TiVo Community
TiVo Community
TiVo Community
Go Back   TiVo Community > Underground Playground > TiVo Upgrade Center
TiVo Community
Reply
Forum Jump
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-14-2006, 08:14 AM   #1
Anametrix
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 44
Series 3 Upgrade

I'm going to give this a try, but have a couple of questions:

What size swap file do I need to create on a 750GB upgrade drive? I've upgraded my other TiVos with 250GB drives using the following command:

mfsrestore -s 127 -r 4 -zxpi /mnt/backupimage.bak /dev/hda

I know I'll need to increase the 127 swap size, I was hoping someone knew what size that would need to be?

Also is there anything else I need to do to support a 750GB drive different to what I've done in the past with the 250GB drive?

Many thanks in advance for any advice anyone can offer!
Anametrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2006, 08:43 AM   #2
cch108
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 12
I'm no expert, but my understanding is the swap file would have to be 375 MB and then you have to run the tpip command to utilize it.
cch108 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2006, 09:58 AM   #3
Anametrix
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 44
Actually, also looks like the only drive that can be used is a SATA WD drive, the connector on the S3 is a propriatary WD connector...
Anametrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2006, 11:01 AM   #4
cch108
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 12
Weaknees is selling 750 Gb drives for $599.
cch108 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2006, 02:06 PM   #5
griboyedov
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3
The proprietary cable is WD SecureConnect. While it won't work with other manufacturers' hard drives, that cable can easily be replaced with a vanilla SATA cable.

I'm planning on installing a 750GB Seagate as soon as I get my S3 tomorrow.
griboyedov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2006, 02:28 PM   #6
Anametrix
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 44
I'm not sure it can be replaced with a vanilla cable, I think the power cable is soldered on the TiVo board side...
Anametrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2006, 03:10 PM   #7
tivoupgrade
Sponsor
 
tivoupgrade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Posts: 2,494
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anametrix
I'm going to give this a try, but have a couple of questions:

What size swap file do I need to create on a 750GB upgrade drive? I've upgraded my other TiVos with 250GB drives using the following command:

mfsrestore -s 127 -r 4 -zxpi /mnt/backupimage.bak /dev/hda

I know I'll need to increase the 127 swap size, I was hoping someone knew what size that would need to be?

Also is there anything else I need to do to support a 750GB drive different to what I've done in the past with the 250GB drive?

Many thanks in advance for any advice anyone can offer!
You don't need to (nor do we recommend) increasing the swap size. It will not benefit your performance in the least. The only harm in increasing the swap size is that if you do not initialize it correctly, using tpip, you may end up with no swap at all. And that is a bad thing.

I don't want to start a flame war of the benefits of increased swap vs the non-benefits of not-increased swap, however I can tell you with confidence, after having played with it for over 5 years and observed the effects of large drives in the field with increased and non-increased swap, there is truly no benefit to it, from what I have seen and experienced.

I respect the fact that some folks like to increase their swap and feel that there is a benefit to it - but I take issue with the misnomer that it is something you MUST do. It just isn't the case...
__________________




To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



tivoupgrade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2006, 03:12 PM   #8
ahaley42
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 83
Anyone tried this yet? Looking to do mine today.
ahaley42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2006, 07:05 PM   #9
puffdaddy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by tivoupgrade
however I can tell you with confidence, after having played with it for over 5 years and observed the effects of large drives in the field with increased and non-increased swap, there is truly no benefit to it, from what I have seen and experienced.
Does your experience include MFS file system fixes and rebuilds?
puffdaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2006, 10:53 PM   #10
JamieP
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 982
Quote:
Originally Posted by tivoupgrade
I respect the fact that some folks like to increase their swap and feel that there is a benefit to it - but I take issue with the misnomer that it is something you MUST do. It just isn't the case...
I agree with this and it's the message I'm attempting to convey when I refer people to the "two schools of thought" post.
JamieP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2006, 12:11 AM   #11
tripmaster
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 135
Looking forward to the first successful home upgrades

I'll spend the money at Weaknees if I must but Im hoping to do this myself as well -- so Im looking forward to the first how they did it post...
tripmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2006, 08:45 AM   #12
ahaley42
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 83
Well, it will take an actuall OS or system that can read SATA Drives, so not either of the well known boot disks at this time. After that it all depends on creating the disk image and placing it on the new disk. Possible that the MFSTOOLS will do that. WeeKnees said they wouldn't have time to share for a while, I'm guessing right about the time that drive sales taper off. :-)
I don't begrudge them getting their money but I just can't spent THAT kind of money to do it. Over double what the actual drive costs. My wife is already on the edge of murderous.
ahaley42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2006, 09:04 AM   #13
BobCamp1
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahaley42
I don't begrudge them getting their money but I just can't spent THAT kind of money to do it. Over double what the actual drive costs. My wife is already on the edge of murderous.
Well, one of their main sources of income will go away once Tivo activates the eSATA port on the back of the unit. Then upgrading the S3 becomes a one step process that even my grandparents could do (and they just discovered the backspace key on their PC last week...)
BobCamp1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2006, 09:49 AM   #14
lessd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 6,005
Quote:
Originally Posted by tivoupgrade
You don't need to (nor do we recommend) increasing the swap size. It will not benefit your performance in the least. The only harm in increasing the swap size is that if you do not initialize it correctly, using tpip, you may end up with no swap at all. And that is a bad thing.

I don't want to start a flame war of the benefits of increased swap vs the non-benefits of not-increased swap, however I can tell you with confidence, after having played with it for over 5 years and observed the effects of large drives in the field with increased and non-increased swap, there is truly no benefit to it, from what I have seen and experienced.

I respect the fact that some folks like to increase their swap and feel that there is a benefit to it - but I take issue with the misnomer that it is something you MUST do. It just isn't the case...
I feel the same way, have TiVo running with 300g & 400G drives and 127m swap for years with no problems.
__________________
Les Daniels

_____________________________________________
3 Roamio Plus upgraded to 2Tb & 3Tb, and 2 Minis,
lessd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2006, 10:35 AM   #15
tripmaster
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 135
TiVo S3 tools?

Shouldnt it be primarily a matter of finding a Linux distro that has SATA driver support?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ahaley42
Well, it will take an actuall OS or system that can read SATA Drives, so not either of the well known boot disks at this time. After that it all depends on creating the disk image and placing it on the new disk. Possible that the MFSTOOLS will do that. WeeKnees said they wouldn't have time to share for a while, I'm guessing right about the time that drive sales taper off. :-)
I don't begrudge them getting their money but I just can't spent THAT kind of money to do it. Over double what the actual drive costs. My wife is already on the edge of murderous.

tripmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2006, 10:45 AM   #16
tripmaster
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 135
Nah

I dont think that's true - ppl will be looking to maximize their storage for a long time. 750GB internal, maybe 1.5TB in a eSATA RAID...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobCamp1
Well, one of their main sources of income will go away once Tivo activates the eSATA port on the back of the unit. Then upgrading the S3 becomes a one step process that even my grandparents could do (and they just discovered the backspace key on their PC last week...)

tripmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2006, 12:47 PM   #17
Dkerr24
Lost in Big Bend
 
Dkerr24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Okla, USA
Posts: 2,450
Quote:
Originally Posted by tivoupgrade
You don't need to (nor do we recommend) increasing the swap size. It will not benefit your performance in the least. The only harm in increasing the swap size is that if you do not initialize it correctly, using tpip, you may end up with no swap at all. And that is a bad thing.
I agree completely. I have been running a 300gb Samsung drive in one of my DTivo units for over 6 months with *only* a 127mb swap file and it runs perfect. I tried tpip before this, ended up with NO swap file and the unit locked up almost daily.
__________________
265 hour (Samsung 300gb) Samsung S4040R zippered, network enabled,
220 hour (WD 250gb) RCA DVR40 zippered, network enabled
Dkerr24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2006, 12:52 PM   #18
Anametrix
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 44
Great info on the swap size, many thanks guys.
Anametrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2006, 02:18 PM   #19
ahaley42
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by tripmaster
Shouldnt it be primarily a matter of finding a Linux distro that has SATA driver support?
Should be but I booted to one that did and it still had issues seeing the drive content. So I'm not sure. Guess I'll wait till someone smarter than I tackles it. I just wanted to do it before I got the image dirty.
ahaley42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2006, 02:19 PM   #20
ahaley42
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobCamp1
Well, one of their main sources of income will go away once Tivo activates the eSATA port on the back of the unit. Then upgrading the S3 becomes a one step process that even my grandparents could do (and they just discovered the backspace key on their PC last week...)
When. If. Whatever. :-) The if is what I'm worried about. 25 hours of HD isn't much. Guess I'll keep my S2 around for SD content.
ahaley42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2006, 02:35 PM   #21
JasonD
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: San Diego
Posts: 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by tivoupgrade
You don't need to (nor do we recommend) increasing the swap size. It will not benefit your performance in the least. The only harm in increasing the swap size is that if you do not initialize it correctly, using tpip, you may end up with no swap at all. And that is a bad thing.

I don't want to start a flame war of the benefits of increased swap vs the non-benefits of not-increased swap, however I can tell you with confidence, after having played with it for over 5 years and observed the effects of large drives in the field with increased and non-increased swap, there is truly no benefit to it, from what I have seen and experienced.

I respect the fact that some folks like to increase their swap and feel that there is a benefit to it - but I take issue with the misnomer that it is something you MUST do. It just isn't the case...
I can say I've done a couple of 400 GB drives with no problems and also a 120 and a 400 GB together for total of 520GB with no problems.

Thank you for being a light in the darkness.


Jason
JasonD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2006, 05:12 PM   #22
ZeoTiVo
I can't explain
 
ZeoTiVo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 25,522
Quote:
Originally Posted by tivoupgrade
You don't need to (nor do we recommend) increasing the swap size. It will not benefit your performance in the least. The only harm in increasing the swap size is that if you do not initialize it
BTW thank you for the ISO image that had all the tools including TPIP on it. It was very helpful and I wont forget that
__________________
You just need to disable your sense of shame for all humanity and click past the break
ZeoTiVo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2006, 08:35 AM   #23
XBoogie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 11
tivoupgrade is correct in his assessment. You only need to increase swap file size when you increase MEMORY (RAM), not storage space (hard drive). Therefore, you do NOT need to increase the swap file size if you add a larger hard drive.

NOTE: The swap file is preallocated storage space on the hard drive to swap RAM data into.
XBoogie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2006, 09:12 AM   #24
Gunnyman
Super FunBall
 
Gunnyman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Greenville SC
Posts: 29,480
with the ability to add external HD why even upgrade ? Or am I missing something?
__________________
It's a sociological cornucopia of silliness.
Gamertag: GGwallen
Gunnyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2006, 09:31 AM   #25
ahaley42
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 83
There is an esata port on the back of the unit. No promises that it will be enabled. All of the normal Tivo folks on the board have been fairly mum on the subject of adding back in MRV, T2G, and esata expansion. I am not trusting that it will magically be turned on one day. Some things have in the past and some haven't. 25 hours of SD content isn't much. All I was hoping for from Tivo was an "it's coming, we're not sure when." is it a tech issue or a Cable Labs issue? Anyway, that's why it's a big deal.
ahaley42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2006, 10:02 AM   #26
JamieP
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 982
Quote:
Originally Posted by XBoogie
You only need to increase swap file size when you increase MEMORY (RAM), not storage space (hard drive). Therefore, you do NOT need to increase the swap file size if you add a larger hard drive.
As a general statement, this is not true at all. You need to increase swap on a linux system if your total peak virtual memory usage will exceed the sum of physical memory size and swap size.

The theory that lead to the "1MB of swap for 2GB of disk" rule of thumb was that the mfscheck program (the media-file-system check and repair program that runs during a Green Screen of Death) can sometimes use that much VM when repairing a badly damaged MFS. It makes sense that it might use VM in proportion to the size of MFS. No one to my knowledge has ever verified the worst case mfscheck memory usage on a Series2. You really need access to the source code to do a through analysis, but careful experimentation could yield a good estimate too. Anecdotal reports ("I've never seen a GSOD that failed due to a lack of swap space") are useful, but not a substitute for a good experiment or theoretical analysis of the code.

The theory on the other side (there is no advantage to swap > 127MB) is that a GSOD is almost always caused by a failing hard drive, and recovery is unlikely anyway.

Both positions have their merit. Choose your poison.
JamieP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2006, 10:03 AM   #27
Gunnyman
Super FunBall
 
Gunnyman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Greenville SC
Posts: 29,480
I got straight from Tivo Pony that some features were not ready when they had to lock up the box for release, but he did promise that you can add your own external SATA storage.
__________________
It's a sociological cornucopia of silliness.
Gamertag: GGwallen
Gunnyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2006, 12:53 AM   #28
DCIFRTHS
I dumped SDV / cable
 
DCIFRTHS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: New York
Posts: 2,075
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnyman
I got straight from Tivo Pony that some features were not ready when they had to lock up the box for release, but he did promise that you can add your own external SATA storage.
That's awesome news! Is there a post where he states this, or was it a verbal/email conversation you had with him?

Thanks!
DCIFRTHS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2006, 07:11 AM   #29
Gunnyman
Super FunBall
 
Gunnyman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Greenville SC
Posts: 29,480
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCIFRTHS
That's awesome news! Is there a post where he states this, or was it a verbal/email conversation you had with him?

Thanks!
Said it in person at Tivo Con in Las Vegas.
__________________
It's a sociological cornucopia of silliness.
Gamertag: GGwallen
Gunnyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2006, 07:13 AM   #30
Turtleboy
Registered User
 
Turtleboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Ft. Lauderdale
Posts: 47,485
TC CLUB MEMBER
But it's not enabled today. And people want to upgrade today.
Turtleboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Forum Jump




Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Advertisements

TiVo Community
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skins by: Relivo Media

(C) 2013 Magenium Solutions - All Rights Reserved. No information may be posted elsewhere without written permission.
TiVoŽ is a registered trademark of TiVo Inc. This site is not owned or operated by TiVo Inc.
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:46 AM.
OUR NETWORK: MyOpenRouter | TechLore | SansaCommunity | RoboCommunity | MediaSmart Home | Explore3DTV | Dijit Community | DVR Playground |