Missing the point on price

dekrieger · 09-13-2006, 06:13 PM

I think many of you are missing the point on price. Anyone who is coming to the board is a Tivo user and most likely a Tivo lover, if that is ok to say. But the $800 just makes it to difficult yo stay with Tivo if you want to enjoy HD. that is the problem.

Many of you are comparing all that Tivo has to offer v the crappy cable service, and I do not think there is one person that will come to this site that will say cable is better or even comparable. But cable is a much cheaper price, and cable is easier, and with cable, I will not spend at least $1,000 and worry that they may go out of business in the next few years because not enough people were willing to pay $800.

And isn't that the crux of this discussion. For all Tivo lovers to continue to enjoy Tivo, Tivo needs to continue to stay in business. Well, if I switch because of price, and you switch because of price, how will any of us continue to enjoy Tivo in the future. that is the real problem.

Tivo is in business, and yes they need to make money, but making a lot of money on a few, v lesser money on a lot, with monthly subscription fees, which do you think will win. I hope Tivo thrives, and I hope the cost becomes reasonable so I can get rid of the cable DVR I just picked up today, but only time will tell.

eisenb11 · 09-13-2006, 06:29 PM

The S3 is a new product. It costs Tivo alot of money to make. New products always cost more at first as Tivo has to pay off the costs of research, design, and initial manufacturing.

When that's done the price drops like a rock... usually in a year or two.

It's not Tivo, it's every new electronic product that goes like this.

The Tivo you buy now for $99 probably cost $500 when it first came out. The S3 is no different.

If you want the S3 now, you have to pay the early adopter price which is high. If you don't want to pay this extra-high price, wait a year or two for prices to come down to normal levels.

Yes, people love their Tivos, but Tivo has to charge a higher price initially - that's how the world works.

jfh3 · 09-13-2006, 06:40 PM

I'm sorry, I've been living with a painfully frustrating iGuide powered Motorola 6412 for the better part of a year.

Not having to deal with the frustration of freezes, missed recordings, insufficient space, frustrating searches and pseuso-season passes is worth a good portion of the $800 I spent for a Series 3

Turtleboy · 09-13-2006, 06:46 PM

A lot of these people are also relatively new who got super cheap Series 2s. These people live in the land of $50 Series 2 with rebates.

They don't know that the original Tivo that could only record 14 hours cost the same price. They don't know that the HD Tivo for Direct TV cost $1000. They don't care either.

They just like the complain. They want something + It Cost a Price they don't want to pay = It's not fair.

eisenb11 · 09-13-2006, 07:17 PM

True that.

Few people realize that you wouldn't be able to buy 50" plasma TVs right now for $3,000 if it weren't for the people years ago who spent $30,000 on a plasma TV.

Someone has to foot the bill for the S3 so it can *become* affordable.

jones07 · 09-13-2006, 07:41 PM

I for one appreciate those that foot the bill for us nonearly-adopters

I'll be back when the land is full of $99 Series 3's after rebates.

vman41 · 09-13-2006, 08:08 PM

I don't complain about the price, my problem is that I was blindsided by the feature exclusions. I expect to replace my S2 with a box that does what the S2 does plus records HD (OTA now with an option for digital cable soon or later). They spent so much effort to convince you that the special thing about TiVo is that it is a peer in your home media network, and what should be the premier product doesn't comply with that vision.

Analog is a dead end. With the cable deals developing, TiVos commitment to the standalone market is a big question.

tigerflyboy78 · 09-13-2006, 08:31 PM

I strongly disagree, I love Tivo as much as anybody here, but I'll be d**** if I'm paying 900 bucks for a new Tivo. I just spent 3500 on a plasma and getting it setup and was ready toadd a new HD tivo to my new setup, but seeing that price..... I hope Tivo realizes most floks that own Tivo do it because they WORK FOR A LIVING!!! I will keep my series 1 box I moved it downstairs and will be going with the new directv HD DVRyeah it may not have all the bells that Tivo does but at 299 an a disocunt for being a loyal customer, and 4.99 a month I haveto say I was greatly surprised with Tivo I expected much better

Turtleboy · 09-13-2006, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigerflyboy78

I strongly disagree, I love Tivo as much as anybody here, but I'll be d**** if I'm paying 900 bucks for a new Tivo. I just spent 3500 on a plasma and getting it setup and was ready toadd a new HD tivo to my new setup, but seeing that price..... I hope Tivo realizes most floks that own Tivo do it because they WORK FOR A LIVING!!! I will keep my series 1 box I moved it downstairs and will be going with the new directv HD DVRyeah it may not have all the bells that Tivo does but at 299 an a disocunt for being a loyal customer, and 4.99 a month I haveto say I was greatly surprised with Tivo I expected much better

What's with the anger??

Are you angry that you can't afford a Ferrari? Did you know that the first Tivo that could only record 14 hours cost almost $1000? Did you know that the HD Tivo for DirectTV cost $1000? Did you know that the first VCRs cost $3000+?

It's a new product, it's new technology, and it's high end. If you can afford it, buy it.

If you can't afford it wait. The price will eventually come down.

I am surprised how many people think that they are entitiled to something for nothing, or at a certain price.

Is it expensive? Yeah. I'm going to wait and save up to buy one.

But this emotional response to the price is just bizzare. It's not like they are gouging you on AIDS medicine or food to feed your family. It's a Tivo for Jebus's sake.

NOD · 09-13-2006, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigerflyboy78

I hope Tivo realizes most floks that own Tivo do it because they WORK FOR A LIVING!!!

well of course they do. How else are ya gonna afford it?

lkinley · 09-13-2006, 08:42 PM

First off, it's $799, not $900.

Second, you paid $3500 for a plasma, but you're not willing to pay $799 to feed it properly, with an interface that isn't going to annoy you on a daily basis.

I don't get it. Why spend that much on a TV then? If the thought of $800 is so daunting, why not wait a year longer for the TV and the price drop will pay for the TiVo?

-Lance

Leo_N · 09-13-2006, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lkinley

First off, it's $799, not $900.

Second, you paid $3500 for a plasma, but you're not willing to pay $799 to feed it properly, with an interface that isn't going to annoy you on a daily basis.

I don't get it. Why spend that much on a TV then? If the thought of $800 is so daunting, why not wait a year longer for the TV and the price drop will pay for the TiVo?

-Lance

Hah!! Logic on a thread like this, you'll never get away with it!

albrandwood · 09-13-2006, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dekrieger

But cable is a much cheaper price, and cable is easier, and with cable, I will not spend at least $1,000 and worry that they may go out of business in the next few years because not enough people were willing to pay $800.

for me, the cable HDTV costs $15 per month instead ... of either $2 or $4 (depending on how cablevision treats the cablecards) ...

My wife prefers the TiVo interface to the SA8300HD, (as do I, but the Wife Appreciation Factor is a more relevent issue) and so we have BOTH an S2 (with seperate cable decoder) and an SA8300HD in the livingroom ... both of which can be replaced with one S3.

The monthly will go down ($7 for TiVo+$4 for the CC as opposed to $7 for TiVo, $5 for cable decoder, $5 for SA8300HD, $10 for DVR Service) ... but with a high upfront cost ... after 4 years ... the savings will be +/-$25 ... not a big deal eitherway, but at least I'll be giving it to TiVo rather than Cablevision.

albrandwood · 09-13-2006, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtleboy

the first Tivo that could only record 14 hours cost almost $1000?

So what? How is this relevent? what are you arguing? that in 99, it cost $71 per hour? as opposed to now, when its $26 per hour? or that in 99 it was 14 hours, now, 7 years later, its upto a whopping 30 hrs capacity??? :-D

EVERYTHING is expensive when it first comes out...

The issue is not the $$$, but the PERCIEVED VALUE.

If you make $10/hr, have a wife, kids, mortgage etc, then $800 is WAY to expensive for what is nothing more than an overpriced hightech VCR ...
if you make $80/hr, and are single, no kids, $80,000 Mercedes, then $800 is pocket change. so of course you are going to buy one ... and use it to watch Survivor in HDTV while sitting on the john...

for everybody who thinks $800 is too expensive, please DONT keep harping on about how $800 is a big issue ... we know inherently that not everyone can afford it ...

for everybody who has no issue with spending $800 on an overpriced CE toy ... stop telling those that can't/won't afford it, that it is worth it ...

In fact, we could probably just delete all posts today, and replace them with 2 simple posts ...

1) $800 ... thats nothing, I'll pay that ... oops ... appears I've already ordered, now thats out of the way, I'm gonna complain about the delivery time because I called my cable company and they came to install the cards before the box arrived, and now they are charging me an extra $20 to come out twice.
2) $800 ... that's way over priced ... I'm gonna tell everyone that I'm switching to Satelite/Fios... not that it will have any affect, cos sure as the world spins, TiVo is NOT going to drop the price significantly between now and Xmas. And I probably won't actually do it, since at the end of the day, there are only 3 programs this week that I would have watched in HD anyway...

/rant off

@

tigerflyboy78 · 09-14-2006, 12:44 AM

and that's where your right it's a tivo not a Mercedes, yes I paid for a nice plasma, and I paid to have it installed. and it took a while to save for that. Unlike some people I work for a living. Anger yes and I have as much right to be angry as you have to buy the over priced recorder. Like I said I choose to go a more reasonable route, and I think Tivo will find that many more customers will do the same. oh and BTW, the S3 does not work with the satellite form what I have read in other forums so I guess this is a mute point anyway

kbohip · 09-14-2006, 01:10 AM

Quite honestly, at first I thought $800 was too much for the S3. Now I've changed my mind. Why? I have an HR10-250, the REAL first HD-Tivo

. When it first came out it cost a cool grand! Although I got in on a "special" deal and only paid $200 for it. It didn't have such neat features as front panel organic display or lit remote either.

Yes, $800 is too rich for my blood, even though it's probably worth it. I can wait for the price to go down in a year or so though. By then I'll probably be using the new HR20-700 Directv HD-DVR and I'll be surprised if I'm not ready to go back to Tivo. I'll have to check out the Comcast Tivo box too before I really decide.

quango · 09-14-2006, 01:12 AM

The bottom line is that the price is driven by what the market will pay. Judging from the hundreds of people who have already bought Series 3's, they think it's worth $800 (or $720 if they used a 10% off coupon). When TiVo sees that sales are declining, they'll either drop the MSRP or start doing rebates; rinse, lather, repeat.

The only other thing that would reduce the price is a real competing product in the marketplace. The other HD DVRs that can record both cable and OTA appear to be either discontinued or at the same price, and are by all accounts radically inferior products. And the Big Cable DVRs, while nominally cheaper if even available, appear to be basically unreliable and can't record OTA broadcasts (which matters to consumers in a lot of markets, like mine, where major networks just aren't on cable in HD).

If there's a better (or at least viable) option for you now, or you can live without a Series 3, nobody is saying you need to plop down $800 when it may be much less in a year. But the market will bear $800 today... and you'll be back when the market will bear what you're willing to pay after spending 6-12 months fighting your CableCo's DVR.

calitivo · 09-14-2006, 01:24 AM

I'm a bit surprised at the amount of complaints regarding the pricing. Yes, $800 is really expensive, but don't you think that this will be down about $100 as soon as the Amazon's of the world get stock in October. Of course it will, especially if they are really getting it for $500. At that price, I would expect $600 pricing by end of year. Come January and post holiday slump and with enough supply, $500 after rebate pricing is 6 months away, IMO. I can wait.

I personally don't buy into the "they need to recoup costs of development" reason. As a technology company, a certain percent of your costs must be R&D. Tivo knew it had to go HD and spent a long time getting there. Maybe they hired an extra person or few to help the effort, but so it goes and I'm sure it could have been done in less than 2 years. I think the price is simply a matter of them being told by enough people they want HD recording that Tivo has the capability of charing early adopters a lot of money.

What annoys me is the Tivo.com only lifetime transfer situation. Misleading info a few weeks ago I think. I believe they will get enough grief from retail buyers, they will be forced to offer this for everybody until 12/31. It's a win-win from both sides I think.

smak · 09-14-2006, 01:37 AM

Man, I must be totally insane, but what swear word is d****. I can't figure it out.

The problem with the complainers, is they post like they've been personally insulted by Tivo.

You haven't!

Perceived value is individual. Some people think it's too expensive, some don't.

This is what they're charging. Get over it. It'll be cheaper in the future.

It seems like people are saying that if they don't think it's worth it, Tivo shouldn't have even released it. They should have waited 2 years until it's cheaper to make, and they can sell it for $400.

Get over yourselves.

-smak-

montivette · 09-14-2006, 02:00 AM

I have read too many of these "it's too much" posts. None have informed me of anything or convinced me that I am an idiot for buying one.

These posts are like a political discussion on a topic such as abortion. It does not matter what is posted or said, nobody is going to convince me that $800 is an insanely high unreasonable price. Nor can I convince the "it's too much" poster that it is really a good deal. Doing either is rather pointless, we are not going to change the others beliefs.

Value and worth is in the eye of the beholder and influenced by a variety of factors. For me this will be the cheapest purchase in my home theater system. I have spent more on cables than I will on a series 3.

Also, if we all want a reality check, add up how much money you spent watching cable/satellite TV in the last year. $500, $1200, $1500? How insane really are we for spending that kind of money to watch a stupid TV? We all need to get a life. At least for $800 with the series 3 you have something physically tangible which can be touched, held for the $800 you spent.

The other day I was shopping at the grocery store in the chip isle and saw a bag of chips cost $3. I am not a big chip buyer (can you say health nut) but I have some people coming over so thought I would by some. But wow, $3 for stupid bag of chips? Then I wondered how much some Tivo forum members spend on chips each year? Then Pop? Booze? Cigarettes? I know some of you easily must spend $800 a year on just one of these things?

I realized in the chip isle I have been too obsessed about the Tivo as I am thinking of the "it's too much" posters while shopping for food!

So for you "it too much" posters all I can say is to stop buying one of these items for a year and your series 3 will be paid for. If you want it bad enough, adjust your expenses and pay the piper.

OK I know I have not convinced you, but I figured I better at least try.

smak · 09-14-2006, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by montivette

I have read too many of these "it's too much" posts. None have informed me of anything or convinced me that I am an idiot for buying one.

These posts are like a political discussion on a topic such as abortion. It does not matter what is posted or said, nobody is going to convince me that $800 is an insanely high unreasonable price. Nor can I convince the "it's too much" poster that it is really a good deal. Doing either is rather pointless, we are not going to change the others beliefs.

Value and worth is in the eye of the beholder and influenced by a variety of factors. For me this will be the cheapest purchase in my home theater system. I have spent more on cables than I will on a series 3.

Also, if we all want a reality check, add up how much money you spent watching cable/satellite TV in the last year. $500, $1200, $1500? How insane really are we for spending that kind of money to watch a stupid TV? We all need to get a life. At least for $800 with the series 3 you have something physically tangible which can be touched, held for the $800 you spent.

The other day I was shopping at the grocery store in the chip isle and saw a bag of chips cost $3. I am not a big chip buyer (can you say health nut) but I have some people coming over so thought I would by some. But wow, $3 for stupid bag of chips? Then I wondered how much some Tivo forum members spend on chips each year? Then Pop? Booze? Cigarettes? I know some of you easily must spend $800 a year on just one of these things?

I realized in the chip isle I have been too obsessed about the Tivo as I am thinking of the "it's too much" posters while shopping for food!

So for you "it too much" posters all I can say is to stop buying one of these items for a year and your series 3 will be paid for. If you want it bad enough, adjust your expenses and pay the piper.

OK I know I have not convinced you, but I figured I better at least try.

Yah, I would like to comb through everybody's lives who posted a

here today, and find something that I find ridiculous that they pay for.

That would be fun!

-smak-

GoHokies! · 09-14-2006, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigerflyboy78

and that's where your right it's a tivo not a Mercedes, yes I paid for a nice plasma, and I paid to have it installed. and it took a while to save for that. Unlike some people I work for a living. Anger yes and I have as much right to be angry as you have to buy the over priced recorder. Like I said I choose to go a more reasonable route, and I think Tivo will find that many more customers will do the same. oh and BTW, the S3 does not work with the satellite form what I have read in other forums so I guess this is a mute point anyway

You're a damned idiot.... I think that all of us work for a living here, gotta pay the bills somehow, you know...

You really have no right to be angry because an expensive piece of home theater equipment costs a lot of money - were you angry that your Plasma cost $3500? Epecially since you're not even able to use it anyway, since you use sattelite (which you don't need to go to forums to learn, the S3 is supposed to be a CABLE BOX replacement, which is why is uses CABLE CARDS - anyone else that expected it work with Dish or whomever joins you in the "damned idiot" category).

You sound just like my 3 year old throwing a temper tantrum, except when I tell him to go sit on the stairs until he can act like a big boy, he listens to me and settles down...

classicX · 09-14-2006, 07:19 AM

I don't think Tivo is in much danger of going out of business anytime soon, with the deals they are making (such as Comcast, DirecTV, and I believe Cox now).

Only time will tell if people are willing to pay slightly more per month for the Tivo UI versus the standard one. I would gladly pay $5 per month per box for the Tivo UI.

tunnelengineer · 09-14-2006, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigerflyboy78

and that's where your right it's a tivo not a Mercedes, yes I paid for a nice plasma, and I paid to have it installed. and it took a while to save for that. Unlike some people I work for a living. Anger yes and I have as much right to be angry as you have to buy the over priced recorder. Like I said I choose to go a more reasonable route, and I think Tivo will find that many more customers will do the same. oh and BTW, the S3 does not work with the satellite form what I have read in other forums so I guess this is a mute point anyway

Where to begin..........

1) If you are using satellite, the S3 isn't for you. Never was intented to and Tivo has said this for months. You already have an HD Tivo that cost $1000 when new. This product is for Cable customers.

2) I've got a LCOS HDTV that I paid $2k for a year ago. With the $800 fee for tiv S3 I will still be cheaper than your plasma. It's all a matter of choice...

3) It "moot point", not "mute".

4) I work for a living too. I really don't understand what the point of that comment was. Because I work I can pay for some perks, like an HDTV and S3 Tivo.......

Stormspace · 09-14-2006, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vman41

I don't complain about the price, my problem is that I was blindsided by the feature exclusions. I expect to replace my S2 with a box that does what the S2 does plus records HD (OTA now with an option for digital cable soon or later). They spent so much effort to convince you that the special thing about TiVo is that it is a peer in your home media network, and what should be the premier product doesn't comply with that vision.

Analog is a dead end. With the cable deals developing, TiVos commitment to the standalone market is a big question.

+1

While the price is hard to swallow, the lack of features was a real slap in the face to me, especially when me and my family rely on those so much.

Stormspace · 09-14-2006, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lkinley

First off, it's $799, not $900.

Second, you paid $3500 for a plasma, but you're not willing to pay $799 to feed it properly, with an interface that isn't going to annoy you on a daily basis.

I don't get it. Why spend that much on a TV then? If the thought of $800 is so daunting, why not wait a year longer for the TV and the price drop will pay for the TiVo?

-Lance

When I bought my HDTV it wasn't with the thought that I'd be paying 800 dollars to feed it. It was more along the lines of 300-500 dollars, so that's how I based my budget for television. Additionally I planned to replace one of my S2's with the S3, but at present the limited feature set precludes that option.

Gregor · 09-14-2006, 08:29 AM

MRV and TTG are nice to haves, but not dealbreakers for me. I'm so tired of the crappy Moto interface and it's outstanding bug list and missing recordings that I'm very happy to kick it to the curb.

eisenb11 · 09-14-2006, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigerflyboy78

and that's where your right it's a tivo not a Mercedes,

If Tivo were a car company, the S3 would be their Mercedes.

Let's look at Sony for example. You can buy a 50" Sony plasma for $4,500... or you can get a 50" Sony Qualia plasma for $20,000. Is it not fair because their upper line is more expensive?

You're supposed to buy what you can afford. If you can't afford it, wait for the price to come down or don't buy it. No need to ruin your credit rating over a Tivo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigerflyboy78

yes I paid for a nice plasma, and I paid to have it installed. and it took a while to save for that.

Well, good... now continue saving for the S3 if you want one. Why is it ok to save for the plasma and not for the S3?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigerflyboy78

Unlike some people I work for a living.

And you think all of us who bought the S3 for $800 don't work for living? Where did you think we get the money? From the money tree?

We work for a living too... and have bills, and rent/mortages, and familiar, car payments, etc, etc...

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigerflyboy78

Anger yes and I have as much right to be angry as you have to buy the over priced recorder.

You have the right to be angry, and we have the right to think you're acting silly. I want a Ferrari Enzo... for $50,000... should I be mad that they sell for $1Million... no, ofcourse not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigerflyboy78

Like I said I choose to go a more reasonable route, and I think Tivo will find that many more customers will do the same.

I don't think Tivo really has a lot at stake with the S3. I think they're producing it as a show piece. Tivo makes their money from service, they're not primarily a hardware sales company. If current events are any indication Tivo's goal is to operate primarily in conjunction with Cable and Satellite providers through the original equipment. The S3 is for a niche market.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigerflyboy78

oh and BTW, the S3 does not work with the satellite form what I have read in other forums so I guess this is a mute point anyway

And it took you this long to realize that? The whole point of the S3 is that it uses CABLECARDS!!! Cablecards... as in for... CABLE.

There are already Tivos that do HD over Satellite, the S3 was to cover the digital cable market that Tivo hadn't yet tapped.

HDTiVo · 09-14-2006, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dekrieger

For all Tivo lovers to continue to enjoy Tivo, Tivo needs to continue to stay in business. Well, if I switch because of price, and you switch because of price, how will any of us continue to enjoy Tivo in the future. that is the real problem.

Tivo is in business, and yes they need to make money, but making a lot of money on a few, v lesser money on a lot, with monthly subscription fees, which do you think will win.

TiVo is far better off with many subscribers at lower price.

If TiVo does not drive volume with price reductions promptly after getting some intital pent up sales, I will be disappointed.

doormat · 09-14-2006, 10:00 PM

I've come up with the following compromise...

I'll buy a S3 TiVo when
1. TiVo enables any two of the following three: eSATA, MRV, TTG
2. The price (including any rebate) falls below $599.

I'm hoping this happens early next year (by the end of March). But who knows. I've got my target and I'll wait for it.