah, the old "Apple will have a DVR" fantasy again.

Sooner than later I think

http://www.engadget.com/2006/09/12/h...itv-prototype/

eisenb11 · 09-14-2006, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoubleTap

It's the principal of it. Even if I had a beat up S1. "Transferring" the service for the same price as it cost?

I don't think you get it. Lifetime service is not transferrable anyways.

For the sake of argument, pretend you can still buy lifetime service.

So if you have a S1 w lifetime and buy a S2, you have to buy another lifetime service, even if you trash the old S1.

So if you have a S1 w lifetime and buy a S3, you have to buy another lifetime for the S3... see?

Now, we all know that the lifetime no longer exists. So all Tivo is saying is that if you had bought a previous lifetime on a S1/S2, they'll let you buy a lifetime on the S3... if you trash the lifetime on the original machine.

One way or another you'd have to buy a lifetime for the S3. There's no freebie transfer and there never was a freebie transfer for any unit unless it was an internal repair job.

There's nothing wrong with this deal... Tivo is doing us a favor, they're not obliged to do this.

jfh3 · 09-14-2006, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoubleTap

But I think the Tivo business model is flawed and they should've followed apples lead with the ipod.

Yeah, that worked out so well for Replay ...

Tivo is much more than a guide. If it were so simple, all the other DVRs would do the same thing and just as reliably. They don't. The Tivo service is value add over the DVR hardware.

jfh3 · 09-14-2006, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoubleTap

Sooner than later I think

http://www.engadget.com/2006/09/12/h...itv-prototype/

Look again.

No DVR. Nothing more than a media extender, and overpriced at that.

n0pa · 09-14-2006, 01:37 PM

Ahh yes. You forget to notice that the iTv needs a computer backend, so the $299 price they are touting is just for the lame set top box. Also, to stream HD video you are going to need 802.11n, Notice that in the presentation no reference to a, b, or g was given when they said 802.11. If they were going to do anything similar to a DVR it would be putting a TV tuner in the Mac mini ($599, and that the low end) and the iTV ($299), so it $998, just like the S3 with Lifetime transfer, and that doesn't include the 802.11n router you will need, another $100.

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/Hom...360E60694.html

MickeS · 09-14-2006, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoubleTap

Sooner than later I think

http://www.engadget.com/2006/09/12/h...itv-prototype/

As others have pointed out, this has nothing in common with a DVR other than that they both hook up to a TV.

DoubleTap · 09-14-2006, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MickeS

As others have pointed out, this has nothing in common with a DVR other than that they both hook up to a TV.

Like I said above, it's only a matter of time before they have a full-fledged set top box. And Apple is much further ahead of Tivo with the hard part, the digital rights management.

MickeS · 09-14-2006, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoubleTap

Like I said above, it's only a matter of time before they have a full-fledged set top box. And Apple is much further ahead of Tivo with the hard part, the digital rights management.

Can you tell me why they would want to make it easier for people to not buy their content?

DoubleTap · 09-14-2006, 02:07 PM

BTW, My intent was not for thi to be a "problems with tivo" thread. I'm still a fan!

Gregor · 09-14-2006, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoubleTap

Like I said above, it's only a matter of time before they have a full-fledged set top box. And Apple is much further ahead of Tivo with the hard part, the digital rights management.

All Apple has done is get DRM on a very limited set of content, ie what they sell. The road Tivo is hauling is getting DRM on anything it can record.

Totally different, imho.

DoubleTap · 09-14-2006, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor

All Apple has done is get DRM on a very limited set of content, ie what they sell. The road Tivo is hauling is getting DRM on anything it can record.

Totally different, imho.

The thing is that apple sells content. And their hardware can handle the standard media. So far Tivo has not been able to figure out how to sell anything but movie tickets and TV listings.

How different is podcasting from recording your favorite show? I think apple gets the idea.

eisenb11 · 09-14-2006, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoubleTap

Like I said above, it's only a matter of time before they have a full-fledged set top box. And Apple is much further ahead of Tivo with the hard part, the digital rights management.

This is not correct.

You can't appease CableLabs by just tossing DRM on a video signal, it's much more complicated than that.

First you need to be HDCP compliant. That means you video in has to be compliant, your video out needs to be compliant. It also means that if you're using analog outs they have to downrez or shut-off if specified by HDCP content.

On top of that, the digital data stream must not be able to be intercepted in an unencypted form. That means the data has to be protected even as it moved through the motherboard's bus and through various components.

Apple is nowhere near having the hard stuff done. There is not a single Apple component that supports HDCP copy protection.

So, in that sense, Apple has nothing done. They need:

1. Major revisions to the OS (this stuff is a huge deal with Windows Vista which people complain is going to be DRM'ed to hell)

2. New peripheral cards. You'll need HDCP compliant video input cards, sound cards, and video cards.

3. New motherboards... gotta support the crazy DRM features associated with HDCP.

4. Cablecard support... have fun dealing with CableLabs

So, in short, no... Apple *does not* have the hard part done.

An HD DVR isn't just about slapping iTunes FairPlay DRM onto stuff... it's all about new hardware, OS support, and some certifications that are very very hard to get.