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Old 04-12-2006, 11:15 AM   #31
hitbyatrain
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Originally Posted by Denise_Z
Excuse my ignorance (we got are machine just a day or two before the folder was added so we didn't have anything to delete when they did) but could you restore a deleted recording before the folder exisited? If not, it seems to me that the whole point of having the folder is so you could see what you have deleted in case you trashed something by mistake. If you deleted something before they came up with the recently deleted folder, where did you look to find recordings that you threw away by mistake?
That's exactly the point. You couldn't do this before, and I bet that 99% of the people who have TiVos either love it, or don't care one way or another. The other 1%? They just need something to gripe about.
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Old 04-12-2006, 02:58 PM   #32
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Way ahead of you. I've already signed up for the CZ-J alpha testing (not to be confused with PB&J) but it's got a long waitlist.
Hey, I'm holding you all to this. I already quit T-Mobile because they didn't put out. "Get More" my rear. I didn't get any. From them, anyway.
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Old 10-01-2006, 05:02 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by lessd
You can't & why would you want to, unless your watching some sex programs you don't want your kids or wife to know about.
Uh... maybe because I'm about to copy a 160GB TiVo drive to another and I don't want it to take frickin' forever... so I want to delete a bunch of suggestions and then purge the RD folder so that I don't have to wait to copy those to the new drive.

Please, TiVo, add this feature in. It doesn't have to be a menu item... it could be a back-door thing. Maybe, pressing "clear" twice in a row when in RD could take you to a "purge all deleted?" screen.

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Old 10-01-2006, 07:50 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by "jemenake
Maybe, pressing "clear" twice in a row when in RD could take you to a "purge all deleted?" screen.
Deleting a bunch of shows in a hurry is why they changed the GUI to put an 'X' at the left of the selection and then return cursor control to the user. Just highlight the first item in the list and then press "clear" once per item in the list. I can delete 4 or 5 shows per second.

You already seem to know this but in normal operation there's no need to empty the RD folder.
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Old 10-01-2006, 09:26 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdhenry
Deleting a bunch of shows in a hurry is why they changed the GUI to put an 'X' at the left of the selection and then return cursor control to the user. Just highlight the first item in the list and then press "clear" once per item in the list. I can delete 4 or 5 shows per second.

That doesn't work so well in the Recently Deleted folder. After each press of the 'clear', it pops up a confirmation screen that requires a press of the select button....way on the other end of the remote.
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Old 10-01-2006, 08:06 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdhenry
Deleting a bunch of shows in a hurry is why they changed the GUI to put an 'X' at the left of the selection and then return cursor control to the user. Just highlight the first item in the list and then press "clear" once per item in the list. I can delete 4 or 5 shows per second.
Etz said "That doesn't work so well in the Recently Deleted folder." when he probably actually meant to say was that method doesn't work at all in the RDF. Each individual deletion needs to be confirmed.


Quote:
You already seem to know this but in normal operation there's no need to empty the RD folder.
And there's no need to turn off suggestions which is on by default on new machines. The thing is that it's an option so that you can record them and I can stop them from recording. It's also possible to remove items from the RDF. Why do you suppose that is? Could it be because while some people will want the folder to conatain as much as possible just in case or as an FSI, other people will want to remove things themselves as they see fit?

"Need" (in terms of normal operation) has nothing to do with "your way."
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Old 10-04-2006, 12:48 AM   #37
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Thumbs up

It WOULD be nice to have the option to do a mass-delete, but I have a slightly different approach to dealing with the RD folder. Since there is no way to tell just how full your TiVo hard drive is, the RD folder can HELP with that!!! Just wait until your box is full and programs start disappearing from the RD folder. The amount of recorded time in the RD folder represents the amount of "free" space you have on your TiVo to record NEW programs that you want!!!

For instance, let's say that you have 25 episodes of 1-hour programs in your RD folder and you notice that some of them begin to disappear. This means that you have 25 hours of recording time free on your hard drive! If 10 of these RD folder programs disappear, you can NOW record only 15 hours of new programming!

The TOTAL of all your recorded programs AND the RD folders programs SHOULD add up to the total capacity of your TiVo - unless you permanently delete some programs from the RD folder. Therefore, every program you delete normally goes into the RD folder and shows you that you now have that extra amount of time for new recordings.

Personally, I think that this is a great feature - at least until TiVo gives us a feature that allows us to view the amount of space used/available on the hard drive!
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Old 10-04-2006, 03:05 AM   #38
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RD folder behavior

Am I understanding correctly that the RD folder doesn't begin to empty itself until the space is actually needed for other programs?

It seems a little weird. If I record a program and tell Tivo to "keep until space is needed", Tivo will delete (or threaten to delete) that recording before it clears the RD folder. Am I understanding this correctly. Seems like the priority should be the RD folder first.
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Old 10-04-2006, 06:14 AM   #39
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In my experience the RD folder is emptied before the "keep until space needed" programs. That is, I've never lost a "Keep until space needed" program when there were still programs in the RD folder.

One exception - shows in excess of the "keep at most" limit bypass the RD folder when they're removed from the Now Playing list. If I have a show at KAM=1, the old show disappears without a trace when the new one starts recording.

Point taken on the multiple steps required to delete programs in the RD. I missed that one. I use RD as a free space indicator so I don't delete shows from there as a rule. You can quickly empty the Recommended sows folder with a series of "clear" presses, though.
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Old 10-05-2006, 06:59 AM   #40
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Unbelievable

I simply can't believe the amount of space taken up by this ridiculous "problem." Someone wants to transfer information from one harddrive to another and not be inconvenienced by the long wait so he wants Tivo to spend money to work on this "issue." That would be the only reason for a batch delete, and that's a pretty weak one. Anyone who says that they want to keep the drive "clean", is far too anal to ever be satisfied with anything Tivo does.
Let's use our complaining time to work on a far better issue, the 7.3.1 fiasco. What a mess.
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Old 10-06-2006, 03:48 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mellow_sparky
Am I understanding correctly that the RD folder doesn't begin to empty itself until the space is actually needed for other programs?

It seems a little weird. If I record a program and tell Tivo to "keep until space is needed", Tivo will delete (or threaten to delete) that recording before it clears the RD folder. Am I understanding this correctly. Seems like the priority should be the RD folder first.
There is really no change in how recordings are stored/removed from the TiVo unit since the "addition" of the RD folder. The only change is that NOW you can "see" the deleted files and can still recover them as long as they haven't been overwritten.

It works the same as the hard drive on a computer. When you delete a file, it is STILL there on the hard drive. ONLY the link to the file name has been removed. You can get "undelete utilities" that will display all the deleted files that haven't yet been overwritten, and you can recover them.

The "Recycle Bin" in Windows works in a similar manner, except that you don't need special software to recover the deleted files. Let's say that you have a 100 GB hard drive that is half full. You continue adding and deleting files to your hard drive, maintaining the 50 GB of "free" space on the drive. The "deleted" files go to the recycle bin. Now, when you have added/deleted another 50 GB of files on the drive, the drive will be "full" even tho it shows that it is 50% full.

Add ANOTHER file to this drive and it will have to "bump" a file from the recycle bin. THAT is basically what the TiVo unit does. When you have recorded a total of 80 GB (on the DT80 unit) the drive is "full". It doesn't MATTER whether you have deleted half of these recordings. BUT the "deleted" recordings have NO PROTECTION when you try to record something ELSE on the unit, and one or more of them will be "overwritten" to make room for the new recording, and will no longer be available to "recover".

As for your specific query, unless there is something wrong with the way the software works or with the TiVo's setup, programs SHOULD be overwritten from the RD folder before those marked "until space needed" are touched. In fact, IF one of the "until space needed" programs is deleted by a new recording, it would go to the RD folder, and one of the RD folder programs would STILL need to be bumped!!!

I guess like any "new" technology that is constantly evolving, there are going to be bugs to be worked out as they appear to customers. And the only way that the folks at TiVo can KNOW of these bugs or problems is through customers like us bringing them to their attention!
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Old 10-06-2006, 03:54 PM   #42
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeTerryP
I simply can't believe the amount of space taken up by this ridiculous "problem." Someone wants to transfer information from one harddrive to another and not be inconvenienced by the long wait so he wants Tivo to spend money to work on this "issue." That would be the only reason for a batch delete, and that's a pretty weak one. Anyone who says that they want to keep the drive "clean", is far too anal to ever be satisfied with anything Tivo does.
Let's use our complaining time to work on a far better issue, the 7.3.1 fiasco. What a mess.
Mike, a problem is only "ridiculous" to someone who either does not know enough about the situation to understand what is being discussed or who does not care about the problem personally. If someone cares to ask a question about something they would like to understand better, then it would seem that it is a valid topic for discussion. After all, is not one of the purposes of forums like this one to ask questions and learn about things we do not completely understand?

As I see it, if people were not concerned or interested about this situation regarding the RD folder, then the topic would die a natural death on its own.
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Old 10-06-2006, 04:19 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jemenake
Uh... maybe because I'm about to copy a 160GB TiVo drive to another and I don't want it to take frickin' forever... so I want to delete a bunch of suggestions and then purge the RD folder so that I don't have to wait to copy those to the new drive.
Deleting programs will not change the amount of time it takes to copy the drive to a new drive. All the data on the disk gets copied (if you copy with the save programs option) whether or not the programs have been deleted.
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:57 PM   #44
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The Reason One Might Want to Delete Shows in "Recently Deleted" Folder

The reason that someone, who has a clue about computers, would want to empty the "Recently Deleted" folder is for performance.

The fact is that as you use your TiVo, the file system get very fragmented. There are really only two ways to defragment a hard drive: 1) use a utility to defragment the hard drive and 2) delete all the files. Since TiVo does not have a defragmenter, the best you can do is delete all the recorded programs.

"Deleting" a show only removes it from the "Now Playing" list and places it into another folder called "Recently Deleted". The file space is still occupied by the "deleted" program until you 1) delete it from the "Recently Deleted" folder or 2) the TiVo determines it needs additional space to record a program and TiVo actually deletes one of the shows in the "Recently Deleted" folder to free up space.

It's not perfect, nor is it completely defragmented, but short of removing the TiVo hard drive and defragmenting it while connected to another computer, the best way to defrag it is to delete all the recorded programs. Not perfect, but it helps performance.

By the way, you can take it to the extreme and use the "Clear and delete everything" option, which will essentially restore your TiVo to like new, deleting nearly all files created on the TiVo since you first put it in service. The ones that were there originally, still occupy the same space they did when your TiVo was new and so it should be essentially no more fragmented afterward, than the day it was purchased new.

Ciao

Last edited by rlares : 07-10-2007 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 07-10-2007, 07:57 PM   #45
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The Tivo regularly indexes the HD, and IIRC from what I have read here, that is similar to defragging.

Are you having problems with performance?

I leave my Tivo alone and I haven't noticed any issues in this area.
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Old 07-10-2007, 08:28 PM   #46
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Indexing Isn't the Same as Defragging

Indexing is like cataloging the guide so that you can quickly find movies from your favorite actor or find all animated childrens shows, etc.

Defragging is rearranging the actual files that reside on your computer hard drive so that they are in contiguous blocks. Take your personal computer, when you store a document like resume.doc onto the hard drive, it may be stored in one continuous grouping of bits or it may be broken into two or more (maybe even hundreds) of groupings of bits. When you retrieve a fragmented file, the hard drive must find all the pieces to assemble your file, resume.doc. When retrieving an unfragmented file, the beginning of the file is located and the entire file read without much repositioning of the drive heads.

Severely fragmented movies, might affect the playback. Severely fragmented indexes might slow your searches, etc.

I have a TiVo series one and a TiVo series two. The series one is lightning quick while the series two performance is often less than ideal. I don't necessarily attribute this performance to fragmentation, but I do try to regularly remove deleted recordings from my TiVo.

Later
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Old 07-10-2007, 08:38 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlares
I have a TiVo series one and a TiVo series two. The series one is lightning quick while the series two performance is often less than ideal. I don't necessarily attribute this performance to fragmentation, but I do try to regularly remove deleted recordings from my TiVo.
How do you "remove deleted recordings. It is my understanding that removing them from the Recently Deleted folder merely removes the index entry for them. This would not allieviate any fragmentation.
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Old 07-10-2007, 09:03 PM   #48
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I understand the point to be that by making the deleted movies recoverable the space isn't ever made available until a recording takes the space of one or two old shows. This might ccontribute to fragmentation since at most only two or three shows might be removed at a time rather than clearing up large blocks of programming. A fair point, perhaps.

I thought that Linux drives were somehow not prone to fragmentation for some reason though (although I would be at a loss to define how). Am I thinking of some other OS than Unix/Linux?
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Old 07-11-2007, 01:36 AM   #49
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The TiVo actually uses its own Multimedia File System (MFS), rather than one of the Windows (FAT, NTFS) or Unix based systems (ext, rfs). It's optimized for large files, and generally doesn't have a problem with fragmentation.

Deleting recordings from the Recently Deleted folder won't help at all, as it doesn't change how the TiVo allocates the space. It just shows you programs that (a) have been deleted, and (b) haven't had any parts overwritten. Deleting a recording from RD just hides it and prevents you from restoring it. The TiVo will select the space to reuse the same whether its in Recently Deleted or not.

The only way to defragment a TiVo partition is to back it up using MFSTools and restore it.
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Old 07-11-2007, 06:38 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlares
The reason that someone, who has a clue about computers, would want to empty the "Recently Deleted" folder is for performance.

The fact is that as you use your TiVo, the file system get very fragmented. There are really only two ways to defragment a hard drive: 1) use a utility to defragment the hard drive and 2) delete all the files. Since TiVo does not have a defragmenter, the best you can do is delete all the recorded programs.
Tivo's proprietary file system manages fragmentation issues on the fly. Fragmentation is not a problem with tivo.
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Old 07-11-2007, 07:57 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjam2jab
what happens if you just hold down the Clear button? Kinda like holding a key on the keyboard repeats that key over and over....???
I tried holding the clear button on the Recently Deleted Folder but it doesn't do anything....
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Old 07-11-2007, 08:42 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick66
If you don't want it and don't want to have to look at it, it's clutter.
"TiVo, TV your way." Why are you having such a difficult time with that concept?
I'm not directing this solely at you, just using your quote to make a point to everyone...

Your right, its TV your way. Meaning you can watch what you want when you want on TV. It has nothing to do with the menu options that don't directly affect your television watching ability. By this reasoning Tivo would have to implement every suggestion that every person makes which is ridiculous and impractical. If Tivo implemented a Clear All RD option, someone would surely complain that they accidentally deleted everything when they were trying to recover a program. Since it's TV your way, is Tivo to remove the option from their box only?

You don't HAVE to look in the RD folder, is it that there is a number greater than 0 that bothers people? There's really no reason to go into the RD folder unless you are recovering a program so just ignore it. If you want to keep it 'clean', delete the show from the RD folder after you finish watching it, it takes all of 5 extra seconds and don't let the folder get up to large numbers that make it time consuming. Please don't say that you shouldn't have to waste your precious time pressing the few extra buttons because if you have time to flop on the couch and stare at the TV for several hours, then you are not so busy that the extra few seconds is going to screw up your schedule.
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Old 07-11-2007, 08:36 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeyTango
You don't HAVE to look in the RD folder, is it that there is a number greater than 0 that bothers people? There's really no reason to go into the RD folder unless you are recovering a program so just ignore it..
Bingo, I have accidentally deleted movies and appreciated the second chance folder. Also, those are the first shows to be deleted when space is needed.
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Old 07-12-2007, 02:04 AM   #54
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I think I would be more comfortable with the "Recently Deleted" folder if I could readily see my available recording space number go up as I manually delete recordings.

Can I?

All I've discovered so far is the number of maximum recording hours, not the remaining space or recording hours.

I'm new to the Series 3 and will happily let TiVo take over the disk management if I can peek into the underpinings and verify it's working correctly.

Thanks
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Old 07-12-2007, 05:47 AM   #55
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By default the only info you have regarding available space is that the number & total length of recordings in the RD folder goes up when you delete from the Now Playing list. If you don't delete from the RD folder at least you have a clue rather than no indication at all.

It works well enough that I generally don't lose any suggestions due to space requirements.
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Old 07-14-2007, 03:58 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sconi1
I tried holding the clear button on the Recently Deleted Folder but it doesn't do anything....
A nice option would be to ALLOW a press of the CLEAR button on a FOLDER to allow removing everything in the FOLDER, of course with confirmation, which takes care of emptying the RDF.

I recorded the whole season of a TV series on CBS, which will go nameless, and almost half way through the season this summer I decided I didn't like the series, so I had to delete each individual recording. It would have been really nice to just press CLEAR while the FOLDER was selected to delete all of the individual recordings.

Of course a MOVE FOLDER (All Recordings in FOLDER) option would be handy for managing MRV (Multi-Room Viewing), and while I am wishing for management functionallity, how about Remote DELETE (delete a show on another TiVo) would really come in handy.

Of course, not everyone has FIVE TiVos to use for MRV, but I do. And I believe it is GOOD for TiVo to support the power user.

BTW, I am not complaining, these are just handy suggestions.

Of course when TiVo finally comes out with a MEDIA SERVER and remote satellite devices, we could store everything on one device and manage everything from the remote satellite devices, but that is a few years out.

(Note: Cheap Quad Processor and High Performance Storage Controller, and in the case of DirecTV no need to encode the incoming digital feed, so maybe eight simultaneous recordings on the Media Server (with its own built-in multi-switch)?)

I know for TiVo, they are just attempting to keep their head above water, but at the same time they should be THINKING BIG, and we hope they are, don't we?
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Old 07-14-2007, 09:12 AM   #57
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Exclamation It's Really Quite Amusing

I would like to reflect on the reason behind the original post, a suggestion that TiVo include an option to easily clear the "Recently Deleted" folder.

It's really quite amusing to me how the discussion developed. It was a simple observation, which obviously has merit - I wholeheartedly support it. But you would think by the naysayers posts, that somehow their lives would be turned upside down if TiVo implemented such a feature.

I'm left wondering whether these naysayers are really TiVo developers who consider such suggestions an attack on the product they work so hard to develop (just kidding, I highly doubt it). Or maybe the naysayers find there are too many options and one more will just confuse them to the point that their eyes glaze over making it hard to even watch television. Personally, I think there are just people can't support something that they themselves didn't suggest or who will take a contrarian view, no matter what the subject, which is unfortunate.

Remember, without suggestions, you wouldn't even have the "Recently Deleted" folder at the root of this discussion - which is apparently a big hit with everyone having a TiVo.

Justy a thought - you naysayers know your true motivation.
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Old 07-14-2007, 10:11 AM   #58
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As has been said before, adding this feature will do nothing but make the user THINK his HD has been "cleaned".
Adding useless features to a hardware limited device will only slow it down even more.
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Old 07-14-2007, 11:31 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve614
As has been said before, adding this feature will do nothing but make the user THINK his HD has been "cleaned".
Adding useless features to a hardware limited device will only slow it down even more.

I guess that struck a nerve - sorry.

It's likely just a small modification to the TiVo application software. And by the way, a TiVo is not a coffee pot, it's actually a real computer, complete with a real operating system. You could add any feature to it like upgrading to the new Quicken because there are new features. And really, most of what has been stated so far is conjecture on the part of those making the statements (including myself). I'm not sure how many people who posted are intimately familiar with the software installed on TiVo (as in employed by TiVo and actually maintaint he software). And regardless of what some "expert" has stated, if you truly remove the program, the hard drive IS cleaner. It's programs that have been moved to the "Recently Deleted" folder that are reall NOT removed, making the user THINK they were removed.

You really sound like you have a dog in the race - like somehow you will be diminished personally if everyone doesn't agree with you. The suggestion is out there for TiVo to consider.

Last edited by rlares : 07-14-2007 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 07-14-2007, 12:39 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeckner
BTW, I am not complaining, these are just handy suggestions.
Good suggestions, all of them. Have you gone to the link in my sig and told Tivo about them directly?

I've proposed something like that, and maybe if enough people actually suggest it directly to Tivo, they'd work on implementing it.
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