HR20-700 vs 6.3 vs Series 3...the 411

[jeffrypennock]

I'm struggling with a big decision: cable vs DirecTV and I would really like some input on this. I've read a million billion pages of this website (i.e., 2% of what's here) and I've done google searchs, but what I lack is the two big pieces of data I need in order to make this decision:

1) How does the HR20-700 stack up against the updated 6.3 DirecTV boxes against the much anticipated Series 3 TiVo? In other words what are the features of each of these devices I know cable vs satellite, but which have DT's and which don't? which can record OTA also, which can't? What kind of inputs (how many of which kind?) and what kind outputs (optical audio, HDMI w/ passthrough, a serial port to control the cable box, etc)? Broadband compatible vs require a phone line? Stuff like that.

2) How will my TiVo experience be different depending on which I select compared w/ my current TiVo experience (I have cable from digital cable from TimeWarner Houston connected to SD Series 2 TiVos plus a horrible horrible HD DVR from TimeWarner (SA 8300 I think) for HD recording)? I'm assuming that all these options will have TiVo software w/ season passes, etc. (I was shocked to read that there was ever a kind of TiVo WITHOUT season passes???) Will I still be able to do remote scheduling online? What will work different because I no longer have the typical TiVo software on typical Series 2 box?


I realize this is a lot to ask for but I read page after page about stuff like how the cable companies are undermining cable cards (which seems like a major bummer) and how some people have DirecTV TiVo's connected to the phone, some don't, etc and I think I've understood what I've read but it's mostly jargon and speculation without much if any time being spent on how these boxes (particularly the DirecTV ones) are to work and how they can be connected. I have not doubt if I spend the 2 weeks reading everything on here, I'd find the answers to all my questions but I'm jumping into this kind of late I guess and I'm sure that there are readers here who know the answers to these questions off the top of their head. I'd be much obliged if they'd share those answers with me.

Thanks.

[rminsk]

HR20-700 not released yet. 6.3 not released yet. Series 3 not released yet. Who knows how your experience will be. All of them will be able to record OTA signals.

[ebonovic]

Jeffry..

You are sure asking a lot there... as rmisk none of the items you have listed are out to the general public....

That comparison, probably won't be fully known or understood to probably nearly a year from now.... (after they are all released, and have been out there from a little while)

[Brewer4]

I looked at this and just breathed out. Thats a big question and too little info to provide. Wish I knew too. Heck I am going to throw in D* direct capture cable card for Windows Media Center into my decision mix. Talk about total "who knows".

[jeffrypennock]

HA! While I knew Series 3 wasn't out yet, I didn't even KNOW that the satellite products I referred to weren't available yet...LOL. They way some people were speaking about 6.3, I figured that had been rolled out at least a month ago.

Does nobody know what the feature upgrades will be in the 6.3 then?

I'm really agonizing about the Cable vs Satellite decision in PART because I know very little about satellite TV beyond how the channel line-up compares to my cable channel line-up. I'm pretty fluent in high-end and higher-tech appliances but when it comes to sat tv, I'm kind of in the "you mean the TV is coming to me from outer-space?" place.

But there are a few things I do know: I know that my Dad's sat tv get crummy everytime the wind blows...but that may or may not necessarily be my experience. I also know that my HD DVR from the cable company doesn't run TiVo software...and it's DRIVING ME NUTS; I hate everything about it!! I have GOT to get my entire TV viewing experience BACK into a TiVo-only arena but I'm unwilling to give up the HD quality. And that is what I'm trying to address.

I can throw in my two cents in about the Windows Media Center. I've played with it a little bit...it's nice but, for me, it's totally out of the question because it's Windows. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those Mac people (you know, those people who hysterically sing the praises of their Macs and hiss at the sight of Windows). I like Windows; I have two computers and a phone that run Windows (WinXP and WinMobile, respectively) and all three of those devices do things they couldn't do if they weren't running Windows. But I'm uncomfortable giving Windows control of my TV because while Windows may be able to do things that nobody else can do, Windows is also sure to fail sometimes to do what it is supposed to. TiVo never screws up (as long as you've set it up right). I can handle the blue-screen-of-death on my computer, my phone totally locking up, etc. every once in a while; but missing an episode of Law&Order or a critical soccer match is NOT ACCEPTABLE. There maybe things that TiVo can't do; but TiVo always does what it's capable of doing. The fact that TiVo always works is why a non-TiVo system like WMC is not option for me. I strayed by getting this HD DVR from my cable company and I'll never stray again.

[aaronbca]

Well, if the Tivo experience is important to you (it is to me), the HR20-700 is not a Tivo box - it runs a different operating system from NDS that DirecTV is moving to, that has much the same functionality, but definitely not the user experience so far. Don't know if the HR20 will be better than current NDS software, but I'd assume so. Whether it's close enough to what you're used to is a personal call. In my experience, the NDS UI is much better than cable's DVR software, but still not up to par with Tivo.

6.3 is Tivo, thru and thru, on a High Def box, but may be outdated as the next few years go on, and they add more HD channels in an incompatible format. Again, judgement call as to whether those channels are important to you or not. Out of the box these boxes do not support remote scheduling (even though they are Tivo, DirecTivo's do not support online access officially), although others here may be able to help with that.

Series 3 boxes may or may not support Satellite at all, or if they do, may only support 1 tuner. Still unknown, but so far, the press from Tivo is pushing cable. Will have to wait to find out.

[jeffrypennock]

VERY HELPFUL INFO! I've a couple questions.

Originally Posted by aaronbca

Well, if the Tivo experience is important to you (it is to me), the HR20-700 is not a Tivo box - it runs a different operating system from NDS that DirecTV is moving to, that has much the same functionality, but definitely not the user experience so far. Don't know if the HR20 will be better than current NDS software, but I'd assume so. Whether it's close enough to what you're used to is a personal call. In my experience, the NDS UI is much better than cable's DVR software, but still not up to par with Tivo.

When you talk about the HR20-700 vs the HR20, I'm not sure what you mean when you reference the HR20. Is that some other box besides the HR20-700?

Originally Posted by aaronbca

6.3 is Tivo, thru and thru, on a High Def box, but may be outdated as the next few years go on, and they add more HD channels in an incompatible format. Again, judgement call as to whether those channels are important to you or not. Out of the box these boxes do not support remote scheduling (even though they are Tivo, DirecTivo's do not support online access officially), although others here may be able to help with that.

Incompatible format??? I've not heard about this. An explanation or a link to the thread where this is explained would be much appreciated. Also, do you happen to know which DirecTV HD boxes run or will be soon be running 6.3?

Thanks so much for info on getting back to the actual TiVo UI. My cable company's DVR UI is driving me crazy...horrid.

[jdk]

hr20=hr20-700

(the -700 is just a code DirecTV uses to denote the contract manufactuer of the box now).

The HR20 will NOT being running Tivo software.

6.3, being Tivo software will only run on the HR10-250.

All new HD Channels from DirecTV are transmitted in MPEG4. The HR10 does not, nor ever will support MPEG4.

[aaronbca]

Originally Posted by jeffrypennock

When you talk about the HR20-700 vs the HR20, I'm not sure what you mean when you reference the HR20. Is that some other box besides the HR20-700?

Same thing.

Originally Posted by jeffrypennock

Incompatible format??? I've not heard about this. An explanation or a link to the thread where this is explained would be much appreciated. Also, do you happen to know which DirecTV HD boxes run or will be soon be running 6.3?

Thanks so much for info on getting back to the actual TiVo UI. My cable company's DVR UI is driving me crazy...horrid.

There's only one HD DVR avail for DirecTV right now, the HDTivo. If you want an HD format DVR from DirecTV, you would have to get this, and it is a Tivo unit. This is what the 6.3 update will apply to. As they said above, the update isn't out yet, but will be soon. The HR20 unit is the successor HD DVR to the HD Tivo - it will be the HD DVR DirecTV will be pushing whenever it's finally released. It is a unit made by DirecTV and does not include Tivo software, so it's a different user experience. How good or bad that is is to be seen. The current HD Tivo is based on current/older technology (MPEG2). Most channels are in MPEG2 format. New HD channels are rolling out in MPEG4, which the HD Tivo cannot decode, but the HR20 will. Right now, MPEG4 only applies to local HD channels received via satellite, and a few HD national channels, but that will increase over the next 2-3 years. So the HD Tivo boxes may not be able to see new channels as they're added to the line-up. Current channels will continue to work for the foreseeable future, though.

No problem on the Tivo UI - it seems the days of Tivo working with everything equally are over. Now it's just choices as to what's most important to you personally.

[jeffrypennock]

WOW! While my original post in this thread was initially responded to as requesting the unknowable, the last two posts on this thread completely resolved my big dilemma: should I switch to satellite? The answer is clearly no because it won't satisfactorily achieve my goal of getting onto a TiVo only system. I don't want to spend $$$ buying a sat system that will promptly not be able to play the expanded new/MPEG4 channels. Nor do I want to spend $$$ buying a non-TiVo sat system when I've already got a non-TiVo HD cable DVR system required no equipment purchases. What I need to do is suck-it-up, learn to deal with what I've got and wait to see what develops. You two saved me hundreds of dollars...thank you.

Jeff

PS When the previous poster says, "It seems the days of TiVo working w/ everything equally are over," it is my sincere hope that he/she is mistaken on this point. I have a sinking feeling that their analysis on this point is just as insightful/helpful as it was on the previous points, but I'm clinging to the hope that one of two of my delusions in this matter will be actualized:
1) What we know of the S3 is just from a demo box at CES..it is possible that the S3 has been overhauled in its software and/or hardware such that there is a way around the CC1.x/CC2.0/switched video drama (I don't know how, but the folks at TiVo have showed a remarkable ability to think creatively and with much foresight...let's hope that leads to a solution rather than a termination of the S3 project)
2) Time Warner is/soon will be in the works of developing a similar type relationship with TiVo that Comcast did.

[aaronbca]

Originally Posted by jeffrypennock

WOW! While my original post in this thread was initially responded to as requesting the unknowable, the last two posts on this thread completely resolved my big dilemma: should I switch to satellite? The answer is clearly no because it won't satisfactorily achieve my goal of getting onto a TiVo only system. I don't want to spend $$$ buying a sat system that will promptly not be able to play the expanded new/MPEG4 channels. Nor do I want to spend $$$ buying a non-TiVo sat system when I've already got a non-TiVo HD cable DVR system required no equipment purchases. What I need to do is suck-it-up, learn to deal with what I've got and wait to see what develops. You two saved me hundreds of dollars...thank you.

Jeff

PS When the previous poster says, "It seems the days of TiVo working w/ everything equally are over," it is my sincere hope that he/she is mistaken on this point. I have a sinking feeling that their analysis on this point is just as insightful/helpful as it was on the previous points, but I'm clinging to the hope that one of two of my delusions in this matter will be actualized:
1) What we know of the S3 is just from a demo box at CES..it is possible that the S3 has been overhauled in its software and/or hardware such that there is a way around the CC1.x/CC2.0/switched video drama (I don't know how, but the folks at TiVo have showed a remarkable ability to think creatively and with much foresight...let's hope that leads to a solution rather than a termination of the S3 project)
2) Time Warner is/soon will be in the works of developing a similar type relationship with TiVo that Comcast did.

You're welcome. I thought that's what you were asking about, so I was trying to answer. If Tivo is the most important thing to you, then sat is not a long term solution at the moment. That could change in the next 6 months, but who knows. I will say that I think - in my experience, your mileage may vary - the satellite non-tivo DVRs are still ahead of the cable co's DVR UIs by a mile. But no one is yet as good as Tivo's UI. RE: the S3, I hope I am wrong - I would love to see Tivo keep their options wide open. Anything could happen - but as it looks right now, Tivo's business model is squarely aimed towards striking deals with cable co's and external content providers (which is smart from a business standpoint - most of the country is still on cable). DirecTV will provide them with income from current subs, and there are ongoing lawsuits with E* (which I hope is a sneaky way for them to eventually force Echostar to license Tivo, but who knows...). The recent DT box is "optimized for cable" meaning it will run dual tuner for cable only - for satellite, this box is limited to single tuner still, and the S3 is also looking to be optimized for CC. There are tons of variables, though, so who knows...

[IndyTom]

Originally Posted by aaronbca

You're welcome. I thought that's what you were asking about, so I was trying to answer. If Tivo is the most important thing to you, then sat is not a long term solution at the moment. That could change in the next 6 months, but who knows. I will say that I think - in my experience, your mileage may vary - the satellite non-tivo DVRs are still ahead of the cable co's DVR UIs by a mile. But no one is yet as good as Tivo's UI. RE: the S3, I hope I am wrong - I would love to see Tivo keep their options wide open. Anything could happen - but as it looks right now, Tivo's business model is squarely aimed towards striking deals with cable co's and external content providers (which is smart from a business standpoint - most of the country is still on cable). DirecTV will provide them with income from current subs, and there are ongoing lawsuits with E* (which I hope is a sneaky way for them to eventually force Echostar to license Tivo, but who knows...). The recent DT box is "optimized for cable" meaning it will run dual tuner for cable only - for satellite, this box is limited to single tuner still, and the S3 is also looking to be optimized for CC. There are tons of variables, though, so who knows...

As someone who will stay with DirecTV - no matter which DVR OS they use - I am impressed by your objectivity with the compares and contrasts.

Typically these threads turn into a D* versus Tivo posts with dart throwing speculation of the capabilities of future roll outs. I gained a ton from your dissection of the different options.

[rifleman69]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffrypennock

When you talk about the HR20-700 vs the HR20, I'm not sure what you mean when you reference the HR20. Is that some other box besides the HR20-700?


Same thing.



The H20 and HR20-700 are two seperate boxes. The former is just a regular HD box, the latter will be the new HD-DVR. The H20 doesn't DVR at all, it's just a regular old box that receives mpeg4 signals.

[aaronbca]

Originally Posted by IndyTom

As someone who will stay with DirecTV - no matter which DVR OS they use - I am impressed by your objectivity with the compares and contrasts.

Typically these threads turn into a D* versus Tivo posts with dart throwing speculation of the capabilities of future roll outs. I gained a ton from your dissection of the different options.

Thanks. It's frustrating when threads turn into a free for all. Glad it was helpful. Everyone has an opinion, but it more comes down to what's good for you personally.

[bidger]

Originally Posted by jeffrypennock

2) Time Warner is/soon will be in the works of developing a similar type relationship with TiVo that Comcast did.

And how do you know this?

[BillyT2002]

It does make sense in one way. It would behoove TIVO to forge a relationship with TIme-Warner at this point if for no other reason, than to work with them to ensure that the S3 works with Time-Warners switched digital video. I had an e-mail correspondence, myself with Glenn A. Britt sometime last August or so who told me in his e-mail to me that Time-Warner is and has been in ongoing, productive negotiations with TIVO and that he was hopeful that something would come out of it in the near future. I posted the body of the e-mail at the time in the cable section of the www.satelliteguys.us forums.

[classicsat]

Originally Posted by jeffrypennock

1) How does the HR20-700 stack up against the updated 6.3 DirecTV boxes against the much anticipated Series 3 TiVo? In other words what are the features of each of these devices I know cable vs satellite, but which have DT's and which don't? which can record OTA also, which can't? What kind of inputs (how many of which kind?) and what kind outputs (optical audio, HDMI w/ passthrough, a serial port to control the cable box, etc)? Broadband compatible vs require a phone line? Stuff like that.

Generally, satellite HD DVRs only input satellite LNB signal and very likely an ATSC OTA signal. They must be subscribed to the satellite service to work, even as an OTA DVR. It should be noted that the DirecTV HR10-250 only accepts a DBS-Ku MPEG2 signal, so you won't get any channels that will be MPEG4 and/or on the Spaceway Ka satellites.

The Series 3 will input direct cable and OTA, both analog and digital, and with CableCard, be able to access nearly all one-way pay cable.
You cannot use any sort of STB with a Series 3.

They all should have HDMI and optical out, as well as component and S-video/composite out.

None will input HD or digital video/audio signals. Of TiVos, only the Series 2 or Series 1 standalones will accept analog SD input from an external STB, and can control it. No satellite (read DirecTV) TiVo officially supports networking, only Standalone Series 2s and Series 3s do/will.

2) How will my TiVo experience be different depending on which I select compared w/ my current TiVo experience (I have cable from digital cable from TimeWarner Houston connected to SD Series 2 TiVos plus a horrible horrible HD DVR from TimeWarner (SA 8300 I think) for HD recording)? I'm assuming that all these options will have TiVo software w/ season passes, etc. (I was shocked to read that there was ever a kind of TiVo WITHOUT season passes???) Will I still be able to do remote scheduling online? What will work different because I no longer have the typical TiVo software on typical Series 2 box?

The core TiVo features will be on whatever TiVo powered DVR you choose.

The difference primarily will be in some UI features (such as the Recently Deleted Folder), and networking (or lack thereof, which is the case of all TiVo powered DirecTV DVRs).

One option, if you want to switch to DirecTV, and retain the networking features you are used to on your Standalone, is to get the H-20 receiver to feed your DVR, albeit you won't be able to TiVo HD.

[jeffrypennock]

Originally Posted by bidger

And how do you know this?

Please don't misunderstand. I don't know this do be true at all. Like I said when I started the list: those were hopes of mine, not facts.

[jeffrypennock]

Originally Posted by BillyT2002

I had an e-mail correspondence, myself with Glenn A. Britt sometime last August or so who told me in his e-mail to me that Time-Warner is and has been in ongoing, productive negotiations with TIVO and that he was hopeful that something would come out of it in the near future. I posted the body of the e-mail at the time in the cable section of the www.satelliteguys.us forums.

I am VERY happy to hear that! I would be very excited to hear a status update on those negotiations, if anyone has one???

[lynesjc]

If you're a soccer fan as you stated, Goltv and Setanta are musts and that means you need satellite.

[holyroman]

I hope I'm not thread-jacking but I think I am in a similar boat.
I currently have a direct-tv tivo box (standard definition) but recently got an HDTV.
I was thinking of upgrading to HD-Tivo w/ directTV. But there current unit will be outdated eventually right, so will they not offer an upgrade.
is that the advantage to leasing from them instead of buying the unit outright from somewhere else? will they upgrade the leased model to theie own proprietary hd-dvr when that comes out?
also i like the funcionality of the standalone Tivo, i did not even know it could do some of the stuff it does. like sending shows to your computer.
Tell me could I, upgrade to an HD Direct-tv reciever(not tivo) and then could I not get a standalone hd-tivo(if they make one) and route my OTA-hd signal and -directTV with HD package(if i choose) to the tivo box and do what i want. thanks in advance

[aaronbca]

Originally Posted by holyroman

I hope I'm not thread-jacking but I think I am in a similar boat.
I currently have a direct-tv tivo box (standard definition) but recently got an HDTV.
I was thinking of upgrading to HD-Tivo w/ directTV. But there current unit will be outdated eventually right, so will they not offer an upgrade.
is that the advantage to leasing from them instead of buying the unit outright from somewhere else? will they upgrade the leased model to theie own proprietary hd-dvr when that comes out?
also i like the funcionality of the standalone Tivo, i did not even know it could do some of the stuff it does. like sending shows to your computer.
Tell me could I, upgrade to an HD Direct-tv reciever(not tivo) and then could I not get a standalone hd-tivo(if they make one) and route my OTA-hd signal and -directTV with HD package(if i choose) to the tivo box and do what i want. thanks in advance

You can upgrade from a regular DirecTivo box (standard definition) to an HD Tivo thru customer service or retention. It may cost you nothing, it may cost you $299 - depends on the person you get and how you plead your case. When the new non Tivo HD DVR comes out (HR20) they will most likely offer an upgrade path of some sort, for both bought and leased receivers - don't know what that will be, but it should hopefully be something reasonable. As far as ugrading to a stand alone HD receiver (would be the H20) and then hooking a stand alone Tivo into that - they don't make a HD capable standalone Tivo yet - that is the unreleased Series 3 Tivo that is being talked about above. It will have OTA HD capability, as announced by Tivo, but satellite HD capability is doubtful. There's no way to know til it's released, but it's looking mostly like the Series 3 box is geared towards cable customers. That could change, though, when it's finally released.

[aaronbca]

Originally Posted by jeffrypennock

I am VERY happy to hear that! I would be very excited to hear a status update on those negotiations, if anyone has one???

Tivo has said they're in negotiations with a few different cable systems to offer their boxes as they start to switch people to Hi Def capable DVRs. Time Warner is supposedly one of them.

[holyroman]

Thanks I found the thread about trying to call retention and get an upgrade for free, I think this is the route I will go. Thanks for the response totally clear as mud now!!

[feetwet]

Update from DirecTv today, they now show the HR20 is now expected in Sept-Oct timeframe... so it seems further delays from the recently expect August date.

[ebonovic]

Originally Posted by feetwet

Update from DirecTv today, they now show the HR20 is now expected in Sept-Oct timeframe... so it seems further delays from the recently expect August date.

What update?
Where did you see it?