No S3 QAM Manual Remap?

[mattn2]

I was just poking around on the TiVo.com site and found this in the FAQ: (emphasis added)

Will my Series3 HD work with my cable company?
The TiVo Series3 HD will work with all major cable providers. In order to receive HD Digital channels, you will require (1) or (2) CableCARDs. Without CableCARDs, you will still be able to receive standard definition analog channels.

This is from the page http://www.tivo.com/series3hdDvr.asp
and clicking on "For more information on CableCARD, please click here."

So I am "required" to pay for a CableCARD even for the (by law) free QAM channels. That just does not seem right to me.

# Matt

[jfh3]

There's been quite a bit of discussion on this topic.

Short answer - we don't know for sure.

[jsmeeker]

Originally Posted by mattn2

I So I am "required" to pay for a CableCARD even for the (by law) free QAM channels. That just does not seem right to me.

# Matt

No such law exists. The cable company does not have to give you any channels via QAM "for free".

[eisenb11]

Is there any standard commercial device with a built in QAM board?

Emphasis on "standard" because I know there are some weird PCI cards for computers out there, but from I gather those things are flaky and hard to work with. I didn't think any TV/VCR/DVD-Burner/OEM DVR/ETC on the market was able to tune QAM natively?

I was under the impression that digital stations (even free ones) == digital cable box / cable card to watch... on almost anything?

[greg_burns]

Originally Posted by eisenb11

Is there any standard commercial device with a built in QAM board?

Lots of HDTV's have ATSC/QAM tuners built-in to them...

[Dan203]

Any TV with a CableCARD slot has a built in QAM tuner. Also a lot of the newere ATSC boxes also do QAM.

Dan

[MsRoboto]

To answer eisenb11.

I was under the impression that digital stations (even free ones) == digital cable box / cable card to watch... on almost anything?

I have a friend that got a new HD television. She only has basic comcast without a digital box. After doing a search for all channels she got all locals in HD. They were way up high in the numbers and may have been funky numbers like 739.1 or something like that. It was hard to find any information or guide information on this. Apparently, this is QAM and is part of standard cable. No extra cost to her.

[moyekj]

Originally Posted by eisenb11

Is there any standard commercial device with a built in QAM board?

Emphasis on "standard" because I know there are some weird PCI cards for computers out there, but from I gather those things are flaky and hard to work with. I didn't think any TV/VCR/DVD-Burner/OEM DVR/ETC on the market was able to tune QAM natively?

I was under the impression that digital stations (even free ones) == digital cable box / cable card to watch... on almost anything?

As mentioned many HDTV models include unencrypted QAM tuners. There are also several set top ATSC tuners such as the Samsung SIR-T451 and several LG models that can tune unencrypted QAM not to mention the various PCI and USB tuners out there.

As my sig below implies I am hoping against hope that unencrypted QAM will be properly supported by the S3.

[greg_burns]

Originally Posted by Dan203

Any TV with a CableCARD slot has a built in QAM tuner. Also a lot of the newere ATSC boxes also do QAM.

Dan

My Sony has a CC slot, but I've never really associated that with why it had the QAM tuner. Obviously the QAM tuner works w/o the requirement of having a CC installed in the slot. Are there no HDTV's w/o CC that DO have QAM tuners?

[greg_burns]

Originally Posted by MsRoboto

They were way up high in the numbers and may have been funky numbers like 739.1 or something like that. It was hard to find any information or guide information on this. Apparently, this is QAM and is part of standard cable. No extra cost to her.

And those numbers sometimes can be changed w/o notice. Hence the need for the manual remap. (I guess). Why can't the guide data just have this info and be updated when it changes?

[Dan203]

Possibly. These days a lot of the ATSC tuners have built in QAM support, and most TV manufacturers use standard parts. So if it has a newer ATSC tuner then it might also do QAM even if it doesn't have a CableCARD slot. However the CableCARD slot guarantees that there is a QAM tuner, since there is no way for the CableCARD to work without a QAM tuner.

Dan

[Dan203]

Originally Posted by greg_burns

Why can't the guide data just have this info and be updated when it changes?

It could. However, from what I hear, in some areas these channels change daily. In those cases it would be impossible for TiVo to keep the guide data up to date. (there is about a 3 day lag for any guide data changes made in the TiVo system)

Dan

[greg_burns]

Originally Posted by Dan203

It could. However, from what I hear, in some areas these channels change daily. In those cases it would be impossible for TiVo to keep the guide data up to date. (there is about a 3 day lag for any guide data changes made in the TiVo system)

Dan

Daily?!? Holy cow. Mine hasn't changed since I got my TV earlier this year.

Edit: Scratch that, I'm thinking of my OTA HD channels having not changed (well, duh ). I guess I haven't paid much attention to the QAM ones. I was waiting for the S3 to bother watching them with any regularity.

[jsmeeker]

Originally Posted by eric_mcgovern

There is a "law" regarding the broadcast networks, which is what I assume the OP is speaking of.

Its part of the must carry ruling, i.e. if NBC is broadcasting in digital, in market, and is carried by the cable company (in analog form), the cable company must carry it, and treat it just like NBC analog. Now sure the cable company could encrypt NBC analog, but then every single subscriber would require a set top box, and they can't force users to use a set top box (they could, they just couldn't charge for them). This would be the only way they could "legally" encrypt the digital channel they are carrying. So the FCC sort of forced cable operators to carry the digital signal at no additional charge, which is why just about every cable co has them in the clear. Of course the digital channels almost always broadcast in HD as well.

He mentions QAM, so it's clear he doesn't mean OTA. Also "free and clear" does not mean "no charge". He was talking about paying money for CableCARD, hence why I assumed his use of the word "free" meant "no charge".

[bkdtv]

I don't know about daily changes, but the QAM locations of channels here on Comcast change every week or two. If Tivo only had to deal with a few cable systems, I'm sure they could do it. But I don't see how Tivo could possibly keep up with the changes made by dozens of cable systems every month.

[moyekj]

For many cable system headends the RF channel assignments don't change that often, however the sub-channel assignments can change very often due to how the multiplexing is handled. It also depends on how the specific QAM tuner assigns sub-channels. But it is a moving target for sure.

[m_jonis]

Originally Posted by eric_mcgovern

There is a "law" regarding the broadcast networks, which is what I assume the OP is speaking of.

Its part of the must carry ruling, i.e. if NBC is broadcasting in digital, in market, and is carried by the cable company (in analog form), the cable company must carry it, and treat it just like NBC analog. Now sure the cable company could encrypt NBC analog, but then every single subscriber would require a set top box, and they can't force users to use a set top box (they could, they just couldn't charge for them). This would be the only way they could "legally" encrypt the digital channel they are carrying. So the FCC sort of forced cable operators to carry the digital signal at no additional charge, which is why just about every cable co has them in the clear. Of course the digital channels almost always broadcast in HD as well.

Lucky for me, we don't have ABC "in market" even though they are broadcasting in digital and HD in their own market. So guess what, we don't get ABC digitally over cable, and unless I put an antenna 1,000 feet up I won't get it.

Right now there is a battle going on because the FCC believes that cable companies must also carry the sub bands. A lot of NBC stations broadcast "Weather Plus" on a sub channel, which a lot of people would like. Of course the cable companies don't think they need to (bandwith, cost, etc.) and the FCC thinks they do..will be interesting to see what happens.

Um, no. There is no digital "must carry" provision. The FCC only mandates (currently) an analog must carry. Trust me. We went over a year without "digital" (digital or HD) of our local CBS station because they wanted our local TW office to pay them for that signal. Even though TW carried the analog station.

If there is an FCC requirement that says cable can't "force" someone to rent an STB, then it would seem that cable using SDV would be in violation of this, because currently the ONLY way to watch an SDV channel is to use an STB from the cable company. And both our local TW Albany and TW South Carolina offices have stated that they are NOT required to give the STB for free.

[Brainiac 5]

Originally Posted by m_jonis

Um, no. There is no digital "must carry" provision. The FCC only mandates (currently) an analog must carry. Trust me. We went over a year without "digital" (digital or HD) of our local CBS station because they wanted our local TW office to pay them for that signal. Even though TW carried the analog station.

I'm not sure if the "must carry" rules cover the digital broadcasts, but what you are describing is consistent with those rules (unless anything has changed since the last time I checked).

The rules say that each station can decide for itself to either charge the cable company for the right to carry it, or to invoke "must carry," which means that the cable company must carry the station but does not have to pay for the right to do so. The station can only change its selection at certain intervals (I think every three years?).

So, it's like a game of chicken - if you think the cable company can't stand to be without your station, you choose to charge for it. This means they don't have to carry it, though, so if you're wrong, they won't. On the other hand, if you thought from the start that they wouldn't carry you (or just wouldn't pay), then you would choose the "must carry" option.

[Larry in TN]

Originally Posted by Dan203

However the CableCARD slot guarantees that there is a QAM tuner, since there is no way for the CableCARD to work without a QAM tuner.

So even if you can't remap the channels you would still be able to tune the QAM stations manually, right? You just wouldn't be able to schedule recordings via season passes or wishlists which both depend on the associated guide data?

[Dan203]

That is correct. If there is no guide data then the best you'd be able to do is manual recordings of the QAM channels which would then be listed as "Manual: date time".

Dan

[Phantom Gremlin]

Either that FAQ is very poorly worded or I'm NOT buying an S3.

Comcast here has local HD in clear QAM. The channels don't change. Comcast also has SD clear QAM simulcast of local analog. Either I can record both of those w/o cablecard or I don't buy an S3.

[Dan203]

Then you're probably not going to be buying a S3. While you will technically be able to record any channel the S3 can tune (which should include all QAM channels) the most likely approach to handeling the mapping of those channels to their respective guide data is via the CableCARD. It's possible they might add an interface for manually mapping the channels yourself, however unlikely given the wording of this FAQ.

Dan

[greg_burns]

Maybe this has been asked before...

Can you rent a CC w/o subscribing to digital cable from Comcast? The obvious answer seems to be no, but these are new waters were entering.

Edit: Let me ask that another way. Is it possible to get the HD package w/o subscribing to the digital package. There was a post here not long ago were somebody said a co-worker claimed to be doing just that.

[bkdtv]

Can you rent a CC w/o subscribing to digital cable from Comcast? The obvious answer seems to be no, but these are new waters were entering.

The HDTV locals are part of Comcast limited basic ($14/mo service). You do need digital service to get most of their other HD channels, like ESPN-HD and Discovery, which are encrypted. In some markets, you may get one or two other HD channels with limited basic, such as the InHD channels.

As far as CableCards without digital service --- yes, it can be done. However, for them to process the order, you typically have to order digital service at the same time. Once the CableCard is installed and activated, call to unsubscribe from the digital package. That way, you are paying the ~$2/mo for the CableCard and get the unencrypted digital channels mapped correctly, but can stick to analog basic service without the extended or digital packages.

[greg_burns]

Originally Posted by bkdtv

The HDTV locals are part of Comcast limited basic ($14/mo service). You do need digital service to get most of their other HD channels, like ESPN-HD and Discovery, which are encrypted. In some markets, you may get one or two other HD channels with limited basic, such as the InHD channels.

As far as CableCards without digital service --- yes, it can be done. However, for them to process the order, you typically have to order digital service at the same time. Once the CableCard is installed and activated, call to unsubscribe from the digital package. That way, you are paying the ~$2/mo for the CableCard and get the unencrypted digital channels mapped correctly, but can stick to analog basic service without the extended or digital packages.

Great news! I am currently a digital subscriber until this special I'm on runs out. I'll get the CC prior to downgrading and see how it goes.

[CCourtney]

Originally Posted by mattn2

I was just poking around on the TiVo.com site and found this in the FAQ: (emphasis added)

Will my Series3 HD work with my cable company?
The TiVo Series3 HD will work with all major cable providers. In order to receive HD Digital channels, you will require (1) or (2) CableCARDs. Without CableCARDs, you will still be able to receive standard definition analog channels.

This is from the page http://www.tivo.com/series3hdDvr.asp
and clicking on "For more information on CableCARD, please click here."

So I am "required" to pay for a CableCARD even for the (by law) free QAM channels. That just does not seem right to me.

# Matt

Back to the subject at hand. While the FAQ does not say specifically say that you cannot manual map digital channels.

What it does say is what's pretty much guaranteed. You will need a CableCARD to guarantee that you get the Digital Channels (because most of the things are encyrpted) and you can still receive SD Analog Channels (as they are not encrypted.)

That in no way shape or form implies that you can or cannot manually map channels.

That said, if you're willing to pay $800 for a box, pay for subscription fees (if you bought lifetime subscription you still paid for subscription fees), and are crying about having to pay $2/mo for a CableCARD, then you got a problem IMHO.

Unfortunately all we really know about the S3 is what we were told on that CES video from earlier this year. And that's not even 100% certain, just what was planned at that time.

The FAQ is lame and limited.

CCourtney

[greg_burns]

Originally Posted by CCourtney

That said, if you're willing to pay $800 for a box, pay for subscription fees (if you bought lifetime subscription you still paid for subscription fees), and are crying about having to pay $2/mo for a CableCARD, then you got a problem IMHO.

It is not just $2 more. It is $2 more + digital cable package. I just want locals in HD. I cannot get them all via OTA. Hopefully what bkdtv suggested couple posts back will work.

[jsmeeker]

Originally Posted by greg_burns

It is not just $2 more. It is $2 more + digital cable package. I just want locals in HD. I cannot get them all via OTA. Hopefully what bkdtv suggested couple posts back will work.

but you may have to get the digital cable package to get the local HD channels via cable TV. You're probably gonna wind up paying a lot more to the cable company than you are now.

[mattn2]

Originally Posted by greg_burns

It is not just $2 more. It is $2 more + digital cable package. I just want locals in HD. I cannot get them all via OTA. Hopefully what bkdtv suggested couple posts back will work.

OP here ... Greg hit the nail on the head. It is not just $5 more (per card) for $10, but it is also the $50 per month more for the digital package. NOTHING exists on my digital package in HD except the locals (Stoopid cable co did an "upgrade" over the last 2 years and didn't up the bandwidth). This is a total of $60 a month to the cable co just to receive what I can't OTA (alphabet networks) due to the Denver DMA NIMBY problem.

In order to get any other HD besides FOX and CW (which I can get OTA), I am trapped into D* or E* for the forseeable future, or QAM for the other "free" networks.

# Matt

[moyekj]

Originally Posted by jsmeeker

but you may have to get the digital cable package to get the local HD channels via cable TV. You're probably gonna wind up paying a lot more to the cable company than you are now.

No, at least for my headend all the major network HD channels are unencrypted and available to a clear QAM tuner with just subscription to basic cable. Not having to subscribe to digital cable saves a lot of money/month in my case:
$10 HD DVR box rental
$5 DVR fee
$12.95 digital cable

If I want CableCard then I am required to subscribe to digital cable so that's $13/month + $2/month for each CableCard more (plus an additional outlet fee if I want 2nd cablecard).

So with proper unencrypted QAM support with the S3 I could potentially shave off $28/month from cable bill which I would then apply towards S3 box + subscription fees.