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Old 01-07-2006, 10:37 AM   #1
tvsoda
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Is there any Tivo that does not require a monthly fee?

Is there a stripped down Tivo that does the basic recording, but that does not require a monthly fee. I'm not asking for a Tivo that is full service, but a VCR digital recorder.

I'm not looking for something to search for shows or that has a web interface. I am looking for something I can tell to record 3-3:30 M-F, for example. I am looking for the most basic digital recorder on the market.
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Old 01-07-2006, 10:42 AM   #2
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What you are talking about is "TiVo Basic". It's a very basic level of service (limited guide data, no advanced TiVo features) that you get free with certain Series 2 third party TiVos: mostly the Pioneer and Toshiba DVD Recorders, IIRC. If you buy one of these units they come with TiVo Basic and you can upgrade later to the full TiVo service if you want to.

Of course, if you experienced the full TiVo service and what it can do, you wouldn't put up with just TiVo Basic for very long.
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Old 01-07-2006, 11:04 AM   #3
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also, if you really do want something that basic, look at other DVRs that aren't TiVo. No need to limit your self to TiVo in a case like this.
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Old 01-07-2006, 11:05 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmdeane
What you are talking about is "TiVo Basic". It's a very basic level of service (limited guide data, no advanced TiVo features) that you get free with certain Series 2 third party TiVos: mostly the Pioneer and Toshiba DVD Recorders, IIRC. If you buy one of these units they come with TiVo Basic and you can upgrade later to the full TiVo service if you want to.

Of course, if you experienced the full TiVo service and what it can do, you wouldn't put up with just TiVo Basic for very long.
Thanks for the info.

I am looking for the cheapest way to replace a VCR. I hate monthly fees. I was thinking about a DVD recorder, I saw some without tivo servie. I think I would preffer a hard drive, so I don't have to switch DVD's or look for what I recorded. I would like a list of recorded programs to select what I want to play.

Why doesn't Tivo offer basic service for their boxes? There must be other people like me who only want a basic recorder.
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Old 01-07-2006, 11:12 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by tvsoda
TWhy doesn't Tivo offer basic service for their boxes? There must be other people like me who only want a basic recorder.

Well, they do, as you found out. But TiVo finds that there is value in offering a higher level of service and they want to make some money, so they offer that service and charge for it.
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Old 01-07-2006, 11:13 AM   #6
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I was searching other thread to see what people wrote, and in one TiVoEvan74 suggested a Toshiba SD-H400. Does anyone know anything about this unit? Does it require a phone line to work?
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Old 01-07-2006, 12:02 PM   #7
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Dang, I was reading the reviews of the toshiba at epinions, and it is just what I am looking for. But none of the stores sell it. Anyone know where to pick one up? I'd preffer a real store to an internet store.
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Old 01-07-2006, 12:26 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvsoda
Thanks for the info.

Why doesn't Tivo offer basic service for their boxes? There must be other people like me who only want a basic recorder.

They actually used to. The original Series 1 TiVo's were able to manually record without TiVo service. TiVo took that functionality away.

It wasn't that they felt that there was a high value in their service so they decided to charge for it. It was more like they discovered that there were too many people who did not find value in their service and were using their hardware as a digital VCR for manual recordings and bypassing the service.

Their business model dictates that they subsidize the hardware and as customers were finding the hardware useful without the service, they wrote the code to disable that ability.
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Old 01-07-2006, 01:25 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvsoda
Why doesn't Tivo offer basic service for their boxes? There must be other people like me who only want a basic recorder.
TiVo has to make money somehow. The boxes are sold at a loss or at cost. So TiVo can only make money by subscriptions. Or eventually by advertising.

Note that you don't have to pay monthly subscription if you buy a lifetime subscription (lifetime of the box, that is). This costs more short term, but pays for itself long term.

TiVo really is much more than just a digital VCR. It does so much more it really changes the way you watch TV. I would never have bought a TiVo if it were just a digital VCR; I hate VCRs and refuse to use them except when I absolutely have to. They are far too much of a chore. Replacing a VCR with its digital equivalent is not really much of an improvement.

However if one of the TiVo Basic DVD recorders isn't to your liking or you can't find one, there are other hard disk DVD recorders out there that will function similarly.
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Old 01-07-2006, 01:39 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmdeane
Replacing a VCR with its digital equivalent is not really much of an improvement.
There's one point I would dispute. I've used a S1 SA TiVo unsubbed and given the fact that there were no tapes to cue up or rewind, I'd say it was a pretty significant improvement. However, I only used it for a couple of over-the-air stations. If someone were using it for a cable or satellite lineup, it would be more than a handful to coordinate. The fact that the recordings aren't labeled doesn't help.

There's a huge difference between TiVo with a subscription and without, but to say a DVR unsubbed isn't much of an improvement isn't entirely accurate to someone who has used one.
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Old 01-07-2006, 01:50 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by bidger
There's one point I would dispute. I've used a S1 SA TiVo unsubbed and given the fact that there were no tapes to cue up or rewind, I'd say it was a pretty significant improvement. However, I only used it for a couple of over-the-air stations. If someone were using it for a cable or satellite lineup, it would be more than a handful to coordinate. The fact that the recordings aren't labeled doesn't help.
Basic Tivo won't label the recordings?
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Old 01-07-2006, 01:54 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by tvsoda
Basic Tivo won't label the recordings?
"TiVo Basic" and an unsubbed S1 are two different things.
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Old 01-07-2006, 02:49 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bidger
There's one point I would dispute. I've used a S1 SA TiVo unsubbed and given the fact that there were no tapes to cue up or rewind, I'd say it was a pretty significant improvement. However, I only used it for a couple of over-the-air stations. If someone were using it for a cable or satellite lineup, it would be more than a handful to coordinate. The fact that the recordings aren't labeled doesn't help.

There's a huge difference between TiVo with a subscription and without, but to say a DVR unsubbed isn't much of an improvement isn't entirely accurate to someone who has used one.
Actually you sound like you agree with me. You've just listed many of the reasons why a digital VCR isn't much of an improvement over a VCR, apart from not having to deal with tapes. It was never the tapes that was the heart of what was wrong with the VCR, IMO. It was the chore of having to manually find each upcoming show you wanted to record, and manually setting up the VCR to record. Eliminating the tapes doesn't do anything significant to eliminate this hassle.

I do not want to be bothered once or twice a week or more to have to remember to set up new recordings. Invariably I would forget, or the show's schedule would change, and I would miss things I wanted to record. These boxes are basically a PC that records TV; there's no reason why they can't be intelligent enough to "set it and forget it" and that's what TiVo does which a simple "digital VCR" cannot do. I suppose it depends on whether you have money to spend, or time to spend: subscription-free digital recorders are only "free" if your time is of no value to you.
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Old 01-07-2006, 03:11 PM   #14
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No, actually he stated that he disagrees with you. You both have the same gripe about it, but you obviously give that gripe more weight
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Old 01-07-2006, 03:37 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvsoda
I was searching other thread to see what people wrote, and in one TiVoEvan74 suggested a Toshiba SD-H400. Does anyone know anything about this unit? Does it require a phone line to work?
One of my TiVo's is the SD-H400... It's pretty cool because it acts as your TiVo and DVD player. The DVD menus/control aren't as nice as some other TiVo's but it is progressive scan and gets the job done. Oh yeah, TiVo basic. I think these are going for about $150ish on ebay these days.

You'll need a phone line to set it up if it doesn't come with the most recent software. Once configured, you can use a network connection.
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Old 01-07-2006, 08:03 PM   #16
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dmdeane, the majority of the recording I did with the unsubbed TiVo were repeat manual recordings, ones that I set once, then forget about. Like I said, pretty much 2 channels, not a lot of primetime, so it was manageable.
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Old 01-07-2006, 11:20 PM   #17
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I hate monthly fees.
I do too. Luckily, Tivo offers a one-time lifetime sub. Has already more than paid for itself for me.

Tivo without a sub is kinda pointless....
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Old 01-08-2006, 12:38 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davezatz
One of my TiVo's is the SD-H400... It's pretty cool because it acts as your TiVo and DVD player. The DVD menus/control aren't as nice as some other TiVo's but it is progressive scan and gets the job done. Oh yeah, TiVo basic. I think these are going for about $150ish on ebay these days.

You'll need a phone line to set it up if it doesn't come with the most recent software. Once configured, you can use a network connection.
it will not come with the most recent software unless someone is ebaying it that way. The SD H400 is dicsontinued so you will not find it in a brick and mortar store but will have to look online.

I have one in my bonus room for the kids now and pay the monthly sub on it as I find the added benefit of TiVo service a great benefit for my kids especially. They hear of a show by name, ask me if it is an alright show for them to watch and then go plug it into the TiVo find by name and set the recording to that one or a season pass.


and yes TiVo Basic will label the recording with the show name as it gets 3 days of guide data that it uses for info.
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Old 01-09-2006, 03:51 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bidger
dmdeane, the majority of the recording I did with the unsubbed TiVo were repeat manual recordings, ones that I set once, then forget about. Like I said, pretty much 2 channels, not a lot of primetime, so it was manageable.
So yours is not a typical example, then. Most people watch more than 2 channels, and their favorite shows aren't always on the most stable of schedules.

This is why, btw, people hated the VCR and used it to play back rented VHS tapes but not to record their TV shows: it wasn't worth the hassle. And no, it wasn't really the tapes that was the problem. Back in the early days of this forum we had some refugees from the old Video Guide system (bought and killed by Gemstar, IIRC). This was sort of like a pre-TiVo, non-digital PVR that got its guide data wirelessly and automatically recorded your TV shows for you to VHS tape. You still had to change tapes, but the horrendous chore of having to keep track of multiple TV shows on multiple channels at multiple times (which kept changing) was eliminated. Result: the best thing to happen to TV watching prior to TiVo.

Anyway, since the number of people who only watch only a couple of TV shows on only two channels is too small a market to bother going after (especially since any profit would only be from razor-thin margins from selling commoditized hardware), it's not surprising that we haven't seen the emergence of a subscription-free, pure DVR (as opposed to combo devices like hard-disk/DVD recorders). There's really no way to make money in such a market. The cable and satellite companies can afford to subsidize the cost to draw in subscribers, but TiVo has to look, long term, to possible content-personalized advertising based revenues to survive (a la the Google advertising model) and to eventually replace subscription revenues. Until then, don't expect a lot of options when looking for subscription-free DVRs. The piper has to be paid, one way or another.
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Old 01-09-2006, 06:09 AM   #20
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Your arguments are good dmdeane, but if there were really so few people that wanted to use their TiVo that way then why did TiVo disable that functionality when they had already coded it in? They, as a course of business, apparently came to the same conclusion as you have initially but then made the investment of time and programming to change their minds.
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Old 01-09-2006, 08:50 AM   #21
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Your arguments are good dmdeane, but if there were really so few people that wanted to use their TiVo that way then why did TiVo disable that functionality when they had already coded it in?
Well, the obvious is they wanted to ensure subscription revenue.

I would submit, an even more likely reason - there are probably more than enough cheap people who wouldn't pay for the full service and then badmouth that "Tivo" thing as being a complete and total piece of crap. Never mind they aren't getting the full Tivo experience, it still says Tivo on the outside of the box.

I don't blame them for dropping a cheap feature that an extreme minority of users would probably use, but could stand to severely dilute and confuse their brand. Want manual recordings with no fee's? As others pointed out there are plenty of DVD recorders with hard drives that will do exactly what you want.
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Old 01-09-2006, 09:11 AM   #22
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Don't get me wrong DocNo, I don't blame them either. We also agree that it is to ensure sub revenue.

My point was that initially TiVo must have felt the same way as dmdeane, that nobody would want to use it that way. As such, they had those features enabled. That was their strategy. Then, something changed. People who were laready conditioned to using a VCR, found this to be a better alternative and were using it that way. So TiVo went to the expense to reverse their original decision and take those features away.

I'm in agreement with their decision. I just think that we, as TiVo users, are being myopic when we poo poo the idea that others would be perfectly happy using it as a digital VCR.
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Old 01-09-2006, 09:53 AM   #23
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I do too. Luckily, Tivo offers a one-time lifetime sub. Has already more than paid for itself for me.

Tivo without a sub is kinda pointless....
Agreed on both counts. As an added bonus, the hardware will have some intrinsic value if you ever want to sell it later.

A SA Tivo is dang near free after rebate.
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Old 01-09-2006, 11:19 AM   #24
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Did you ever look into getting a PC all-in-wonder Video cards (or any with cable input) and then getting software like Snapstream?

Then your PC is a subscription free DVR. Unfortunately you can't do much else on it while it is recording.
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Old 01-09-2006, 11:42 AM   #25
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Quote:
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So yours is not a typical example, then. Most people watch more than 2 channels, and their favorite shows aren't always on the most stable of schedules.

This is why, btw, people hated the VCR and used it to play back rented VHS tapes but not to record their TV shows: it wasn't worth the hassle.
Re. the first sentence I admitted as much in my first post and the restated it when you asked me. Yes, it's atypical, but for anyone who using OTA for a handful of stations, IOW not paying for TV, what would their motivation be to pay for a DVR if they can find a solution for free? I used an open box TiVo with just the remote that was used for demo at the local WalMart on closeout for $50 for the unsubbed recordings, but I've also used two Lifetime subbed TiVos and yes, of course the subbed units are easier to use and offer more features. Some folks don't care about those features. I turn off Suggestions on every TiVo box I activate. Plus, I prefer the integrated boxes. When the S3 TiVo premieres, I can envision the posts here: "I never knew how important dual tuners were!", "I can record and watch in HD!", "I don't have to hook it up to a cable box to watch HBO!". Peripheral stuff is nice, but when the people who have been waiting for the hardware features have what they want, they're not going to be listening to "Live365" all that much.

I'm also atypical as far as your VCR analogy goes. I owned very few prerecorded VHS tapes and used my Magnavox for recording TV programs that I would miss when I was working 2nd and 3rd shift. It was very easy to program and I know that because I did program someone else's VCR, Sanyo, and it was a nightmare. I also found the tapes to be a pita, not just because of having to cue and rewind, but because of price. DVD-R is a pittance compared to what I used to have to shell out for VHS blanks. Using the VCR for archiving the way I did made me a prime candidate for TiVo. After I saw the promo on DirecTV, I couldn't get one fast enough.
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Old 01-09-2006, 12:05 PM   #26
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I'm surprised no one has pointed out that every TIVo doesn't require a monthly fee... if you buy a lifetime subscription, and consider that to be part of the cost of the box. As has been pointed out, TiVo Inc. has to make money somehow. If you don't like that it's a recurring cost, they offer you the other option too.
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Old 01-09-2006, 03:54 PM   #27
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I'm surprised no one has pointed out that every TIVo doesn't require a monthly fee... if you buy a lifetime subscription, and consider that to be part of the cost of the box. As has been pointed out, TiVo Inc. has to make money somehow. If you don't like that it's a recurring cost, they offer you the other option too.
I've been doing some reading, and the lifetime subscription is misleading. How many people paid for a lifetime subscription on a unit that became obsolete, and were forced to buy a new unit and pay a new subscription fee.
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Old 01-09-2006, 04:13 PM   #28
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No one I know. My friends have 9 TiVos on which they bought lifetime at least 5 and half years ago and all are doing fine. (Plus there are some newer ones.) Plus, the current ebay value of our ancient lifetime services hover around something close to what we paid, so if/when any of us do upgrade, the cost for 5-6 or more years of service will be pretty close to nothing per month. I can understand how it seems misleading - before you allow for resale, it sounds more expensive than it really is

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Old 01-09-2006, 07:28 PM   #29
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I've been doing some reading, and the lifetime subscription is misleading. How many people paid for a lifetime subscription on a unit that became obsolete, and were forced to buy a new unit and pay a new subscription fee.
How is it misleading? My original 14 hour Phillips Tivo is chugging along just fine, thank you.

To me, the lifetime is the biggest advantage of the Tivo! Monthly fees SUCK! You NEVER quit paying them - why do you think all these companies are trying to herd everything in that direction? Because it's a good deal for us? Ha!

My first Tivo paid for it's lifetime in a little over a year (they were $150 back then). Heck, my second lifetime on my second Tivo pays for itself in two months vs. paying a monthly fee forever. Now that they offer a discount for a second and beyond Tivo, there is less an incentive... partly because I am now on my third Tivo and at half it will take over 4 years to recoup the cost, and partly because I will probably get an S3 if/when they ship and at that point I really won't need four tuners recording stuff. Dunno, I still may hedge and put a lifetime on it. If I do decide to get rid of it, right now I can easily recover it by selling it on ebay.

But honestly, I really am shocked by people who think lifetime is a bad deal - all you have to do is crunch some numbers and you will see that the monthly is the TERRIBLE deal over the long run. Great for Tivo shareholders, but bad for me the individual.

If you couldn't replace the hard drive in Tivo as easily as you could, that would dramatically shift the value proposition - but you can, so it's trivial to keep a tivo running pretty much forever (unless you fry something - all my Tivo's are plugged into UPS's...)
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Old 01-09-2006, 09:02 PM   #30
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Actually you sound like you agree with me. You've just listed many of the reasons why a digital VCR isn't much of an improvement over a VCR, apart from not having to deal with tapes.
I say this as someone with two lifetime Tivos (though admittedly one was a 'luck' purchase off of eBay, I didn't expect it to have lifetime), and am drooling for the S3..

I completely disagree with that statement. Just the fact that with a "digital VCR" (sic) you can watch something previously recorded while recording is a HUUUGE step over an actual VCR. (I usually had one VCR more than I needed to record, so I could watch something previously recorded while still recording, except during sweeps when there were LOTS of things on at the same time).

Heck, even when using my non-Tivo hard-drive/DVD recorder with just DVDs (yes, due to a fault in it -- I'd love a Tivo/DVD recorder where I could edit the recordings), it's still better than videotapes even though I have a pile of unlabelled DVDs..

Even with Tivos, I still know when the shows I want are on..
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