NCIS - 4/4 - Iced - SPOILERS

[busyba]

Hmmmm, Gibbs as judge jury and (by proxy) executioner.

I'm as fond of gangbangers getting killing each other as the next guy, but I'm not sure I'm entirely comfortable with our heroes' roles in this.

How is what they did not conspiracy to commit murder?

[Worf]

Hey, it's the war on terror, rules must be broken in order to catch those terrorists!

(Though, I think the first season was far more scary in its subtleness rather than present seasons of NCIS).

[busyba]

Speaking of that, they were pretty nonchalant about their warrant-free wiretapping of the LVM communications too.

I'm almost inclined to think that the gross abuses of power leading to the de-facto murder of the suspect was supposed to be meant as a cautionary tale about the potential for abuse in the novel interpretations of the concept of civil liberties that we see the government subjecting us to lately.

An illustration of the theory that power corrupts, if you will.

[dswallow]

<awaiting typical excuse blaming Hollywood liberals for the propaganda>

I liked it though.

[pcguru83]

One word... "homopubic". That made me laugh out loud for several minutes.

[Hersheytx]

I love this show. But its to hard for me to believe law enforcement has the right to do something like that. Even if he is the worse person in the world. They should have confronted him with his lies. Made him understand that they have ratted him out. Give him a chance to roll over on his gang.
At least try to give him a way out before he gets filled with lead.
I am starting to see the change in tone of this show after Agent Todd left. Its almost like the moral character of the show has shifted. Bring in a new character with ethics of the Isreal CIA (not sure what it is called) and you have even more power abuse.
I know its only a show. For some reason though I think there are people watching this show and thinking this is the right thing to do. Its like swear words. If you do it enough around children they get used to it. They think it is ok to swear. Then they do it too. Its a slippery slope.....I sure hope they have more episodes that make up for this lack of moral respect.

This got me thinking about another show and its moral fiber. A while back, almost a year, there were two shows (Vegas and Rob Lowes show) that had the terminally ill patient at the end committing suicide. Now I will not go into how I feel about this subject, but it was really sad to see how the writters made the characters respond to this event. They all just laughed. It was sick.
Am I over-reacting? Maybe. I am not a right-wing conservative christain wannabe. But I do think things like this can take away something inside a person.

[RoundBoy]

Many shows pull the 'patriot act' card to bypass normal procedure and arrest / detain / watch a suspect..

I can't tell if the various writers are promoting it as a good thing, because a dangerous man is now off the streets because the 'normal' system failed or if its a subtle reminder of "hey, this is what can happen .. wake up america".

L&O : SVU was pretty guilty of using this .. hey, who is going to argue that the child rapist should be walking around....

But then again, replace "Illegal alien gang banger" from the latest NCIS episode, who was detained whenever they wanted due to 'terrorism' and partriot act rules, with "just some guy off the street they suspect". Then you see how we are getting close to the edge here in this country.

Hersheytx: You aren't crazy .. you have your likes / dislikes. As long as one can realize that not everyone likes the same things / worships the same god / has the same moral compass , you will do fine in life. Its what seperates a good person from 'religious fanatic'.

[busyba]

Originally Posted by Hersheytx

I love this show. But its to hard for me to believe law enforcement has the right to do something like that.

They really don't. Of course, from time to time, government agencies do have a tendancy to do things outside the scope of their rights.

Even if he is the worse person in the world. They should have confronted him with his lies. Made him understand that they have ratted him out. Give him a chance to roll over on his gang.

I thought for sure that was where it was heading. I figured they were setting it up so the guy had no way out but to confess. I really didn't think they would just throw him to the wolves like that.

Of course, once the banger started threatening Gibbs' agents to his face (by telling him he knew where they lived, implying that he would go after them), I guess all bets were off.

Bring in a new character with ethics of the Isreal CIA (not sure what it is called) and you have even more power abuse.

The Mossad. They are pretty badass from what I understand. Jack Bauer would be an amateur in the Mossad.

Actually, you reminded me of the episode where Gibbs had Ziva torture a female suspect in order to find a kidnapped navy intelligence officer who was probably being tortured himself. The ethical issues there didn't occur to me at the time because I was too busy being turned on by the girl-on-girl torture action , but yeah, I guess there has definitely been a recalibration of their moral compass.

[pendragn]

I too was a little shocked at our heroes this week. Not only were they flaunting the "all we have to do is say 'terrorist' and we can do whatever we want" but setting him up to get killed too.

It was a good episode though. Isn't the limit for SMS messages 160 characters, not 150 like Abby said?

tk

[dswallow]

Originally Posted by pendragn

Isn't the limit for SMS messages 160 characters, not 150 like Abby said?

Yes. Though for other alphabets like Chinese, the limit is 70 characters.

[jschuur]

The morale of the story is nobody threatens Gibb's crew.

I also don't think they were actually invoking the Patriot Act. They were just implying that they would infront of the gang members.

[pendragn]

Originally Posted by jschuur

The morale of the story is nobody threatens Gibb's crew.

I also don't think they were actually invoking the Patriot Act. They were just implying that they would infront of the gang members.

I don't know the law, but I got the impresssion they had that guy for quite a while and refused him his lawyer. That's bad. When he asked for his lawyer I thought they justified refusing it by calling "terrorist."

tk

[Church AV Guy]

This is the second time Gibbs completely stepped over the line. (He suppressed evidence at the end of an earlier episode, and he slapped himself in the back of his head as a penance.) Now this murder by remote control, mostly in order to get the guys deployed in Iraq back in a timely manner now that their tour is done. It is arguable that justice was in fact done, but the legal process was violated.

I wonder where they are going with this "Gibbs taking the matter into his own hands" stuff. Maybe something for the season ending cliffhanger?

[busyba]

Originally Posted by jschuur

The morale of the story is nobody threatens Gibb's crew.

I also don't think they were actually invoking the Patriot Act. They were just implying that they would infront of the gang members.

When Gibbs told them to put wiretaps on their phones and pagers, McGee asked "Don't we need a warrant" and Gibbs said "Didn't you hear what Ziva said, they have links to Al Quaeda" and McGee said "Yeah, but she was just--" and Gibbs shut him down with a look.

They conducted warrant-free survaillence of domestic communications using a specious terrorist connection to justify the lack of warrant.

Now, that wasn't a Patriot Act thing, that was a G.W. Bush domestic wiretapping policy thing (which is technically worse since it was a unilateral act done without any authorization or oversight by either of the other two branches of government).

Originally Posted by pendragn

I don't know the law, but I got the impresssion they had that guy for quite a while and refused him his lawyer. That's bad. When he asked for his lawyer I thought they justified refusing it by calling "terrorist."

Well, in that situation, it was more bluster than anything else since it was essentially a mock interrogation. They never had any intention of using anything from the interrogation against the guy (they were just going to let him get whacked instead), so they weren't all too concerned with the fact that anything he'd say after "I want a lawyer" would be inadmissible.

[busyba]

Originally Posted by Church AV Guy

This is the second time Gibbs completely stepped over the line. (He suppressed evidence at the end of an earlier episode, and he slapped himself in the back of his head as a penance.) Now this murder by remote control, mostly in order to get the guys deployed in Iraq back in a timely manner now that their tour is done. It is arguable that justice was in fact done, but the legal process was violated.

I wonder where they are going with this "Gibbs taking the matter into his own hands" stuff. Maybe something for the season ending cliffhanger?

You're right. It's happening bit by bit, incrementally. If it's intentional, it's really good writing. Hopefully there will be a reckoning.

The thing that gets me though... I can see Ziva going along with it and even being a cheerleader, she's a badass Mossad agent, but I'm surprised we haven't seen any indications of serious discomfort yet by Tony or McGee.

[pendragn]

Originally Posted by busyba

Well, in that situation, it was more bluster than anything else since it was essentially a mock interrogation. They never had any intention of using anything from the interrogation against the guy (they were just going to let him get whacked instead), so they weren't all too concerned with the fact that anything he'd say after "I want a lawyer" would be inadmissible.

Regardless, if I'm being held in custody I get access to a lawyer, right? I mean, I don't know their intentions when they haul me in. How do I know it won't be admissible? I know the Miranda rights says I get one.

tk

[mdsutherland]

Originally Posted by pendragn

Regardless, if I'm being held in custody I get access to a lawyer, right? I mean, I don't know their intentions when they haul me in. How do I know it won't be admissible? I know the Miranda rights says I get one.

tk

You are suppose to get a lawyer as soon as you ask for one and they can't ask you anymore questions until he/she gets there. Thing is you can not force them to bring you a lawyer so if they refuse you one then anything you say after you asked for a lawyer can not be used in court. You might not now that but once you do get to speak to a lawyer I'm sure they would know.

So in this case NCIS was not worried about anything being admissible in court because they knew it was not going to go to court.

[busyba]

What mdsutherland said.

Also, while you have rights, there's no guarantee that they will be respected by law-enforcement. Your rights can be (and often are) easily violated.

Having your rights violated then entitles you to relief. In general, however, such relief is limited to the inadmissability of any evidence obtained as a result of the rights violation. In extreme cases the relief can be dismissal of the charges against you, but that's about it.

In the banger's case, well, there's very little that any relief can do for him....

[Worf]

Before we turn this into an illegal political talk thread (it's becoming one), let's get back on topic.

McGee already objects to it - you can see he's uncomfortable with a lot of what he's asked to do (and interestingly, his background makes this a rather consistent view). Tony, well, as an ex-cop, they don't tend to complain about the new "tools" they can exploit.

Gut I think the first season of NCIS was far scarier in the subtleties of the violations than this episode's gross violations. Unless the writers are sending messages to the viewers (to which the majority don't get the subtleties in the first season, and having to resort to more and more obvious vioations). I suppose that's why I dislike the early seasons so much - they're annoying (the first time, OK, the second and Nth time...)

On the other hand, the episode was good because despite the "illegality" of it, the result was achieved not by government, but by standard gang warfare (let them take care of it).

Of course, a lot of NCIS is complete fantasy, like super enhancement and Abby's ability to generate massive clues out of the tiniest piece of fiber.

[Graymalkin]

Let's not forget that producer Bellisario has always been contemptuous of civil liberties when they get in the way of law enforcement. For him, the ends justify the means. Isn't that the way most action-adventure dramas are?

OTOH, let's not carried away. TV is all about male fantasy and wish fulfillment. It's brain candy.

[Amnesia]

Originally Posted by Graymalkin

TV is all about male fantasy and wish fulfillment.

"male"?!?!?

[mrmike]

Originally Posted by pendragn

Regardless, if I'm being held in custody I get access to a lawyer, right? I mean, I don't know their intentions when they haul me in. How do I know it won't be admissible? I know the Miranda rights says I get one.

That's the whole point of Probie's "intimidating" comment. All you have to do is claim someone is a terrorist/enemy combatant, and you can hold them forever with no access to legal council. And do pretty much what you want to them, since nobody has to know you even have them in custody. Of course in "the real world", things don't work that way...

-MM
P.S. Had there actually been terrorist ties to the gang, anyone wearing gang symbols/colors could then have been said to be "in uniform" and therefore entitled to Geneva protections, but we generally claim that "terror" doesn't have a uniform so everyone is an illegal enemy combatant because there is no recognized way to be dressed as a member of the enemy forces. Or something like that, IANAL.

[Graymalkin]

Originally Posted by Amnesia

"male"?!?!?

Yes, male. The male characters can be schlubby (see "Probie") but all the women have to be hot and flirtatious.

[Amnesia]

Originally Posted by Graymalkin

Yes, male. The male characters can be schlubby (see "Probie") but all the women have to be hot and flirtatious.

But you said:

Originally Posted by Graymalkin

TV is all about male fantasy and wish fulfillment.

There are plenty of "schlubby" women on TV.

And even on NCIS, Tony might be described as "hot and flirtatious"

[Graymalkin]

Point taken. I should have narrowed that down from "TV" to "action-adventure series."

[busyba]

Originally Posted by mrmike

P.S. Had there actually been terrorist ties to the gang, anyone wearing gang symbols/colors could then have been said to be "in uniform" and therefore entitled to Geneva protections, but we generally claim that "terror" doesn't have a uniform so everyone is an illegal enemy combatant because there is no recognized way to be dressed as a member of the enemy forces. Or something like that, IANAL.

I believe the main problem isn't that "terror" doesn't have a uniform, it's that "terror" doesn't have a state. A "legal combatant" is necessarily a member of a country's armed forces. Unless a country claims you as one of it's soldiers, you can't be a legal combatant, uniformed or not (but IANAL either).

Given those conditions, every terrorist is "illegal" since no country is going to go on record as their sponsor, since that would be the equivialent of painting a nice shiny red bulls-eye on the map.

[Granny]

Originally Posted by Graymalkin

Yes, male. The male characters can be schlubby (see "Probie") but all the women have to be hot and flirtatious.

Interesting, since that was one of the themes of this episode - that Probie was in fact, NOT schlubby, just adequately moisturized.

[super dave]

More Ziva would be nice, she is great in HD.

[Rocketslc]

Yes, male. The male characters can be schlubby

Tony might be described as "hot and flirtatious"

So, is putting on your rubber gloves with 2 fingers in the little finger spot schlubby or "hot and flirtatious"














Note: this was actually from March 28 "Deception"

[smokinwrek]

Originally Posted by Graymalkin

... TV is all about male fantasy and wish fulfillment. It's brain candy.

If that were true, we would be seeing a lot more of Pauley Perrette, if ya know what I mean.